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Project GENO - MarioDK Demo out

Sr. P & R

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
76
What are you currently using that isn't working? Is it the Cape element?
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
All right, I've got Cosmic Geno Beta Version 0.3 up for download. Here you go!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/fmtzzzg2d1h/CosmicGenoBeta0.3.pac

It still isn't complete, but it's a lot more developed than the previous version.
This version of Geno is fast on the ground and has floaty physics in the air, but unlike most floaty characters he can actually fast-fall very quickly, which lends itself well to surprise attacks.
Here's a list of his moves so far:

A: Finger Shot - Geno pulls out his trusty finger gun and fires a bullet. It's quick to fire and has pretty good range for a normal A move. Best used as a method for keeping your distance from opponents. If anyone has a better idea for a graphic effect here, let me know - I don't like shiny bullets.
FTilt: Hand Cannon - Geno fires off a flash of burning energy. Its range is much longer than you'd expect from such a small fighter. Like Finger Shot, its primary use is for knocking close-range opponents away.
UTilt: Hand Gun - Geno fires a burst of energy upwards. It has a bit of a start-up lag, but has a nice sweetspot if you can time it right.
DTilt: Ground Explosion - Geno sends a burst of energy into the ground, causing a small explosion in front of him.
Dash Attack: Double Hit - Geno strikes out quickly with a weak burst of energy. If you let go of the control stick at the moment he releases the attack, he will do a spin attack as well, but if you don't, it combos well into his FTilt.
FSmash: Star Gun - Geno fires off a burst of star energy. If you tap the A button again at the right time, he will send off a second, more powerful attack as well.
USmash: Star Burst - Geno focuses energy into the air above him, then causes an explosion of stars which blasts opponents straight upwards. It's slow, but very powerful. Based on Shadic's USmash, but with different graphic effects.
DSmash: Rocket Burn - Geno uses the rockets in his fists to light his hands on fire and set off a pair of explosions next to him. Not very effective as an attack, will probably be strengthened.
Nair: Orbital Spin - Geno spins his body in the air rapidly, hitting anyone who comes too close.
Fair: Rocket Rush - Geno uses his rocket punch to thrust himself forward for a powerful punch. If he hits them while thrusting, he will push them forward, but the attack is most powerful if he hits right at the end. Based vaguely on the punch Geno uses on Bowyer in his first fight scene in SMRPG. Credit goes to Shadic for coming up with the air-dash idea.
Bair: Spinning Blast - Geno whirls around and fires his Hand Gun three times behind him. Each burst sends opponents in a different trajectory, but the strongest blast is the last one, which hits them at an upwards angle.
Uair: Stellar Shock - Geno releases a burst of star energy above him, sending opponents upwards. It has a strong sweetspot at the very tip of the attack at the moment it comes out. A perfect hit with the sweetspot is a very powerful killing move.
Dair: Meteor Strike - Geno hits opponents below him with his fist, sending them straight downwards. If the attack connects, he also gets a slight upwards boost.
FThrow: 7-Star Strike - Geno hits his opponent seven times with a rapid flurry of stars, sending them flying a good distance away with the last hit. Based on Shadic's FSmash animation and physics, but not quite as powerful. It's still a very good throw, about on par with Ness/Lucas in terms of knockback.
BThrow: Meteor Shower - Geno leaps above his opponent and rains star energy on top of them, dealing damage and sending them backwards. It doesn't send them very far, but does a good deal of damage.
UThrow: Star Release - Geno raises his hands and holds his opponent in the air above him for a moment before sending them flying straight upwards. Based loosely on the way that Mario sent Star Pieces into the sky in SMRPG, probably needs to be made stronger in the future.
DThrow: Rocket Punch - Geno smashes his opponent with a rocket-charged fist, knocking them down and causing them to slide across the floor.
B: Geno Beam - Geno focuses energy into his Star Gun, charging it into a powerful long-range beam that sends opponents flying back. Charging it three times brings it to maximum power, but waiting any longer causes it to weaken. He can also fire it without charging at all, although this will result in a very small burst. In the air, only the small, uncharged version can be used. Knockback probably needs to adjusted.
Side B: Geno Whirl - Geno tosses a speedy energy disk, dealing damage to opponents. Pressing the A button immediately before the attack connects deals a powerful blow that can KO at around 100% damage, but pressing it too early causes the attack to become exceedingly weak. One of Geno's best killing moves, but it takes some practice to land the critical hit and its long start-up makes it easy to dodge.
Up B: Geno Boost - Geno rises into the air, radiating energy. He will take no knockback if hit during the first part of the move. After using the move, he will glow with energy, and any aerial attacks he uses while falling will be more powerful than usual. Unlike most recovery moves, Geno retains his second jump after using Geno Boost. He can also use the ability again while falling in order to slow his descent or to defend against attacks. Credit to Shadic for the graphical effect.
Down B: Geno Blast - Geno raises his hands into the air, focusing energy into the sky above him, then sends it streaming down onto any unsuspecting opponents. The attack deals tremendous amounts of damage (up to over 40% damage at full charge!) and has a wide range, but it has no knockback and a very long start-up and ending lag. It also has a blind spot right next to Geno, leaving him wide open to any opponents who avoid the blast. Like Geno Beam, it can be charged up to three times but weakens if it is not released after the third charge. If Geno uses this in the air, he will hover and fire the energy from his own hands instead. The aerial version is weaker and lasts shorter than the ground version. Also, it cannot be charged, and puts him into free-fall.
 

phantomphungus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
402
Location
NW Washington
*tries out cosmic geno, edits post later to post review*

EDIT: Okay, here we go, my critique on what needs fixing. There's a large lack of, well, 100-140% kill moves. His Nair is surprisingly knockback-ey, though. Also, his final smash...uh... is it just me, or does it deal 400% damage and automatically kill everything but geno on stage? NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE?? Yea, I imagine that you're trying to fix that though.
Also, I'm having trouble with that supposed "stronger" attack if you tap the button after his FSmash. I haven't found it, it seems to be non-existent. Make the opportunity window a little bigger please.
The up-b should be changed, I know it's not complete and currently doesn't really do much, but after reading what it does, I think it should do something a little different. I'm not that much into the habit of using moves after my up-b.

But, on the bright side, I love chaining his forward air. It's fun! He's just a liiiiiiitttle bit clunky, but that's probably because the animation still needs polishing. He's a generally fun character, but he has a few major flaws that need ironing out, but I'm sure when he's past that beta stage he'll be much better than the current geno! (no offense, Shadic)
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Yeah, I'm still working on his Final, so don't worry about that. As for his FSmash's second attack, the timing is right after the stars are released, but you probably won't see the second attack unless you're looking for it, it just looks like a couple of small yellow stars that come out of the gun, which go a little further than the first shot. You'll also hear a small 'ding' sound if you get it right. It's hard to do, and unfortunately isn't very useful right now but I think it has potential, given later improvement.
As for his up-B, I might consider changing it if enough people have a problem, but I think it would be kind of fun (and also fit well with Geno's personality) if a good tactic with him included rising into the sky and then attacking while descending (basically, his aerial style will be mainly combo-based, but after using Geno Boost he will be able to use strong killing attacks). Also, it isn't totally useless as it is, once you know how to use it - the lengthy super armor time span at the beginning of the move make it a useful defensive technique and it is very effective at messing up an enemy's gimping attempts, much like Yoshi's second jump.
I know that some aspects feel kind of incomplete, that's because I usually try to fix up an attack's physics and timing before polishing up its power and knockback, also, I generally leave sound effects alone until the end (I'm also waiting for someone to come up with a more complete universal sound file list so I don't have to make blind guesses as to which sounds I should use. The Star Rod and Cracker Launcher sound effects could find some use here...)
 

leafgreen386

Dirty camper
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Mar 20, 2006
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Playing melee and smash ultimate
A clone engine is being worked on...but I don't think it'll work with PSA characters....or so I heard :(
I just wanted to say that this is wrong and that it would be pointless to even make a clone engine right now that didn't work with pacs. When it gets made, it will be designed to work with PSA characters... not the outdated codes we've been using.

The genos are looking pretty good right now. I haven't had a chance to try either of them yet, but I can't wait.
 

Skieth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
122
Just played indigo's geno and I have to say I really like it. I hadn't read the description of all the moves until now. There seems to be more functions for the over b and over smash that I haven't played with yet. Great job
 

Xaranid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
151
Awsome job! i have a few suggestions. Most of the aerials have the same animation as tlink. Why not change the fair animation to the same one used for rocket punch? That way itll look more like the bowyer punch from Mario RPG and make it feel less like tlink.


Edit: i cant find or see the three hits on bair how does it work?
 

phantomphungus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
402
Location
NW Washington
Oh, and Indigo, just wanted to report that in the animation for his geno disk, toonlinks sword appears while he's getting ready to throw it. You may want to take that out.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Awsome job! i have a few suggestions. Most of the aerials have the same animation as tlink. Why not change the fair animation to the same one used for rocket punch? That way itll look more like the bowyer punch from Mario RPG and make it feel less like tlink.


Edit: i cant find or see the three hits on bair how does it work?
Yeah, it's always a bit of an issue...The thing is, I generally try to avoid using ground animations in mid-air and vice-versa, since they tend to make the character look weird when using the attack (for example, the feet end up flat on the ground even in mid-air, which just doesn't look natural) and it gives the feel of being a PSA hack, rather than an actual legitimate character. Some people have less of such a concern with that sort of thing than I do, which makes sense, because having that kind of a restriction greatly limits the potential animations available, especially with aerials. The thing is, I'm more concerned with him looking and feeling like a 'legit' Geno than I am about differentiating him from Toon Link, so I'd rather stick with the same animations than try to squeeze in new ones if they won't work properly. I might consider using his aerial forward throw animation, but the truth is that I like the way that this one looks anyway (if you watch carefully in the Bowyer scene, Geno actually does spin around when he hits Bowyer, so it fits well).

As for the Bair, I'm still working on it, the graphics just don't seem to line up properly. The hitboxes should be three spaces in a curve shape behind him, they are actually connected to his invisible sword at three specific points during the swing, but it's hard to tell if they're working right because the graphics don't line up with them.
 

Xaranid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
151
Alright lol makes sense wanting it to have a fluid motion. Hey any plans for a model hack once its possible?

EDIT: one last thing in fsmash the first hit knocks the opponent out of the range of the timed hit making it hard to connect. Im being totally nitpicky though, i really wanted Geno in brawl so i totally support this project
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
327
Hey, Shadic, I've got a question. How did you get the animation for your FSmash to cancel early? Is there an event code that automatically cancels animations at a set point, or did you use some other method?
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
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Carefully selected frame speed modification.

As for my release, I'm kinda busy with school (It started this week, and I've got bills to pay) but I really don't want to release until I can get this reflection working. Anybody have any more ideas? I've looked at just about every move that I know of that reflects, and still, the only place I can get reflection to work on is his feet, regardless of hitbox size/location.
 

D.B.K.

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Mar 3, 2009
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tinyfuses
Would it be possible to spawn a Franklin Badge and then destroy it a few seconds(or frames) later?
 

Shadic

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Maybe, but sticking it to him would be slightly complex, if not impossible. Also, if the attack was interrupted before the badge was removed, it would stay, I believe.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Maybe, but sticking it to him would be slightly complex, if not impossible. Also, if the attack was interrupted before the badge was removed, it would stay, I believe.
That wouldn't be a problem if you just gave him super armor or invincibility as well.

Also, thanks for the tip!
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Cosmic Geno Beta 0.4 is up for download!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/kuajz2ezmiz/CosmicGenoBeta0.4.pac

This time, he's got a much more polished feel than before. I still haven't gotten around to removing the sword and shield for some of his poses, but as far as his playing style goes, almost all of his main moves are complete enough to test him out for real (the exceptions are his up throw, up-B on the ground, and Final Smash, which are still being worked on).

He's got a lot of hitbox changes since the last time, as well as some major graphical changes. I've been using a new technique to make 'custom' graphical effects, and if used properly, I might even be able to make his Final Smash a lot closer to cannon than I previously thought would be possible...

Anyway, some specific points of interest that are different from before:
Geno Blast (down-B) has a much shorter cooldown time than before, in order to keep him from being attacked even after landing the attack (the charge-up and attack time still leaves plenty of opportunity for an enemy to counter if they evade the attack, keeping it balanced)
Geno Boost finally increases the attack power of his aerials. His boosted, sweetspotted FAir is as powerful as the Knee of Justice (the other moves don't have quite as drastic changes, though)! Use the Boost for dealing killing attacks and non-boosted aerials for pulling off combos.
BAir turns him around in the air. It's hitboxes have great range and can hit in three separate trajectories, depending on which explosion hits the enemy. The top one is the most powerful, though.
Down Tilt is similar to Samus', but has less KBG. It's useful for initiating an aerial combo.

I'm nearing the halfway point of beta testing. His style is complete enough that comments regarding his moves, whether they are overpowered, underpowered, or need some other changes, can now be addressed.

Some key points I'm thinking about include whether or not his Bair should spin him around (it does in the current version), how Geno Blast should work exactly (before commenting on how balanced or unbalanced Geno Blast is, make sure you're playing against a HUMAN, CPU's are cannon fodder for the move) whether or not he should have a little less fire and a little more stars (I've kept his moves about half-and-half as of this point), and what Geno Boost should do on the ground (I'm thinking of making it increase the power of any attack that you interrupt it with).
 

Xaranid

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
151
Awsome update it feels much smoother and i love the new graphic effects. One glitch report though back throw occasionally freezes. Aside from that great job!
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
That's weird... I previously had the same effect for his down throw, and someone else reported that it could cause freezes, but I've never seen it do so. Maybe it interferes with another code somehow...?

EDIT: Oh wait, it was you before too... Do you have any unusual codes on your Wii, Xaranid?

EDIT: Ah, I see... it freezes if you're using Ganondorf... That's odd, I wonder why? I'll see if I can fix it.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
If you can, that would be great! One question though, does model hacking also change hitbox positions and/or physical behavior?

Even if it does, it shouldn't be a problem, since Toon Link is pretty Geno-sized and shaped already - just a few touches to his clothing and hair, and maybe add a bit of blocky, puppet-like details to his joints, and he should be fine. Oh, and getting rid of the sword and shield, if possible.
 

Eldiran

Smash Lord
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Jan 8, 2008
Messages
1,707
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Indigo, I see the cause for your crashes. In the ThrownX subactions, you have the model changer codes. ThrownX is applied to the enemy being thrown - if the enemy's model can't change, it crashes. If you remove the code from the ThrownX subactions it should work.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Indigo, I see the cause for your crashes. In the ThrownX subactions, you have the model changer codes. ThrownX is applied to the enemy being thrown - if the enemy's model can't change, it crashes. If you remove the code from the ThrownX subactions it should work.
Which model changer codes? If you're talking about the codes that make his sword be in different places, I tried changing that but it didn't help. As far as I can tell, the only code that could be causing the crash is in the 'Throw Attack Collision', which I copied from Ness. Is there something else? Could you explain a little better?

EDIT: Oh, you mean the thrown... the subactions after the throw actions? That's weird... I thought those involved what happens when the edited character is thrown.

EDIT: No, I tried those... still isn't working.

EDIT: Well, it doesn't seem possible to fix, so I'm just going to create a new down throw using the instant-throw + hitboxes method instead.
 

xepherthree

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My Wii shuold be getting back from nintendo in about a week, and I can;t wait to play this... But ni the meantime, are there any videos of geno? I can't seem to find any on YouTube.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
My Wii shuold be getting back from nintendo in about a week, and I can;t wait to play this... But ni the meantime, are there any videos of geno? I can't seem to find any on YouTube.
Shadic's Geno (the old version, I'm still waiting for him to put up his next release...) shows up in one of YouTube's videos fighting against Mewtwo. I don't think my Cosmic Geno has appeared there yet, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhfmEpumdD0

Speaking of which, I forgot to put my latest version on this thread. It's the first non-beta version, meaning all known bugs are gone and all moves are basically complete (although there will still be improvements in the future.) Check it out!

http://www.mediafire.com/file/zjnhoewyelf/CosmicGenoVersion1.pac

So... I guess that by this point, someone could make a promo video for him, yes? Keeping in mind that some aspects will still be changed in the future. If anyone decides to make a video, they should be sure to take a look at his moveset list, since some of his moves have more properties to them than meets the eye, and should be mentioned: specifically the charging mechanics of Geno Beam and Geno Boost, the timed hit effect of Geno Whirl, the long super armor time of Geno Boost and its ability to power up aerial attacks, and the second attack in his Forward Smash. Also, make sure to give Shadic credit where it's due!
(Oh, yeah, he also has new taunts and victory poses...I'll leave those as a surprise. :chuckle:)

A: Finger Shot - Geno pulls out his trusty finger gun and fires a bullet. It's quick to fire and has pretty good range for a normal A move and can build up damage quickly.
FTilt: Hand Cannon - Geno fires off a flash of burning energy. Its range, speed, and knockback are excellent, but it's not a good kill move. Its primary use is for knocking close-range opponents away. It also is a good move to end a combo with.
UTilt: Hand Gun - Geno fires a burst of energy upwards. It has a bit of a start-up lag, but has a nice sweetspot if you can time it right.
DTilt: Ground Explosion - Geno sends a burst of energy into the ground, causing a small explosion in front of him. It sends opponents into the air, and is good for starting aerial combos.
Dash Attack: Double Hit - Geno strikes out quickly with a weak burst of energy. If you let go of the control stick at the moment he releases the attack, he will do a spin attack as well, but if you don't, it combos well into his FTilt.
FSmash: Star Gun - Geno fires off a burst of star energy. If you tap the A button again right after the burst is released, he will send off a second, more powerful attack as well. You'll know you got it right if you hear a 'ding' sound.
USmash: Star Burst - Geno focuses energy into the air above him, then causes an explosion of stars which blasts opponents straight upwards. It's slow, but very powerful, and is one of Geno's few good kill moves. Based on Shadic's USmash, but with different graphic effects.
DSmash: Rocket Burn - Geno uses the rockets in his fists to light his hands on fire and set off a pair of explosions next to him. Does good damage, but it has very little range and sub-par knockback.
Nair: Orbital Spin - Geno sparkles with energy and spins his body in the air rapidly, hitting anyone who comes too close. It's a good surprise attack, but often causes a hitbox 'trade' if the opponent is attacking while he's using it.
Fair: Rocket Rush - Geno uses his rocket punch to thrust himself forward for a powerful punch. If he hits them while thrusting, he will push them forward, but the attack is most powerful if he hits right at the end. Hitting with the sweetspot after using Geno Boost is as powerful as Captain Falcon's Knee of Justice! Based on the punch Geno uses on Bowyer in his first fight scene in SMRPG. Credit goes to Shadic for coming up with the air-dash idea.
Bair: Spinning Blast - Geno whirls around and fires his Hand Gun three times behind him. Each burst sends opponents in a different trajectory, but the strongest blast is the last one, which hits them at an upwards angle. A very good ranged attack, but it has a blind spot right next to Geno.
Uair: Stellar Shock - Geno releases a burst of star energy above him, sending opponents upwards. It has a strong sweetspot at the very tip of the attack at the moment it comes out. A perfect hit with the sweetspot is a very powerful killing move.
Dair: Meteor Strike - Geno hits opponents below him with his fist, sending them straight downwards. If the attack connects, he also gets a slight upwards boost.
FThrow: 7-Star Strike - Geno hits his opponent seven times with a rapid flurry of stars, sending them flying a good distance away with the last hit. Based on Shadic's FSmash animation and physics, but not quite as powerful. It's still a very good throw, about on par with Ness/Lucas in terms of knockback.
BThrow: Meteor Shower - Geno leaps above his opponent and rains star energy on top of them, dealing damage and sending them backwards. It doesn't send them very far, but does a good deal of damage.
UThrow: Star Release - Geno raises his hands and holds his opponent in the air above him for a moment before sending them flying upwards. Based loosely on the way that Mario sent Star Pieces into the sky in SMRPG.
DThrow: Rocket Punch - Geno smashes his opponent with a rocket-charged fist, knocking them down. It's not too powerful, but it leaves opponents open to a combo attack.

B: Geno Beam - Geno focuses energy into his Star Gun, charging it into a powerful long-range beam that sends opponents flying back. Charging it three times brings it to maximum power, but waiting any longer causes it to weaken. He can also fire it without charging at all, although this will result in a very small burst. In the air, only the small, uncharged version can be used.

Side B: Geno Whirl - Geno tosses a speedy energy disk, dealing damage to opponents. Pressing the A button immediately before the attack connects deals a powerful blow that can KO at around 100% damage, but pressing it too early causes the attack to become exceedingly weak. One of Geno's best killing moves, but it takes some practice to land the critical hit and its long start-up makes it easy to dodge.

Up B: Geno Boost - Geno rises into the air, radiating energy. He will take no knockback if hit during the first part of the move. After using the move, he will glow with energy, and any aerial attacks he uses while falling will be more powerful than usual (this aspect has still not been added, I want to complete his aerials fully before I deal with that). Unlike most recovery moves, Geno retains his second jump after using Geno Boost. He can also use the ability again while falling in order to slow his descent or to defend against attacks. Credit to Shadic for the graphical effect of the upwards spin.

Down B: Geno Blast - Geno raises his hands into the air, focusing energy into the sky above him, then sends it streaming down onto any unsuspecting opponents. The attack deals tremendous amounts of damage (up to 40% damage at full charge!) and has a wide range, but it has no knockback and a very long start-up, making it impossible to spam. It also has a blind spot right next to Geno, leaving him wide open to any opponents who avoid the blast. Like Geno Beam, it can be charged up to three times but weakens if it is not released after the third charge. If Geno uses this in the air, he will hover and fire the energy from his own hands instead. The aerial version is weaker and lasts shorter than the ground version. Also, it cannot be charged, and puts him into free-fall. Altogether, Geno Blast is not nearly as effective as it looks, being only marginally more useful than, say, Warlock's Punch, at least in a one-on-one battle. In free-for-alls or team battles, though, it is much more effective. (Note that this is in reference to human players. CPU's, even Level 9's, have a strange tendency to stand around and get slammed by the move.)

Final Smash - Geno Flash: Geno's physical body explodes, and his spirit transforms into a cannon made out of pure energy and fires off a blast of energy that explodes a few seconds later, dealing heavy damage to anyone nearby. It is possible to run away from the blast before it explodes, though. This attack is not quite perfected yet - if the opponent is standing in the way of the initial blast, it will deal heavy damage but no knockback. Which is OK, but I intend to change it in a later release.
 

IntelliHeath1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
816
Just drop a line that you did fantastic job with Upgraded Geno, and I really enjoy to play as him.

P.S. down B only do 20% (even full charged) \
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Just drop a line that you did fantastic job with Upgraded Geno, and I really enjoy to play as him.

P.S. down B only do 20% (even full charged) \
You have to let go of the B button after the third charge but before the attack launches to get maximum damage. If you keep holding it down, it'll go back to its weakest charge level. Same goes for Geno Beam.
 

Xyless

Smash Master
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Aug 21, 2006
Messages
3,656
Location
Chicago/Ann Arbor
I'm recording demos of your Geno, Indigo, since he's included in my all CPU 64-man tournament (along with Mewtwo and Wisp).
 

Xyless

Smash Master
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Messages
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I don't know if you knew about this Indigo, but your Geno (the latest version) dies when his shield pops like Jigglypuff. I would highly recommend changing that, especially since that messes with your stun animation (when Mewtwo stuns him, he just disappears).

Plus, it's just a stupid thing to have, which makes characters like Marth, Peach (Mr Saturn), and DK broken against him. I don't even like it on Jiggs.



Also, I may as well review Indigo's Geno, since I've watched and played it quite a bit over the last day or so with the CPU and myself.

PROS:
+Very fun
+Most moves graphically make sense and fit Geno
+Lots of very strange but fun mechanics to his moves
+Very skilled at long range
+Special moves are perfect
+Final Smash is powerful enough
+Tilts and jabs are amazing
+Aerials are good
+Up Smash is perfect

CONS:
-Shield popping = death
---Related: being stunned by Mewtwo's side-B, Wario's weakest fart, the Deku Nut, or anything else turns Geno invisible, possibly because something went wrong with the stun animation
-----Further, I have had a few experiences that, after coming out of the stun, if my shield comes out right at the right time, or some other thing happens (not sure what caused it), I stay invisible until I do another action. Jumping, running, or shielding did not take me out of invisibility.
-Grabs are completely unreliable, and confusing (down goes forward, back goes down, up doesn't connect), and the grab range/cooldown makes grabs completely unviable considering how cool they could be
-Other smashes (Fsmash/dsmash) just don't feel like they are worth using.


Move by move analysis:
GREEN means I liked it, and doesn't really need changing.
YELLOW means I might/might not like it, but isn't high on the priority.
RED means I didn't like it, and probably needs changing
ALL have comments/suggestions though.
ATTACKS
JAB: The finger shot has decent priority, good range (especially for a jab), and is spammable. It isn't too strong, and isn't really too weak.
FTILT: The hand cannon suits the name, with a fiery poof the enemy flies away. Not spammable, which is good considering its knockback. I think the range might be a LITTLE too much, since it seems like it goes past the graphic. Otherwise, a strong move for him.
UTILT: I didn't really understand it at first, since I thought he was just...posing or something. But now that I know it's a gun, I guess it makes sense. Knockback is decent enough for a tilt, especially considering his up smash is already good enough at killing vertically. It's pretty much the exact same as Peach's utilt in its speed, so I'd say that's a good speed.
DTILT: I rely on this far more than DSmash, simply because it has a lot better range, knockback, and is faster. My only real complaint is the animation. If you could possibly make it so he did the swipe up until the explosion happened, then reverse the animation back or something so it looked like he was firing something instead of swinging, that'd be awesome. But I'm not as worried about aesthetics.

DASH ATTACK: REALLY didn't understand the move at all until I read up on him. The spin is a lot better than without, but I think that being able to do a move out of the weak attack makes it an interesting mindgame, and makes him a little unpredictable.

FSMASH: To be honest, I liked the mechanic, but I feel like the move is just too weak. It might not be, but it could just be the animation or something. It could be that I just don't like having a character not really make a noise for a smash. It sounds like he's charging, but then nothing happens. Plus, I can't help but think that the stars are coming from his armpits.
USMASH: My favorite non-special attack of Geno's. I like the double hit, first a somewhat weak hit which leads into to the explosion of stars, and love that it matches his animation perfectly. Horizontal range of the first hit is good, possibly too good, but I'm not sure. Otherwise, definitely his most reliable kill move (of the physical attacks anyway).
DSMASH: I really, really don't like his dsmash. Pretty much every Dsmash in Smash history either covers both sides of the character effectively, or focuses the damage into one section (Mewtwo/Lucas). I just don't ever feel like there is a reason to use the Dsmash, as the main hitbox is just too close to Geno. If you could increase the hitbox and decrease the damage slightly to compensate, it would be a huge improvement. For good examples, look at Pikachu, as your dsmash feels kind of like his, but with fire. I might even say that you should give it your USMASH's first hit's horizontal range, and give USMASH this one's.

NAIR: The least useful of Geno's aerials, in my opinion. It doesn't have that great of damage, leaves him somewhat open for attacks, and the cooldown at the end especially makes it punishable. Also, the hitbox is very, very small, especially since the move only hits once, and the hit has practically no knockback at all.
FAIR: The air dash was a great touch to the move. It gives him more horizontal recovery when off the edge, and the move feels very balanced damage-wise. It requires proper spacing for the sweetspot, but that's really a good thing, especially when paired with the Boost. However, I feel like it would be more appropriate for at least stars to pop out when connecting with the Boosted Rush, since it does feel a little too much like the Knee and Zelda's fairs in that way (what can I say, I love the stars). Otherwise, great move.
BAIR: I'm not sure what to think about this move. On one hand, it's got great range and power, but on the other hand...it's got great range and power. The size and strength of the explosions, coupled with how quickly you can use it, REALLY make the move feel broken. It is extremely easy to keep people from recovering with it, because they simply can't touch you out there. I'd say either make it either have lots of lag afterward, make it slower, make it weaker, or just tone something down. Maybe even make it just one fireball. There's just no reason to spam the crap out of the move once they are in the mid-range zone, especially off-stage.
UAIR: There isn't really much to say about the move. It's pretty much Zelda's uAir, but with stars. And that's awesome. Speed is great, damage potential is great, knockback is great. Keep it as it is.
DAIR: It's really weird using TLink's dair without fear of dropping, but that's a good thing, and really separates him from TLink. However, considering its meteor smash potential, it REALLY can't be as spammable as it is right now. The fact that I can use it 5 times in one full jump is a really bad sign (not even any of MK's moves can do that, and they can't spike). It needs some warmup lag like pretty much all of the other spikes, and a little cooldown time as well (I can combo from a dair to a nair instantly, to a speed where TLink's attack screams clash with each other. I'd say give it more of nair's lag properties.

FTHROW: The most usable of the throws, or should I say least broken. The hits look nasty, and the damage is ok. The enemy can SDI out rather early, though, which leaves him open.
BTHROW: Would make FAR more sense as his down throw, since it pushes them down, then slightly back. However, just like the FThrow, they can DI and get out before the big hit happens rather easily (CPUs had no problem with it against me). Also, the BThrow just doesn't throw back enough to warrant using it as a throw itself, be it for positioning or comboing.
UTHROW: I've only really connected this correctly against low level CPUs, because the higher leveled ones get out of it. It's visually awesome WHEN it hits, but that is simply too rare. It's not even a case of DI'ing with the CPU's, he just doesn't lift high enough at times to really position them correctly, giving me a sense of "so...that's it?" whereas actually hitting with the throw is like "whoa that's cool".
DTHROW: Most useless of the throws. Not only does it not do anything downward, but the weak damage and horrible lag at the end just make it hilariously bad, especially since the description says you can combo with it. Seriously, move BThrow to this and just make a new throw for BThrow, would make more sense.

SPECIALS
NEUTRAL B: The Geno Beam is lots of fun, though the first charge is a little meh-y to me. Which is obviously the idea, so I'm fine with that. I don't know if I'm happy with the animation for it, but that's another aesthetic thing. If it were me, I'd use the hookshot, as it always looked like Geno pulled out a weapon of some sort to shoot it. The move should be a little more usable in the air, also, especially considering one of his specials leaves him helpless and another doesn't do damage by itself. That's really the only gripe I have with the move, though.

SIDE B: Ah, Geno Whirl. I really like using this move. It has good range (not too far, not too close), has a believable angle/position, and isn't TOO spammable. Also, the button pressing is pretty cool. However, if it were me, I'd rather have the button press for the stronger hit on the B button, as it not only feels unnecessarily complicated, but also strays somewhat from SMRPG, where special attacks also used Y to do the timed hits. Otherwise, I think it's a good move. I haven't practiced the timed hits enough yet.

UP B: Geno Boost has a great animation, very interesting after effects (with powering up aerials), has super armor (which is balanced by a lack of hurtboxes with the move), and really an all around good move. Does the move do anything on the ground? Maybe you should make it so if you do the Boost, the next attack while standing there is boosted? It could even be that if you move from that position by rolling, running, or jumping, you lose the boost. Also, it could be that you only get the boost if you let the move finish (on the ground), since that way you could use it either as a mindgame (canceling it into an attack) or use it to get somewhat stronger. Just my two cents. ALSO NOT YOUR FAULT BUT CPU'S ARE HORRIBLE WITH IT GAH

DOWN B: Geno Blast is very visually cool, and I love the animation for when it goes off. Also, I didn't notice until now, but releasing at the right time DOES give a visual/audio cue that you did it right, which is great. I'm actually a little surprised to say that it is balanced, because having the move called up leaves him wide open for being attacked. However, I think that the longer he charges (in bursts), the longer the move should be out...at least slightly. Just seems like it has too much potential to set things up in teams with how long he could leave enemies trapped in there just by pulling a quick Blast. Also, I am undecided on the helplessness after using it in the air, but I think it is a good balancing.


FINAL SMASH
GENO FLASH: The Geno Flash is really visually ugly, but yet again, AESTHETICS, so that doesn't make much different. After reading up just now on what happens, I guess I don't have to mention the whole "no knockback" thing. It also went off twice after missing once, which was odd. However, I don't think it's too strong, which is always good. If only you could get a face in there for the sun...



Summarizing:
Honestly, it can use a lot of improvement, but overlooking his faults, he's really fun to play as and watch. I'm really looking forward to this iteration of Geno. Priority #1 HAS to be fixing the shield popping death, because...that is just bad. The main things that need to be fixed ASAP are his grab (and pretty much everything related to it), the dair, the dsmash, the nair, and the bair. If I knew how to PSA, I'd try to help out more.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Okay, Xyless, I won't quote you here, because that would just be too big, but I'll answer to some of your concerns:

First of all, shield popping: That was (mostly) a mistake on my part. Originally, I had an idea (though I wasn't certain if I would keep it) to make it that, if Geno's shield broke, his body would explode in a burst of wooden fragments while his spirit departed into the air, but also causing heavy upwards knockback to any nearby enemies in order to bring them with him. I took that out later due to programming difficulty and general weirdness, but it seems as though some remnants of the idea escaped my attention. Since I haven't tested him against Mewtwo or with items, I didn't know about the turning invisible bug - I'll fix that up ASAP. I did deliberately leave in the shield breaking to death (to reference Geno's stellar origins, and I very rarely see anyone break their shields anyway) but I guess I'll take it out if people have a problem with it.

Second, concerning his throws: I'm still working on them. Making new throws for a character is very difficult, since trying to use normal throw animations causes the opponent to appear stuck inside the ground, and can sometimes cause freezes when used on certain characters. Instead, I was forced to turn them into normal attacks, causing the weirdness you see in some cases, since it's hard to ensure that any given attack will hit every character in the same way. His back throw looked and worked a lot better when it used throwing programming (think Diddy, who throws them under him and then backwards), but that caused the game to freeze when used on Ganondorf... I might be able to make a suitable substitute for it, or I might change the animation altogether. As for the grab itself, I'm not really sure how much I can do with it - I can't seem to increase the range of the grab without including the hookshot in the move, but I can probably increase the speed so it doesn't leave you vulnerable. At any rate, Geno's throws probably won't be very powerful in the final version anyway (since my plan is to make him primarily a long-range fighter), so avoiding them for now shouldn't deter upcoming Geno players.

His Dsmash: Yeah, I don't like it either. I'm just having a hard time coming up with better ideas. I do plan on changing it, though.

Fsmash: You are getting the timed attack, right? Anyway, yes, the Fsmash is slightly underpowered compared to most characters, which was actually a deliberate decision on my part. I wanted to make it very difficult for Geno to get opponents too far off the stage in order to reduce the potential edge-guarding abuse of both Geno Blast and his Bair. As a result, his forward tilt and forward smash moves both have relatively small knockback growth when compared to most characters - the main use of both moves is to knock away close-range opponents and to deal damage, not to land KOs (he can still KO with the timed Fsmash at higher damage percentages, though). Geno's main kill moves are all supposed to be vertical.

Nair: I don't know, I kind of liked this one. Even though it has a small hitbox, it comes out quick enough to use it as a surprise tactic (especially when used right after his Fair) and sometimes hit multiple times. I might consider making the hitbox bigger, though.

Bair: I've been getting mixed opinions here, since it does look and feel broken, but the truth is, when used in a real match (at least in my experience), its blind spot at close range, coupled with the difficulty in landing its most powerful part (the uppermost explosion) makes it a good, but probably not broken move. It might seem to be overpowered for edgeguarding, but like Geno Blast, its usefulness is diminished by Geno's lack of horizontal/downwards knockback attacks. If I find it abused in real battles, I'll consider weakening it, but I don't think it's really as overpowered as it looks.

Dair: I hear you here - I haven't actually managed to abuse the move very much, but I can see its potential. Giving it a slower startup seems like a suitable option, I think.

As for the specials, some of the minor problems (specifically Geno Beam's inability to charge in the air and using A to get the timed hit for Geno Whirl) were a result of programming difficulties and probably can't be changed (Geno Whirl takes some getting used to, but once you master the timing, it becomes a very useful kill move, while still remaining not overpowered or spammable due to its slow startup). But yes, a lot of his specials are pretty useless in the air, which is why I wanted his aerials to have 'special' properties (air-dash, disjointed hitboxes, sweetspots, etc.) I was considering the exact idea you had for Geno Boost, although it does raise some specific difficulties in itself (getting the boost to cancel if you walk, but not if you use a tilt, for example). I'll see if I can get it to work, though. As for Geno Blast, yes, it is much more effective in team battles if you're going 2 against 1 (remember that even in 2-on-2 the other opponent who isn't being knocked into range can still hit you while you're charging or using the attack), but then again, so are a lot of other character's moves (think grab+Falcon Punch), so I don't think that's too much of a problem, especially since it can't KO the target.

As for Geno Flash, it's still being worked on. Making a 3-D cannon shape out of special effects alone without going over the game engine's limit for how many special effects can appear on the screen at once is not an easy task, and a lot of Toon Link's Final Smash data (such as him going into a different attack when the enemy is in front of him) is hard-coded and impossible to change with PSA, but there may be ways to change the appearance and timing sufficiently so that it looks and feels entirely different. Oh, and by the way, there is a face in the sun - well, sort of. It's made out of sparkle effects.
 

Xyless

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
3,656
Location
Chicago/Ann Arbor
No worries about the shield or the throws or anything like that, I just felt like pointing out things for the sake of playtesting.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Shadoof
Indigo - Did you check to make sure there's nothing removing his sword in his thrown animation? For some reason, doing something like that seems to screw up his actual throws, it's an issue that I had as well.

As for me, I'm still around.. School just started though, so I've been awfully busy. I'll see about getting a release out when I can. I STILL can't get his Ground DownB to reflect. And with Indigo being more active and pushing out a newer version of his character, I'm considering merging in a lot of his aspects into mine, which will just take more time. If anybody wants to take the current DownB and make it work in the original pac I posted and upload it, I could just toss it into mine, release, and be quite thankful.
 

IndigoFenix

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
327
Yeah, I tried that already - it didn't help. Although, considering all the other things I changed in his throws (the animation, the trajectory, etc.) it isn't surprising that it wouldn't work if the code is that unstable.
I'm also busy these days (my updates are done mainly at night). I'll see if I could figure out how to fix up your down-B, I have a few ideas about why it might not be working. But at any rate, if you do want to incorporate some of my ideas in, feel free - the whole point is to assume that copied material is good material!
 

Skieth

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
122
Indigo Phoenix's Geno's down throw will launch some characters at angles like : ---\

It can easily be a guaranteed kill when near the ledge.

I think this time you really went overboard with some of the special effects. Most of it looks good, you just have the same effect on several moves. I understand that you're compensating for Geno just being a skin of Toon Link and trying to make sure the moves look different, but I think its fine without some of them.

The Dsmash is much better than it was before. I don't really have a problem with it. It certainly does not function as an anti-roll spam as all other down smashes do. I don't know if this is bad or not.

B and over B are just too similar to both be in IMO. I don't know which one I'd rather have, though. The up and down B's I think are both just fine.

Fsmash still not doing it for me. It seems mostly useless when compared to the ftilt. I really like the ftilt btw.

I think its coming along nicely, keep it up!
 

IntelliHeath1

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
816
I was coming back to inform that grab is broken when I stand on ledge. but someone beat me to punch.
 

xepherthree

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
649
Location
St. Pete, FL
3DS FC
4167-4976-4789
I just downloaded and tried both Genos, and I am really impressed. I'm gonna do a review kinda like skieths, just a little less flashy, and I'll be comparing the two. And sorry if I may seem harsh,

Neutral A: Indigo
I can't say there's much of a contest. indigos a is quick, speedy, and multihittable, while Shadic's is only better in knockback.

Ftilt: Indigo
Again, not a huge contest. I find that Indigo's ftilt has more range, less lag, and more power. Shadic's is kinda underwhelming, it looks basically like the jab except slower, laggier, and only slightly stronger.

Utilt: Shadic
Ah, the "classic" utilt. I gotta go with Shadics because it just works better. Indigo's utilt seems to only hit directly above and infront of him, with only above him being powerful. And, Shadic's hits all around Geno.

Dtilt: Indigo
Shadic had a good idea for dtilt, I just can't say it ended up working. It has bad range and is awkward to use in battle; Cosmic Geno has a strong, powerful move that enough enough power to make up for the lag.

NAir: Shadic
Both of the NAirs were pretty good. I feel Shadic's came out on top though as it is quick, pretty strong has has the ability to launch people depending on where they get hit. Indigo's did many of these things, but the hitbox is smaller then the appearance, and the power kinda kills this move.

FAir: Tie
Personally, I love Indigo's fair; ir's just too broken. If you run > jump >fair x2 you can go almost all of Final destination as one moving hitbox. Shadic's fair is a little tricky to get used to but works well overall.

BAir: Indigo
Unlike Skieth, I don't think indigo's bair is broken; it provides some power to Geno's aerials and has many uses. The thing that keeps it from being broken is the rest of Geno's aerials; the only other one with power is dair, and that only comes as a spike.Shadic's is a great move though, being tricky to follow, but should be a little stronger.

UAir: Shadic
Like BAir, both of these are great moves. Shadic's pulls ahead because it is stronger, has a tricky atmosphere to it, and has great kill potential.

DAir: Shadic
Lol, shadic's dair is just too fun. changing the angle of it while moving is fun too. I agree with skieth that Indigo's dair is broken; FFing it is too abuseable.

FSmash: Tie
I'd say Fsmash is bith Geno's weakest moves. Indigo's is weak, kinda laggy, and the timing for the second hit is a little too small; Shadic's does more damage; it however has little kill potential as well as being SO LAGGY and 100% shieldable.

USmash: Shadic
Considering Indigo based his USmash off Shadic, they are very similar. I find that the horizontal knockback, and having the first hit be bigger, makes Shadic's edge out just over Indigos.

DSmash: Shadic
I can't get enough of Shadic's Dsmash, it looks hilarious. boomboomboomboomboom! It has good range, great killing potential, and is hilarious to boot. Indigo's has its uses, but Shadic's pulls ahead.

Neutral B: Shadic
In a battle of the Geno Beams, coolest effects win...

Side B: Indigo
Well, considering Shadic didn't change the Side-B, he loses creativity points for that. It doesn't matter however, as the "press A" gimmick on Indigo's >B as well as the originality takes the cake.

Up B: Shadic
While the power-up effect on Cosmic Geno is cool, I go with Shadic because it does damage, and brings Geno higher. This was a really close one.

Down B, Grounded: Indigo
To be honest, I don't love either of these moves... partially because I was expectong Cosmic Geno's down B to be ala lucarios final smash. I still go with Indigoo's because while the location of the hitbox, as well as the charge time, brings this move down, it stilll surpasses the not-that-damaging-liability-to-kill-yourself-not-multi-hit whirl that is Shadic's Down-B.

Down B, Aerial: Tie
I go with a tie on this choice becuase the hitbox problems, as well as damage, on Cosmic Geno's Down B are lowered, Shadic's becomes much more useful, having a decent chance to hit and a good landing move too.

Grab: Shadic
Cosmic Geno's grab range is smaller then Tiny Jigglypuff...

F-throw: Indigo

Gotta go with Indigos. it has great knockback, good damage and doesn't seem to be able to be DI'd out of.

B-throw: Tie
Shadic's B-throw isn't necessarily amazing; its better then Indigo's, though, as the actual throw has very little chance of hitting.

U-throw: Indigo
U-throw can be DI'd out of, but that's not why it won. Similar to fox and falco's up-throws, it produces a hitbox that can hit multiple people which pulls it ahead of an otherwised tied matchup.

D-throw: Shadic
Like Skieth said, Indigo's d-throw is broken. Not to mention Shadic's can set up for some aerial DI **** combos.

Winner: The two Geno's turned out to be tied. I feel that Indigo's Geno may excel in aerial combat, but partially because moves like fair, dair, and(partially) bair are broken. With these moves being evened out Shadic clearly surpasses in aerial combat; Cosmic Geno clearly wins on ground combat. I personally prefer Cosmic Geno because I'm an aerial guy; if ground combat is more yopur thing go with Shadic's Geno.
 
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