Project M Mewtwo: A Balancing Project

[Anonistry]

After playing a couple of matches, I can honestly see why they needed to give reflect to shine: especially since we can't hold it, most projectiles are simply spammable enough that the barrier was pointless. Against ZZS: Block one, next one up on me the moment I am finished. You'd prefer to not let a full charge Samus shot be blocked, yet its setup actually much favors a clever, quick maneuver against such an attack.

I don't know, you could give it absurd recovery, but that would open a whole other can of worms. You could give a roll or allow slow movement during the barrier, but that just screams broken and way too useful. Without reflect, I fear it will be much harder to make a kind of shine that still demands respect, thus why I think a reversal option would be decent.

By momentum, I meant who had offense and who had defense. In lots of fighting games, there are reversals, particularly DP aka Shoryuken clones, that are to bait and/or punish bad moves on the enemy's part. They make it so that reckless mixup and poor anti-wakeup calls get stuffed. It could be really dangerous on an already heavy character, to be sure, but you can also make it a terrible move to make a mistake with, like most DPs are. \

I will say that right now, Mewtwo feels like he could use a good "spacing" tool besides his projectiles, simply because he is a bit to slow to get up too close, his grab range means he actually likes more of a midrange feel, AND I have noticed that his ftilt misses when they are right beside him, meaning what I find to be his quickest footsie is actually not ready at point-blank, and I find his jab can be a bit too slow and too short reach, which the combination means it is much less effective a neutral and defensive tool than I'd expect for a slow grab-type character, but yet it can't be much faster as, like Ganondorf's, what it CAN do is quite potent. So, maybe let down-B be useful as a quicker, longer reach move that is more about an attempt to demand space somehow.

So yeah, spacing tool/potential for resetting game from defensive to neutral for Mewtwo. I'd rather have a good shine, but... I don't know what is good besides reflect to make an effective but not potentially broken one. At least not without removing any non-projectile related features so as to allow for less concerns about what it can do with other avenues.

 

[Mewter]

You mean like a tanking move? That would actually be a really good idea. I think I can do that. He would have kb armor up to a certain point, then he could have reduced knockback until a second point. To have him be able to resist something like a full samus shot would be a little much though.

Yeah, he can't completely resist fully charged aura spheres, arrows, or samus blasts, but I think the ability to temporarily tank weak projectiles like thunderjolt or spacie blaster shots without flinching would be massively cool for Mewtwo's Down B. Plus it stays true to the idea of Barrier/Reflect/Light Screen in the Pokemon games.
So Barrier would allow him to ignore knockback from weak projectiles and take reduced damage from all projectiles for a limited time. If Barrier sounds too spammable, it could require time to charge like Wario's Down B.

So some scenarios:
Imagine a Mewtwo rushing a blaster-spamming Falco through his shots, still taking some damage but ignoring knockback. Likewise with Samus shots, but a fully charged blast would only be slightly reduced by the Barrier, and Mewtwo would most of the damage and knockback (if they didn't dodge/shield and were caught unawares). It could last for five seconds, or just long enough to counter projectile spamming.

What does everyone else think about this?


Edit:
Also, Mewtwo's heal taunt (Down Taunt?) is wonky. At 4 or lower percentages, his % becomes negative, so while this taunt might not be commonly abused in this way, it's still possible.

Edit edit:
The Mega Punch FSmash is AWESOME. Animation can still be improved a bit but it's such a nice feeling to hit with it, like someone else said.

 

[Anonistry]

Actually... I take it back. Make his Down B pretty much like Zangief's Lariat or Green Hand: Make it move him forward and stuff a projectile IF it is weak enough, like above. The balance will be that although the recovery should not be slow, the move itself, like Lariat, is a bit long and should have poor range besides the movement, so basically it can be pulled out on projectiles, but using mis-timing it basically means it is a free hit, and so isn't really just for distance. Ultimately, I feel like Mewtwo should have a technical yet effective ground approach, as simply put his jump's floatiness, although made not an easy bullseye thanks to the newfound weight, STILL is not safe to use with some kind of vantage.

It could be REALLY interesting if you were to make it a bit of an anti-air as well, like somehow arc like a Flash Kick from Guile or something like that, or make the hitbox kind of large so it can get some diagonal attempts, and use some animation that would put Mewtwo's hand at a 45-ish degree angle and use some gfx for it. His response to air currently seems lackluster, and actually may be more of what I found to be his "poor defense" than necessarily actual responses to offense. Again, with his floaty and long jumps, he has too much risk in jumping to meet someone else in the air, or so it went with my playing tonight. It might be better to punish their aerials and then use that as an opportunity to get up. I THINK you could get the move to use both functions and not be too dangerous simply by ensuring it is not something you can throw out and expect to be safe from if you miss it, but it DOES need to come out quick enough that it can continue being pulled out against quicker projectiles like ZZS (Against Falco fast... I think we just need to find a way around it. No good mixture of startup and recovery could avoid being broken and yet still actually expect to seriously push against his lasers...)

EDIT: OH! I misunderstood the above suggestion until I read the post above. Huh. Very similar to mine, actually. Guess you might want to consider the difference between a passive shield (or something you channel as you move, not sure which) vs a push-through move similar to Lariat, though. Also think the AA feature I'd think would be nice is probably a bit more dangerous all around with a channelled or thrown-up passive... or maybe not, not sure.

I feel I am beginning to write essays here >.>

 

[Mewter]

Actually... I take it back. Make his Down B pretty much like Zangief's Lariat or Green Hand: Make it move him forward and stuff a projectile IF it is weak enough, like above.

[...]

Guess you might want to consider the difference between a passive shield (or something you channel as you move, not sure which) vs a push-through move similar to Lariat, though. Also think the AA feature I'd think would be nice is probably a bit more dangerous all around with a channelled or thrown-up passive... or maybe not, not sure.

I feel I am beginning to write essays here >.>

If I read this correctly, your idea is that Mewtwo would dash forward and capture the first projectile that he runs into? It's an interesting idea, and I think of an Ike SideB with the properties of Villager's pick up on the ground and ZSS's Brawl Down B in the air. Plus they would need a Pokemon move name.
Sorry, the post is a little long lol.

I think (or feel) that Mewtwo's air game is currently solid, but I could be wrong. His NAir, FAir, and DAir along with his great mobility and UpB make him a worthy Airdvesary. And BAir is good as keepaway.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Okeydokey. I just ran through some of Mewtwo's new changes. If I find any more, I'll post them later, but for now, here's what I got.

Spoiler

Barrier: This animation is tight as hell. The properties of the tanking/reflecting is kinda weird, but the knockback and damage are spot on. He can't JC it in the air at all, though; it just makes him sink. Oddly, it doesn't hit behind him anymore. Personally, I'd just shrink the graphic and make it frontal only. He would generate the Barrier in his hand. This would pack projectile tanking ability and the shine knockback. It is also conducive to his playstyle, as it is much more preferable to hit with the shine and SH into a Shadow Claw as opposed to shining then going for the weaker B-Air.

As a sort of related idea, here is a list of projectiles Psycho Cut clanks with. Almost all of these are safe blocks and should probably be used.

Mario and Luigi's Fireballs
Pikachu's Thundershock
Ness's PSI Fire and PSI Thunder
Lucas's PSI Freeze and PSI Thunder
Wolf's Blaster
Zero Suit Samus's Full Charged Paralyzer
Peach's Turnips except Stitch
Squirtle's Water Gun
Dedede's Waddle Toss except Gordo
Ivysaur's Razor Leaf and Seed Bomb
R.O.B's Gyros
Zelda's Din's Fire
Charizard's Flamethrower
Bowser's Fire Breath
Game and Watch's Chef
Pit's Light Arrow
Sheik's Needle Storm
Diddy Kong's Peanut Popgun
Link and Toon Link's Hero's Bow, Boomerang, and Bombs
Snake's M2 Frag Grenade and Nikita Missile

Teleport: This move is where it should be. Everything works as it should and it feels conducive to use. This is done.

Psycho Cut: I actually like the graphic. The only things that can be tweaked are the color of the graphic and the ability to hit adjacent. Once it can hit adjacent, this'll be done as well. Also, it hits OTG, which makes it really useful.

Something I noticed about Shadow Ball earlier in the previous build as well as this one. It cannot be shield cancelled in the air. His airdodge overrides the regular shield cancel and he carries momentum regularly. I'm not sure if this is intended, but it can be useful, considering you can smoothly waveland out of charge.

Also, I would have talked about Confusion, but as long as we have a functional Confusion on current Mewtwo, just focus on Psystrike and Psychic.

This is coming along nicely, everyone.

 

[Anonistry]

If I read this correctly, your idea is that Mewtwo would dash forward and capture the first projectile that he runs into? It's an interesting idea, and I think of an Ike SideB with the properties of Villager's pick up on the ground and ZSS's Brawl Down B in the air. Plus they would need a Pokemon move name.
Sorry, the post is a little long lol.

I think (or feel) that Mewtwo's air game is currently solid, but I could be wrong. His NAir, FAir, and DAir along with his great mobility and UpB make him a worthy Airdvesary. And BAir is good as keepaway.

Oh, its not lack of a solid airgame. Rather, I think he has issues getting into the air safely. Basically, as long as he can get in the air safely, or else is right under or above the opponent, I find him fine. But I feel like his ability to move towards an opponent is highly dependent on his setup beforehand, as I feel he lacks some effective method of dropping on them. That is not really much of an issue, especially if we can get this down-B to be where it needs to be.

The bigger issue is how he deals with those jumping in on him. I haven't really used Bair, so that may be something, but I don't think he can get a safe jump in easily if they already have the air. More so than others, anyways. And I feel his current response to any kind of angled or diagonal attempt from the air is lackluster. Really that is my biggest one. Still, I am sure there are ways to deal with it, and I kind of suspect whichever side-B gets picked will happen to be a decent tool there, so in the end I am really more concerned about how he deals with projectiles. He really just does not have the capacity to wage a projectile war, so getting the down-B right would be helpful.

Also, perhaps another thing, as a reward for a fully charged shadow ball, and kind of taking off the Tager projectile, is to make it beat all projectiles that it collides with. So none of the other goodies necessarily, but it still carries the threat of letting him defeat any projectile lockdown if they do not come to him first.

Most important, though, is psycho cut. The not hitting adjacent issue seems small, but I felt it pretty dang hard when I was playing. Silent but, honestly, real issue.

 

[Nguz95]

Now that's some serious discussion up there. I like the idea of shifting the hitboxes of the down-b to more of a forward movement, and I also like the idea of having it tank projectiles rather than reflecting them. I googled Zangief's green hand and it looked really good, so I might use that animation and have Mewtwo create a hitbox right as he starts turning (to keep the shine properties) and a later hitbox as his hand comes out. I also think Gigas' list of projectiles Psycho Cut can clank with is super (I want to stress SUPER) useful, as it can single-handedly eliminate projectile issues. Psycho cut is a frame 5 move, so it is really fast. I know it doesn't currently hit right next to you, so I will fix that. However, keep in mind that jab is a frame 4 move with similar power and more IASA frames. Using it in place of Psycho Cut in close situations might actually be a better idea.

In Melee, Mewtwo had ridiculously awful matchups against characters that could approach really well diagonally. Characters that could attack from directly above and in front of Mewtwo, like Peach, were at an enormous advantage because Mewtwo couldn't deal with it. He had no moves that could get them out of this area. His jump was too slow to get him up there fast enough, his utilt didn't have enough range, and his usmash only hit a small area around his head. I think this was what Anonistry and otheres were alluding to, and I think the answer might lie in his ftilt. I think I should make an animation that angles the ftilt up, but more so than his old ftilt. Then it would be a really good spacing tool against those diagonal approaches since it has good range, decent knockback, and low cooldown. I don't think this would completely alleviate the problem, but I think it would definitely help.

As for current progress, I am currently making animations for psycho cut. The move is coded and ready to go, I just need to animate it and find a good gfx for it. Remember the giant hand I was talking about? I am about to test it to see if it works. I wasn't sure if it was an external GFX or an article, since it came from an Assist Trophy (Issac), and it does behave like an article, but I think I have it pinned down as an external GFX. anyway, once I get it put in I am going to test it. If it works I will recolor the hand purple and make it slightly transparent. I will completely change the fsmash animation to add it in, and I will use it as the psystrike hit, since I didn't like the current animation in Black and White. I figured this would be ok since the only reference we have is from a ds game, and some moves, like Crunch, use similar animations to the one I have planned all the time.

Anyway, look forward to some Green Hands and giant purple smashes soon! I am going to first release the angled ftilt with the hand hitbox since that is the easiest thing to do. Then I will probably release Green Hand and Psystrike. I'm loving the discussion btw.

 

[Anonistry]

Oh, snap, win progress! And psycho cut can clank that many projectiles!?! Knowing that, and esp with a green hand type move... yeah, that should do it. Fantastically. Except Falco, but... yeah. Falco.

Interesting. Somehow jab feels slower than ftilt. Not sure why.

And that is EXACTLY what I meant, Nguz. Just making ftilt cover better should do wonders, and even looks like it should be the move for that.

Overall, great stuff to read. Got me hype!

 

[GigasOverlord]

I actually enjoy the idea of Banishing Flat on Mewtwo as long as it doesn't use the same animation. Banishing Flat is built for a bulkier character like Zangief or Colossus, not someone less physically oriented like Mewtwo. If it has the same properties as Banishing Flat, but a different animation, I think it would be better. I also don't like animations being shared in fighting games unless they are defined pseudo-clones, but that's my weird prerogative. That being said, here's an idea for it.

Down-B Barrier Flash: Mewtwo dashes forward slightly with his arm outstretched. During this, his palm begins emanating a blue sphere that destroys projectiles. I have no idea about the hitboxing on this one, because if the hitbox is too big, the graphic will swell in size and be like old Barrier. If the hitbox is too small, it won't block falling projectiles like arrows, bombs, and grenades. I think a medium sized hitbox that tanks projectiles that aren't blocked by Psycho Cut (which is coincidentally a pretty small list) would be the best course of action.

Angled Psycho Cut seems like it would be overpowered, but we can't test theory in a vacuum. I'll wait for the changes, then make a huge list analyzing it. For the adjacent hitboxing, make it a weaker hitbox that just happens to be there instead of a damaging hitbox that is intended to be used. That way, with smart play, you can potentially avoid damage, but it'll most likely happen anyway.

For the whole Isaac hand thing, I'll reserve my discussion until I see it, because the vision I have probably doesn't match up with yours. When it comes out, then I can piss and moan about it.

 

[Mewter]

Remember that Mewtwo's B moves should represent actual Pokemon moves.
And Psystrike in the (3)DS games (BW and XY) is an area of effect wave that causes purple matter to form around and swarm any targets around Mewtwo. A psystrike animation could work at the end of Mewtwo's final smash in place of the electric explosion.

 

[Anonistry]

I do actually agree, a banishing flat animation would seem... needlessly flashy considering how Mewtwo sort of has a "little physical exertion' theme going here. Either a simple outstretched hand, or even just reusing the Disable animation and dashing while doing so, would be more appropriate.

I could see the concern with ftilt being angled, as it certainly goes from no AA to some rather fast response. Actually, as Giga pointed out, it can currently OTG. Suddenly, he can just spam that against air, because now they fall, hit ground/get hit again based on falling speed, AND THEN during the ONE time they could use to get out... yet another. Honestly, given his jab, I think it and his ftilt are slightly redundant in some situations, given close speeds, ranges, with the biggest difference being ftilt damage. Maybe it might be better to change it too. Make it so that it is sort of a flash kick gfx, although again without the physical aspect, and make it sort of a parallel instead of perpendicular cut. Then, make it slower but maybe slightly longer range yet. Perhaps make it evocative of lightscreen or something like that.

I do have yet another idea, and it would be for down-b again (I'm going to hit these until we are sure it shores up big weaknesses without too much damage.) Ironically, given that, it is probably horrible, but it sounds cool . Rip off of Urien from SF3, and use something like his Aegis Reflector. Create a sort of lightscreen (earlier mention made me think of this, actually.) It spawns a little bit away from Mewtwo, and lasts for a little bit. It would be such that it comes out fairly fast, but again, slow recovery. Its hitbox would be such that if he has good reaction, he can catch an air attempt early, but doesn't quite have some fantastic on-hit response, especially given how the closer an enemy is to him when he has the advantage, the better for him, as even being within possible grab range means they are in danger. So, instead of him advancing on the down-b, the screen projectile advances, and it should give some space for him to sort of edge further. The closer he is, the more careful he'll need to be until he has better options at beating any zoning. It could survive a couple of hits and then disappear, just like the reflector.

Here's the thing. And this is a big one. Aegis Reflector is actually a SUPER move in SF3. Why? Is it the damage it does, the space it creates? Actually, it has a much more frightening function. Due to blocking in that game, getting hit in both directions is all but impossible to guard. Aegis allows Urien to set up unblockables AND force a tight corridor the opponent must stay in. Now, given the more rounded shield of this game, this particular scenario is not as applicable, but it STILL would present a rather significant spacing tool that also can be used to force some particularly nasty combos on the foe. It also probably could be used to somehow give him some surprisingly strong, free zoning with his projectiles.

So... yeah. I realize it probably won't work. Still, cool designs didn't come from considering these things, eh? I only mention it because I feel somehow, there is a way to do this, and be awesome and so useful... yet not be as bad as it sounds to me. The biggest one would probably be making it disappear the moment he gets hit, and making it not do damage until fully setup (BUT the anti-projectile feature should be all but immediate.) SO, if close enough for him to use it, and he does not somehow already have safety, he'll likely get hit before it even becomes an actual presence. Also, the shorter a distance from him it goes... probably the better. Granted, if he begins a combo, being close will mean easier time using it. But, then he'll already be comboing, whereas a further distance one steps further into that fear I have of also a ridiculous spacing tool and kind of box that the enemy must stay in. I feel the worst thing that could happen is, like Urien, it would be easy to get the screen past the opponent, so he is between Mewtwo and the screen. If that is avoided, and we can distinguish a fast anti-projectile presence with a useful but slow damage/anti-air setup, it could actually be made to work. Maybe.

Or just make ftilt slightly different to be more of a key defensive tactic instead of both fast, damaging, and able to clash projectiles AND anti-air. At its current speed, all of that would in fact make it a broken move. Maybe not even a broken character, but the move itself just becomes the go-to besides grabbing.

 

[Mewter]

Mewtwo's Ftilt is good the way it is in Melee imo.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Yeah. Psycho Cut probably won't even come close to super OP-ness given smart enemy DI. Horizontal is fine, given that a vertical slash on Psycho Cut would to nothing to alleviate the diagonal game, then we'd need to make that angled, and suddenly OP. If we want to keep the angle and lessen the OP, the only thing I could think of is slowing the animation, but increasing the hitbox duration so it acts as more of a Clanker instead of an attack. Also, you play a lot of Street Fighter, don't you, Anonistry?

I still stick by my original Barrier idea of projecting a rectangular shield in front of him that tanks projectiles. It'd be an arm's length away, use his old Jab animation, and have about 30% before it breaks. Knockback, damage, and JC would be as it is now, just less flashy and more canon. I do like his Barrier animation now, though, even though it harkens more to the anime than the games.

 

[Nguz95]

Spoiler

I actually enjoy the idea of Banishing Flat on Mewtwo as long as it doesn't use the same animation. Banishing Flat is built for a bulkier character like Zangief or Colossus, not someone less physically oriented like Mewtwo. If it has the same properties as Banishing Flat, but a different animation, I think it would be better. I also don't like animations being shared in fighting games unless they are defined pseudo-clones, but that's my weird prerogative. That being said, here's an idea for it.

Down-B Barrier Flash: Mewtwo dashes forward slightly with his arm outstretched. During this, his palm begins emanating a blue sphere that destroys projectiles. I have no idea about the hitboxing on this one, because if the hitbox is too big, the graphic will swell in size and be like old Barrier. If the hitbox is too small, it won't block falling projectiles like arrows, bombs, and grenades. I think a medium sized hitbox that tanks projectiles that aren't blocked by Psycho Cut (which is coincidentally a pretty small list) would be the best course of action.

Angled Psycho Cut seems like it would be overpowered, but we can't test theory in a vacuum. I'll wait for the changes, then make a huge list analyzing it. For the adjacent hitboxing, make it a weaker hitbox that just happens to be there instead of a damaging hitbox that is intended to be used. That way, with smart play, you can potentially avoid damage, but it'll most likely happen anyway.

For the whole Isaac hand thing, I'll reserve my discussion until I see it, because the vision I have probably doesn't match up with yours. When it comes out, then I can piss and moan about it.

That's a pretty good animation idea. I think I might try something similar, except he pivots instead of dashes. That allows me to restrict his movement more, and it keeps the move from looking like his dash attack. I also like the idea of a rectangular graphic, which comes from your above post, but I would need to find an external gfx, since most graphics in brawl are round. I might have to sub a small orb in until I find the right graphic. I think we can do the tanking idea, but it might be mostly kb armor.

 

[Nguz95]

Mewtwo's Ftilt is good the way it is in Melee imo.

A fair point, and i also agree with your post about making sure his move are actual pokemon moves. I think I might have to find another move for the charge move unless I can make this other idea work. I was thinking I could have Mewtwo generate a wall of hits of purple energy. It would appear hit by hit, but it would be fast enough that the overall effect is that of a wall. I can't make the graphic surround the opponent, which is unfortunate, but I think this would fit psystrike better than anything else.

About his ftilt: i agree it was good in melee. I just figured we could try something new. If we don't like it, we can change it back. That's why i have 10 of my previous versions on my computer. Project M does have more mid and heavyweights, so i figured for the move to have the same identity it would need to be a little more powerful. I may have gone overboard though. It still has the same range of Melee, it just comes out at a more horizontal angle.

 

[Anonistry]

Yeah. Psycho Cut probably won't even come close to super OP-ness given smart enemy DI. Horizontal is fine, given that a vertical slash on Psycho Cut would to nothing to alleviate the diagonal game, then we'd need to make that angled, and suddenly OP. If we want to keep the angle and lessen the OP, the only thing I could think of is slowing the animation, but increasing the hitbox duration so it acts as more of a Clanker instead of an attack. Also, you play a lot of Street Fighter, don't you, Anonistry?

I still stick by my original Barrier idea of projecting a rectangular shield in front of him that tanks projectiles. It'd be an arm's length away, use his old Jab animation, and have about 30% before it breaks. Knockback, damage, and JC would be as it is now, just less flashy and more canon. I do like his Barrier animation now, though, even though it harkens more to the anime than the games.

I tend to play quite a few fighting games, although not really to any pro degree of skill or anything. Smash Bros is easily one of my top 5 games, however, but given it is closer to a fighting game than much anything else, I don't mind throwing out things I think can be made to work.

I think you and I have a pretty close idea on barrier there. So your version would be passive or would it be a dash? And what is everyone's thought on my Aegis Reflector-esque version? Too difficult to make work? Hell, could it even be done? I can't think of any self-standing projectile of the top of my head, so I wouldn't even know if it was possible to code in...

On ftilt... I do think this looks cooler. And I think it is good, just right now its purpose is a little bit... cohabitated by his new jab. The projectile clanking feature is also useful, even if we get the down-b where we want it to be. Honestly, I myself think, with this jab, a slower, more clankable angled ftilt would be best, same as Gigas suggested. Hell, it could be the tail or whatever looks coolest, but... yeah. I vaguely recall the original ftilt, so my memory may not be the best, tbh. Nonetheless... it actually probably would more distinct as it is than the current one from jab. Comes out sudden, more reach... more of a footsie tool than anything. And, though the ftilt animation currently looks cool, the tail actually may be more useful because of its more choreographed range. You'd think this would be bad, but for something like this, it may be better to let the opponent know they need to stay away... I say make it more like the old ftilt, but still add some graphic to kind of look like a psychic cut or something like that. And maybe a tiny bit more reach. I think the speed, if I recall it correctly, should be fine though. We could angle it, but that might look a might bit silly.

Now that I think of it... shouldn't we just make his utilt behave right? I feel like it should do AA fine, it just could use some extra reach and maybe a little bit of speed. Add a little cutting animation to it?

EDIT: Hmm, according to the first post the current ftilt is supposed to be the same in most cases... So yeah, I say slower, clankable ftilt, and perhaps switch to the old tail graphic, and somehow add a little cutting animation with a tad bit more reach. Then it becomes a clanker and a footsie tool, and let jab serve as fast, close range poke and knockback. And let utilt get some love so it can perform AA.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I disagree with the Aegis Reflector idea. I have played 3rd strike before so I know which move you are talking. It would make tech chasing super easy. Mewtwo's opponents (even the ones with projectiles) would have a hard time approaching. It just sounds overpowered to me. But you probaly see it way differently.

I don't know what to say about angled Ftilt. I am guessing Mewtwo is going to get a new Utilt in the future anyways. The new Utilt can hit opponents diagonally.

I like sticking with barrier

 

[Anonistry]

Ha, it def would be likely to break. Still, allow me to try a version that may work

So, you are M2. You use down b, and immediately the barrier comes out. From this moment it can absorb projectiles, up to a certain value of damage, and then it breaks.

Now the important part: it does NOT become a damaging object immediately. Instead, the feature takes a bit of time, as portrayed by a color change or extra gfx. It should be enough time that it can't really catch any techs, and enough time that a barrier without setup gets punished. Big part here: if M2 gets hit, the barrier disappears. Maybe only before it hits damage, so it stays set up when done correctly, but... what is balanced is most important.

Perhaps it could be made to have little to no knockback, so it can be plowed through, but still sets up a good combo. It also should not be too powerful or have near as much life as the real Aegis. Also, what angle it is best at should considered. As well as how far it should spawn. Maybe make it go forward a bit before it finalizes.

... Yeah, def complicated. Not like barrier as proposed isn't awesome anyways, just felt this could seem fitting on M2.

EDIT: OR, even crazier... no damage at all. Instead, after the final step, it "hardens", and becomes a hard object, preventing movement. During that time, a clever M2 could hopefully find a way to setup some chain that functions on stopped horizontal kb. Although making that not be problematic as an approach tool seems... difficult.

 

[Mewter]

EDIT: OR, even crazier... no damage at all. Instead, after the final step, it "hardens", and becomes a hard object, preventing movement. During that time, a clever M2 could hopefully find a way to setup some chain that functions on stopped horizontal kb. Although making that not be problematic as an approach tool seems... difficult.

This doesn't sound like it fits in Smash Bros.
Or solid walls in general. A reflective but non-movement prohibiting one like Gardevoir's maybe, but not a solid one that sits there while you move around.

Edit:
-I don't see the need for more than 1 shine move.

-I support a wall barrier as long as it's like Pit's shield or Gardevoir's bubble, but also still pushing the passive body armor Barrier idea.
GO's Wall Barrier (if it is a wall) should do damage, maybe on start up like spacies' shine or on ending (a "shatter") like Lucas' absorb. Mewtwo already has so many more attack moves and barrier shouldn't be unnecessarily powerful. Mewtwo might have to carry the barrier in front of him (limiting movement) and when it breaks it deals some AoE damage to everyone around it, including Mewtwo.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Yeah, my proposed idea for Barrier was originally projecting a static article onto the battlefield that stays and absorbs attacks, but I'm pretty sure that it's a coding nightmare. If it could work, I'm pretty sure that it would be the final version of Barrier. Being able to space from behind a projectile shield would make Mewtwo more zoner-esque, but that is a welcome change.

For the whole F-Tilt/Jab situation, many characters with angled F-Tilts work along the same paradigm. Ganondorf, Bowser, Ike, hell, even Fox and Falco can find their moves being mooted by the same options. For the animation, I don't think that the tail clanked any projectiles when it existed. If it came back, it would be too low to clank most projectiles, anyways. We've come far enough, might as well leave it. The disjoint is still useful to Mewtwo's spacing game and it keeps opponents away well enough without having direct indicators. For my direct thoughts on it, "Keep it the way it is, make it angle-able, slow it down but make it longer, but also reduce the hitbox so it doesn't hit OTG." Not being able to OTG off of Psycho Cut would shut down a lot of his close range pressure options and force him to work on a grab.

With regards to Psystrike, I know the Pokemon canon and properties of the move. If we want to make it more to canon, we should probably just drop it and work solely on Psychic. If it's not going to be a huge psychic slash, the only thing I could think of would be that he grabs his opponent with his Confusion animation, generates a whole bunch of Toon Link bomb hitboxes, then the final hit knocks the opponent away at a similar angle of his F-Throw.

Final thoughts, if Psycho Cut stays the way it is, keep Barrier as a shine move. Having two projectile shields, one of which is only good for blocking Fox and Falco, is redundant. Keep Psycho Cut as a clanker, and have Barrier as the offensive move that it is.

 

[Nguz95]

Why don't we just change the name from psystrike to future sight? A charge move sounds like it fits future sight better anyway.also, the animation for future sight is kind of vague we can go a few directions with it. I'm just trying to make it more canon so we can implement the move. I think it would add a useful buff to a character lacking in kill power.

 

[Nguz95]

Spoiler

Ha, it def would be likely to break. Still, allow me to try a version that may work

So, you are M2. You use down b, and immediately the barrier comes out. From this moment it can absorb projectiles, up to a certain value of damage, and then it breaks.

Now the important part: it does NOT become a damaging object immediately. Instead, the feature takes a bit of time, as portrayed by a color change or extra gfx. It should be enough time that it can't really catch any techs, and enough time that a barrier without setup gets punished. Big part here: if M2 gets hit, the barrier disappears. Maybe only before it hits damage, so it stays set up when done correctly, but... what is balanced is most important.

Perhaps it could be made to have little to no knockback, so it can be plowed through, but still sets up a good combo. It also should not be too powerful or have near as much life as the real Aegis. Also, what angle it is best at should considered. As well as how far it should spawn. Maybe make it go forward a bit before it finalizes.

... Yeah, def complicated. Not like barrier as proposed isn't awesome anyways, just felt this could seem fitting on M2.

EDIT: OR, even crazier... no damage at all. Instead, after the final step, it "hardens", and becomes a hard object, preventing movement. During that time, a clever M2 could hopefully find a way to setup some chain that functions on stopped horizontal kb. Although making that not be problematic as an approach tool seems... difficult.

Your ideas, as usual, are really cool. It's great to have someone who has a lot of experience in fighting games give input. However, i think this particular idea might be a little out there. I don't think i can code it, and i think it might break the character since walls in general break smash games. That's ok, because the banishing flat idea I have is going to be sweet.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Was finally able to try the newest version! I know these guys have been troubleshooting and coming up with new ideas with you, but here's my short take on the things anyway.

* really like the new Barrier effects. I know the move itself is going through changes, and maybe the effects are too, but I think you've done a great job so far.
* Mega Punch feels a lot stronger with the screen shake. Might I suggest a strong, but singular, rumble on the controller, too?

I'm also trying out this pack that I had shown before here (well, just the 00 skin). The rig seems bad, but most of the texture is good, so I'm going to try importing it over yours in the download and see if it works. I'll post here with the results (and the modified texture if things go well).

EDIT: I was surprised to find that yours are the exact same thing. haha Does the one in the download have rigging problems with the tail and the arms? Mine does, although I would think you did something to yours if it doesn't. I'll try it later.

 

[Anonistry]

Its cool. I think a fittingly animated banishing flat will be more than fine anyways, and it should mesh fine with a clanking ftilt since they perform two different anti-projectile functions (approach vs. stuffing.) Rather nice to see Gigas and I apparently had a similar idea (Guess I only just now understood what you were going for there, sorry Gigas...) though my version would be more intended for an approach tool for grab reach whereas his could give a more zoner feel (or so I think.)

If there is one thing I'd like to see out of Mewtwo, it is to be a more "careful" and setup-based grappler (something I think you could only really create in an SSB environ, actually, can't think of a standard fighter equivalent.) I'd love to see the PM crew make either DeDeDe or Bowser fully incarnate a more classic Zangief-esque style of catching up to them, whereas Mewtwo kind of would be more about forcing the enemy to him or into a place he can reach. But banishing flat still can accomplish that quite well, since sometimes the best place is halfway... And I think otherwise his set is kind of going for that, what between anti-projectiles, his own projectile, and moves that seem to generally be good but require him to be in position in the first place, given his less than stellar mobility. I really look forward to seeing where this ends up.

I kind of disagree on the lack of killing power, I have to admit. A fully charged shadowball, an fsmash or dsmash, and his uthrow a bthrow all are currently quite potent at getting rid of someone, and he has plenty of moves to get them there, from chain grabs to his jab and ftilt and his usmash, as well as much of his aerial game. Psystrike/Future Sight/Charge Side B likely will be an awesome addition even if I'd prefer the command grab, but I think it'll be more because charge moves can do cool things as opposed to any need killing move. And this is coming from a guy who otherwise counts Bowser and Ganondorf as his favorites, where just about any move can finish you!

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

A wall doesn't really seem like a move a grappler would do. Plus, a wall doesn't bring enemies closer to you. A grappler is the most effective up close. That is how all grapplers work as far as I know. If I wanted a character to be like a grappler, I want him/her to be like Cerebella from Skullgirls. She is the most well designed grappler in fighting games.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

A wall doesn't really seem like a move a grappler would do. Plus, a wall doesn't bring enemies closer to you. A grappler is the most effective up close. That is how all grapplers work as far as I know. If I wanted a character to be like a grappler, I want him/her to be like Cerebella from Skullgirls. She is the most well designed grappler in fighting games.

 

[GigasOverlord]

For Future Sight, I highly doubt that an autofire placed projectile would be possible? If it is, something mimicking Mu-12's Drive from Blazblue would fit Mewtwo perfectly because it allows him a basic small projectile that opens up dumb opponents for a grab. Anyways, for FS, it should be charge only/needs to have a full charge. It emphasizes the "future" part of the attack, and allows Mewtwo more of that control/enemy placement forcing that strengthens his grab game. Otherwise, it would just be another fast KO-ish move that could be used whenever.

For Future Sight, would the animation and properties be the same as Psystrike? Anonistry kind of opened my eyes to what a move should be doing for Mewtwo and how I play Mewtwo myself. I use deliberate placement to control my opponent's space and range until I'm safe for a grab. Until then, I continually rack damage. I also don't think Mewtwo needs any more KO moves. Right now, we have F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Throw, B-Throw, F-Air, D-Air, and Shadow Ball. That's not even counting F-Tilt for safe onstage gimping and B-Air and N-Air for slightly less safe offstage gimping.

I think we should worry less about F-Tilt and Barrier because we have already put a lot of ideas out there for Nguz to consider, and instead think about what we'd like to see from Psystrike/Future Sight. I say this because I have no damn idea and someone might put me on the right track.

 

[Mewter]

I agree with Anonistry and GigasOverlord. Mewtwo already has KO moves.

A future sight used like Zelda's Din's Fire (but longer lasting, moving or something) that deals a little damage and stun might be favorable. It could even explode after a set amount of time and deal damage within a reasonable radius, but not have any killing power before hand.

Or maybe for even more of a change, future sight can be navigated like Din's Fire and exploded on demand by pressing Side B again?

I'm not sure how hard it would be for you to make this Nguz, but would it be possible to transfer the various parts of these attacks over from other characters in order to make a future sight like this?

Its flexibility with placement allows fun and manipulation of the battlefield for Mewtwo (like Zelda and Snake already have) but in his own style.

 

[PseudoTypical]

I used the HD Melee Mewtwo for quite a while today and these are my findings:

* there's a hole on each side of him that is usually blocked by his arms (where the sockets are).
* occasionally, he'll get this odd gray discoloration in one of his hands.
* his tail isn't rigged right (although I know you can fix that).
* hands and neck are kind of weird (neck might just be from rigging problems, but the fingertips are simply wrong).
* there's an inconsistency in the shading between his limbs/torso and stomach area

Otherwise, I think it's really good! I don't know if there's someone we could just hand it off to for a fix, but I think it's even better than Starwaffle's, and it should be easier for re-rigging as far as I understand.

 

[Anonistry]

For Future Sight, I highly doubt that an autofire placed projectile would be possible? If it is, something mimicking Mu-12's Drive from Blazblue would fit Mewtwo perfectly because it allows him a basic small projectile that opens up dumb opponents for a grab. Anyways, for FS, it should be charge only/needs to have a full charge. It emphasizes the "future" part of the attack, and allows Mewtwo more of that control/enemy placement forcing that strengthens his grab game. Otherwise, it would just be another fast KO-ish move that could be used whenever.

For Future Sight, would the animation and properties be the same as Psystrike? Anonistry kind of opened my eyes to what a move should be doing for Mewtwo and how I play Mewtwo myself. I use deliberate placement to control my opponent's space and range until I'm safe for a grab. Until then, I continually rack damage. I also don't think Mewtwo needs any more KO moves. Right now, we have F-Smash, D-Smash, U-Smash, U-Throw, B-Throw, F-Air, D-Air, and Shadow Ball. That's not even counting F-Tilt for safe onstage gimping and B-Air and N-Air for slightly less safe offstage gimping.

I think we should worry less about F-Tilt and Barrier because we have already put a lot of ideas out there for Nguz to consider, and instead think about what we'd like to see from Psystrike/Future Sight. I say this because I have no damn idea and someone might put me on the right track.

Oh wow. Like, wow. The sheer irony of Steiner being for a grappler type character is delicious. But that also sounds cool. If that were his side-B, I'd find it actually making the call between the two versions tough.

@AFRO So what is Cerebella like? I've heard good things about her as a grappler, and about the game in general, but I have as yet to play it...

 

[Nguz95]

I used the HD Melee Mewtwo for quite a while today and these are my findings:

* there's a hole on each side of him that is usually blocked by his arms (where the sockets are).
* occasionally, he'll get this odd gray discoloration in one of his hands.
* his tail isn't rigged right (although I know you can fix that).
* hands and neck are kind of weird (neck might just be from rigging problems, but the fingertips are simply wrong).
* there's an inconsistency in the shading between his limbs/torso and stomach area

Otherwise, I think it's really good! I don't know if there's someone we could just hand it off to for a fix, but I think it's even better than Starwaffle's, and it should be easier for re-rigging as far as I understand.

You are right that it would be easier to re-rig, but if I ever figure das donkey, which could happen, I would just need to straighten out the tail using vertices and then add the right bones. Having looked at the fingers a lot while making animations, I can say that the bones are fine, but the model around them is not. The neck, on the other hand, might not be fixable. I have noticed the holes by his arms, but I did not notice the discoloration. Good catch! At the moment I have 0 experience with modeling, and I haven't touched any of the models on brawl vault. However, since I am not making great progress on his b moves now, maybe I should start looking how to change the models, since the number of things I need to do there are very few in number. What I had planned was to do the remodel after I was finished coding the majority of his new moves. I don't know, they both need to be done, so maybe I could spend some time on rigging too...

 

[Nguz95]

I agree with Anonistry and GigasOverlord. Mewtwo already has KO moves.

A future sight used like Zelda's Din's Fire (but longer lasting, moving or something) that deals a little damage and stun might be favorable. It could even explode after a set amount of time and deal damage within a reasonable radius, but not have any killing power before hand.

Or maybe for even more of a change, future sight can be navigated like Din's Fire and exploded on demand by pressing Side B again?

I'm not sure how hard it would be for you to make this Nguz, but would it be possible to transfer the various parts of these attacks over from other characters in order to make a future sight like this?

Its flexibility with placement allows fun and manipulation of the battlefield for Mewtwo (like Zelda and Snake already have) but in his own style.

Unfortunately Din's fire is an article. Changing those is really difficult. I wish I could, because it really would add to him as a character, but I don't think I can do it.

 

[PseudoTypical]

You are right that it would be easier to re-rig, but if I ever figure das donkey, which could happen, I would just need to straighten out the tail using vertices and then add the right bones. Having looked at the fingers a lot while making animations, I can say that the bones are fine, but the model around them is not. The neck, on the other hand, might not be fixable. I have noticed the holes by his arms, but I did not notice the discoloration. Good catch! At the moment I have 0 experience with modeling, and I haven't touched any of the models on brawl vault. However, since I am not making great progress on his b moves now, maybe I should start looking how to change the models, since the number of things I need to do there are very few in number. What I had planned was to do the remodel after I was finished coding the majority of his new moves. I don't know, they both need to be done, so maybe I could spend some time on rigging too...

No clue what "das donkey" is, but okay! haha

That's what I meant to say about the fingers, although I also meant that it wasn't accurate to the character.

I agree that these problems seem way easier to solve than the ones you've already run into. Both the model and the moveset are pretty functional right now, so do what you want to do! Maybe taking a break from the coding will give you a new perspective.

 

[Nguz95]

No clue what "das donkey" is, but okay! haha

That's what I meant to say about the fingers, although I also meant that it wasn't accurate to the character.

I agree that these problems seem way easier to solve than the ones you've already run into. Both the model and the moveset are pretty functional right now, so do what you want to do! Maybe taking a break from the coding will give you a new perspective.

Das Donkey is what people use to create new models so they can put textures on it. Sorry about that. If you send me a download via PM of the Mewtwo Shun did for you I will see what I can do. I really like that texture, so I would be happy to try to fix it.

 

[PseudoTypical]

Das Donkey is what people use to create new models so they can put textures on it. Sorry about that. If you send me a download via PM of the Mewtwo Shun did for you I will see what I can do. I really like that texture, so I would be happy to try to fix it.

Oh, alright. Odd name for it.

I'm actually away from my desktop at the moment, but he put it in his OP for everyone to use!

 

[Nguz95]

Oh, alright. Odd name for it.

I'm actually away from my desktop at the moment, but he put it in his OP for everyone to use!

Awesome! I'll check it out. I have no idea who made the name, it makes me laugh every time.

 

[PseudoTypical]

So I tried to find out where these textures originally came from (I had a hard time believing that someone would go to all this work and leave the model like that. I was right! haha), and found this:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-hq-texture.294545/

The guy's no longer active, it seems. However, this confirms that it was based on the Melee Mewtwo directly. If we could get a hold of a Mewtwo model that works flawlessly with the original Mewtwo PSA, we should be good to go!

EDIT: no other resources for the files now, either. It was all on MegaUpload before.

 

[Mewter]

So I tried to find out where these textures originally came from (I had a hard time believing that someone would go to all this work and leave the model like that. I was right! haha), and found this:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-hq-texture.294545/

The guy's no longer active, it seems. However, this confirms that it was based on the Melee Mewtwo directly. If we could get a hold of a Mewtwo model that works flawlessly with the original Mewtwo PSA, we should be good to go!

EDIT: no other resources for the files now, either. It was all on MegaUpload before.

@Dmickolas
http://www.mediafire.com/?0n3e7r3g2sh1xe7
http://www.mediafire.com/?87azmbxja7hxk78
http://www.mediafire.com/?2db83td0r2ew2t2
http://www.mediafire.com/?2db83td0r2ew2t2
http://www.mediafire.com/?8zhhs0f6znxn20a

Do you still get tail problems with these versions of the model?
(They are modified versions of the HD Mewtwo model).

 

[PseudoTypical]

@Dmickolas
http://www.mediafire.com/?0n3e7r3g2sh1xe7
http://www.mediafire.com/?87azmbxja7hxk78
http://www.mediafire.com/?2db83td0r2ew2t2
http://www.mediafire.com/?2db83td0r2ew2t2
http://www.mediafire.com/?8zhhs0f6znxn20a

Do you still get tail problems with these versions of the model?
(They are modified versions of the HD Mewtwo model).

I'll have to try these! Unfortunately I can't right now, but I'll make sure to ASAP (probably tomorrow).

I'm guessing you replaced the textures of the model from the Mewtwo PSA with the ones in the HD model? That's what I was going to try.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I will give a basic explanation of what Cerebella is about. Cerebella has command grabs (of course) and special moves with super armor. She is a monster when it comes to damage and just being up close. She has a run that contains 1 point of super armor, a glide, and a projectile reflect that staggers that helps fight zoners like Peacock. She is no joke when it comes to resets too. Overall, I think she is a unique grappler. Sorry if my explanation wasn't very good or didn't really help. There is a lot of gameplay for her on youtube if you want to check her out.

I was thinking Mewtwo can have something similar to Cerebella's Lock and load move (A rushing punch that contains super armor). Basically a super armor attack.