Project M Mewtwo: A Balancing Project

[PseudoTypical]

Got a chance to test out the fixed model, and the tail's rigged! The rest of the problems are obviously still there, but at least now you won't have to do more re-rigging than necessary.

 

[Shadow Huan]

so I read the pages that have been posted while I was away, and was confused about the problems people were having with Teleport. then I reread my pitch about said move and realised that I totally misrepresented what I meant.

8 frames for start up on the move is fine, as it gives you time to direct the move. it shouldn't take 8 frames for the invulnerable frames to start though. those should start on frame 4. I am generally terrible at posting my thoughts lol

I need to get my grubby mitts on this demo and play test it with a few of my old crew mates; I really wanna try out this mewtwo. just from reading I approve of the changes thusfar. thanks for trying out the ftilt idea

ugh damn my lack of a home computer

 

[Anonistry]

Just sounds like Cerebella has a nicely done kit. My favorite would def be Tager. He needs some stuff tightened up, but his core concept is awesome. I wonder if we could even pull off Magnetic Mewtwo...

 

[GigasOverlord]

Oh, God, pull Mewtwo. Just stop, throw a shine on him and... oh wait.





We already did that.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

Just sounds like Cerebella has a nicely done kit. My favorite would def be Tager. He needs some stuff tightened up, but his core concept is awesome. I wonder if we could even pull off Magnetic Mewtwo...

As far as I know, it seems like you never played nor watched gameplay of Skullgirls. It might be best if you at least watch gameplay of her before you judge her. I didn't even explain everything she can do. Plus the game itself is balanced meaning every character is good including Cerebella. Tager sucked in all 5 Blazblue games (seriously arc system works?). I don't hate Tager, it is just that he was never balanced out with the cast. Mike Z (really good Tager player) is the game designer of Skullgirls. Just wanted to point that out if that gives you any interest.

Hey Nguz, are you sticking with shine or are you going to try something new?

 

[Feryx]

I have a question, and I apologize if it has already been addressed here or elsewhere. If Mewtwo has to overwrite an existing character, can it be one of the alloys? They are after all four currently unused character slots, which would make them a perfect place to hack in new characters like Mewtwo without stepping on any toes. I don't know if the alloys have any special properties about them that would make this difficult or impossible, but I do remember seeing hacks that made them playable, so I think it's something to consider.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I have a question, and I apologize if it has already been addressed here or elsewhere. If Mewtwo has to overwrite an existing character, can it be one of the alloys? They are after all four currently unused character slots, which would make them a perfect place to hack in new characters like Mewtwo without stepping on any toes. I don't know if the alloys have any special properties about them that would make this difficult or impossible, but I do remember seeing hacks that made them playable, so I think it's something to consider.

Unfortunately they do. They can't use specials, and I know there's a whole bunch of other technical problems, although I don't know them myself. I think the idea has been well explored but nothing's come out of it.

 

[GigasOverlord]

I have a question, and I apologize if it has already been addressed here or elsewhere. If Mewtwo has to overwrite an existing character, can it be one of the alloys? They are after all four currently unused character slots, which would make them a perfect place to hack in new characters like Mewtwo without stepping on any toes. I don't know if the alloys have any special properties about them that would make this difficult or impossible, but I do remember seeing hacks that made them playable, so I think it's something to consider.

It's also incredibly difficult to code projectiles out of thin air. It's part of the reason why a Plug and Play on both Wario or Jigglypuff isn't ready yet.

 

[PseudoTypical]

It's also incredibly difficult to code projectiles out of thin air. It's part of the reason why a Plug and Play on both Wario or Jigglypuff isn't ready yet.

Wait, so is this perfectly viable for characters that don't have projectiles?

 

[Nguz95]

@Feryx pretty much what they said. Unfortunately it's also the same with people like super wario and giga bowser. There's also a non-functioning character slot for Mewtwo in the game's code. As for the .rels, they aren't going well. I'm going to try and get some help. Please let me know what you think if you do try him, i can always use the extra feedback.

@Afro sort of. This shine will retain the same startup properties, but will add much more depth to the character. Here's what it does. First, Mewtwo pauses, creating a shockwave that lets out the shine hitbox. That's 5 frames. Then he starts rotating around his front foot and moving forward, a la green hand. This lasts for 20 frames. For the first 10 frames he is vulnerable, but for the las 10 he has knockback armor of 15% perfect for most projectiles. At frame 25 he sticks out his hand and generates a shine-like orb that absorbs projectiles. This also generates a fairly strong hitbox. The move is coded and everything, but the animation keeps on rotating backwards. I'm really close right now.

 

[GigasOverlord]

The move is coded and everything, but the animation keeps on rotating backwards. I'm really close right now.

YOU SPIN ME RIGHT ROUND, BABY, RIGHT ROUND.

 

[PseudoTypical]

@Afro sort of. This shine will retain the same startup properties, but will add much more depth to the character. Here's what it does. First, Mewtwo pauses, creating a shockwave that lets out the shine hitbox. That's 5 frames. Then he starts rotating around his front foot and moving forward, a la green hand. This lasts for 20 frames. For the first 10 frames he is vulnerable, but for the las 10 he has knockback armor of 15% perfect for most projectiles. At frame 25 he sticks out his hand and generates a shine-like orb that absorbs projectiles. This also generates a fairly strong hitbox. The move is coded and everything, but the animation keeps on rotating backwards. I'm really close right now.

This sounds awesome, if hard to master. Definitely a Mewtwo move. I'll make sure to try it out as soon as I can.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

@Feryx pretty much what they said. Unfortunately it's also the same with people like super wario and giga bowser. There's also a non-functioning character slot for Mewtwo in the game's code. As for the .rels, they aren't going well. I'm going to try and get some help. Please let me know what you think if you do try him, i can always use the extra feedback.

@Afro sort of. This shine will retain the same startup properties, but will add much more depth to the character. Here's what it does. First, Mewtwo pauses, creating a shockwave that lets out the shine hitbox. That's 5 frames. Then he starts rotating around his front foot and moving forward, a la green hand. This lasts for 20 frames. For the first 10 frames he is vulnerable, but for the las 10 he has knockback armor of 15% perfect for most projectiles. At frame 25 he sticks out his hand and generates a shine-like orb that absorbs projectiles. This also generates a fairly strong hitbox. The move is coded and everything, but the animation keeps on rotating backwards. I'm really close right now.

That sounds interesting. I look forward to it!

 

[Nguz95]

YOU SPIN ME RIGHT ROUND, BABY, RIGHT ROUND.

Like a record baby round, right round.

 

[Anonistry]

I WAAANT YOUR LOVE, LAOAOOAH-AAAAVVEEE!!!

... But in all seriousness, glad to hear it is coming along so well. Despite the animation derp. And yeah, its use'll likely be technical. Indeed, banishing flat is one of Gief's most complex, and important, skills. A good Gief player needs to know how and when to use it, and good and bad iterations of the Red Cyclone were the way in no small part based on how well tuned the green hand was. So yeah, good stuff.

@Afro Yeah, I haven't seen all that much skullgirl play. Don't get me wrong though, I just mean it seems there is no "gimmick" unique to her. Instead she takes previous grappler tools and makes them work. Which honestly is really why so many grapplers see little competitive play. Tager is awesome, but several issues, especially how poorly tuned magnetism is, hold him back or are worked around to the point of absurdity. But oh well, still awesome.

 

[Nguz95]

Just watched an iron tager combo video. Got me ultra hyped to start coding psychic.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Yes. So goddamn excited to see what we're gonna get. SO MANY EXCITEDS!

 

[Anonistry]

400 EXCITEDS!!!

... Don't know why, but made me think of Powerthirst. Anyways, Psychic is gonna be so hype.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

*sigh* Skullgirls never gets any love....
I still look forward to the new move though.

EDIT: @Anonistry Are you suggesting that characters with no unique gimmick are not competitive to use. If so, that is bull crap! It is true that Cerebella does not have a crazy gimmick. But that absolutely does not mean the character is "100% not interesting". Cerebella can handle herself in all situations. While Tager is sitting at a garbage tier spot due to horrible match ups. Tager does so poorly against characters like Nu and Hazama who can spam projectiles on him. It hurts seeing Tager struggle like that with little to no options. Cerebella has options. Like I said you can't judge Cerebella until you actually see her in action. I can judge Tager because I have seen the horrors of playing as Tager. Skullgirls is more competitive than Blazbllue.

 

[Nguz95]

Whoah, i better get a new version out so we can get ourselves back on track...

 

[Nguz95]

I'm testing the banishing flat tomorrow morning because I need to go to bed and I can't get to my Wii. Here is the move now if you want to test it badly: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/9qc8zsgebqj9o/Move_Testing
Basically I fixed the turning around animation, and now I am using character momentum to get him to move forward. I just need to make sure I gave him enough momentum. What he was doing before is he would finish the move only to snap back all the ground he gained from advancing. It made the move look bad, and it took away the approach option. I did some digging and figured out that is a limitation brought on by the way the move was coded, so I opted to add a momentum event. I just hope he moves enough now, otherwise I'll have to add more momentum.

On another note, do you mind if I remove the final smash to code psychic? I need the extra space since I am using Wario's bite as a base, which takes up a lot of space. I know that the final smash isn't too important since this is project M, but I just wanted to make sure before I started messing around with too much stuff.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I'm testing the banishing flat tomorrow morning because I need to go to bed and I can't get to my Wii. Here is the move now if you want to test it badly: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/9qc8zsgebqj9o/Move_Testing
Basically I fixed the turning around animation, and now I am using character momentum to get him to move forward. I just need to make sure I gave him enough momentum. What he was doing before is he would finish the move only to snap back all the ground he gained from advancing. It made the move look bad, and it took away the approach option. I did some digging and figured out that is a limitation brought on by the way the move was coded, so I opted to add a momentum event. I just hope he moves enough now, otherwise I'll have to add more momentum.

On another note, do you mind if I remove the final smash to code psychic? I need the extra space since I am using Wario's bite as a base, which takes up a lot of space. I know that the final smash isn't too important since this is project M, but I just wanted to make sure before I started messing around with too much stuff.

Just as I pack my Wii away for college. haha I'll make sure to try it ASAP.

I could care less if you take it out, so long as it doesn't freeze if he uses a Smash Ball. Wario's Bite is a freaking complicated move in P:M; I've had so many freezes with it and no other Wario move, even with simple retextures. Hope it doesn't mess things up here.

 

[Nguz95]

yeah usually it's that way because wario does strange stuff when he eats food and bombs and stuff. I'm trying to parse it down to the essentials, otherwise I would need 10 action tabs. Good luck at college!

 

[PseudoTypical]

yeah usually it's that way because wario does strange stuff when he eats food and bombs and stuff. I'm trying to parse it down to the essentials, otherwise I would need 10 action tabs. Good luck at college!

I usually don't even get that far, since it freezes when I bite the opponent (unless that's affected by the other things). Glad it'll be a lot simpler.

Thanks! I actually arrive on Monday, but I've got to pack now for other reasons, so it'll be a while until I can use your things again (especially since it'll be chaos the first couple days).

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I am starting to get off topic... Ok I will shut up about Cerebella vs Tager. I guess my opinion was more aggressive than it should have been.

I don't care about final smashes either. I find items really annoying at times so I never use them. Whatever works best is fine with me .

 

[Anonistry]

*sigh* Skullgirls never gets any love....
I still look forward to the new move though.

EDIT: @Anonistry Are you suggesting that characters with no unique gimmick are not competitive to use. If so, that is bull crap! It is true that Cerebella does not have a crazy gimmick. But that absolutely does not mean the character is "100% not interesting". Cerebella can handle herself in all situations. While Tager is sitting at a garbage tier spot due to horrible match ups. Tager does so poorly against characters like Nu and Hazama who can spam projectiles on him. It hurts seeing Tager struggle like that with little to no options. Cerebella has options. Like I said you can't judge Cerebella until you actually see her in action. I can judge Tager because I have seen the horrors of playing as Tager. Skullgirls is more competitive than Blazbllue.

Woah woah woah, woah. Woah... woah. Woah there, hold on. Exact opposite of what I meant. I have not seen her, but I am aware she is considered a great grappler, and the reason I understand it to be is because she has no "gimmick" other than having grappler tools that are actually designed and tuned correctly. Which is A-okay in my book. Usually its the gimmicky grapplers who do the worst, if anything.

So yeah, no insult to Cerebella intended whatsoever. Just saying without seeing her in play, she lacks a "gimmick" and honestly, that probably is a good thing. Not quite sure how I conveyed such a message, but... yeah. My bad. I was admitting that I loved Tager despite the crap he gets because they won't actually fix his real problems.

Also, totally feel free to remove final smash. It really is just Lucario's anyways, and since one of my game friends mains Sonic, we pretty much have tacitly decided to quit the Smash Balls...

 

[GigasOverlord]

Okey-dokey. Since the whole Tager/Cerebella thing is over, here's some things I noticed.

Right now, I can be lenient on Flat because it's WIP, but it's coming along smoothly. The animation is nice, although not what I expected. The properties are working fine, as it has both Shine and Flat hitboxes. The Shine hits his whole body and Flat clanks low projectiles like Link's Arrows. A problem I noticed is when falling and Flatting, the Flat sweetspot comes out just before the shadow graphic. A nice touch is the fact that the Shine hitboxes don't clank any projectiles. You also got the midair JC Shining to work! That alone makes for crazy mixups, because the horizontal plane spinning of Flat combined with vertical plane spinning o a double jump makes it look really odd to the opponent and helps unexpected movement. Also, is it possible to code Down-B moves to retain aerial momentum after execution? I'm not sure a single character can do it, which is a shame. Mewtwo would benefit greatly from being able to Fall-Flat on people.

As a side note, I'm not sure if you've been tinkering with angled Psycho Cut, but the up angle fires the graphics in a 45 degree angle downward right in front of Mewtwo. This is odd, because the hitboxing is nowhere near the graphic. Again, WIP.

And finally, I don't need a Final Smash, especially if it takes up coding space. Final Smashes are just a waste in a game like P:M. Just as a question, you said you were working with Wario's Bite? Does this concept of importing moves from other characters only work with non-projectile moves? Or is this a hint that progress is being made on a Plug and Play over Wario...?

 

[Nguz95]

Okey-dokey. Since the whole Tager/Cerebella thing is over, here's some things I noticed.

Right now, I can be lenient on Flat because it's WIP, but it's coming along smoothly. The animation is nice, although not what I expected. The properties are working fine, as it has both Shine and Flat hitboxes. The Shine hits his whole body and Flat clanks low projectiles like Link's Arrows. A problem I noticed is when falling and Flatting, the Flat sweetspot comes out just before the shadow graphic. A nice touch is the fact that the Shine hitboxes don't clank any projectiles. You also got the midair JC Shining to work! That alone makes for crazy mixups, because the horizontal plane spinning of Flat combined with vertical plane spinning o a double jump makes it look really odd to the opponent and helps unexpected movement. Also, is it possible to code Down-B moves to retain aerial momentum after execution? I'm not sure a single character can do it, which is a shame. Mewtwo would benefit greatly from being able to Fall-Flat on people.

As a side note, I'm not sure if you've been tinkering with angled Psycho Cut, but the up angle fires the graphics in a 45 degree angle downward right in front of Mewtwo. This is odd, because the hitboxing is nowhere near the graphic. Again, WIP.

And finally, I don't need a Final Smash, especially if it takes up coding space. Final Smashes are just a waste in a game like P:M. Just as a question, you said you were working with Wario's Bite? Does this concept of importing moves from other characters only work with non-projectile moves? Or is this a hint that progress is being made on a Plug and Play over Wario...?

Thank you for your feedback on flat, I am glad to see my idea worked. I thought I fixed the flat sweetspot, but I think that's a limitation of the graphic. I'll have to change the timer frames so it activates earlier. The aerial momentum thing is something I have been trying to add. I know that most characters can di out of their side-b, so I figure that it's just a simple matter of adding the right variable or command. I tired one thing in an earlier version that didn't change it, but I bet I can get it working. I agree that letting him fall on characters would be an excellent addition. Just fyi, the shine he generates actually absorbs projectiles. I figured that matched barrier better since barrier actually increases defense instead of reflecting attacks. Mewtwo doesn't gain any hp, but he can absorb projectiles like Wolf's blaster. Physical hits like link's arrows clank with the hitbox because of their properties, but most lasers and other projectiles will be absorbed.

I forgot about angled psycho cut. I'll fix that, I just put it on the back burner for a little.

What I am using from Wario's bite is the coding of the attack itself. In PSA there are actions, sub actions, and sub routines. Since specials are more complicated moves, they take up all the action tabs. Final smashes are in that category too. Regular attacks, as well as components of the specials, can be found in subactions and subroutines, which are very similar. The actions are sort of like managers, they tell the subactions to activate at certain times and situations. I'm using the actions of Wario's bite, but I'm making my own subactions so Mewtwo doesn't have the same throws as Wario. The concept does work with projectile moves, but you can't transfer projectiles from character to character. You can just use their projectile, or you can substitute the projectile for an item (blaster, firecracker, etc).

Unfortunately plug and play is not going well. I'm going to look for some help in the thread it came from since I am not having much luck atm. Hopefully I figure it out. I have just been thinking about Wario since I have been playing with him a bit. I am also going to use Bowser's side-b as a base for coding as well.

 

[Nguz95]

I am starting to get off topic... Ok I will shut up about Cerebella vs Tager. I guess my opinion was more aggressive than it should have been.

I don't care about final smashes either. I find items really annoying at times so I never use them. Whatever works best is fine with me .

Lol don't worry man. I found your conversation very enlightening. Now I want to give skull girls a try. Your opinion was perfectly fine, as it gave me insight into a game that is super balanced.

 

[Anonistry]

Sounds like it is all coming along awesomely. Good to hear!

 

[Mewter]

Maybe just keep the final bit of Mewtwo's final smash (the explosion) and change the animation so it looks more like Psystrike.

Can't try any more Mewtwo demos since I have no Wii in college lol. Sounds good so far!

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe just keep the final bit of Mewtwo's final smash (the explosion) and change the animation so it looks more like Psystrike.

Can't try any more Mewtwo demos since I have no Wii in college lol. Sounds good so far!

That's no fun... Dang. I'll have to make a vid so you can see what it looks like. Enjoy college!

 

[PseudoTypical]

That's no fun... Dang. I'll have to make a vid so you can see what it looks like. Enjoy college!

If you mean in the short-term, too, I'd also like to see!

 

[Windstar120025]

Is the new Forward smash really need to be like that, i mean he isn'ta physical combate player or isnt suposed to be. i dont know what you want to do with it but it doesnt feel right. What i wouldn't mind seing is like a future sight attack, initial hit is all knockback no damage just to move opponent away then a frew seconds later (maybe like 5 secs or even shorter if need be) secoind unavoidable hit appears with much larger hitback and a decent amountof damage. make it shieldable so it can't be used as a combo starter as much, so people could prepare for it.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Mewtwo has base 110 Attack; your Mega Punch argument is mooted. Even so, he did tail attacks long before he used punches. I keep thinking that since Nguz designed it as inspired by Mega Punch that it is a concentration of dark energy that Mewtwo uses his hand to deliver, rather than actually physically punching them.

That Future Sight attack idea is intriguing, though. The only bad thing is that if it's prolonged and shieldable, there's no good point for having it be an F-Smash. Push away on ground? Shield. Push away near ledge? Airdodge up toward ledge. As a special, though? Highly workable. Command grab that launches opponents at a fixed angle into a delayed hitbox sound like something Mewtwo would do.

EDIT: Also, I was fiddling around and playing some matches with the new Flat Mewtwo. I went to Mega Punch a PKT2 Lucas, and he got hit away when Mewtwo's hand was receding. I'm not too sure if that's intentional, but methinks the duration or hitboxing needs to be fixed.

Mewtwo can also wall cling like Lucario out of Teleport. This is not that big a deal, but it strengthens his recovery on stages that have walls. You can literally recover from the bubble zone down in Green Hill.

 

[Anonistry]

As a command grab, that sounds just about like the best way to make a true, classical SPD style grab. If only Nguz had room for it... Of course, the best counterargument is, how many grabs does the guy need?

 

[Mewter]

Mewtwo has base 110 Attack; your Mega Punch argument is mooted.

Yeah, for perspective, Mewtwo is tied with the likes of Torterra (109), Aggron, Lucario, Golem, and Snorlax for base 110 attack.
And then you've got his base 154 Sp. Attack second only to Attack Deoxys and White Kyurem.

@Nguz, that'd be cool. Thanks! And it would be a good way to gain support and feedback from people who haven't downloaded it yet.

 

[GigasOverlord]

@Anonistry, Mewtwo has pretty much 2 ways to go, pseudo-grappler and pure zoner. I've always thought of Mewtwo as the latter, because it just seems fitting. He's kind of like Victor von Doom. They're both really powerful, love toying around with their opponent, deny even giving them the time of day, almost never use their power to the full extent, and are almost exclusively defeated by stupid things like Reed Richards and Pikachu tears.

@ Mewter, I know, right. I've actually attempted to run Earthquake sets on Mewtwo, but it went horribly. The point being, Mewtwo has more than a workable Attack stat, so physical attacks are not out of question. That being said, it makes him look way more badass if he just doesn't use them at all.

We'll just have to wait until Psystrike and Psychic are done. I have a sneaking feeling that I'll love Psychic when it's done. Related, is it possible for Nguz to shoop a poll in the OP when he releases the new Side-Bs?

 

[Mewter]

@ Mewter, I know, right. I've actually attempted to run Earthquake sets on Mewtwo, but it went horribly. The point being, Mewtwo has more than a workable Attack stat, so physical attacks are not out of question. That being said, it makes him look way more badass if he just doesn't use them at all.

I was agreeing with your claim that his attack stat is good.

 

[GigasOverlord]

I was agreeing with your claim that his attack stat is good.

I know, I was just putting anecdotal evidence to also agree. EVERYONE AGREES!