Project M Social Thread Gold

[Bleck]

I like Subway, but I've also heard that Canadian Subways are better than American ones, for Reasons™, so.

 

[GHNeko]

@Kushina43 also



Skewing balance is a bad thing. Characters should not have an inherent advantage over other characters by virtue of a mechanic that doesn't actually need to exist.

The problem inherent with edgehogging is not related to edgeguarding - being able to prevent your opponent from getting back to the stage should be something that's a part of the game, else there'd be no point to there even being an offstage at all. The thing is, though, edgehogging being possible is unhealthy for the game for two reasons;

1) It screws over any character that doesn't have reliable mixups in their recovery. Just going by Melee alone, every high tier (and most of the mid tier) characters have recovery mixups (e.g Fox/Falco has his up and side specials, Sheik's up special is aimable, Jiggs can weave, Peach has float and up special, etc), so edgehogging isn't always reliable because characters have the choice to try something else that may not be covered by your edgehog. So then, why is it problematic? Because uniformly, going down the tier list, characters have less and less ways to deal with edgehogging - starting with E tier (and skipping Mario), Ganondorf only has his up special. Link and Young Link have wall grapples, but they're so slow and predictable that most of the high tier characters can punish them hard for trying it. Donkey Kong's up special barely goes upwards. Et cetera.

Most of these characters can supposedly circumvent this weakness by going to the stage, but in most cases, the problem ends up being that going to the stage is asking to be punished by a higher tier character - half of the characters in Melee being nearly unplayable in the current metagame is because of the Hobson's choice of [A: get edgehogged, or B: get gimped/spiked/Fox up smashed/etc.]. And even if you think that's not necessarily a bad thing, because not every character is going to be viable in a fighting game, the real problem is;

2) Similarly to l-canceling, the mechanic doesn't actually add any reasonable amount of interesting depth to the game by existing. You always do it. Is your opponent offstage? Grab the ledge. They're either going to miss their recovery as a result, or have to go onto the stage, which is likely going to be so slow that you get an additional punish on them, for trying the only action they could in that situation. It's not interesting, it's certainly not exciting, and it especially doesn't take any skill (some people might say at this point that you need to time edgehog correctly for invincibility frames, but that's reaching) - so, if given the opportunity to make it better, why would anyone choose to keep it? And here's the thing - while there's no widely accepted tier list, I posit that every character in PM3.6 that can't reliably deal with edgehogging is one of the less good characters. A quick google search for 'pm 3.6 tier list' gives me Junebug's tier list, in which he says that the bottom tier characters are Ness (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Dedede (no recovery mixup, easily punished up special), Ice Climbers (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Olimar (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Zelda (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Donkey Kong (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Charizard (notably does have recovery mixups, but is just, you know, terrible) and Bowser (no recovery mixup, easiest character to gimp in the game). Even in the game that tried to re-balance everyone and make everyone viable, the existence of edgehogging arguably puts eight (or more!) characters at a significant disadvantage, for no reason (I can't even say "bcuz Maylay", because edgehogging was still a thing in Brawl)!

These issues lie with the characters, but not with the concept of edgeguarding itself.

Point 1 is solved by giving characters reliable recovery mix ups. You point out why these mechanics are flaws by using flaws characters to prove your point.

It's just a mechanic that is not inherently bad or good.

Point 2 you start off by saying it doesnt add any interesting depth, but that's a completely subjective opinion. Even in high level melee, you don't always grab the ledge against certain characters because it's not always the best option. You don't really see edgehogging in Brawl all that much because of the overall strength in recovery options and mixups that characters have in that game, as well as other issues.

If a character has so few options in regards to getting around edgehogging, isnt that a problem with the CHARACTER and not the mechanic itself?

You're basically trying to claim a mechanic is bad by using poorly designed/balanced characters as your reasoning.

The mechanic is magnifying flaws within characters, not the other way around.

And besides, skewing recoveries one way or another is a form of balance because it's mearly one aspect of a whole character that has to be balanced.

Just like how variable Health is a balancing mechanic in TFGs. I personally dont agree with it, but its still just a thing that isnt inherently bad or good.

 

[Bleck]

If a character has so few options in regards to getting around edgehogging, isnt that a problem with the CHARACTER and not the mechanic itself?

No, because character's shouldn't uniformly have two recovery moves each just so that edgehogging can continue to exist when the mechanic isn't interesting or valuable.

The mechanic is magnifying flaws within characters, not the other way around.

These flaws only exist because of edgehogging. There's a difference between exacerbating a problem and creating one.

 

[GHNeko]

No, because character's shouldn't uniformly have two recovery moves each just so that edgehogging can continue to exist when the mechanic isn't interesting or valuable.



These flaws only exist because of edgehogging. There's a difference between exacerbating a problem and creating one.

Then its the chicken and egg with us.

I feel that no mechanics are inherently good or bad and how you use them is what determines if they're "good" or "bad".

What matters is how you use your tools.

The flaws exists because they're incompatible with the mechanic, but those traits dont need to exist with the mechanic. I'm not saying that all characters need to have multiple moves for recovery just to get around edgeguarding. I did say that allowing a character to mix up there recover counters the problem with edgehogging covering "all options"

If you intentionally create a trait that conflicts with a mechanic, than that's on you as a game designer.

You make traits that are geared around mechanics; generally at least. If you gear mechanics around traits, you typically make sure they work hand in hand lol.

If you want balance, you need be aware of that.


And you can think that edgehogging is not valuable or interesting, but hey. That's fine. That's what opinions are for.

 

[Bleck]

I feel that no mechanics are inherently good or bad

you're wrong though

 

[Deleted member]

knowing that I've actually beat most of the people that are in the top 10 dfw power rankings kinda pisses me off, because I'm literally back at the same spot I was three years ago when I was rocking a nail polish gamecube controller, a broken wrist, and an mlp welovefine t-shirt

essentially the worst of the worst

 

[GHNeko]

you're wrong though

that's like saying a screwdriver is bad.

tools are tools.

its up to you as a game designer to make the most of your mechanic and make it work and make it fun.

if you cant make it fun and make it work, than that's your fault. not the mechanics fault.

 

[Strong Badam]

mechanics aren't tools lol, at least not in the context you're using them in neko

edgehogging is good though and what smash 4 did to ledges makes me cringe every time

 

[Bleck]

that's like saying a screwdriver is bad.

The problem with your thought process here is that you think that every mechanic must have been designed - edgehogging is presumably not an intentional part of the game. It's telling that the first game in the series that was also developed with the mindset "people will play this game competitively", instead of just "people will play this as a fun party game", also removed edgehogging, because it ****ed with balance so much for so little in return (though Smash 4 has a host of other balance issues, of course).

 

[Strong Badam]

I am 100% certain there is a post-match bonus awarded to players who edgehog opponents in SSBM.

 

[Bleck]

I don't mean that it's a glitch or anything - just that, "run to the ledge before your opponent can grab it" was likely not intended to be a central part of playing the game. Recognizing that it exists didn't matter when the games didn't have a competitive focus - in fact, my whole town knew about edgehogging for years and just plain didn't do it because it was lame (people didn't start doing it often until the Melee resurgence) - and when it came time to evaluate the game in that sense, it seems like edgehogging was laid by the wayside. I don't think the timing was an accident.

 

[GHNeko]

moving the goal posts. you're also acting as if we know what they were thinking when they designed edgeguarding. we dont, and shouldnt act like we do and should only be looking at its inclusion as such.

also just because they removed it in smash 4 has no grounds on what the dev team was thinking back when they were making melee.

developers are people and people can have mindset changes over the course of a decade.

 

[Fortress]

I feel that no mechanics are inherently good or bad and how you use them is what determines if they're "good" or "bad".

Brawl air-dodging is a pretty ****ty mechanic if you want my personal opinion on it.

 

[GHNeko]

In the scope of how everything comes together in Brawl, it was implemented poorly.

It could have been better implemented or have the game take better advantage of it.

 

[Bleck]

also just because they removed it in smash 4 has no grounds on what the dev team was thinking back when they were making melee.

No, but Sakurai saying that he intentionally made Brawl in a way that was contrary to several notable aspects of Melee so that people wouldn't take it so seriously as a fighting game pretty clearly indicates that that's also not what he intended Melee to be.

 

[GHNeko]

Yeah but that still doesnt mean we can take what they're thinking about Smash 4 and apply it to what they were thinking about Melee.

Just because they didnt intended Wavedashing and L-Canceling and a slew of other things to work like they did doesnt mean the same for edgehogging.

Either way; I've made my point.

In other news HMW and Phil on stream was amazing.

 

[standardtoaster]

illegal invitational stream is on http://www.hitbox.tv/cubouldersmash

 

[Bleck]

^ meanwhile, here's ROB being broken

EDIT: NINTENDOCOPS OH ****

edit 2: let's pause the tourney and listen to some skinny kid talk about how he likes melee

like seriously throw that little thing outta there

edit 3: "anime **** and booty, and I don't. I don't. I don't" - nebtune 2016

edit 4: honk

edit 5 : PRESS 1 TO STOP NINTENDO FROM STEALING OUR HONKS

edit 6: I asked the stream to replace the player camera with an uncomfortable closeup on nebtune and they complied

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

@Kushina43 also



Skewing balance is a bad thing. Characters should not have an inherent advantage over other characters by virtue of a mechanic that doesn't actually need to exist.

The problem inherent with edgehogging is not related to edgeguarding - being able to prevent your opponent from getting back to the stage should be something that's a part of the game, else there'd be no point to there even being an offstage at all. The thing is, though, edgehogging being possible is unhealthy for the game for two reasons;

1) It screws over any character that doesn't have reliable mixups in their recovery. Just going by Melee alone, every high tier (and most of the mid tier) characters have recovery mixups (e.g Fox/Falco has his up and side specials, Sheik's up special is aimable, Jiggs can weave, Peach has float and up special, etc), so edgehogging isn't always reliable because characters have the choice to try something else that may not be covered by your edgehog. So then, why is it problematic? Because uniformly, going down the tier list, characters have less and less ways to deal with edgehogging - starting with E tier (and skipping Mario), Ganondorf only has his up special. Link and Young Link have wall grapples, but they're so slow and predictable that most of the high tier characters can punish them hard for trying it. Donkey Kong's up special barely goes upwards. Et cetera.

Most of these characters can supposedly circumvent this weakness by going to the stage, but in most cases, the problem ends up being that going to the stage is asking to be punished by a higher tier character - half of the characters in Melee being nearly unplayable in the current metagame is because of the Hobson's choice of [A: get edgehogged, or B: get gimped/spiked/Fox up smashed/etc.]. And even if you think that's not necessarily a bad thing, because not every character is going to be viable in a fighting game, the real problem is;

2) Similarly to l-canceling, the mechanic doesn't actually add any reasonable amount of interesting depth to the game by existing. You always do it. Is your opponent offstage? Grab the ledge. They're either going to miss their recovery as a result, or have to go onto the stage, which is likely going to be so slow that you get an additional punish on them, for trying the only action they could in that situation. It's not interesting, it's certainly not exciting, and it especially doesn't take any skill (some people might say at this point that you need to time edgehog correctly for invincibility frames, but that's reaching) - so, if given the opportunity to make it better, why would anyone choose to keep it? And here's the thing - while there's no widely accepted tier list, I posit that every character in PM3.6 that can't reliably deal with edgehogging is one of the less good characters. A quick google search for 'pm 3.6 tier list' gives me Junebug's tier list, in which he says that the bottom tier characters are Ness (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Dedede (no recovery mixup, easily punished up special), Ice Climbers (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Olimar (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Zelda (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Donkey Kong (no recovery mixup, easily gimped), Charizard (notably does have recovery mixups, but is just, you know, terrible) and Bowser (no recovery mixup, easiest character to gimp in the game). Even in the game that tried to re-balance everyone and make everyone viable, the existence of edgehogging arguably puts eight (or more!) characters at a significant disadvantage, for no reason (I can't even say "bcuz Maylay", because edgehogging was still a thing in Brawl)!

you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand lmao. ICs have one of the best recoveries in the game

 

[Bleck]

ICs

best

don't understand

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

 

[Juushichi]

yeah, their recovery is pretty good : ( it's annoying

 

[Rawkobo]

Bleck I would say it'd be interesting to see Sm4sh edge mechanics but without the massive magnet hands a large amount of the recovers in the game have. In other words, keep most (some would likely require tweaking to balance with the mechanic change) ledgegrab boxes the same but allow for the takeover.

As long as it doesn't distort the game via unfair punishes on ledgesteal, I don't see a huge issue with it. But there are a lot of factors to consider, and as is, I don't especially mind edgehogging because it serves a purpose and doing it actually affects the game.

 

[Leafeon]

so are we like related now?


it should only take me a couple weeks to figure out the Best (tm) Subway(tm) Sandwich possible. tuna/american and egg/steak/pepper jack are the current leaders.

I put literally everything except for meat, egg, and jalapenos on the sandwich and just put on subway vinagrette...
not even kidding
toasted italian herbs and cheese bread
I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong
but then again I'm like, 5% american based on my food tastes so

 

[Rawkobo]

I'm kind of boring when it comes to Subway, but what I usually end up getting is some form of:

Oven Roasted Chicken OR Steak and Cheese
Either Italian Herbs + Cheese OR Flatbread, Toasted
Pepper Jack
Lettuce, Onion, Parmesan Cheese, Oregano

But since I've been to Jersey Mike's I'm starting to wonder if it's really all that great.

 

[standardtoaster]

Does anyone know @SunJester in person at all, know his name, or know any form of contact for him?

 

[Draco_The]

I don't, but what happened with him?

 

[HCRAYERT]

Does anyone have project m 3.6 homebrew version so that we can battle online my FC is 344197550152.

 

[Leafeon]

Does anyone have project m 3.6 homebrew version so that we can battle online my FC is 344197550152.

You're in the wrong thread.

 

[HCRAYERT]

What thread do you suggest me to look on.

 

[CORY]

;x i need to plan out my leg day exercises a bit more, i think. that, or hopefully next week i'll be more used to it and can get in more than 3.5 sets of squats (though, i guess i could be boring and lower the weight... might be a better plan) and like... a handful of incomplete lunge sets. got them calf raises, tho!

 

[Grey Belnades]

I talked with Genie and since a handful of PMS are into fitness/getting into fitness, I think we should form a group called the Swole Squad.

;x i need to plan out my leg day exercises a bit more, i think. that, or hopefully next week i'll be more used to it and can get in more than 3.5 sets of squats (though, i guess i could be boring and lower the weight... might be a better plan) and like... a handful of incomplete lunge sets. got them calf raises, tho!

Just focus on doing two sets of 10-12 reps and one set till failure.

C A L F B O Y S

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I just play badminton now

 

[Bazkip]

We've got a tournament today, but due to Genesis going on I'm not going to bother streaming, only recording it. Gonna be a long day without Twitch chat to keep me entertained.

PMS, be my Twitch chat.

Kappa Kreygasm MingLee

 

[standardtoaster]

What thread do you suggest me to look on.

You already know about the online matchmaking thread. Online play on wii is a very small crowd now. You should look into netplay and Anther's Ladder.

 

[Bleck]

gifs

literally every recovery in the game looks good if you do it with no interference? these gifs don't matter?

 

[Jonyc128]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Lmao why is this twitter account so godlike?

 

[Soft Serve]

literally every recovery in the game looks good if you do it with no interference? these gifs don't matter?

uhhh bleck you're just being oppositional again

IC's have amazing recovery when synched up, objectively

 

[Bleck]

the word you're looking for is contrarian

 

[Bazkip]

Whoa, Zero and Nairo were knocked out of winners in dubs before top 8
https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-3/brackets/10620/4415/17905

Crazy