Project M Social Thread Gold

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
@Kushina43 also

this is not inherently a bad thing. it is just a thing.
Skewing balance is a bad thing. Characters should not have an inherent advantage over other characters by virtue of a mechanic that doesn't actually need to exist.

The problem inherent with edgehogging is not related to edgeguarding - being able to prevent your opponent from getting back to the stage should be something that's a part of the game, else there'd be no point to there even being an offstage at all. The thing is, though, edgehogging being possible is unhealthy for the game for two reasons;

1) It screws over any character that doesn't have reliable mixups in their recovery. Just going by Melee alone, every high tier (and most of the mid tier) characters have recovery mixups (e.g Fox/Falco has his up and side specials, Sheik's up special is aimable, Jiggs can weave, Peach has float and up special, etc), so edgehogging isn't always reliable because characters have the choice to try something else that may not be covered by your edgehog. So then, why is it problematic? Because uniformly, going down the tier list, characters have less and less ways to deal with edgehogging - starting with E tier (and skipping Mario), Ganondorf only has his up special. Link and Young Link have wall grapples, but they're so slow and predictable that most of the high tier characters can punish them hard for trying it. Donkey Kong's up special barely goes upwards. Et cetera.

Most of these characters can supposedly circumvent this weakness by going to the stage, but in most cases, the problem ends up being that going to the stage is asking to be punished by a higher tier character - half of the characters in Melee being nearly unplayable in the current metagame is because of the Hobson's choice of [A: get edgehogged, or B: get gimped/spiked/Fox up smashed/etc.]. And even if you think that's not necessarily a bad thing, because not every character is going to be viable in a fighting game, the real problem is;

2) Similarly to l-canceling, the mechanic doesn't actually add any reasonable amount of interesting depth to the game by existing. You always do it. Is your opponent offstage? Grab the ledge. They're either going to miss their recovery as a result, or have to go onto the stage, which is likely going to be so slow that you get an additional punish on them, for trying the only action they could in that situation. It's not interesting, it's certainly not exciting, and it especially doesn't take any skill (some people might say at this point that you need to time edgehog correctly for invincibility frames, but that's reaching) - so, if given the opportunity to make it better, why would anyone choose to keep it? And here's the thing - while there's no widely accepted tier list, I posit that every character in PM3.6 that can't reliably deal with edgehogging is one of the less good characters. A quick google search for 'pm 3.6 tier list' gives me Junebug's tier list, in which he says that the bottom tier characters are Ness (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Dedede (no recovery mixup, easily punished up special), Ice Climbers (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Olimar (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Zelda (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Donkey Kong (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Charizard (notably does have recovery mixups, but is just, you know, terrible) and Bowser (no recovery mixup, easiest character to gimp in the game). Even in the game that tried to re-balance everyone and make everyone viable, the existence of edgehogging arguably puts eight (or more!) characters at a significant disadvantage, for no reason (I can't even say "bcuz Maylay", because edgehogging was still a thing in Brawl)!
 
Last edited:

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,023
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
@Kushina43 also



Skewing balance is a bad thing. Characters should not have an inherent advantage over other characters by virtue of a mechanic that doesn't actually need to exist.

The problem inherent with edgehogging is not related to edgeguarding - being able to prevent your opponent from getting back to the stage should be something that's a part of the game, else there'd be no point to there even being an offstage at all. The thing is, though, edgehogging being possible is unhealthy for the game for two reasons;

1) It screws over any character that doesn't have reliable mixups in their recovery. Just going by Melee alone, every high tier (and most of the mid tier) characters have recovery mixups (e.g Fox/Falco has his up and side specials, Sheik's up special is aimable, Jiggs can weave, Peach has float and up special, etc), so edgehogging isn't always reliable because characters have the choice to try something else that may not be covered by your edgehog. So then, why is it problematic? Because uniformly, going down the tier list, characters have less and less ways to deal with edgehogging - starting with E tier (and skipping Mario), Ganondorf only has his up special. Link and Young Link have wall grapples, but they're so slow and predictable that most of the high tier characters can punish them hard for trying it. Donkey Kong's up special barely goes upwards. Et cetera.

Most of these characters can supposedly circumvent this weakness by going to the stage, but in most cases, the problem ends up being that going to the stage is asking to be punished by a higher tier character - half of the characters in Melee being nearly unplayable in the current metagame is because of the Hobson's choice of [A: get edgehogged, or B: get gimped/spiked/Fox up smashed/etc.]. And even if you think that's not necessarily a bad thing, because not every character is going to be viable in a fighting game, the real problem is;

2) Similarly to l-canceling, the mechanic doesn't actually add any reasonable amount of interesting depth to the game by existing. You always do it. Is your opponent offstage? Grab the ledge. They're either going to miss their recovery as a result, or have to go onto the stage, which is likely going to be so slow that you get an additional punish on them, for trying the only action they could in that situation. It's not interesting, it's certainly not exciting, and it especially doesn't take any skill (some people might say at this point that you need to time edgehog correctly for invincibility frames, but that's reaching) - so, if given the opportunity to make it better, why would anyone choose to keep it? And here's the thing - while there's no widely accepted tier list, I posit that every character in PM3.6 that can't reliably deal with edgehogging is one of the less good characters. A quick google search for 'pm 3.6 tier list' gives me Junebug's tier list, in which he says that the bottom tier characters are Ness (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Dedede (no recovery mixup, easily punished up special), Ice Climbers (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Olimar (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Zelda (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Donkey Kong (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Charizard (notably does have recovery mixups, but is just, you know, terrible) and Bowser (no recovery mixup, easiest character to gimp in the game). Even in the game that tried to re-balance everyone and make everyone viable, the existence of edgehogging arguably puts eight (or more!) characters at a significant disadvantage, for no reason (I can't even say "bcuz Maylay", because edgehogging was still a thing in Brawl)!

These issues lie with the characters, but not with the concept of edgeguarding itself.

Point 1 is solved by giving characters reliable recovery mix ups. You point out why these mechanics are flaws by using flaws characters to prove your point.

It's just a mechanic that is not inherently bad or good.

Point 2 you start off by saying it doesnt add any interesting depth, but that's a completely subjective opinion. Even in high level melee, you don't always grab the ledge against certain characters because it's not always the best option. You don't really see edgehogging in Brawl all that much because of the overall strength in recovery options and mixups that characters have in that game, as well as other issues.

If a character has so few options in regards to getting around edgehogging, isnt that a problem with the CHARACTER and not the mechanic itself?

You're basically trying to claim a mechanic is bad by using poorly designed/balanced characters as your reasoning.

The mechanic is magnifying flaws within characters, not the other way around.

And besides, skewing recoveries one way or another is a form of balance because it's mearly one aspect of a whole character that has to be balanced.

Just like how variable Health is a balancing mechanic in TFGs. I personally dont agree with it, but its still just a thing that isnt inherently bad or good.
 
Last edited:

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
If a character has so few options in regards to getting around edgehogging, isnt that a problem with the CHARACTER and not the mechanic itself?
No, because character's shouldn't uniformly have two recovery moves each just so that edgehogging can continue to exist when the mechanic isn't interesting or valuable.

The mechanic is magnifying flaws within characters, not the other way around.
These flaws only exist because of edgehogging. There's a difference between exacerbating a problem and creating one.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,023
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
No, because character's shouldn't uniformly have two recovery moves each just so that edgehogging can continue to exist when the mechanic isn't interesting or valuable.



These flaws only exist because of edgehogging. There's a difference between exacerbating a problem and creating one.
Then its the chicken and egg with us.

I feel that no mechanics are inherently good or bad and how you use them is what determines if they're "good" or "bad".

What matters is how you use your tools.

The flaws exists because they're incompatible with the mechanic, but those traits dont need to exist with the mechanic. I'm not saying that all characters need to have multiple moves for recovery just to get around edgeguarding. I did say that allowing a character to mix up there recover counters the problem with edgehogging covering "all options"

If you intentionally create a trait that conflicts with a mechanic, than that's on you as a game designer.

You make traits that are geared around mechanics; generally at least. If you gear mechanics around traits, you typically make sure they work hand in hand lol.

If you want balance, you need be aware of that.


And you can think that edgehogging is not valuable or interesting, but hey. That's fine. That's what opinions are for.
 
Last edited:

Scotch98'

Smash Champion
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,481
Location
Lewisville, Texas
3DS FC
0000-0000-0069
NNID
sC0TCh.exe
knowing that I've actually beat most of the people that are in the top 10 dfw power rankings kinda pisses me off, because I'm literally back at the same spot I was three years ago when I was rocking a nail polish gamecube controller, a broken wrist, and an mlp welovefine t-shirt

essentially the worst of the worst
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
that's like saying a screwdriver is bad.
The problem with your thought process here is that you think that every mechanic must have been designed - edgehogging is presumably not an intentional part of the game. It's telling that the first game in the series that was also developed with the mindset "people will play this game competitively", instead of just "people will play this as a fun party game", also removed edgehogging, because it ****ed with balance so much for so little in return (though Smash 4 has a host of other balance issues, of course).
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
I don't mean that it's a glitch or anything - just that, "run to the ledge before your opponent can grab it" was likely not intended to be a central part of playing the game. Recognizing that it exists didn't matter when the games didn't have a competitive focus - in fact, my whole town knew about edgehogging for years and just plain didn't do it because it was lame (people didn't start doing it often until the Melee resurgence) - and when it came time to evaluate the game in that sense, it seems like edgehogging was laid by the wayside. I don't think the timing was an accident.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,023
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
moving the goal posts. you're also acting as if we know what they were thinking when they designed edgeguarding. we dont, and shouldnt act like we do and should only be looking at its inclusion as such.

also just because they removed it in smash 4 has no grounds on what the dev team was thinking back when they were making melee.

developers are people and people can have mindset changes over the course of a decade.
 
Last edited:

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
also just because they removed it in smash 4 has no grounds on what the dev team was thinking back when they were making melee.
No, but Sakurai saying that he intentionally made Brawl in a way that was contrary to several notable aspects of Melee so that people wouldn't take it so seriously as a fighting game pretty clearly indicates that that's also not what he intended Melee to be.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,023
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
Yeah but that still doesnt mean we can take what they're thinking about Smash 4 and apply it to what they were thinking about Melee.

Just because they didnt intended Wavedashing and L-Canceling and a slew of other things to work like they did doesnt mean the same for edgehogging.

Either way; I've made my point.

In other news HMW and Phil on stream was amazing.
 
Last edited:

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,131
^ meanwhile, here's ROB being broken

EDIT: NINTENDOCOPS OH ****

edit 2: let's pause the tourney and listen to some skinny kid talk about how he likes melee

like seriously throw that little thing outta there

edit 3: "anime **** and booty, and I don't. I don't. I don't" - nebtune 2016

edit 4: honk

edit 5 : PRESS 1 TO STOP NINTENDO FROM STEALING OUR HONKS

edit 6: I asked the stream to replace the player camera with an uncomfortable closeup on nebtune and they complied
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 2, 2014
Messages
3,171
Location
Tampa, FL
3DS FC
1337-1337-1337
NNID
emptymetaphor
@Kushina43 also



Skewing balance is a bad thing. Characters should not have an inherent advantage over other characters by virtue of a mechanic that doesn't actually need to exist.

The problem inherent with edgehogging is not related to edgeguarding - being able to prevent your opponent from getting back to the stage should be something that's a part of the game, else there'd be no point to there even being an offstage at all. The thing is, though, edgehogging being possible is unhealthy for the game for two reasons;

1) It screws over any character that doesn't have reliable mixups in their recovery. Just going by Melee alone, every high tier (and most of the mid tier) characters have recovery mixups (e.g Fox/Falco has his up and side specials, Sheik's up special is aimable, Jiggs can weave, Peach has float and up special, etc), so edgehogging isn't always reliable because characters have the choice to try something else that may not be covered by your edgehog. So then, why is it problematic? Because uniformly, going down the tier list, characters have less and less ways to deal with edgehogging - starting with E tier (and skipping Mario), Ganondorf only has his up special. Link and Young Link have wall grapples, but they're so slow and predictable that most of the high tier characters can punish them hard for trying it. Donkey Kong's up special barely goes upwards. Et cetera.

Most of these characters can supposedly circumvent this weakness by going to the stage, but in most cases, the problem ends up being that going to the stage is asking to be punished by a higher tier character - half of the characters in Melee being nearly unplayable in the current metagame is because of the Hobson's choice of [A: get edgehogged, or B: get gimped/spiked/Fox up smashed/etc.]. And even if you think that's not necessarily a bad thing, because not every character is going to be viable in a fighting game, the real problem is;

2) Similarly to l-canceling, the mechanic doesn't actually add any reasonable amount of interesting depth to the game by existing. You always do it. Is your opponent offstage? Grab the ledge. They're either going to miss their recovery as a result, or have to go onto the stage, which is likely going to be so slow that you get an additional punish on them, for trying the only action they could in that situation. It's not interesting, it's certainly not exciting, and it especially doesn't take any skill (some people might say at this point that you need to time edgehog correctly for invincibility frames, but that's reaching) - so, if given the opportunity to make it better, why would anyone choose to keep it? And here's the thing - while there's no widely accepted tier list, I posit that every character in PM3.6 that can't reliably deal with edgehogging is one of the less good characters. A quick google search for 'pm 3.6 tier list' gives me Junebug's tier list, in which he says that the bottom tier characters are Ness (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Dedede (no recovery mixup, easily punished up special), Ice Climbers (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Olimar (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Zelda (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Donkey Kong (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Charizard (notably does have recovery mixups, but is just, you know, terrible) and Bowser (no recovery mixup, easiest character to gimp in the game). Even in the game that tried to re-balance everyone and make everyone viable, the existence of edgehogging arguably puts eight (or more!) characters at a significant disadvantage, for no reason (I can't even say "bcuz Maylay", because edgehogging was still a thing in Brawl)!
you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand lmao. ICs have one of the best recoveries in the game
 

Rawkobo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
565
Bleck Bleck I would say it'd be interesting to see Sm4sh edge mechanics but without the massive magnet hands a large amount of the recovers in the game have. In other words, keep most (some would likely require tweaking to balance with the mechanic change) ledgegrab boxes the same but allow for the takeover.

As long as it doesn't distort the game via unfair punishes on ledgesteal, I don't see a huge issue with it. But there are a lot of factors to consider, and as is, I don't especially mind edgehogging because it serves a purpose and doing it actually affects the game.
 

Leafeon

Verdant Pokémon
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
1,276
Location
Someplace in the woods
so are we like related now?


it should only take me a couple weeks to figure out the Best (tm) Subway(tm) Sandwich possible. tuna/american and egg/steak/pepper jack are the current leaders.
I put literally everything except for meat, egg, and jalapenos on the sandwich and just put on subway vinagrette...
not even kidding
toasted italian herbs and cheese bread
I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong
but then again I'm like, 5% american based on my food tastes so
 

Rawkobo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
565
I'm kind of boring when it comes to Subway, but what I usually end up getting is some form of:

Oven Roasted Chicken OR Steak and Cheese
Either Italian Herbs + Cheese OR Flatbread, Toasted
Pepper Jack
Lettuce, Onion, Parmesan Cheese, Oregano

But since I've been to Jersey Mike's I'm starting to wonder if it's really all that great.
 

CORY

wut
GRimer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,659
Location
dallas area
;x i need to plan out my leg day exercises a bit more, i think. that, or hopefully next week i'll be more used to it and can get in more than 3.5 sets of squats (though, i guess i could be boring and lower the weight... might be a better plan) and like... a handful of incomplete lunge sets. got them calf raises, tho!
 

Grey Belnades

The Imperial Aztec
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
8,445
Location
Brawley, CA
3DS FC
0748-2157-4277
NNID
OldManGrey
I talked with Genie and since a handful of PMS are into fitness/getting into fitness, I think we should form a group called the Swole Squad.

;x i need to plan out my leg day exercises a bit more, i think. that, or hopefully next week i'll be more used to it and can get in more than 3.5 sets of squats (though, i guess i could be boring and lower the weight... might be a better plan) and like... a handful of incomplete lunge sets. got them calf raises, tho!
Just focus on doing two sets of 10-12 reps and one set till failure.

C A L F B O Y S
 
Last edited:
Top