Project M Social Thread Gold

[Brim]

Stop that.
Melee is an amazing game even with PM around. While PM beats Melee in terms of balance, I will say Melee has a superior feel (although that's not PM's fault, it's just an engine issue. This is also pure opinion). They are both amazing and love them both for different reasons. Neither is superior.

Absolutely this.

 

[Warsaint777]

Melee gave me childhood scars from never being able to compete with people using Mewtwo. I had to upgrade to Dorf which was cool for a while but he just couldn't get any approach on sheiks and marths. I wound up cursing the game for being so well made but so imbalanced. It was like a cruel joke to me. But such is life.

 

[shairn]

I hate wavedashing lol cuz I can hardly do it. But Ganon didn't require it as much. I think. Also what's teathering?

Ganon is pretty reliant on wavelanding on platforms IIRC to help his mobility, since his wavedash is actually pretty good.

Tethering is using the z button in the air with characters who have chain-like grabs, namely Link, young/toon link, Samus, Lucas, Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur. In Melee (Link, Young Link, Samus) tethers go straight forward and hook onto any part of a wall, where a character can just dangle there and snap up to jump and help their recovery while in Brawl, PM and Smash 4 tethers snap directly to the ledge.

 

[Warsaint777]

Oh, I didn't think they'd give a general term in melee for a thing that only 3 characters have. Weird.

 

[shairn]

There's a plethora of terms for stuff only found on one character

You should see Squirtle techs

 

[Warsaint777]

Haha is there like a fking glossary of weird squirtle-exclusive shenanigans?

 

[HyperrCrow]

Oh, I didn't think they'd give a general term in melee for a thing that only 3 characters have. Weird.

It'd be weird not to name it.
That's like saying Super Wavedash should go unnamed because only Samus can do it.

 

[shairn]

Check out their advanced tech thread, you can find gems like "itemplane" and "hydroplane jump-cancelled grab".

 

[Warsaint777]

Samus has a SUPER wavedash? I thought somehow Luigi had the craziest wding cuz of his moonwalky butterboots lol.

Btw how do I quote people directly with the little orange up arrow included and whatnot?

 

[standardtoaster]

Click the reply button on their post in the bottom right.

 

[shairn]

Press "reply" On the bottom right under their post.

Samus' SWD is technically not a wavedash, but she slides around so whatever.

 

[KayB]

Real talk Brawl has some disgustingly terrible sfx compared to Melee. Ex: Ice Climbers hammers when they make impact.

 

[himemiya]

Don't need to play melee competitively to keep up with the scene.

You can learn a lot watching top players, plus it's like any other sport: If you can't be the best, you can still enjoy watching the best play just to see what it's like. It's not like you can't do both, either.

It would be fine if the streams didn't consist of generic top tiers all the ****ing time.

 

[Warsaint777]

Click the reply button on their post in the bottom right.

Thank you much, One Who Moderates. :D

So I have this crazy question about Nintendo patents and smash and the like-- Suppose something crazy happens and somehow Nintendo gets legal right to just shut down PM or perhaps put so much pressure on it being publicized that its not worth it, etc. My question is, could the PM backroom create a new smash inspired game from the ground up, using the exact same concepts, but just making up their own characters and stages (just like, paladin, boxer, warlock, dragon, cowboy, whatever)? Or does Nintendo actually have a patent on the very CONCEPT of combining damage-to-knockback accumulation on floating platform you fight to stay on? What I'm asking is, would they get sued for making a game EXACTLY like smash brothers, but NOTHING IN IT from anything in Nintendo?

It would be fine if the streams didn't consist of generic top tiers all the ****ing time.

Omg SO MUCH CONCUR. Not even creepin on your mysterious claims of femalehood right now.

 

[himemiya]

Thank you much, One Who Moderates. :D
Omg SO MUCH CONCUR. Not even creepin on your mysterious claims of femalehood right now.

 

[Warsaint777]

If it's sheik, marth, or fox/falco I always move on to another stream.

edit: Holy crap standardtoaster that mod does work on PM for realsies??

 

[KayB]

I don't mind watching top tiers that much, it really matters how well they play and how much I care about each player.

Like watching the Big Five duke it out is always amazing because they always do extremely impressive stuff against each other, and you always know that all of them have fierce rivalries with the other so there are a lot of emotions in each match.

Same with watching players right under that threshold. PewPewU vs Hax was an extremely high-leveled game, and it's very interesting to see how players adapted and triumphed as the set went on.

PPMD vs Remen was entertaining because Remen taking a game off PPMD was a big deal to Remen's reputation as a player.

Hax vs Leffen was entertaining because they were rivals, and they are arguably at the same skill level.

Aisengobay vs Fiction, even though it was Fox dittos, was incredibly fun to watch because it was an upset from one side, and he had an unorthodox style of playing Fox.

M2K vs Shiz, Fiction vs Animal, KDJ vs M2K, Lovage vs Javi, Javi vs PPMD, PewPewU vs Silent Wolf, Kels vs M2K, Hax vs Shroomed, KirbyKaze vs Weon-X...

I could go on about amazing sets between top tiers that are incredibly fun to watch. Anybody who skips matches simply because they see what characters are on the screen can seriously be missing out a lot.

 

[Warsaint777]

i hope someone answers my question eventually... >_>;

 

[Comeback Kid]

Thank you much, One Who Moderates. :D
What I'm asking is, would they get sued for making a game EXACTLY like smash brothers, but NOTHING IN IT from anything in Nintendo?

You can't copyright the mechanics of gameplay for software licenses, unless code from the game was stolen to clone the engine. Only character design and artwork can be trademarked.

edit: Holy crap standardtoaster that mod does work on PM for realsies??

He's been a mod for like over a month, and a developer for quite a few years.

Stay humble Toast.

 

[GP&B]

Real talk Brawl has some disgustingly terrible sfx compared to Melee. Ex: Ice Climbers hammers when they make impact.

Yooo, I'm placing Pikachu and ZSS in bottom tier until the electric SFX are replaced with something less awful and obnoxious.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

Real talk Brawl has some disgustingly terrible sfx compared to Melee. Ex: Ice Climbers hammers when they make impact.

Those jelly hammers.

 

[Soft Serve]

Top tiers have more/better options by definition. Its really hard for the highest level of a game to exist without that sort of play. Just look at how Amsa got bodied by the best of 5 rule-set at MLG. Yoshi has tons of cool options, but a lot of them are gimmicks when applied in real time situations. Amsa could only get so far with Parry shenanigans and his amazing movement. The Westballz/amsa set is THE example of this. Adaptation on westballz's part showed a lot of what Amsa does to just get an opening as ineffective/risky.

Its more of a problem of low-tiers having ineffective options than good characters being "too op." Hating on top tiers just because they are good is degenerate towards high level play, because other than a few instances (Armada's Yl for example) the better the character = the better/larger the amount of options = more flexibility and higher level play.

Its not so much of a problem in PM because even bad characters have decent options. But hating on Melee because most of the cast in unviable is stupid, because top play exists in a world where those characters pretty much don't exist.

 

[Warsaint777]

Top tiers have more/better options by definition. Its really hard for the highest level of a game to exist without that sort of play. Just look at how Amsa got bodied by the best of 5 rule-set at MLG. Yoshi has tons of cool options, but a lot of them are gimmicks when applied in real time situations. Amsa could only get so far with Parry shenanigans and his amazing movement. The Westballz/amsa set is THE example of this. Adaptation on westballz's part showed a lot of what Amsa does to just get an opening as ineffective/risky.

Its more of a problem of low-tiers having ineffective options than good characters being "too op." Hating on top tiers just because they are good is degenerate towards high level play, because other than a few instances (Armada's Yl for example) the better the character = the better/larger the amount of options = more flexibility and higher level play.

Its not so much of a problem in PM because even bad characters have decent options. But hating on Melee because most of the cast in unviable is stupid, because top play exists in a world where those characters pretty much don't exist.

Yeah I just have to respectfully disagree with all of that.

 

[KayB]

^See right here is a huge pet peeve of mine. If someone calls you out by disagreeing with your opinion and all, that's fine. But someone stopping by, seeing your opinion, saying they disagree, and just leaving without saying why they disagree and why they think your opinion is wrong is annoying as hell.

/opinions

 

[Comeback Kid]

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that the top tier characters don't have good options in Melee, everyone is equal from a technical standpoint.

Guess what, the game is balanced by definition but it would suck and lack the depth that has kept the game going strong all these years. Sure it is better if everyone has good options that make them competitively viable like in Project M, but Melee is better for having those select few characters being so good.

Project M balances around them for a reason, being powerful is fun in a game to both watch and play.

 

[Warsaint777]

^See right here is a pet peeve of mine. If someone calls you out by disagreeing with your opinion and all, that's fine. But someone stops by, sees your opinion, says they disagree, and just leaves without saying why they disagree and why they think your opinion is wrong is annoying as hell.

/opinions

Ugh man I know that's annoying but I JUST got done having to deal with taht EXACT issue. I made all these valid points and backed them up logically and literally THREE PEOPLE in a ROW dropped jerkoff one-liners just suggesting I'm wrong and nothing else.

That's no excuse for what I did just now but I'm sayin. Look I'm tired man. Look FINE I FIRMLY BELIEVE the gross imbalance of Melee makes it objectively a bad game and that PM was truly its salvation. Everyone can call me crazy for that I don't care. There's my two cents everybody hates. I could go into it deeper and I will. At not 3:10 in the morning.

 

[DrinkingFood]

So olimar has a chaingrab infinite... except it's only on my Wii.
His white pikmin backthrow is the third thing I've found on my wii to be crazily glitched. Instead of throwing them, the pikmin grounded-grab releases them facing away olimar, so they slide backwards towards him. With way more than enough time to regrab them, among other things such as fsmash for a finisher, before they can even shield, let alone spot dodge.
@ standardtoaster @Monk @somebodywithtechnicalknowledge, this is the third crazy glitch I've had on my Wii, it's probably here to stay too. The other two were Link's crazy jab hitboxes, being twice bowser's radius and able to hit opponents 3 times farther away from, above, and behind link than it should; and ZSS's moonjump down-b, taking her crazy far above the stage just by pressing down-b.
I've tried reformatting and cleaning both cards I own, they are different brands, and one is a sandisk which is supposed to be the most compatible. Nothing has worked. I've also tried downloading different brawl ISOs, since I USB load. The glitches haven't gone away, and on top of it, I get lots of freezes, seemingly at random, making my wii unsuitable for tourney play. It also freezes a lot in melee and a few other games I USB load (not all though). Any clue what might cause all this and if it can be fixed?

 

[Comeback Kid]

Put up some videos of it happening Drinking, that sounds weird.

 

[Soft Serve]

I'd love to talk more about how imbalance in a game doesn't make a game bad, specifically in Melee where the balance within the top 4-6 character is relatively close. I don't think the discussion would go anywhere at all though.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No recording device, CRT is too bright for regular camera

 

[Warsaint777]

I'd love to talk more about how imbalance in a game doesn't make a game bad, specifically in Melee where the balance within the top 4-6 character is relatively close. I don't think the discussion would go anywhere at all though.

You're probably right. I'm pretty stubborn. That and I've just gotten in this argument over and over for a decade it's always the same and lands on what I think makes a game good differs from what another person might.

 

[standardtoaster]

Delete your save file and that will probably fix most if not all of your issues

 

[Warsaint777]

Gawd I'm bored. Can't sleep. Is it 3:30a for anyone else around here? I have some anime to watch but I'm too lazy to read subtitles. : /

 

[Vashimus]

I'd love to talk more about how imbalance in a game doesn't make a game bad, specifically in Melee where the balance within the top 4-6 character is relatively close. I don't think the discussion would go anywhere at all though.

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-522#post-16669660

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-522#post-16669759

 

[Warsaint777]

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-social-thread-v3-02.339825/page-522#post-16669660

I'm confused what is the relevance of that link.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Delete your save file and that will probably fix most if not all of your issues

Are you sure? Even freezing of other games? That doesn't sound right. If it just fixed freezing for PM tho i'd be super happy

 

[Vashimus]

I'm confused what is the relevance of that link.

They're arguments I made for exactly that topic months ago.

Probably because they know competitive Melee would actually be a worse game when you take the top tiers out of the picture. Think about it: a lot of what makes Melee interesting and deep at high levels is what the top tiers bring to the table. Take them out then then what makes Melee fast and exciting to watch at high levels is gone. If you think about it, a lot of what makes fighting games interesting usually comes from what the best characters in the game can do - whether or not the developers intended it or not. A lot of the time, high and top tiers will have strong and interesting options. Take them out and you end up with characters with options that are not as strong and just not as interesting.

It's not just Fox and Falco. Battles between even the top ten in Melee are actually much more entertaining than anything the bottom half of the cast could muster with their matchups. In Melee, Bowser vs Ness will just never be as hype as something like Marth vs Fox. Just because I believe that doesn't mean I'm okay with the character balance. I wouldn't have been playing this mod for 3 years otherwise.

3rd Strike Chun is in a similar situation (her worst is 5:5 against Yun) and the characters below her also are quite dominant, but I've never seen legitimate players cry out for low-tier tourneys or (in Brawl's case) bans. The game and it's system is interesting enough that it has survived for over a decade without any sort of balance patch, just like Melee.

In my opinion, if a game needs balance to be interesting and engaging at high level play, then that's a sign that there might be more than a few problems with the underlying game itself.

Balance is not required to have fun.

 

[Warsaint777]

Hm I see some of your points. Have you really been doing PM for 3 years now?

 

[himemiya]

Gawd I'm bored. Can't sleep. Is it 3:30a for anyone else around here? I have some anime to watch but I'm too lazy to read subtitles. : /

its only 0:46, sleep is for the weak.

 

[Warsaint777]

its only 0:46, sleep is for the weak.

Man no fair you're on the other side of the continent...