Project M Social Thread Gold

[standardtoaster]

technocly

this hurts me

 

[OSCA MIKE]

My god I can't wait for this TAS to be finished later down the line. RTA's of this game already look pretty awesome but the sheer level of movement and formation tech is godly.

Speaking of TASes, this has to be my favorite one at the moment

Plenty of insane ****

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

...Super Mass Attack Bros?

 

[Bazkip]

Speaking of TASes, this has to be my favorite one at the moment

Plenty of insane ****

...is this even remotely possible to beat without TAS? Holy ****

Edit: Okay some quick Googling tells me that it's a joke difficulty that was made to be impossible.
Apparently the first two rooms are (barely) humanly possible though.

 

[PlateProp]

i dont know what sadder. the fact that they called zard a bowser clone. or that bowser is technocly more of a dragon than zard is

Bowser is a Turtle Ox you fool

 

[Strong Badam]

oh god why I am awake, I woke up early no reason whatsoever ughhhh it hurts to have my eyes open.
Today will be a day spent wallowing in self-pity and semi-darkness.

@ Strong Badam teach me the secrets of schleep

I am currently not seeking new pupils. It is a very long process. Sorry.

*just woke up from schleep*

 

[PootisKonga]

So no PM today at college

Good thing is that I double Rested my doubles partner and the remaining opponent simultaneously for the win in SmUsh just before I left

 

[Yung Mei]

lets not forget he also nerfed characters he lost to while buffing his own characters :^)

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/Crimes_Committed_by_Strong_Bad
context

 

[CORY]

http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/Crimes_Committed_by_Strong_Bad
context

NO CONTEXT!

edit: wrong thread.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Bowser is a Turtle Ox you fool

To be fair, that was more applicable in the original design.

Note the lack of horns, so we can't say those are supposed to be Ox-like.

 

[PlateProp]

To be fair, that was more applicable in the original design.

Note the lack of horns, so we can't say those are supposed to be Ox-like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowser_(character)

He was always designed to be oxlike from the beginning

 

[robosteven]

Shameless plug.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground

Tonight at like 6 or 7 or so there's a weekly streaming. Only reason I'm even posting this though is because this is the first tourney in forever that I'll be attending and actually trying really hard to actually place in. Lower than 9th place is a failure, so you guys should watch for my garbage tryhard Olimar and Marth on stream tonight, I'll even rep the PMS tag if y'all would like. <3

 

[Bazkip]

Hey look this week's Humble Bundle is perfect for you guys

Especially the $35 unlock

Spoiler

 

[Frost | Odds]

Awh but I want to play IC's . What do you mean by fixing their "design"?

Bowser's design is hugely, unnecessarily polarizing due to his being 'MURICA sized, his dependence on the armor mechanic (and a few very centralizing moves - nair, fair, dash attack), and his lack of available counterplay against dash dancing and grabs (notably, no means of hindering or discouraging dashdancing such as a projectile or low-commitment neutral options, and no remotely usable spotdodge), which collectively render him incredibly frustrating to crack for some characters, and a complete joke for others - hinging mostly on

1. how good the other character's grab game/followups are
2. whether or not it's a fast faller
3. whether or not the other character has moves with extreme rewards for precision (such as Zelda's kicks, the Knee, Ivy's upB, etc) that aren't actually remotely difficult to land on Bowser.

Bowser's still in a better state than he's ever been, but this stuff should be pretty straightforward to fix without making Bowser too strong.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I know Capcom has done dirty **** in recent years, and I know a lotta people **** on them for it. Well deserved too.
My question is, why aren't folks doing the same for Bamco, Square Enix, and Konami?
Bamco, Squeenix, and Konami have done things that are just as bad and in some cases worse than the things Capcom have done.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Being hunched over, Bowser is only slightly bigger than Dedede.

People act like he is so damn huge next to everyone else when he isn't comparatively.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Bowser's design is hugely, unnecessarily polarizing due to his being 'MURICA sized, his dependence on the armor mechanic, and his lack of available counterplay against dash dancing and grabs (notably, no means of hindering or discouraging dashdancing such as a projectile or low-commitment neutral options, and no remotely usable spotdodge), which collectively render him incredibly frustrating to crack for some characters, and a complete joke for others - hinging mostly on

1. how good the other character's grab game/followups are
2. whether or not it's a fast faller
3. whether or not the other character has moves with extreme rewards for precision (such as Zelda's kicks, the Knee, Ivy's upB, etc) that aren't actually remotely difficult to land on Bowser.

What to do against it? Many design fix suggestions go along the lines of making polarizing characters more like others. If we were doing that consequently, the uniqueness of characters would decline.

 

[GP&B]

What to do against it? Many design fix suggestions go along the lines of making polarizing characters more like others. If we were doing that consequently, the uniqueness of characters would decline.

Given what Odds is saying, I don't think he'd have an issue with this in regards to Bowser.

 

[robosteven]

BOWSER STUFF

You'd think making the Juggernaut more viable wouldn't be too difficult.

edit: I feel like flame-cancel snuffs out dash-dancing and "grab spam" attempts. Maybe I'm wrong though. It works on Olimar at least, and that char has incredible grab game.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Given what Odds is saying, I don't think he'd have an issue with this in regards to Bowser.

That is true. It might be a problem for the game as a whole on the longrun.
I'd accept this if it was necessary, but if it is possible a redesign that doesn't take away uniqueness would be preferable.
I think such a redesign would need to be very accurate because the more differences a character has the more fine-tuning you need, but I feel we shouldn't go for the "lazy" solution too fast.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Bamco, Squeenix, and Konami have done things that are just as bad and in some cases worse than the things Capcom have done.

1. DLC backlash against Capcom for being the most absurd and content on the disc.

2. Those other companies didn't completely ignore their most popular franchises even when the games being made were mediocre.

3. Capcom wanted to try their hand at being a Western company but failed completely instead of sticking to their Japanese roots.

 

[robosteven]

I know that this is the absolute wrong thread to bring this up, but IMO the very reason that Olimar is bad is because he's got a couple of hilariously overcentralized moves and all of them are buggy as hell. However, and this is the reason that I actually really like his character and continue to play him, the rest of his moveset complements everything else so well.

I don't think Bowser is as bad as everyone makes him out to be. I think his moveset is pretty much solid and he's got good tools to deal with most situations, but he could use something more I guess, and I wish it wasn't just "make him smaller."

 

[wiztick]

this hurts me

i aint editing it nerd

 

[DrinkingFood]

Petition to give boweser his old
Flames back that had max reach and didn't shrink as quickly so he can beat DDing sometimes?
Or a fireball oh please a fireball
Yes I know they tried the fireball nobody cares if it bounces off objects jankily it just needs to do fireball things.

 

[Bazkip]

Oh **** TwitchPlaysPokemon redoing Red starts today

rip all my free time

 

[robosteven]

Oh **** TwitchPlaysPokemon redoing Red starts today

rip all my free time

hopefully they won't install that democracy bull**** again

 

[Cubelarooso]

His hurtboxes could be contracted to better match - or even inscribe - his model, making him smaller without making him smaller. Especially around his snout, head, and shell (which one would expect to be less vulnerable).
Maybe make the first flame always go max distance (or even extra far).

 

[Comeback Kid]

Bowser is already jet powered on the ground, just give him a float, like so.

 

[Bazkip]

hopefully they won't install that democracy bull**** again

I think it's supposed to be anarchy only

 

[robosteven]

I think it's supposed to be anarchy only

I'm in

 

[Gamegenie222]

I know Capcom has done dirty **** in recent years, and I know a lotta people **** on them for it. Well deserved too.
My question is, why aren't folks doing the same for Bamco, Square Enix, and Konami?
Bamco, Squeenix, and Konami have done things that are just as bad and in some cases worse than the things Capcom have done.

Maybe because they dont get blown up as hard as Capcom does but please enlighten and remind me?

 

[Bleck]

hmm in the game where how fast you can do things determines how effective you are how can we make the slowest character better hmm I wonder hmm

 

[Comeback Kid]

We want slow and powerful to be a thing too, speeding up everything is the easiest solution that people are trying to avoid for the sake of an interesting game.

 

[Soft Serve]

hmm in the game where how fast you can do things determines how effective you are how can we make the slowest character better hmm I wonder hmm

More armor, bigger hurtboxes, 1hko moves

oh a spammable projectile that you combo off of, that worked for link

and more ph1re

 

[Bleck]

We want slow and powerful to be a thing too, speeding up everything is the easiest solution that people are trying to avoid for the sake of an interesting game.

it's not just the easiest solution, it's literally the only solution

like you can't have a mod that gives Fox back the one-frame shine and then makes L-canceling a thing and structures its entire metagame and social experience around characters that have moves that are overall fast enough to do long combo chains and then pretend that it's at all possible for a big fat slow character to be anything but a joke

even if you made Bowser's current strengths just plain better (the stuff Soft Serve just said), 90% of the playerbase would just complain until the PMDT reverted it 'cause nerrrr nerrrrr that ain't Melee nerrrrrrr

 

[Gamegenie222]

smash at Xanadu playlist from this monday is up.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7Mav75MCzWBNNDzqbhEUYKbDICLTInK2

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Maybe because they dont get blown up as hard as Capcom does but please enlighten and remind me?

Here's Konami as an example.

- Konami is the worst at publishing/releasing things. They almost always find ways to drop the ball in that regard.
Examples

Spoiler

- MGS HD collection was released at the same day as Modern Warfare 3 AND had limited physical distribution in the US.
- Release of MGS HD made Snake Eater 3D obsolete. Also lol Snake Eater 3D
- The Month of Madness
- Silent Hill HD collection porting job. Terrible ports were terrible. PS3 versions were patch a bit, but didn't fix all the issues.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

https://twitter.com/adsk4/status/183196016282046464
As you can see, even the original art director of the first 3 Silent Hill games was appalled at the port job.
- Quietly delayed Silent Hill: Book of Memories without telling anyone, pretty much confirming the failure of the Month of Madness
- Zone of the Enders HD collection also were crap ports. Patches have fixed the frame rate problems... but not the 360 versions

- Sitting on Hudson Soft's properties and doing absolutely nothing of value with them
- Released a $30 demo
- Wasted Igarashi's time with trying to force him to make social games rather than the type of game he excels at making, resulting in him leaving Konami
- Making Metal Gear last longer than it should have (Peace Walker and MGS4 were supposed to be the last games)
- Allowed all their NOT Kojima driven franchises to either die or fall into obscurity. Considering Lords of Shadow 2's reception and Igarashi not being with the company anymore, Castlevania is now in danger of being another franchise that will die.
- Almost all of their recent rhythm games are Japan only for some reason

I'm honestly more concerned about Konami dying than Capcom these days, because Kojima, Yu-Gi-Oh and those japan only erotic rps and dating sims games they make the only thing keeping the game division alive at this point.

I'm almost positive I missed something else...

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Bleck Bowser is not the slowest character. DDD is. Bowser just doesn't really have tools to mitigate his lagginess and terrible neutral game.

Being hunched over, Bowser is only slightly bigger than Dedede.

Not true at all. Observe how D3 fits neatly inside two 'blocks', while Bowser nearly takes up a neat three - look at the shadows if you're not sure - I'm quite certain that the Training stage is lit from directly above.

Bowser is also much bigger vertically and towards the upper corners in particular, meaning that he'll get hit by a lot of aerials and command grabs and the like from much further away than D3 -- he's actually quite square in profile.

What to do against it? Many design fix suggestions go along the lines of making polarizing characters more like others. If we were doing that consequently, the uniqueness of characters would decline.

The short version: provide him with some of his missing tools with existing moves where possible, scale back his size and some of his more ridiculous moves. I don't think he needs a wholesale redesign - just some medium-to-heavy tuning.

I'm of the opinion that characters should be as different as possible while maintaining a reasonable matchup spread and playability. Fun + Balance > Flavor, in the end. Regardless, what I propose ultimately wouldn't cost Bowser any of his identity or uniqueness - it would just force both Bowser players and their opponents to use more tools in their kits.

1. Reduce his size.

I'm not sure by how much is reasonable, but in a perfect world, IMO he should still be the biggest character in the game, but not by much. The Huge Bowser Experiment failed (sorry @cmart and Jiang), it's time to move on.

For obvious reasons, this would also decrease the size of many or all of Bowser's attacks - and that's okay. In my opinion, Bowser isn't about outspacing his opponent with fair and dtilt -- he's about hard reads, hard punishes, and hard mindgames, and being a damn tank - and in many matchups, his current size and range prevent all of that. Against Falco for example, literally all Bowser should do in neutral most of the time is wait for Falco to jump and laser, then armor through and punish with a dash attack. That's boring, for both sides! In other matchups, his size results in extremely free 0-death combos for his opponent

Reducing his size should also make him less combo-able (which is a good thing, for a character ostensibly all about survivability)

2. Dramatically increase the size of Flame Breath, but make its damage level heavily decay over both distance, and time.

IMO, the best way to give Bowser a projectile without giving him stupid frame traps or messing too much with the current balance, is to effectively give it similar utility to Fox's lasers- tack on a tiny bit of damage (think like 3-4%) from very long range to gently encourage the opponent to approach/put him on a clock, while retaining the utility of Flame Canceling. This would also help stabilize Bowser in matchups where his neutral game is completely invalidated by his opponent playing Super LeftRightLeft Bros - and if the decay speed is appropriately high, the move shouldn't feel at all oppressive or unavoidable. Plus, it'd have more of a 'burst' feeling, which would be pretty cool imo; on top of being relatively easy to implement.

A fireball would be a cool idea, but I don't think it'd be nearly as easy to implement, nor fit as neatly into Bowser's overall design.

3. Decrease Bowser's reliance on a tiny subset of his moveset by tuning and differentiating his moves

Currently, Bowser builds damage primarily by use of nair, fair, dash attack, and dash grab (except against FFers, who also eat a lot of utilts). His kills against opponents who know how to spotdodge and/or DI the Koopa Klaw, come overwhelmingly often from the tipper fair, and sometimes upB or dsmash against floaties. Fsmash and Usmash are almost entirely useless, ftilt is pretty niche, the Koopa Klaw is utterly useless in neutral and is typically an inferior punish to uair or fair (again, provided the opponent knows how to DI it).

So, there's a few problems here. Fair has a huge role overlap as often being Bowser's best move for spacing (its range is outrageous), killing (at the tip), and comboing (in the sourspot). IMO, a move as good at comboing and spacing and building damage as this one should have limited utility as a kill move - every time I whack someone with this and they die at 90% from the middle of the stage, I cry inside. Similarly, it makes me weep that I so rarely have occasion to use the Koopa Klaw (other than to style), ftilt, or Bowser's smashes.

So, in my opinion, there's a bunch of things we can do. Some combination of the following would be a healthy start:

a) Decrease the KBG on the tipper fair. Dramatically.

It's cool, but it's just too centralizing - and playing against this is hell, particularly on tiny stages like WW and YS.

b) Improve Bowser's F- and U- smashes.

Yeah, I get that fsmash is hype in the extremely rare circumstance that it hits something, but seriously guys, it never, ever should. Bowser would be way more hype to watch, IMHO, if he had more reason to use FSmash more frequently. I think this should be at least a few frames faster, have armor from earlier on in the move (anyone challenging it from the ground can still choose to use a grab instead), and it should break shields. The current one does a lot of shield damage, but it's next to impossible for Bowser to actually meaningfully hit his opponent's shield again before it's fully recharged - the current shield damage is useless.

Even with all of those changes, if you get hit (or shield broken) by that move, you bloody well deserved it.

As for Usmash, it simply doesn't have the KB to justify its existence- utilt is almost as good at killing floaties and is much, much faster - and short hop uair is of a comparable speed while having much greater KB. You could argue that usmash has some form of limited utility in terms of challenging opponents coming directly from above, but, seriously guys, that never ever actually happens.

There's a couple things that could be done there as well. First, boringly, its vanilla properties could be buffed. Great - I'm all for that. That would be enough.

A more interesting idea, IMO, would be to give this move invincibility frames while it's being charged as well as during the startup. He crouches down during the charge animation, so it fits visually (particularly given how he explodes upwards, as though he was extremely tense) - and it'd give him a hard punish for a hard read, which fits very well thematically. Note that this move would still be extraordinarily punishable during the endlag and still have a relatively slow startup, so making it "OP" would be very difficult.

I, personally, would give this move both statistical bonuses and the invincibility thing, because it really is super useless right now.

I think we can all agree that the hypest Bowser is the one that uses a lot of smashes. Unfortunately, they're really just not (barring dsmash) currently usable for a Bowser player that actually wants to win - my style is incredibly boring and simple, because that's just what's optimal right now. I wish that were not the case.

c) This one is probably more controversial, but I think Bowser's ftilt currently has too much role overlap with the dtilt in terms of being a long-range spacing move with some kill potential. Given the reigns, I would reduce its range dramatically, increase its speed and endlag, and significantly increase its kill power (while possibly adding a fire effect on the fist).

That may be a bit extreme, so I think the more moderate/agreeable solution (especially given that its range would already be decreased by virtue of Bowser himself being smaller) would be a simple, mild-to-moderate KBG increase.

d) Add utility to the Koopa Klaw by virtue of DI mixups (an additional throw direction?) and/or making it less crappy in general.

I'll repeat myself from earlier: KK is utterly useless in neutral. It's just too slow to not be spotdodged, and it's too much commitment to be thrown out with any frequency. Its only utility right now is strictly as a punish tool - and at that, it's pretty poor due to how easy it is to DI out of. In my opinion, KK epitomizes everything Bowser is/should be about - hard reads, getting in on an opponent unconventionally, and punishing the hell out of him for it. There are a hundred ways that this could be made either better at punishing, or usable in the neutral game, and I'm not too picky. I'd just like to be able to use this move outside of very niche situations or against clueless opponents.

4. Decrease the skill floor to playing a properly mobile Bowser

Consistently perfect wavelanding with Bowser is unbelievably difficult, given how frequently he needs to do it, and how central it is to his new game. IMO, this stuff is absolutely essential to playing Bowser properly, much like it is to Ganon - but Bowser players need to consistently hit 2 and 3 frame windows in order to do this, every single time, and a good Bowser does it often. A single miss can be absolutely disastrous. The level of difficulty to do the same thing with Ganon is much more reasonable, especially in high-pressure tournament situations.

I've been practicing PWLs for over an hour a day (often for 2 or 3), pretty much every day since 3.5 came out, and I still mess up regularly. I know I don't suck that bad, given that I have a fairly respectable melee Falco and PM Wolf - and if it's this frustrating for me, this probably renders the tech totally unusable for anyone newer to Bowser. For comparison, I never practice melee Ganon, but almost never mess up PWLs with him in friendlies or in tournament.

5. Usable spotdodge, please.

Please.

Anyway, I got more opinions, but that's probably a pretty good place to call it off.

tl:dr: screw you, read my complicated feelings about Bowser

 

[Bleck]

I remember asking why Bowser has the Koopa Klaw instead of the Flying Slam and I'm pretty sure nobody answered me at best or just scoffed at worst