Prof. Oak's Lab: The Q&A Thread - USE THIS

[ChicknMonkey]

Interesting, but anything specific you're thinking of?

Idk, I mentioned Trick Room and I think Game Freak is starting to open stuff up more with attributes like weight for Low Kick/ Grass Knot but there needs to be something else. Maybe something along the leech seed route, or moves that work into each other that you try and set you opponent up for. Perhaps like a dig-earthquake or fly twister/thunder thing, something that affects other moves.

Let me take this time to say something I DONT want to see in future games. For one, if they ever make a 3 type pokemon, ill **** myself, its just overkill. On the same note, please no 2 type moves, that would make the game complicated and kinda interesting, but would ruin the classic rock/paper/scissors formula. Third, please no 4 stages, like Porygon Delta or some crap like that.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Idk, I mentioned Trick Room and I think Game Freak is starting to open stuff up more with attributes like weight for Low Kick/ Grass Knot but there needs to be something else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was sure Low Kick existed since Gen I with the same effect of dealing more damage to heavier Pokémon, no?

Let me take this time to say something I DONT want to see in future games. For one, if they ever make a 3 type pokemon, ill **** myself, its just overkill. On the same note, please no 2 type moves, that would make the game complicated and kinda interesting, but would ruin the classic rock/paper/scissors formula.

I don't see those happening, seeing as there are type combinations that have yet to be seen, so unless they've exhausted every fathomable idea, the worst I see them doing is introducing a new type. Plus, a 3-typed Pokémon could end up making the game needlessly complicated when the current system is already complex and deep as is. Same goes for multi-typed moves.

Third, please no 4 stages, like Porygon Delta or some crap like that.

I doubt that will happen, as they would have done it already. It's pretty much why we have alternate evolutions, like Gorebyss/Huntail, Vileplume/Bellossom, etc.. On top of that, if a stage 3 Pokémon does evolve, their stats have nowhere to go but up in most cases, placing their base stats to legendary levels and potentially breaking the metagame, unless they get banned to Ubers if they're strong enough. We also have to remember that Nintendo nowadays are pretty much status quo; the Pokémon formula has been working for a while, and I doubt Nintendo will add such huge changes to the later generations. Additions definitely, but nothing that will really deface the current formula. As they say, "if it's not broke, don't fix it".

Spoiler

Watch me be wrong for Gen VI, knowing my luck.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was sure Low Kick existed since Gen I with the same effect of dealing more damage to heavier Pokémon, no?

Got me, I didn't realize it.

Also, I feel if they were to go with a 4th stage pokemon, they would do sorta what theyy did with scyther and siccor, lower stats in some places but increase stats in others so both could stand alone. But of course with that logic why not just make a different branch like what they did with Gardevoir and Gallade.

Since I like that this thread is actually getting some decent traffic, let me add another question. What type Eevee evolution would you like seeing, since they generally only do 2 types ever even gen.

 

[mood4food77]

if they do add 2 more eevee types, they should be ghost and dragon, the two special types left

the dragon type being a fast physical sweeper

65/130/95/60/65/110

and the ghost type being a fast mixed sweeper

65/110/60/95/60/130

 

[UltiMario]

Actually, low kick has only had the whole weight thing since Gen III. It used to be a flinch move.

Also, I'd prefer if Draconeon had 65/130/65/95/60/110. It would actually be a solid mon then.

 

[mood4food77]

i actually will agree with that

how about this for the ghost then:

130/65/65/95/60/110 with a similar movepool to that of vaporeon (lots of support options)

 

[UltiMario]

I honestly think they're going to stick with the special types for Eeveelutions. We're going to get Draconeon either next Gen, or 3 Gens from now, and then that's it lol.

 

[mood4food77]

ghost should've been a special type, we didn't get a physical ghost pokemon till gen 3 and most of the ghost moves are of the special attacking side anyways

and besides, dragon and ghost are the most "mystical" types out there, dragons are always these legendary creatures that **** **** up and ghosts are undead beings that cannot be physically touched

they are also the only two types who are weak against their own type, while both having only 1 other weakness, it just makes sense

and why would we only get one eeveelution? that's boring

 

[ChicknMonkey]

The stats you mentioned almost seem too ideal for a competive OU pokemon. It's not above gamefreak to make an eeveelution that's bad or at least not great (looking at you, Glaceon). And if they are going with special types, which I admittedly just noticed, I feel like ghost type would be cool, but the dragon type would look weird, idk, I cant picture it. I really don't think that they should go into psychical spectrum because that would be just crazy. Perhaps another "eevee" pokemon of sorts to do that.

 

[UltiMario]

Having another Eevee-esque mon for the physical types is a pretty good idea. It would remove a lot of the novelty Eevee has with getting ****tons of evolutions, but two Pokemon branches that cover every type would be cool.

 

[mood4food77]

how about finish the eeveelutions, and then make another eevee-like pokemon but for the physical types, starting off with rock, fighting, flying

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Alright, new topic. What would the new "eevee" look like? Would it be 4 legged and dog like, sort of like the eevee's, or maybe humanoid, something that would work better with the physical typing? Perhaps even cat like, because eevee resembles a canine or sorts.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, with Eevee being a Normal-type, wouldn't that count as a physical form? I know it's only a stage 1 Pokémon, but it's still something I thought was worth mentioning.

 

[mood4food77]

eevee is not an eeveelution, it is not an evolved form

and the new eevee should be standing on two legs but not be exactly a human-like, maybe more kangaroo like

 

[Claire Diviner]

eevee is not an eeveelution, it is not an evolved form

Yeah, I kind of already mentioned that fact when I stated "stage 1" in my last post.

and the new eevee should be standing on two legs but not be exactly a human-like, maybe more kangaroo like

Makes sense, especially if there's going to be a Fighting-type, as it can use its arms for punching moves.

For some reason, I really like the DK in your sig. Don't ever change your sig.

 

[mood4food77]

haha, i won't, someone on allisbrawl made the sig, i don't think he does it anymore but it's his doing, not mine, he did a really good job i do agree

but i think i could agree with what ultimario is saying, only bring a dragon type eeveelution and then let another poke take the reigns, with that, we could have 8 eeveelutions and 8 new evolutions

so i guess it could work like that, would it have a similar stat spread as the eeveelutions as in:

Jurivi
Normal
Abilities TBD
55 / 45/ 65 / 55 / 50 / 55 (HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe)

similar to eevee except switch physical and special stats and then the evolutions have a spread of
130 / 110 / 95 / 65 / 65 / 60 in some way or should it be different?

 

[Claire Diviner]

Knowing Nintendo, they would probably give it a similar stat spread as Eevee and its evolutions. If not, then surely the same base stat total.

 

[Morrigan]

I have one question. Why is Bug strong against Psychic? Are psychic pokemon scared of bugs?

 

[Claire Diviner]

I have one question. Why is Bug strong against Psychic? Are psychic pokemon scared of bugs?

Same would apply for why Ghosts are weak to themselves, or why Poison is weak to Psychic. They just are, I guess.

 

[Morrigan]

I know it is for balancing purposes but it doesn't make much sense lol. I can see poison being weak to psychic though.

 

[UltiMario]

I'm fairly sure it has something to do with Psychic being "Mind" in Japan or something.

It STILL doesn't explain much but... something lol.

 

[mood4food77]

psychic being mind:

the mind is strong enough to overcome sickness (psychic > poison)
having a phobia to bugs is pretty common (bug > psychic)

the ghost vs ghost thing could be a battle of the spirits

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Mood4food explained why psychic is weak to bug pretty well, but the follow up question would be why Dark is weak to bug (besides the obvious balancing reason)?

 

[UltiMario]

Dark Type is Evil Type in Japan.

Evil and greed and **** takes over the mind etc etc

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Dark Type is Evil Type in Japan.

Evil and greed and **** takes over the mind etc etc

Yah but bug, not psychic. Bugs eat evil?
?
?

 

[UltiMario]

I have reading comprehension skills. Certainly.

Spoiler

I don't know.

 

[Morrigan]

I found this googling, I literally started typing 'pokemon why is bug' and it showed up before I could finish lol

Bugs are most active at night therefore most adept at fighting in the "dark".

Bugs eats grass.

Bugs break concentration despite your mental discipline.

That is the explanation of their three strengths

Guess this makes sense.

 

[UltiMario]

I guess they're adept at fighting in the "evil" too

 

[Morrigan]

lol I thought that too, but maybe "evil" isn't the direct and literal translation, knowing how Japanese is with words... they have like 1000 meanings.

 

[UltiMario]

No, Evil is what dark to actually is.

It was made to be called Evil so it logically counteracted Mind just by name for when they were balancing Psychic in Gen II with Dark and Steel types.

 

[exarch]

I refuse to think Gamefreak did anything concerning type strengths and weaknesses based on balance; I mean, compare Ice to Steel. They were definitely concerned about balance there. [/obvious sarcasm but y'all don't know me so just in case it isn't obvious]

Pretty sure they just threw differently colored darts at a 17x17 grid and kinda fiddled with it a bit.

 

[Morrigan]

What are you implying with the ice/steel thing?


Steel being strong against Ice makes sense.

 

[UltiMario]

I refuse to think Gamefreak did anything concerning type strengths and weaknesses based on balance; I mean, compare Ice to Steel. They were definitely concerned about balance there. [/obvious sarcasm but y'all don't know me so just in case it isn't obvious]

Pretty sure they just threw differently colored darts at a 17x17 grid and kinda fiddled with it a bit.

You do realize Dark, Steel, and a tweaked type chart were introduced in Gen II to balance out many of the type balance issues in Gen I, right?

 

[exarch]

Ice
(Defensive) # of Weaknesses: 4
(Defensive) # of Resistances: 1
(Offensive) # of Types Weak to: 4
(Offensive) # of Types Resistant to: 4

Steel
(Defensive) # of Weaknesses: 3 (better than Ice)
(Defensive) # of Resistances: 11 (better than Ice, and that's not including the immunity)
(Offensive) # of Types Weak to: 2 (worse than Ice)
(Offensive) # of Types Resistant to: 4 (Equal to Ice)

Ice having those extra two types that it's strong against surely makes up for the extra 10 resistances given to Steel. Game designers must have thought that Ice and Steel were equally viable types. Definitely balanced.

[collapse=Another Example]
Water
(Defensive) # of Weaknesses: 2
(Defensive) # of Resistances: 4
(Offensive) # of Types Weak to: 3
(Offensive) # of Types Resistant to: 3

Grass
(Defensive) # of Weaknesses: 5 (Worse than water)
(Defensive) # of Resistances: 4 (Equal to water)
(Offensive) # of Types Weak to: 3 (Equal to water)
(Offensive) # of Types Resistant to: 7 (Worse than water)
...
[/collapse]
I mean sure we could argue the particulars about how the different cross-sections of resistances/weaknesses have different impact, but that presupposes that certain types are better to be weak/resistant to, which is based off of imbalance between types anyway.

You do realize Dark, Steel, and a tweaked type chart were introduced in Gen II to balance out many of the type balance issues in Gen I, right?

Yes, so I guess I should say they threw darts at a 15x15 grid FIRST, and then added 2 more rows later. Never heard of hyperbole huh?

EDIT: Also someone trade me a Chatot so I can RNG abuse.

 

[UltiMario]

Oh hi I'm the Ice type 3 of the 4 types I'm Super Effective on are 3 of the most important types to hit in the game: Flying, Ground, and Dragon (!!!!!!!!!). I also happen to work well with some other move combinations (most notoriously Boltbeam) to get perfect coverage, and am one of the best coverage options in the game. I'm also the most used Hidden Power type in competitive, bar none. While many Ice types themselves tend to lag behind, Ice is an amazing type of move to have on almost any Pokemon.

All at the cost of having a decent number of resists (which are handily covered by Electric or Fighting) and being weak to some of the most common attacking types in the game, most notably Rock, Fighting, and Fire.

Hi, I'm Steel. You don't see anyone using Steel type attacks except Bullet Punch, Gyro Ball, and (only on Jirachi, really) Iron Head, of which are only useful on a small number of Pokemon and have small distribution. Even with that, each move is only used for their effect (priority, power for slow mons, flinching), not their coverage or actual ability to attack. In return though, I get the best set of resistances in the game by a long shot, 11 types! My match-ups aren't all amazing though, since I AM weak to some of the most common attacking types Fighting, Fire, and Ground (Earthquake!). My typing is STILL amazing thanks to typing Combos like Jirachi, Magnezone, Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn provide, even with those attacking types being common.

Are Ice Type Pokemon and Steel Type Pokemon Balanced? No, Steel is better. Partially because GF won't give us any decent Ice Types, they either fall back due to secondary typing (or lack of), stats, or movepool. Steels don't have this problem as often. Are the typings in themselves balanced? Absolutely.

 

[Ryobeat]

I always had this super theory for Pokemon, that there should be a pokemon game, named like, idk Pokemon Rainbow or something mentioning the collaboration of all the names, but anyways, It'd be cool if they had a game where you start out in the first generation(all same pokemon, gym leaders, and elite four) And what happens is, at the end of the champion, you have to travel to the next region(I havent thought of a reason on why this happens), but you have to leave the region, and can only take with you 3 pokemon Level 7 and under from your PC box(Dont have to take any, but have the option of taking up to 3) , then you fly out to the next region and start again all the way until the LAST champion, (Which would be the black and white champion) and then, Team (insert name of new villain name), waits for you on an island that you have to maneuver around with Team(Blank) Grunts everywhere, coming from different teams(Rocket,Plasma,Aqua,Magma) (Keep in mind that the Villain team will be the HUGE UNION of all the past teams) On this island, there are still PCs, no Pokemon Centers, but there are shops. And in those PCs contain ALL THE POKEMON from the past regions(Your old pokemon teams will usually be around level 50-60s and such). So you can design a team from the past 5 teams you've had. Then, you get all the money that wasnt used in the past 5 regions, and a EMAIL from Mom saying Goodluck! and gives you more money. You also keep the money you had after the last region of course. Then you go through the island, fighting all of the grunts(There will be a good amount of them) And then at the end, is the final 10 people to fight(They are in a straight line, and these people are Leaders of old organizations AKA, Giovanni, Captain Of aqua/magma, etc) and you will receive 6 extra Full Revives before walking line. And at the last person(The leader of the BIG evil organization, Note:you have not met this guy) his 6 pokemon team consists of all the past legendaries from the 5 regions, and 1 new one, which is a pokemon he created, just like mewtwo. You did not capture any of the legendaries because they kept disappearing until like, Region 4 where you realize they're being stolen. So you fight him, free the legendaries back to their habitat, and you can go catch them again. And you can return back to any region to do fun stuff (Like, there will be Battle Tower, Pokemon contest, Poffin making, that race stuff), and you can re-vs the Champions from each elite four, and once you get your first Level 80 Pokemon, the game notifies you that there is a SUPER Champion waiting to fight you with Level 80+ pokemon, (This is a fun event, you dont have to beat him, but if you do, you get some cool Pokemon that i havent thought of, maybe Celebii, and he'll be like "This pokemon came to find the True Pokemon Master, and i guess thats you" and then its yours. yay.) And then you go do whatever you want SO,

Add to this idea, say what shouldnt be there, but this is just a small summary of what I think should be made.

 

[exarch]

Almost perfect coverage anyway, 6 pokemon resist bolt-beam. (Lightning Rod Seaking, Volt Absorb Lantern, Rotom fire, Rotom ice, Magnezone, and Thick Fat Mamoswine.) And a slightly larger number resist ice-fighting.

While Ice is S.E. against "some of the most important" types in the game (although Flying is already being hit by SR,) it is also resisted by Water, Steel, and Fire; which are also "some of the most important" types in the game.

HP Fire is more common that HP Ice (as it is more important to have a SE hit on Steel than neutral coverage.) We could also look into specific tier and metagames, as certain HPs show up more or less commonly based on important individual walls.

For attacks, Steel does not have a 95 base/100 accuracy move, or a 120/85-70 or a 80/100/30% status move--ok kinda iron head for this one--or a 140/90 accuracy move, all of which are staples on common attacking types. The two best moves gyro ball and bullet punch, are used often enough when available to suggest that if better Steel moves existed with better distribution, they would see increased use. Steel actually has remarkable neutral coverage (meaning that a strong STAB attack would be a great boon to many an offensive pokemon,) but is unfortunately resisted by Steel, (lol.)

I'm also of the opinion that Fire Fighting and Ground are seen so commonly largely because they are S.E. on Steel. If you're an offensive pokemon it basically amounts to "Are either of my STABs SE on Steel? No? Use a coverage move that's SE on Steel."

What your side sounds like to me right now is "Fox is High Tier in Brawl because he has good matchups with MetaKnight and Falco."

Steel is better than Ice. End of story.

 

[UltiMario]

HP Ice is used more now because of the Super Effective damage on Dragons, Ground, and Flying. There's too much danger to be free set-up fodder on dragons, Gliscor, and Landy. A lot of the **** that you normally nail with HP Fire is very easily handled with other mons.

Steel better than Ice end of story is wrong though lol. As I said, you don't want the Ice typing, but hell you want Ice moves. Every Pokemon in the game gets much better with access to Ice Punch/Ice Beam than without. Steel can't say the same about any move except Shift Gear, which is a signature move and can't go on anything else ANYWAYS.

The whole thing you're looking at is Defense and resistances make everything. Ice is supposed to be an offensive typing, and that does its just just as well as Steel for a defensive typing.

I can't really prove my point unless I theorymon'd an Ice type that would be effective in this metagame. Steel has had a ****load of Pokemon with Amazing stats AND movepools AND abilities AND typings. Ice has... Cloyster... Mamoswine... Abomasnow... two of those three really aren't even that good either.

Not saying Ice is better by any means. Most steel types are better than most Ice types. By a LARGE margin. But saying the type is inherently at fault isn't the correct answer.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Ice has... Cloyster... Mamoswine... Abomasnow... two of those three really aren't even that good either.

Never count Weavile, Walrein, or Froslass out, they are pretty good in some teirs and with their own metagames.

As far as my side as to whether I'm pro steel or pro ice, i'm sort of indifferent, but let me throw something else into the puzzle. While both types get weather, steel's (sand) is much better than hail, which gives them an upper hand in that case and more opportunities to create strategies, although I always enjoy an awesome hail team, especially when Walreins in there with ice body and subs, ohhhhhh, gives me goosebumps.

 

[exarch]

I'm not saying Ice is useless--it has its uses; I'm saying Steel would be higher on the type-tier list (and not usage list.)

And no way is Ice's offensive prowess even in the same vicinity of Steel's defensive abilities.
Steel on Defense >>(>) Ice on Defense
Steel of Offense < Ice on Offense
Steel is better. It's not a balanced game, be it in individual pokemon, or down to the types themselves.

And while I agree Steel pokemon are better overall due in part to the many factors you listed, another reason is the fact that Steel's abilities are easier to emphasize and strengthen. This is because Steel inherently has more good qualities to emphasize, and thus is easier to make good. Because Steel is better.

I'm also doing my best to not consider individual qualities of pokemon and moves affiliated with the types themselves. So things such as weather, specific moves, specific pokemon, etc, I'm doing my best to ignore.

But regardless of what I write you're going to continue to say that Ice is good for offense and Steel is good for defense and thus they are exactly the same. And of course I'll continue to think that lol Steel is much better than Ice.

At this point, I do have to ask whether you think Grass and Water are totally balanced within the types themselves--and assuming you do, what your justification for that would be? (Because in my view Grass is inferior on offense and defense, making it unquestionably worse.)

I also like Ryobeat's idea, though it sounds long.