Project M Mewtwo: A Balancing Project

[Shun_one]

Thank you so much! I appreciate your compliment and your offer. Thank you again for your generosity. Feel free to comment with any moveset ideas you may have; I'm always up for criticism. Just so you know, i'm working on a Mewtwo model that is the same as the regular model, but with an extra tail bone. I might use starwaffle's as a base. When I finish I can send you it if you want to use that one for your recolors?

Why not? I don't mind helping you out with your custom model as well as Star Waffles and Melee Mewtwo. Can't say what order I'll get to 'em though.

 

[Mewter]

Just remember that Psystrike is an area-of-effect move!

I just tried out your latest version, Nguz. I'm not sure what move Mewtwo's down B is supposed to look like, and ending it feels very abrupt, especially when spamming it over and over. It also looks ugly to me (movement and effects).
The shake on side and down smashes is good.
Side smash has a wonky animation, and his hand looks weird. There's a Mewtwo animation from Pokemon Stadium when using physical attacks that you can use as a reference for a Mewtwo punch. Mega punch is a good idea though and helps show off Mewtwo's physical side.
Side Tilt's animation for the slash: Mewtwo's arm wave does not look quick or forceful enough. Psycho cut slash texture doesn't show on up-side and down-side tilts unless they hit. Texture is too big and covers a horizontal area that the attack doesn't actually affect.
Aerial side A feels like its reach is too long.
Side B in the air robs Mewtwo of any actions, like using teleport.
Side B should bounce Mewtwo in the air.
Side smash's flame/darkness is too big.
Up smash's arm is still way too slow.
Dash seems smoother.
Jab without indicator is great imo.
Teleport was perfect in the previous version imo. It's way too hard to choose a downward direction.
Up tilt was good the way it was. In the current version it's hard to tell what's going on and it feels clumsy.
Starwaffle Mewtwo looks good for an original model but is awkward-looking compared to Melee's model, and doesn't work correctly with the tail attacks.

Good job, overall! I understand it's a proto-build and I hope you get the new side B working and fix everything up.

 

[GigasOverlord]

Mewter's comment made me go and watch some Pokemon Stadium videos on Youtube, and I must say, the animation of him using Psychic would be perfect for Mega Punch. Just remove the action for his off hand and it's perfect. Also for animations, his battle enter animation from Stadium would make a perfect entry animation.

 

[Nguz95]

Spoiler

Just remember that Psystrike is an area-of-effect move!

I just tried out your latest version, Nguz. I'm not sure what move Mewtwo's down B is supposed to look like, and ending it feels very abrupt, especially when spamming it over and over. It also looks ugly to me (movement and effects).
The shake on side and down smashes is good.
Side smash has a wonky animation, and his hand looks weird. There's a Mewtwo animation from Pokemon Stadium when using physical attacks that you can use as a reference for a Mewtwo punch. Mega punch is a good idea though and helps show off Mewtwo's physical side.
Side Tilt's animation for the slash: Mewtwo's arm wave does not look quick or forceful enough. Psycho cut slash texture doesn't show on up-side and down-side tilts unless they hit. Texture is too big and covers a horizontal area that the attack doesn't actually affect.
Aerial side A feels like its reach is too long.
Side B in the air robs Mewtwo of any actions, like using teleport.
Side B should bounce Mewtwo in the air.
Side smash's flame/darkness is too big.
Up smash's arm is still way too slow.
Dash seems smoother.
Jab without indicator is great imo.
Teleport was perfect in the previous version imo. It's way too hard to choose a downward direction.
Up tilt was good the way it was. In the current version it's hard to tell what's going on and it feels clumsy.
Starwaffle Mewtwo looks good for an original model but is awkward-looking compared to Melee's model, and doesn't work correctly with the tail attacks.

Good job, overall! I understand it's a proto-build and I hope you get the new side B working and fix everything up.

I know exactly what you mean. The animations were hard for me, as this was my first time making truly custom animations. I'm not really satisfied with both of the animations I made, including the GFX. I think I am going to increase the duration of barrier. Unfortunately I can't make it a hold move like other shines without some serious recoding, which I'm happy to do if everybody really badly wants it. I don't see the need for it, but maybe I'm wrong. I see barrier as a Naryu's love that can be jump-canceled.

In terms of the aerial side-b, that move will be totally different regardless of which move I choose, so I wouldn't worry about its issues now. Psystrike is only useful if it's fully charged, otherwise it's a woefully weak and short-ranged move. It's definitely not going to be a projectile, but rather a short-ranged ko move similar to Ike's neutral b. Psychic would feel very similar to the current side-b, except you would halt your momentum in the air while you preform the desired throw like Lucario's aerial force palm. It would allow for some sweet offstage gimps.

Here's what I'm going to do: I am going to quickly release a version that fixes all the small things that you guys noticed, then I'm going to get to work testing both of the side-b options. I will release two versions. The first one will have psystrike, since I know I can code that move, while the second will have psychic, which will require me to figure out throw collisions. We can have a poll and decide which one to keep.

 

[Nguz95]

http://youtu.be/UZl-kQ3JFNI
Fixed the knockback and the reflect on barrier. I just need to resize some hitboxes, fix the graphic and I'm done with that move. I changed the shine kb to match wolf, and boy is it powerful. I'm super hyped actually. Bair shine jc fair is so good it's not even funny. I even got off a fully charged shadow ball out of the shine. Seriously this move is absurdly good. Right now he feels like a slow heavy spacie, and boy is it a good feeling. Check the thread later today for a new release!

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I tried out the new Mewtwo. The issues are pretty much stated in GigasOverlord's post. I didn't find anything new that needed to be fixed.

 

[Nguz95]

...I haven't released any changes yet...
I am currently testing the fixed version out now. I put up that last post to let you guys know I am making progress. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I meant the current one not the fixed one. I was saying that I agree with GigasOverlord's post on what needed to be adjusted. ... Then again my post was a bit late so I see why there is some confusion. My bad on that one.

 

[_R@bid_]

I just tried out the most recent version. Some thoughts:
Jab: Perfect.
DTilt: Finished.
FTilt: Cool idea, but needs polish. The graphic is misplaced, and quite frankly doesn't look good. While the game's default graphics do work well most of the time, both this slash graphic and down B's graphic effect really seem out of place and very much below the standard of the rest of the move set. It's a lot more work, but I recommend making a custom graphic for both yourself and putting it in. The moves will look much more professional that way. While I don't do PSA, I do believe you can make custom effects, which I think are called external graphic effects. I'm sure there are tutorials on Kitty Corp that could help you if you aren't familiar with them. FTilt's would be a much smaller and cleaned up slash effect like the animation in the games, while Down B's would be a large blue orb around himself just like in the movie.
UTilt: Love the new animation, but it is really hard to hit with. Either give the hitboxes a visual indicator, or move them to fully cover him and the area above him.
USmash, DSmash: Done.
FSmash: This looks pretty awesome, and is really satisfying to land. Just one weird bug. If the opponent is really close to you, they will get harmlessly pushed back by M2's fist without ever getting hit. Give him some hitboxes closer to himself as well.
Aerials: Done.
Dash Attack: Done.
Up B: Give him the old startup back. It's far too fast now. If you want to speed it up, cut end lag instead.
Side B: It sounds like you're working on it, so I won't comment.
B: Done.
Down B: You've already fixed the utility of the move, so my only concern is the aforementioned aesthetics. The animation is great, but the graphics really make it look amateurish. I think a glowing blue orb should be moderately simple to make, and it'll look fantastic.

 

[Anonistry]

So... something really absurd, but I like absurd so I am throwing it out there. Any chance you can assign one of the two to a combination of A+B, the way Brawl- did with Bowser's RBG? Its extremely unorthodox, and would give Mewtwo a completely extra potent tool, but... yeah. Totally shooting it out anyways.

 

[PseudoTypical]

So... something really absurd, but I like absurd so I am throwing it out there. Any chance you can assign one of the two to a combination of A+B, the way Brawl- did with Bowser's RBG? Its extremely unorthodox, and would give Mewtwo a completely extra potent tool, but... yeah. Totally shooting it out anyways.

One of the two what?

 

[Nguz95]

You mean so i can have both of the side b ideas... Unfortunately I think that would completely break the character. I like the idea, but I am already planning to use a+b for one of his command throws.

 

[Anonistry]

... Did you just casuall yadmit to a+b as used for a throw? :O
Is it just going to be another way to use a specific throw he already has, or do you actually have another move you are planning to give him?

 

[Nguz95]

... Did you just casuall yadmit to a+b as used for a throw? :O
Is it just going to be another way to use a specific throw he already has, or do you actually have another move you are planning to give him?

I am planning to assign a+b to the flame choke you can only get from what will be the second side b I make. The first one, psystrike, is coming along nicely.

On an unrelated note, I have barrier's kb fixed, including a better graphic, but I can't get it to reflect projectiles more powerful than link's arrows... I'll get it eventually.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I think making Mewtwo more of a grapple- like character sounds like a great idea! I think it makes him a unique grappling character in general . It actually fits him really well. I look forward to the new version! Keep up the good work!

 

[Anonistry]

Definitely my vote.
So, let me clarify: he will have his side-b grab, which'll be up or down. If we do pick the grab option, then you will also assign a "flamechoke" version, which I assume means a dash into side-b version, which I would guess is left unsafe without setup or a good read?

 

[Nguz95]

Definitely my vote.
So, let me clarify: he will have his side-b grab, which'll be up or down. If we do pick the grab option, then you will also assign a "flamechoke" version, which I assume means a dash into side-b version, which I would guess is left unsafe without setup or a good read?

Kind of. Here is what I am doing: I am making two Mewtwos, one with psystrike, and the other with psychic. Psystrike will be a one charge kill move that will be useless unless it isfully charged (3 seconds). Psychic will be a little more complicated. Basically it will start with the original side-b animation, except for slightly (4frames) faster. If you catch someone you will be given three options: release him (do nothing), ligltly toss him upwardsto combo (A button), or slam him into the ground to set up a tech chase (A+B).

Both moves, when paired with barrier, have an enormous amount of potential. With psystrike, for example, you can finally finish off those shadowclaw strings. You can also go dair-barrier-double jump-psystrike for a super flashy finisher.

With psychic you can apply some really serious shield pressure. Imagine dair/fair to force a shield, barrier to apply pressure, wavedash to cancel it, and then psychic to catch them if they are still shielding. You could also reverse the order, starting with psychic to get them out of thier shield, tossing them, then hitting barrier, then finishing with an aerial. Since psychic has no kill throws, the range will be longer than a regular grab, allowing you to rack up damage much faster. The light toss would set up low% combos on mid weights and midto high % combos on spacies. The flame choke would set up tech chases and most of the cool stuff ganon's flame choke does.

Once I have both versions out, I will set up a poll to defermine which option you guys like better. The winning version will move forward as the focus. However, if the vote is close, I will consider continuing to work on both.

(A quick disclaimer: this assumes I will be able to create both of these moves. If one of them ends up being out of my reach, I will have to stick with the move I finished.)

 

[Anonistry]

So under the grab version, his normal throws are eclipsed by the grab, correct? Or given this setup, could they still have a use? Like chain grabs or a kill throw. Oh and you said aerial side b would be different if grab, or was that justme?

 

[Nguz95]

So under the grab version, his normal throws are eclipsed by the grab, correct? Or given this setup, could they still have a use? Like chain grabs or a kill throw. Oh and you said aerial side b would be different if grab, or was that justme?

His normal grabs will still have the same utility they currently have. Dthrow will be a decent combo starter, fthrow might be changed (npt really sure what to do with that one), and uthrow and bthrow will still be kill throws. I will probably decrease his grab range a little considering it's currently leagues ahead of Melee's grab range.

In terms of aerial side-b I think it will be similar to Lucario's side b except you have two options instead of one. The default will probably the same light toss, which would be good for juggles and stuff. If you press a (or maybe a+b to keep it simple), you will perform a weak meteor similar to the old dair (can't make him be a spike master, he ain't Falco). That's my current idea. An angled meteor might be cool too.

Anyway, that's what I am thinking at the moment. Let me know if you guys have ideas too!

 

[GigasOverlord]

In all honesty, once the poll is done and the popular move is picked, I'd deconstruct the one not used and move ideas from that into other moves instead of continuing to work on both. It makes it less work for you and less polarizing for the player base. That, and I can't imagine that at least some of these ideas would feel at home inside his other moves.

Also, for the aerial options, make sure that if it's not just a meteor, the normal light toss has little enough knockback to be chased by a DJ. Old Barrier had the problem that you had to expend the entirety of Mewtwo's movement to even come close to getting returns for using it. If the light toss is the same way, it'd be better to just meteor then chase them toward the stage.

And for F-Throw, I'm pretty sure I posted an idea sometime ago, but here's another one.

F-Throw Shadow Ball Burst: Mewtwo holds his opponent in front of him with his left arm whilst preparing a small Shadow Ball in his right. He thrusts his right arm forward and jams the Shadow Ball into his opponent. The ball bursts, sending his opponent flying off horizontally.

 

[Anonistry]

I def like the normal throws being less range than the grab. It kind of sets up an odd way of covering the grappler archetype. The side B is the mixup grapple that substitutes the usual shield bypassing game, while the normals kind of set up the classic command grab that carries its own threat (kills and chains). I am def curious about the angled meteor. What would it allow for as opposed to the straight, other than clever and deceptive KOs?

 

[Nguz95]

Gigas, I like your idea much better mine. Making two projects would be too polarizing. The light aerial toss will be more like a bump. It will be more of a positioning move than a ko move. You would use it to set up something like a uair (which I really need to fix) or a fair or a nair or something.

As for the angled meteor, it would definitely set up easier gimps, since you don't have to be as precise with your positioning. It would also really mess up people like Ike and Marth, since they can't recover very well diagonally. It would also set up for more linear tech chases, since rolling toward Mewtwo would be like rolling into a combo. It would restrict the opponent's options, which is always nice. However, I can't decide if this would be too good. There's a reason Lucario has to use an aura charge to get the diagonal meteor. I'll probably start with the regular straight down meteor.

 

[Anonistry]

Honestly, I was thinking and yeah, depending on the angle, that could be ridiculous. It isn't even just the meteor, it is the fact that it would be off of a grab. One whose angle could allow for a very safe place to do some from. At least I find, in Ganondorf, for example, his options can be baited and turned against him (I imagine there are characters with safer, of course.) Compared to that, an angled meteor grab sounds like it could too easily be a perfectly safe option. Even if not that bad, I still say the straight meteor is hardly anything to sneeze at anyways.

 

[Nguz95]

I was thinking too, and i came to the same conclusion as you. I also think I need to either keep the same startup on the side b or increase it a little. For reference, Cfal's Raptor Boost requires 15 frames of startup regardless of whether you start it in the air or on the ground. Mewtwo's side b requires 12. Even though he doesn't move, I'm not too sure if it's too abusable at just 12 frames.

 

[Mewter]

Yeah, make it slower all around.

 

[GigasOverlord]

You can always release it, then change it when we scream OP. Also, for the meteor, I think it'd be better for it to just be straight down. For Lucario, going straight down is usually the preferable route even if you have an aura cart because it is easier to work with. I only use Aerial Force Spike to clench KOs and be a troll. Otherwise, I'd rather regular AFP, Extremespeed cancel down, then D-Smash. In Mewtwo's case, I can see an aerial meteor into D-Air or N-Air, then predict the DI/techroll into a Shadow Ball or F-Air. For the start frames, make it relative to the damage dealt, as well as to that of Lucario's AFP. Then from there, you can determine how hard it should hit and at which speed it should enact.

 

[Anonistry]

I just had a chance to actually play this. All I can say is... wow. I had no idea how much fun I would have with this.

Let's see... Nope, nothing to say not already said before. I am really anxious for this next fix, just to see what is done get polished up. Of course, I REALLY can't wait until we get the new side-b, but of course that goes without saying.

I apologize for being that guy, so if this question bugs you just let me know, but how close do you feel to getting the next fix out?

 

[Nguz95]

Right now actually.

I finally got it!!!!!!!!
Well, sort of. The shine is fixed. It does regular knockback, which is great, but it only reflects weak projectiles like Link's arrows and Falco's blaster. I can't figure out how to change this for the world, so Instead I gave him knockback armor that will tank projectiles that do less than 8% damage. Please tell me if that is not enough % ok? I am not really sure at the moment.

Anyway, I also changed the shine graphic. It should be a lot cleaner and shinish (shiney?) looking. I tried to make the ftilt graphic better, and I think I partially succeeded. When I figure out how to make custom gfx that will be at the top of my list of things to change. I also fixed teleport. Right now it starts up in 6 frames, (which allowed me enough time to move downwards), and it travels for 15 frames instead of 10. This should make it feel slower. I am not really sure what the problem with side-b was, because it's fine now. It makes me move slightly up and it doesn't put me in special fall either. Maybe it was just a glitch? Let me know if it happens to you again. I will talk more about it later, because I have to go now, but please let me know what you think!

Check the op download link for this update.

 

[Anonistry]

Shine: Great texture, quite fitting. That said, I'm guessing the knockback is preventing a feature where if right next to you, the opponent would take considerably improved damage. Then again, that probably is quite fine, seeing as that is not the point of the move. I do feel like it lost a bit of range, though, maybe just me. It also might have failed at hitting someone right beside me, but that was in the Great Sea stage, so the constant angling could have affected that. Still, looks good, and seems to perform its current role just fine.​

​

Ftilt: Much better, in fact. I think it looks decent (although something more like his other stuff would be nice.) I was more concerned by its texture and its actual range, and it seems to be aligned correctly now. Awesome.​

​

Overall, good touch-ups. You could honestly probably release this and call it a day, its already functioning quite well (for me, anyways. Not exactly a pro level player, tbh.) That said, still can't wait for the new side-B!​

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

I tested the new Mewtwo. So here are my impressions:

Teleport: Teleport is adjustable now. I think the speed is just fine now. But can you make it where you can teleport to the ledge from on the stage like it used to?

Ftilt: The slash is a good size when you miss. The old slash appears when it hits. It isn't a big issue though.

Down B: I like the new look. The knockback is low but I think it is good this way since you can combo from the ground. You can even land a throw depending on who your opponent is. The only issue I see with it is that it does not hit from behind. It only hits when you are in front of Mewtwo.

Utilt: The animation is fixed.

Forward B: Mewtwo does not get put in the vulnerable state in the air. I didn't notice the slight vertical boost when you perform it in the air. It is fine until the new forward B is released.

This version is definitely better. I think the Down B issue is the only thing that is a BIG problem.

 

[Anonistry]

Yeah, just noticed that. Probably part of my odd impression of its hitbox, along with angle and height. That actually is a bit of a concern... Otherwise waiting on last major move change (Or so I'd think...)

 

[Anonistry]

@Dmickolas or anyone else who has it:

For the compilation Dmickolas put together, of sounds portraits, and skins, are those based on Nguz' model, or StarWaffle's? Or, rather, would it be possible to get the complete set armored, as well as any textures, on this mewtwo, and not have any funky animations?

 

[PseudoTypical]

@Dmickolas or anyone else who has it:

For the compilation Dmickolas put together, of sounds portraits, and skins, are those based on Nguz' model, or StarWaffle's? Or, rather, would it be possible to get the complete set armored, as well as any textures, on this mewtwo, and not have any funky animations?

Portraits/skins are on Starwaffle's; the sounds are compatible with any costume. As for the armor, yes. I'll try and help you more thoroughly when I get home.

 

[Anonistry]

Awesome, thanks so much! I just didn't want to find there to be an extra or missing bone or something and then see it work improperly.

 

[Nguz95]

At the moment I can't figure out why it can't hit behind you. I have a hitbox set on his opposite hand, and for some reason it is not showing up.before it would only hit behind and not in front, then it wouldn't hit at all. Once I spent three days trying to get it to hit I figured I would call it a day and release it now so I could fix it later. I'll figure it out somehow... Do you guys think that since it is not a very functional reflector I should decrease the startup a few frames? I don't know, it might make it a little more useful.

 

[Anonistry]

Hah. If only you could find a way to emulate Azrael from the upcoming BlazBlue game. Instead of just shining it back, he could store it and then shoot it later (yeah, two stored shots. Weird, I know...)

If anything, I'd say that, given it won't reach backwards correctly, and the screwiness of the projectile reflection, it could instead be made (taking from the above move) into a proper reversal. Make it clear it is front only, great startup, and invincibility. No reflect, but still usable as a quick projectile shield or a decent way of reversing momentum. Or something. Don't really know. If you did, it might actually be appropriate to restore its Disable animation... Whatever you chose, I am confident you'll figure it out.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

Hah. If only you could find a way to emulate Azrael from the upcoming BlazBlue game. Instead of just shining it back, he could store it and then shoot it later (yeah, two stored shots. Weird, I know...)

If anything, I'd say that, given it won't reach backwards correctly, and the screwiness of the projectile reflection, it could instead be made (taking from the above move) into a proper reversal. Make it clear it is front only, great startup, and invincibility. No reflect, but still usable as a quick projectile shield or a decent way of reversing momentum. Or something. Don't really know. If you did, it might actually be appropriate to restore its Disable animation... Whatever you chose, I am confident you'll figure it out.

We could try your idea. It keeps Down B from being a copy of shine. I don't know about the Azrael mechanic though (sounds like villager from smash wii u/3ds). It does worry me that Down B will turn out to be a lot like shine.

 

[Mewter]

This version is much better! :D

What if Down B created a temporary full-body shield that reduced damage and knockback from projectiles instead of reflecting them?

 

[Nguz95]

Hmmm... That is an interesting idea. Sort of like Mario's cape except with knockback. It would be like Lucas' magnet in that it would only hit in the front, reversing momentum might be hard. I think i can do it, but It might make his recovery absoloutely ridiculous. Since he is really heavy right now, making him be able to shift his momentum in the air might just break him. I could have duce the length of teleport to compensate for this. It's a good idea, i just need to figure out if i can implement it right. I do like the one direction shine idea though. I would have to buff the startup and the kb armor to compensate for the loss of half his hitboxes.

What If I changed the aerial hitbox to hit directly sideways, then changed his momentum to make him move diagonally down and forward towards the ground? You could keep the ground hitbox to maintain the original feel, and you could add an intersting mechanic that would set up both of the side-b ideas. With psystrike, you could just let it fly to finish your opponent since you are on the ground already. With psychic, you could scoop from the air, toss them, then finish them some other way.

Crazy i know, but it would definitely be interesting.

 

[Nguz95]

This version is much better! :D

What if Down B created a temporary full-body shield that reduced damage and knockback from projectiles instead of reflecting them?

You mean like a tanking move? That would actually be a really good idea. I think I can do that. He would have kb armor up to a certain point, then he could have reduced knockback until a second point. To have him be able to resist something like a full samus shot would be a little much though.