Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[the grim lizard]

Hey Wiseguy, what are you going to do when they confirm Falco and Black Shadow and unconfirm Midna and Black Knight??

 

[_the_sandman_]

Sakurai wants to represent more franchises out there. I don't think every franchise group needs multiple characters, they really only need one. Some exceptions of course being the Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, and Starfox series.

4 is enough for Mario, as well as 3 for Zelda, 3 for Metroid, 3 for Pokemon, and 2 for Starfox.

Sakurai is going to cram as many franchises as possible into this game, he isn't going to clutter space by adding more to the other franchises. Why do you think he made Samurai Goro an item?

 

[Masque]

Sakurai wants to represent more franchises out there. I don't think every franchise group needs multiple characters, they really only need one. Some exceptions of course being the Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, and Starfox series.

4 is enough for Mario, as well as 3 for Zelda, 3 for Metroid, 3 for Pokemon, and 2 for Starfox.

Sakurai is going to cram as many franchises as possible into this game, he isn't going to clutter space by adding more to the other franchises. Why do you think he made Samurai Goro an item?

Er-hem. Five is what Mario needs. I also wonder if Metroid really needs three. Samus and Ridley seem just fine, but if they really want Dark Samus, whatever.

I agree about Sakurai getting as many franchises in as possible, though. All of those retro games equate to their own respective franchises (Sukapon - Joy Mech Fight, Takamaru - Name no Musamanejo or whatever, Pit - Kid Icarus, Popo & Nana - Ice Climber, etc.). My guess is that the only franchises likely to get a larger amount of characters than they had before are Mario (please!), Kirby, DK and Metroid...maybe Starfox, Pokémon and Earthbound? Without Goro, though, F-Zero probably won't get another character. Only the big franchises will get bigger, in my opinion; all the others wll stay the same, so as to keep room open for other franchises to take part.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

3 for Metroid seems fine, seeing as ZS Samus, regardless of her transformation, still technically counts as a whole character (especially seeing as they aren't likely to use a b move transformation, so she'd even have a full moveset).

As for other frachises, 4-5 would work for Mario (Mario and Bowser confirmed, Luigi and Peach are a given, and they could use the 5th spot for Toad maybe or someone), Zelda will probably get 4, with the triforce characters and probably WW Link (might get a 5th character, though it's all up in the air who takes the next spot), pokemon would probably get 4 (Pikachu is the only sure one here, I'm not even certain Jiggs may return), Metroid would get 3 (see above), Starfox would likely get 3, Fire Emblem would get 2 as they did in the last game and there's no one character that could rep the whole FE series due to how it works (I'd love to say 3 characters, but even I'm starting to doubt it now). Donkey Kong is definitely getting another rep, seeing as Diddy is practically a shoe in, and DeDeDe will bring the kirby series to 3.

I would've said that both F-zero and Mother would've got another rep, but with Goroh, a character quite a few people felt was assured the 2nd F-zero spot, being cast as an item, I'm starting to doubt. Granted we're not sure F-Zero's not getting a 2nd rep yet, but I have my doubts now. And if F-zero isn't qualified to have another rep, then I don't think the Mother series is either, seeing as it isn't as big a series and hasn't even been released around the world, and only one game in the series has been released in the US.

While I'm sure Sakurai wants to have as many series represented, I think a lot of these series will probably just be AT's, and only a few new series will actually make it to playable character status.

 

[Johnknight1]

Metroid deserves 4, only Mario, Pokemon, tLOZ, and Donkey Kong has sold better, and Donkey Kong hasn't sold well since DKC3, back like 10 years ago. Anyways, it's more like:

Mario: 4 or 5, Pokemon: 5! tLOZ: 5 Metroid: 4 Star Fox: 4 Kirby: 3 Fire Emblem: 3

By the way, Star Fox outsells Kirby by a lot, so it deserves more, definitely! Plus Wolf and Krystal are both really wanted for Brawl, so I see no reason not. As for Metroid, it is over twice the size of every other Nintendo franchise (oher than the 4 above), so why doesn't it deserve 4 reps=????

O, and Pokemon being the former #1 searched word on the internet, making billions off toys, making billions off cards, and of course making billions off games deserves 5 reps, PERIOD! End of discussion!

 

[DonkeySmasher]

wai a second john knight if loz and pokemon deserve 5 i'm certain mario will get at least 5

 

[Arteen]

Mario: 4 or 5, Pokemon: 5! tLOZ: 5 Metroid: 4 Star Fox: 4 Kirby: 3 Fire Emblem: 3

By the way, Star Fox outsells Kirby by a lot, so it deserves more, definitely! Plus Wolf and Krystal are both really wanted for Brawl, so I see no reason not. As for Metroid, it is over twice the size of every other Nintendo franchise (oher than the 4 above), so why doesn't it deserve 4 reps=????

It's not that I don't think Metroid isn't deserving of reps, but the entire series is basically all about Samus. It's never been much of a story-driven game, at least one with significant focus on other characters. Ridley is the only notable recurring character other than Samus in the series. Just about every other character is hardly as significant and/or exists solely in a contained story arc. Dark Samus is relevant only in the main Prime games, the hunters are only significant in the spinoff Hunters game (possibly some return in MP3, but not known at this point, and beside the point), SA-X, Adam & the X virus are only in Fusion, and Mother Brain & Kraid are only in Metroid 1 and Super.

Samus and Ridley are the most important characters (that would fit in Brawl) in the series. After that, maybe Dark Samus as a representative of specifically the Prime trilogy. Considering how great the Prime trilogy is, and since DS is the most significant character from the trilogy other than Samus, she would also have a shot, but beyond that I don't think there are any other characters from Metroid that are worthy of playable status.

For TLoZ, it's a similar situation. In the end, it's all about Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. They are far beyond all other characters in the series in importance. Beyond those three, new TLoZ reps wouldn't so much represent the series as they would significant characters from specific games in the series. Such possibilities would be Midna representing TP, WW Link representing Wind Waker and the new handheld titles, Sheik representing OoT, Skull Kid representing MM, or Ylink representing OoT and MM. While these characters (or variations) may have played an important role in their respective games, they just aren't nearly as significant on the whole.

O, and Pokemon being the former #1 searched word on the internet, making billions off toys, making billions off cards, and of course making billions off games deserves 5 reps, PERIOD! End of discussion!

Also, there are a lot of different Pokemon the team can choose to grant playable status. They should be able to find a few great candidates from the hundreds of choices. On the other hand, the team chould just stick a bunch of Pokemon in pokeballs instead of giving them more playable representation.

 

[Wiseguy]

Wow. I’m known for my long quotes, but this one will me huge – even by my standards.

this update created two theories for me

1. Bowser is HUGE in fact he is around the same size as he was in peach's peril (event match) hopefully he'll have as much weight as he did in the event because If i remember correctly Bowser didn't die in that event until he had around 150-200 damage

2. if you look at pikachu in this pic, fox and mario in the cracker launcher update, and mario
when link smacks him during snake's entry in the first trailer you might notice something
It seems like they added some charecteristics to the characters They flinch and look at their hitter and pikachu is obviously scared. i know there are more examples but these are the only ones i can remember. I know it wouldn't change gameplay but it's cool in a graphical sence. am i reading too much in these pictures or is this possible

I think you might be correct. Here, Mario is clearly keeping an eye on his pursuer as he retreats.

we'll just have to wait and see besides it'll be lost for it's effort after 1 year of the game

anyway you FE players in the picture of Bowser slashing fox, who's flag is that

As Luke pointed out, castles and Black Dragon symbols were featured prominently in both FE1/3 and FE 10 - however, this particular symbol, while similar, is not identical to either. My guess is that it is either from the upcoming FE11 (which also stars Ike) or a generic FE map to symbolize the entire series. Either way, it looks awesome.

wiseguy i really hope brawl isn't as "balanced" as ssb64, as a very good player of both melee and ssb64 (played top players of each game) i'll say melee is more balanced. Ssb64 is balanced in the sense that every character is cheap one way or another, ssb64 is a more technical game dependant on combos and technical skill. Melee isn't as limited a player with good mindgames that knows how to read patterns can win pretty well with every character in tier(dependant on the matchups). Sure fox, falco, marth and sheik aren't perfetly balanced but they're not broken at all. Sheik players haven't been doing well at all recently, fox/falco are getting owned by marth recently and marths can have a hard time with characters like jigglypuff. Melee is of course flawed when it comes to balance, but it isn't all THAT bad. What renders some characters useless at points is their bad matchups rather than their placings on the tier lists.

SSB64 is a far more balanced game, because all the characters were far more evenly matched. Not perfectly, mind you, but any two characters could face off and still have a competitive match. Melee is more technical (and vastly more fun to play, in my view) but the four highest tier characters make is significantly less balanced.

Sheik is a broken character because she lacks any significant weaknesses to match her many strengths – making her significantly less balanced than Mario or Link. The fact that Fox and Falco are even more broken does not change this fact.

Having said that, Melee is still a pretty balanced game – and with enough skill you can compete with ANY character. I just hope that Brawl creates a more level playing field, so no character has a significant advantage over the other.

Wat happened to the my fellow clone-crazy Wiseguy I used to know=??? Ergh...don't tell me I'm the last person here predicting 6+ clones again...

I’m still as clone crazy as ever, and if it were up to me we’d see as many as 12 clones in Brawl. But my list is a prediction list, not a wish list and the revelation that Goroh is an Assist Trophy threw the notion of including a lot of clones to beef up the roster out the window.

Not only did it pretty much guarantee that Falcon would be the only rep for the F-Zero series, but it suggested that rather than include minor characters like Goroh as clones (thus increasing the size of the roster) there will instead be a smaller (hopefully more balanced) roster of 35 or so, while dozens (perhaps hundreds) of runnersup will be included as ATs.

SK is my fav character in the series! HAHA, no one saw that coming, and it is 100% true!

SK OWNS! I can’t wait to see him as an AT…

de-cloned the roster!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!! O, Black Mage is super awsome and all, but Geno or Crono would definitely be the best IMO, and have a much larger cult-classic fanbase. But I suppose BM at least has a better chance than Sora.

Geno is perfect rep for Nintendo-Square fans, while Sora is the perfect rep for Sony-Square Enix fans. Short of having them both in Brawl (my original prediction) having BM represent Square is the best compromise. He has stared in multiple FF games (spanning both Nintendo and Sony platforms) he is the perfect Square rep.

Dude, that is straight up bull. Can she instantly KO someone with one attack within 5 feet the edge? Is she used nearly as much as Falco, Fox, Marth, or Peach in tournies=??? No, and Pikachu and Kirby in SSB64 percentage-wise are used like 10 times more by experienced players in SSB64 than Shiek in SSBM.

It depends on the damage Sheik’s opponent has. Sheik aerial attacks can hit Doc out of recovery range after only minimal damage. That just ain’t right.

Plus I've never been 0 to Ko'ed comboed by Shiek, or even seen one do that on a youtube or anything, while I've personally been 0 to Ko'ed comboed by Kirby twice, and once with Pikachu (and I generally win 70% or so of my matches at least!) Plus, if she is so cheap, how come more people use Falco, Fox, and Marth=???

Sheik and Marth are equally broken and Fox/Falco are more broken still. They should all be either cut or nerfed into oblivion.

Can I see it=???

Also, I plan on adding artwork in the background, once my cousin shows me how.

I’ll PM you. Don’t worry everyone, you’ll be seeing it plenty after SR93 has to use it more an entire month.

Trust me, I read that like 50 times, and I'm positive. Trust me, and you'll feel smarter!

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

…NOT A PURE CHARACTER ADDITION…

It proves he apprciates a original moveset, while G-dorf could easily have his sword. However, no clone will take his place, unless the super-lame Black Shadow thakes his place! Heck, he's the character I would be happiest with not in Brawl (ie: Pichu>Tingle>Plusle and Minun>Black Shadow). With Goroh as a AT, G-dorf chances of remaining as a clone went up, for better or for worse.

Worse, I’d say. Poor Goroh…

Agreed, but no way DQ XI will top FF XIII, other than it's on the PS3 and not very many people will play it! *prays it comes to thee 360*

It terms of sales, DQIX will crush FFXIII. The DS has a massive enstalled base to begin with, and DQ is far more popular in Japan.

Personally, I’m looking more forward to DQ. Ever since I started FFIII I’ve preferred having my RPGs on a handheld. You can play your RPG while watching TV or riding on the bus or whatever.

It is overall considered the greatest survival horror game of all-time, and since it's the GC edition, plus the PS2's extra missions, plus better graphics and Wii motion sensoring technology, it's bound to be awsome. We finally go the perfect third-person shooter for the Wii, now all we need is MP3 (first-person shooter) with online, a TPS with online, and a second person shooter with online, lol!

Then the Wii will almost make up for the lack of GTA IV, Halo 3, Rainbow Six: Vegas, Gears of War, Resistance: Fall of Man, Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfare 1&2, etc. Well...almost at least!

Metroid has been confirmed to have no online. Sorry…

Marth is still big in Japan, if not bigger. With him on the Japanese VC, and him being popular in Japan, I don't see why not keep him. BK bleah...I like him and all, but Marth is much more important to the series, much more liked, and much more wanted. BK could make it if there are 3 FE characters as I have predicted, with it being one of the (if not the) fastest growing Nintendo series in terms of sells.

We don’t know whether Ike or Marth is more popular in Japan. We do know, however, that Ike is the second most requested character in Japan (according to Sakurai’s poll) and that worldwide, Ike trumps Marth easily.

Waluigi was the main villian of the last great and best Mario Party to date, Mario Party 3, as well as Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix. Sure those are spin-offs, but it is still a good size roll, and how does Simon deserve the spot=??? Barely anyone who plays Smash knows him, he probably isn't even one of the 70 most desired characters for Brawl, and there are liked 5 other characters who were main characters in the Castlevania series. In other words, replace him for the much cooler, super awsome, and ever awsome Geno or Crono!

Mario mix saw limited release (only a few thousand copies, I believe) and MP3 is only a single game in a series that is only a spin off of the Mario-verse. He has yet to even appear in a true Mario game.

Simon represents one of most popular, long running, and critically acclaimed series od all time. He appeared on Sakurai poll (which Waluigi was absent from). He is owned by Konami like Snake ( both were playable in the Smash-esque DreamMix TV World Fighters game). He is also very Nintendo-centric – appearing on the old Captain-N cartoon alongside Mario characters.

He also has a far greater potential for a unique moveset than Walugi – with weapons ranging from whips, swords and magic spells.

As for BK, IMO he'll only make it if there are 3 FE spots as I predicted, and if Roy, Sigurd, or Hector don't take that spot first.

I still predict that Ike will replace Marth as the original character and BK will replace Roy as the clone. BK is Ike’s nemesis and he appears in the two most recent games in the series.

Marth is more popular in Japan, and unless Sakurai screws Japan over he isn't going anywhere. My point is Marth is more popular than BK, and if the perfect Japan only character. Seriously, Donkey Kong Country and Metroid Prime is generally western only, and FE the exact opposite in the begining. Just look at sales, after DKC 1, no one if Japan really got it, after Prime 1, Prime 2's sales sucked (not even reaching 1 million, because again no one in Japan got it, and it was considered too hard), and FE sales were best in the Marth era, until the international release of the series.

My verdict: Don't screw over our fellow Japanese smashers, and at least give them Marth!

The best selling FE games in Japan were the GBA games, and ever since going worldwide more copies of FE have been sold outside Japan. Japan loves Ike as much as the rest of the world, so his presence would please all FE fans.

Dude, Sunshine's physics were totally diffrent, I've beat SM64 a dozen times (literally), and Sunshine 10. While not as revolutionary as WW or Prime, it is definitely a primaraly original idea that overall succeeded, as it should. The spin jump was added, sliding is super fast adn heavily improved, the levels are mcuh taller, deepeer, and better, the game actually has a story, the jumping is totally remade and has tons of added content, the levels and enviornments are almost entirely original, etc.

I would call those enhancements, not revolutionary additions. But at least we agree: WW and Prime were more revolutionary, and that’s basically my only point.

How did AC revolutionize gaming as much as IC, or even 1/10th as much as G&W, when the Sims had already made the real life concept system, and got it down=??? AC definitely revolutionized something, but not as much as IC and G&W. Pikmin combined puzzle-solving and RTS' into one beatiful package, which generally was ingenious and intriginly smart and original, though not as original as IC or G&W. New characters come and go, but G&W is here to stay, and hopefully Pikmin and Animal Crossing follow in G&W;s footsteps.

Also, a Ice Climber Wii would be pretty awsome as well, and I would totally get that game if it looked like I hope it would!

Game characters do come and go - and G&W is most certainly gone. If not for Melee, no one would even remember his games or even given him a name.

AC is a hugely popular Nintendo franchise at the moment (there was an Animal Crossing feature film and everything in Japan) and it is more than worthy of having one of it’s main characters from the GC and DS games appear in Brawl.

But the pros for Jiggs (who has earned it's spot twice), and Pikachu (who is popular only because of the show, and Yellow Versio) totally outwieght the cons (like 50 to 1). As a AC fan, I want Miis to be or rep, not Tom Nook.

Again, it’s what the AC fanbvase thinks that matters in this instance, and they want Nook as their rep more than Mii.

But Bomberman is more popular and reconizable! However, if you remove him, keep Bonk, and add Marth, Mewtwo, or Falco back I'll agree.

True, but the franchise he represents isn’t as popular as Simon’s. He also doesn’t have the same potential for a unique moveset.

Thakn you, Black Mage is much cooler. (BM>Roxas>Sora) However, Geno and Crono have a much bigger fanbase, and more reconizable, and have a much larger cult following. C'mon Wisey, you know you want Geno or Crono! *jedi mind trick like Ferro taught me*

I think BM is more popular today. It’s been a long time since Crono or Geno appeared in a game. BM, on the otherhand, appeared in FFIII, Chocobo Tales and Mario Basketball – some of the best selling DS games out there.

Not as big as the others I listed, and he is not as reconizable as the stars of the 3rd party series I listed. Take off FF and DQ from my list (which have little chance of having a rep), and that leaves you with:

1.Sonic the Hegehog: Sonic the Hedgehog - Most desired character for Brawl, PERIOD!
2.Resident Evil: Leon Keneddy - Loses spot to the much more popular, reconizable, and super awsome classic MEGAMAN!
3.All the Megaman series: Megaman - Can't touch the Blue Bomber!
4.Street Fighter: Ryu - Also owned by Capcom like the two above, but since Megaman is the mascot of Capcom.
5.Rayman: Rayman - He's old, new, and everything inbetween, but I don't think he has what it takes to make the cut into Brawl. Maybe next time=???
6.Kingdom Hearts: Sora - W00t, love the series, but Roxas would pwn Sora, even after being voiced by Jessie McCarthy!

Castelvania is a far bigger series than Rayman (which is a very new series and not at all popular in Japan) he is also far more well known than any Street Fighter character and about equal in popularity to Sonic, Megaman and ….Sora?

Oh, so NOW you support Sora for Brawl! Make up your mind.

His flying attacks could be super original, plus he can do stuff they can't. Dex3 can't fly...well he flys like Kirby in the Kirby series, but Kirby doesn't fly in Smash, now does he=??? Also, Pit probably won't fly (but will use his wings), but Ridley could be awsome with those wings!

Kirby and Pit can both fly for a short period of time, as will most likely Ridley. This makes BF not nearly as a unique an addition as someone like ROB – who would be unlike any other fighter.

But wat would his moves be=??? The only game he appears in is Mario Kart DS, and he races, like that could be a move, unless you include ROB 64, who just talks and repairs stuff. G&W got basically all his moves from him 20 or 30 something games, while IC got almost all their moves from their games, and had a few awsome games for Smash only.

Sakurai could come up with a completely imagined moveset, base his moveset on his movements in his original games, or give him attacks inpired by other retro games – like the NES zapper.

Ergh, do I need to explain why Pokemon deserves more reps tahn Star Fox, Donkey Kong, or Metroid=??? With the exception of Donkey Kong, Star Fox and Metroid haven't sold 1/10th the units of Pokemon, in fact Blue/Red/Green/Yellow version outsell both series...combined!

Well I said equally hard on all the series, I meant limit each series to the minimum number of characters – not give all the series the same number of reps.

Mario, Zelda and Pokemon deserve 5, 5 and 4 reps – the same numbers as Melee. Starfox and Kirby should each get three, Fire Emblem, DK and Metroid (with Zamus as a transformation) each deserve 2 spots on the character screen while the Earthbound, F-Zero and Yoshi series remain with one each. Each series get’s the bare minimum – allowing for more characters from new and retro series to appear.

I'm 95% positive Nook won't make it into Brawl.

Yeah? Well I’m NINE-THOUSAND percent sure he will.

Solid friggen Snake>uber pwnageable Big Boss>Revolver Ocelot. However, Liquid Ocelot (Ocelot possessed by Liquid Snake), the main villain of MGS4 looks awsome! Also, no one is too awsome for Brawl, I mean c'mon Solid Snake is in it! You can't get much awsomer than that!

You make a good point. But having both Ocelot and Snake in Brawl would just be too much awesome in one game. The universe would implode, I bet.

Obviously my list goes Brawl, Prime 3, then Galaxy, but here is my list!

1.Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots: Since I am probably going to get a 360 soon (or once it's available) I would like to know if this game goes to the 360 or not. The previous installments were epic, and if this game comes to the 360, epic story, super online, and all, I am going to get it, PERIOD!

2.Halo 3 (take that Microsoft haters!): It is a common fact that Johnknight1 loves Halo, and isn't a fanboy in his term of the definition (only likes 1 certain developer, or totally wants the opponent's rival systems to die, etc.), and I love the series. I'm hoping for more massive online battles, more fun, and less fanboys/morons (same goes for Brawl's online!). Let us hope that it turns out this way!

3.Any new Zelda/more of PH: Verdict-with PH coming worldwide, where will be the next Zelda we all live for=??? Another Wii Zelda is on the way I suspect, maybe in 3 or so years, but on the way nonetheless. Hopefully it tops the greatest of the series the way the great TP toped everything before it.

4.Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare: This is one of the games where good graphics, more tahn 60 FPS, and insane weaponry is needed, and we got it! This looks super intense, and I can't wait to see more of it! Set for a Novemeber release date, I'm sure it could make a good attempt to rival Halo in terms of online, story (probably top it actually), heck even sales. This game will flat out be intense.

5.Final Fantasy XII/Versus XII (Especially Versus): Sure this is set for a 08 release, but it looks straight up sick! The in game action, the stroy, and the Shakespear quotes all fit the 5 minutes of trailers perfectly! XD

6.Grand Theft Auto IV: I hate gangster games to be honest, but GTA's open massive, fun, and odd world is the exception. Thank god this game isn't a gangster game (though it may well be a mafia game), and something tells me this game is going to be good. Heopfully it isn't overrated like San Andreas or Vice City, the two best selling games last gen (which don't deserve it). Hopefully it deserves all the respect it gets vs. just getting it because everyone wants to be a gangster.

7.Blue Dragon: Made by the insanely smart makers of Chrono Trigger (it is said their IQs rival God's), this game has definite potential to be a epic for the ages!

8.Dragon Quest XI: Looks good from what I've seen, and though I've yet to get into the series, well I am very intrested in checking this game out.

9.Fire Emblem: Goddess of Dawn: Looks epic, plus it has Ike, so you can't go wrong, lol!

10.Kingdom Heats III: We could/could not get info on this, but just in case we do, I'll have it here.

11.FF: Chrystal Chronicales Wii: Looks pretty intresting, and I liked the GC one, for sure!

12.Devil May Cry 4: DMC 1-3's awsome combat style, similar to arcade style button mashing+awsome comboes, but involves skill system is amazing! Hopefully the 4th part of the series follows through with the greatest of the first three, specifically the 1st and 3rd, lol!

13.Assassin's Creed: This game involves a assassin killing people, and it looks like a super awsome Mideval/Renissance/possibly future assassin/stealth (killing) game. However, since I only really trust EA Montreal, I'm a bit worried.

14.Krysis: Day of Disaster: I'm worried about this FPS, because it is made by EA, and I'm not one to trust EA. However, this could be diffrent.

15.Battallion Wars 2: Looks intrestingly original, though I never played the 1st one. Why not=???

That's it for now, and look out Johnknight1's updated list is coming soon! Also by the way, Bowser looks sicker than ever, he looks like a villian for sure. Ganondorf might have a hard time toping that awsomeness and evil looks, lol! Simply amazing, first time since I saw the FFXII/Versus trailers any game's graphics has amazed me. Hopefully like Melee, the graphics improve a lot over the game's creation.

-Johnknight1!

Hey you broke the 5 game limit! How could you?!?

Just kidding, I don’t care.

That’s a mighty fine list, and a fun read to boot. There sure are a lot of games to look forward to. From where I sit, this could be the best E3 yet!

I’ll look forward to reading your new list.

You know what? I just thought of something rather interesting...

So far, every character that has a profile (except Pit and Wario) was a starting character in Melee. Now, if my theory is correct and they are only showing the starting character's profiles, then it is safe to assume that Pit and Wario are starting characters while Snake (who we all know is hidden), Metaknight, Zamus, and all other hidden characters will not be getting their profiles until after the game is released.

This theory is also backed up by the fact that Bowser's profile was released before Luigi's.

Until such a time as a known hidden character from Melee (Luigi, Jigglypuff, G&W, etc.) has their profile released while known starters from Melee (DK, Yoshi, etc.) continue to get their profiles released, this theory is strong.

Solid Snake's (or any third-party for that matter) profile would also break this theory.


This could give us a little insight to the roster's starting crew.

That’s an interesting theory. However, I think it more likely that they are revealing the starting characters in Brawl – they are just starting with the returning characters like Zelda and Bowser. I hope we see DK soon, as his new look will no doubt be incredible.

Your adding assist trophies too now? Sweet just another thing to look forward to in Wiseguys thread :D

How about Zant for assist?

Zant would be perfect! Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll include him in my next update.

sakurai quote "What, you think just because he’s huge, you can needle him with lots of little attacks and keep him off balance? Heh heh... Yeah, you keep thinking that." quote of the day
even sakurai has a sarcastic dark side

Indeed. But I already knew that when he decided to put a countdown clock on his site, get everyone riled up, and then have his first update with nothing but a list of composers and the battlefield map. He’s a strange one, that Sakurai.

I lent him my PS2, lol. Seriously.

Indeed. Thanks for lending it to me, ToxiF. It’s because of you that I can now enjoy Tales of Abyss.

This picture just screams: "You're screwed."

I'll level with you guys: I honestly thought that the idea of Bowser turning into Giga Bowser for a Final Smash was kinda...well, dumb and unlikely. I thought Bowser would've gotten some ultra-mega, super-dee-duper flame breath attack that takes up the whole bloody screen. Or, even better yet, he summons some of his infamous underlings (goombas, koopas, etc.) to wreak havoc on his foes. However, this update proved me wrong; it has also warmed me up to the idea of Bowser transforming into Giga Bowser.

I mean, look at the guy. This is what Bowser would look like if he joined the Hell's Angels. Absolutely awesome. Lol.

I wonder if anybody else'll transform into something when they use their Final Smash?

Smooth Criminal

I kinda expected Bowser’s super to be his Giga form, but it makes for a great update all the same.

There's been tons of speculation over whether Ganondorf will morph into Ganon but I don't think so because Ganon would a totally moveset than Ganondorf's,and it would be stupid to all of that for a few seconds worth of screen,besides it would be unoriginal.

Pig Gannon for Twilight Princess would be perfect for his transformation. He’s be as simple to program as an Assist Trophy – his only ability would be running around, destroying everyone in his path.

yay, internet. i'm not back yet, but i found wireless connection. as for the giga bowser update, i sort of assumed that this is what it would be. this also implies giga bowser is no longer a boss. i think the only reason they havn't put characters like yoshi and c falcon on the site are because they changed them a lot and are waiting for the right moment to give away there info. since we got wario's special moves, i think that every time Sakurai gives us a newcomer, he will give us some moves shortly afterward.
on the matter of assist trophies, i think Sakurai is implying that a whole lot of charavters will be assist trophies, as he said "some characters only the most hardcore fans will recognize". he has a ****load of characters to choose from. i think at least every character mentoined here on smashboards (nintendo character) will included as an assist rophy. no wonder it has taken him so **** long to work on this game. i wonder what other completly new aspects he hasn't revealed yet.

I’m sure Sakurai still has some surprises up his sleeve – like a new down-B attack for Zelda. Don’t worry SR, I’ve got that sig all ready for you when you get back.

I mained Link and Bowser in melee, and honestly, Sakurai has made Bowser look a ton more interesting this time around. I'm strongly considering giving Link the axe and picking up Bowser full-time.

Hopefully more people will play as Bowser this time around. Regardless, you don’t have to choose right away – just try them both and decide which you like best.

i love how in the picture zelda is ready to fight

while samus who makes a living killing large monsters is running away

Or maybe it’s just that Zelda wants to make friends. Samus is experienced enough to know when to boot it.

Hey Wiseguy, what are you going to do when they confirm Falco and Black Shadow and unconfirm Midna and Black Knight??

Sakurai wants to represent more franchises out there. I don't think every franchise group needs multiple characters, they really only need one. Some exceptions of course being the Mario, Kirby, Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, and Starfox series.

4 is enough for Mario, as well as 3 for Zelda, 3 for Metroid, 3 for Pokemon, and 2 for Starfox.

Sakurai is going to cram as many franchises as possible into this game, he isn't going to clutter space by adding more to the other franchises. Why do you think he made Samurai Goro an item?

In Melee, Mario and Zelda each got 5 characters (including Doc and Sheik) and I can’t see then getting any fewer in Brawl, since those series are as popular as ever.

However, I agree in principle. We will probably see fewer support characters than most expect in favor of representing more new series, like Pikmin and Animal Crossing.

 

[O D I N]

i love how in the picture zelda is ready to fight

while samus who makes a living killing large monsters is running away

XD This man speaks the truth. Hooray comedic irony!

 

[Inkslinger]

Wiseguy with all due respect if you really think melee is more technical, all ssb64 characters are far more evenly matched and that just the top 4 characters contribute to the unbalance of melee then I don't think you have enough experience with either.

Melees top 4 characters fox,falco,sheik and marth are lot more balanced than ssb64 ness,kirby, jiggs and pika will ever be. No 2 characters can just face off in ssb64 competitively once you know of the advanced tactics(other than the basic z cancelling, etc) the flawed characters fall into obscurity without even possessing a strong character match-up based strength, that low tier melee characters have.

Melee's top 4 aren't the cause of the disbalanced themselves but rather some individual moves. Sheik's throw, ic's wobbling and marth's grab range are definitive things that have to be nerfed (among other few things, but sometimes i hesitate to consider something like falco's laser to be broken as it takes skill to use properly) , whereas I know of tons of stuff that were awfully disbalanced in ssb64.

It seems you aren't that experience with either in high level play as this isn't just my personal view. Melee was a step foward in balance (I hope brawl is too), it has more possibilites (Di, throw based comboes) and doesn't posses such a weak limitation of "mindgames" among players that ssb64 had.

 

[Masque]

Embarrassing as it may sound, I totally forgot about Doc. However, the inevitable removal of Doc from Brawl opens up a fifth spot in the Mario series. Mario and Bowser have both been confirmed, and Peach will be soon. Luigi will likely remain a secret (tradition says), but there's still a tempting fifth slot. That leaves even more hope for my beloved Toad! =) Thanks for reminding me about Doc, Wiseguy.

 

[Drascin]

Hey Wiseguy, what are you going to do when they confirm Falco and Black Shadow and unconfirm Midna and Black Knight??

I dunno about him. I myself will weep like a baby and stay in fetal position for at least a few hours the same moment Midna is uncomfirmed

 

[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy with all due respect if you really think melee is more technical, all ssb64 characters are far more evenly matched and that just the top 4 characters contribute to the unbalance of melee then I don't think you have enough experience with either.

I suspect we may have to agree to disagree on this one, friend.

Melees top 4 characters fox,falco,sheik and marth are lot more balanced than ssb64 ness,kirby, jiggs and pika will ever be. No 2 characters can just face off in ssb64 competitively once you know of the advanced tactics(other than the basic z cancelling, etc) the flawed characters fall into obscurity without even possessing a strong character match-up based strength, that low tier melee characters have.

Admittedly, it's been a while since I played SSB64 and I didn't as deep into it as I did Melee so I'll conceed that it may be as balanced as I remember it to be. But I honestly don't remember Kirby having the same level of advantage over DK in SSB64 as Sheik or Falco do in Melee. Once the games comes out for Virtual console, I'll be able to offer a fresh comparison and we can continue this discussion.

Melee's top 4 aren't the cause of the disbalanced themselves but rather some individual moves. Sheik's throw, ic's wobbling and marth's grab range are definitive things that have to be nerfed (among other few things, but sometimes i hesitate to consider something like falco's laser to be broken as it takes skill to use properly) , whereas I know of tons of stuff that were awfully disbalanced in ssb64.

I don't think that any one move is to blame, but the fact that some character movesets as a whole lack any significant disadvantages to outweigh their strengths. Marth and Sheik, for example, have large hitboxes as well as incredible attack speed and power. In contrast, the IC's stats and fairly poor, making them only useful in the hands of a highly skilled player who can exploit tactics like the wobble.

I couldn't say that broken characters don't require skill. On the contrary, in order to use Fox and falco to their full potential requires robo-cop like reflexes. However, you still have the situation where Fo/Falco's disadvantages (being fast fallers, for example) and advanatges (incredible attack speed and power) do not balance out.

It seems you aren't that experience with either in high level play as this isn't just my personal view. Melee was a step foward in balance (I hope brawl is too), it has more possibilites (Di, throw based comboes) and doesn't posses such a weak limitation of "mindgames" among players that ssb64 had.

Well, I suppose it's a matter of perspective. I go to all the local Melee tournaments, I've competed against some incredible players and I've held my own. I know there are players with far more experience in advanced play than I, but all i can do is base my asessment on what I've experienced first hand.

Embarrassing as it may sound, I totally forgot about Doc. However, the inevitable removal of Doc from Brawl opens up a fifth spot in the Mario series. Mario and Bowser have both been confirmed, and Peach will be soon. Luigi will likely remain a secret (tradition says), but there's still a tempting fifth slot. That leaves even more hope for my beloved Toad! =) Thanks for reminding me about Doc, Wiseguy.

No prob. Toad is certainly a possibility, but given his limited importance in the recent Mario games (he seems to have been replaced with Toadsworth). I would argue that Bowser Jr. is a mor likely candidate.

I dunno about him. I myself will weep like a baby and stay in fetal position for at least a few hours the same moment Midna is uncomfirmed

...can't....talk....picking....pieces....of skull....out of.....carpet......

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Ugh, again with the Midna! I wish people would quit brining that up! First it was about Twili Midna, then it dragged through like a hundred posts! GOD!

 

[Masque]

No prob. Toad is certainly a possibility, but given his limited importance in the recent Mario games (he seems to have been replaced with Toadsworth). I would argue that Bowser Jr. is a mor likely candidate.

In recent Mario games, yes, Toad's importance has been less than paramount. But Toadsworth's status as Peach's bodyguard-of-sorts (hahah) also ups his chances of standing in as her B counterattacker, thus freeing up Toad. (Personally, I think they should just change B to Parry's Chargebrella or something, or even Psych Bomb from SMRPG. Something). Bowser Jr. is more likely if we look at recent games, but on the whole, Toad takes the cake. He's been there since day one, while BJ's first appearance was in Sunshine, if I'm not mistaken. Toad got his own trophy in SSBM, which shows that the singular Toad still exists and Sakurai recognizes that fact. We can only hope, now, that Toad makes it onto the playable roster. =)

 

[the grim lizard]

Ugh, again with the Midna! I wish people would quit brining that up! First it was about Twili Midna, then it dragged through like a hundred posts! GOD!

Agreed. I'm a huge LoZ fan, but I would hate to see Midna (or Zant for that matter) in brawl...show me they're important to the series first. Skull Kid at least was in 3 different games with varying roles (mask sale/friend, main villain/friend, keeper of the master sword/pain in the ***). I really don't want additional TP characters in there. "WW" Link is OK and suppose Vaati is fine, too, but...not those others.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

Let's keep it to the important characters.

Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda, that's it. No one else in that series is of any importance. 'Nuff said.

 

[Wiseguy]

In recent Mario games, yes, Toad's importance has been less than paramount. But Toadsworth's status as Peach's bodyguard-of-sorts (hahah) also ups his chances of standing in as her B counterattacker, thus freeing up Toad. (Personally, I think they should just change B to Parry's Chargebrella or something, or even Psych Bomb from SMRPG. Something). Bowser Jr. is more likely if we look at recent games, but on the whole, Toad takes the cake. He's been there since day one, while BJ's first appearance was in Sunshine, if I'm not mistaken. Toad got his own trophy in SSBM, which shows that the singular Toad still exists and Sakurai recognizes that fact. We can only hope, now, that Toad makes it onto the playable roster. =)

I guess is depends whether Sakurai places greater importance on recent game appearances or the series as a whole. We'll have to wait and see...

Agreed. I'm a huge LoZ fan, but I would hate to see Midna (or Zant for that matter) in brawl...show me they're important to the series first. Skull Kid at least was in 3 different games with varying roles (mask sale/friend, main villain/friend, keeper of the master sword/pain in the ***). I really don't want additional TP characters in there. "WW" Link is OK and suppose Vaati is fine, too, but...not those others.

Well, Sheik was included as a playable character in Melee after only one game appearance so I would argue that Midna (the main character in the latest and greatest Zelda game) deserves a spot on the roster as well. Zelda got 5 playable characters in Melee, and I can't see that number decreasing for brawl.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Ganondorf, Link, and Zelda, that's it. No one else in that series is of any importance. 'Nuff said.

To the franchise as a whole, sure. I'll agree with you. Midna is unimportant to the franchise as a whole.

HOWEVER...

In Twilight Princess, Midna was the central character and, thus, has importance.

Midna will be in Brawl. I will bet my Wii on it!


After reading Wise Guy's post:

Exactly! Melee had five slots. Take out Shiek and Young Link opens two slots. Add Midna in for one and some other character for the other (my bet is on Vaati.)

 

[Wiseguy]

To the franchise as a whole, sure. I'll agree with you. Midna is unimportant to the franchise as a whole.

HOWEVER...

In Twilight Princess, Midna was the central character and, thus, has importance.

Midna will be in Brawl. I will bet my Wii on it!


After reading Wise Guy's post:

Exactly! Melee had five slots. Take out Shiek and Young Link opens two slots. Add Midna in for one and some other character for the other (my bet is on Vaati.)

For the last time, Ferro: why does Young Link deserve to be cut? Is starring in 5 Zelda games since Melee not good enough to justify a return appearance and an updated look?

 

[O D I N]

In defense of Young Link: He's been in more games (technically) than adult Link. Adult Link is just cooler. I also say Adult Link very loosely, considering he was 17 in OoT (I think 17) and probably just under 18 in TP.

 

[Copperpot]

For the last time, Ferro: why does Young Link deserve to be cut? Is starring in 5 Zelda games since Melee not good enough to justify a return appearance and an updated look?

There are enough reasons to support him being left in, but there are just as many to support him being left out. He did star in the majority of Zelda games, but Adult Link is already in. I just can't rationalize having both in the game, because they're just to similar to each other. Show me a unique moveset for Young "WW" Link, and I might change my mind.

As far as why the older incarnation of Link is in the game to begin with, I just think Sakurai views him as a much more widely accepted character on the world scale. Aside from Ocarina (and Windwaker, to an extent), Nintendo could have just as easily put Adult Link in as the main character and no one would have been the wiser. Know why? Because they are almost identical in character.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

For the last time, Ferro: why does Young Link deserve to be cut? Is starring in 5 Zelda games since Melee not good enough to justify a return appearance and an updated look?

Personally, I think that there's nothing that the "WW Link" can do that Vaati can't do better.

However, if you read the statement, you would see that I said that there would be one more slot for someone else. And that I merely stated that I was betting on Vaati. I never said WW Link wouldn't take that slot.

 

[Gypsy Lee]

To the franchise as a whole, sure. I'll agree with you. Midna is unimportant to the franchise as a whole.

HOWEVER...

In Twilight Princess, Midna was the central character and, thus, has importance.

Midna will be in Brawl. I will bet my Wii on it!


After reading Wise Guy's post:

Exactly! Melee had five slots. Take out Shiek and Young Link opens two slots. Add Midna in for one and some other character for the other (my bet is on Vaati.)

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude. I just think that a series' representation should be kept to just the important ones. A series shouldn't get worthless, undeserving characters just because it's such a big franchise. I'd rather have my programming spent adding more interesting characters from unrepresented, yet deserving franchises, such as Captain Olimar or a Battalion Wars character.

 

[Wiseguy]

There are enough reasons to support him being left in, but there are just as many to support him being left out. He did star in the majority of Zelda games, but Adult Link is already in. I just can't rationalize having both in the game, because they're just to similar to each other. Show me a unique moveset for Young "WW" Link, and I might change my mind.

As far as why the older incarnation of Link is in the game to begin with, I just think Sakurai views him as a much more widely accepted character on the world scale. Aside from Ocarina (and Windwaker, to an extent), Nintendo could have just as easily put Adult Link in as the main character and no one would have been the wiser. Know why? Because they are almost identical in character.

By that logic, Luigi would have to be cut as well. Just like the Mario Bros - TP Link and WW Link are different individuals - but are similar in character and appearance.

I personally visualize WW Link as a luigified Link clone, with many of the same stats and a one or two new attacks (like his grappling hook). Certainly you would agree that IF some clones are to be included, WW Link should be included. However, you could give him a completely new moveset with a Deku leaf and Skull Hammer I suppose...

 

[Copperpot]

If there's one thing that the Smash Bros audience can take from these games, it would be to never doubt Sakurai. He could very well include 'Little Link' in Brawl and at the same time make him one hell of a fighter, one that people by the metric ton will kill to play as.

As far as your comment on Luigi goes, I have no argument there. By my logic, yeah, Luigi should be cut as well. I don't have a problem with that; millions of other people do, so I choose not to endorse it.

 

[OysterMeister]

Nah, I'm against the idea that Link in any smash bros comes from one game and one game only. If young Link gets a new moveset, it should reflect more than just one game.
Besides, Young Link can be made unique without even changing his moves too much. Behold:

1)The spin attack can become the hurricane spin, just make it last longer, change the focus to horizontal movement instead of verticle movement, and maybe add some serious cooldown time for good measure.
2)The bombs stay bombs, but increase their power and make young link carry them over his head. And let him place them too, like mines. This way they function more like traps than items.
3)The boomerang is can become the magic boomerange, which means greater control, something more on the level of Ness' PK Thunder. The advantage is that the boomerange returns, so attacking with the returning boomerange can be just as viable as attacking with it directly.
4)The bow can become the slingshot, which is another great Zelda standby. Anything can be done with magical seeds, or trajectorys here to make the slingshot unique. Heck, the seeds could even bounce a few times.

There, see? Decloned with a minimum of fuss.

 

[YosterDragon]

By that logic, Luigi would have to be cut as well. Just like the Mario Bros - TP Link and WW Link are different individuals - but are similar in character and appearance.

I personally visualize WW Link as a luigified Link clone, with many of the same stats and a one or two new attacks (like his grappling hook). Certainly you would agree that IF some clones are to be included, WW Link should be included. However, you could give him a completely new moveset with a Deku leaf and Skull Hammer I suppose...

Who's to say that a Luigified moveset couldn't include the Deku Leaf and Skull Hammer? Mario and Luigi started pretty similarly in SSB64, but the gap widened with Melee--to the point that we now use the term "Luigified" to describe a vastly different clone. I'd bet that gap is only going to get wider with Brawl...I see them truly becoming unique characters that happen to share some similar looking moves due to their roots.

Point being, I'm hoping for the same for TP Link and WW Link, really. Luigification at the very least.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude. I just think that a series' representation should be kept to just the important ones. A series shouldn't get worthless, undeserving characters just because it's such a big franchise. I'd rather have my programming spent adding more interesting characters from unrepresented, yet deserving franchises, such as Captain Olimar or a Battalion Wars character.

You know, that's a good point. Yes, certain franchises do have more clout and deserve more slots, based on calibur of games, sales figures, historical significance and whatnot. But, as the iterations of Smash keep coming (Brawl included), should we really expect to bring out the bench warmers from the big franchises just so they get more reps? Or is it better to pull out characters from the lesser known brands and the one hit wonders?

I mean, take the Zelda series. The three Triforce bearers are almost always the focus of the story, and the truly important ones. Everyone else tends to be ancillary.

But!

It's those lesser used characters that help to provide a unique flavor and experience to each iteration of the Legend of Zelda...so are they really any less important? One could argue either way.

Then again...

For a game that's supposed to showcase Nintendo's All-Stars, do the big franchise's second stringers outweigh more obscure newcomers? Let's pit Midna versus Captain Olimar. Midna played the pivotal role in TP, arguably driving the story and feel of the latest and greatest Legend of Zelda game. Plus, she's unlike anything seen in SSB so far. Seems like a good case for inclusion to me.

Olimar, on the other hand, represents a unique offering from the Big N, is a new franchise, and has recognizability by the average Nintendo fan (arguably Brawl's audience). Pikmin and its sequel were very good games, had lots of character, and a cult fanbase that would be very happy to see the Pikmin overlord grace the Brawl character select screen. So, Olimar has a good argument for inclusion as well.

Which one is the better choice for Brawl? I'm not really sure even I know my own opinion on that one

So, I'll leave that to all of you! I'm curious about your thoughts: flesh out the Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc. numbers with important ancillary characters, or buff the roster with fan/cult favorites?

 

[Wiseguy]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude. I just think that a series' representation should be kept to just the important ones. A series shouldn't get worthless, undeserving characters just because it's such a big franchise. I'd rather have my programming spent adding more interesting characters from unrepresented, yet deserving franchises, such as Captain Olimar or a Battalion Wars character.

I actually agree in principle. I wouldn't want unimportant supporting characters like Waluigi and Zant taking the place of Olimar or Nook - who represent an entire series.

However, I still consider Midna to be deserving - given that she was basically the protagonist in Twilight Princess (EAT IT, LINK!) which is a very important game in the series.

I love Battaleon Wars. Any thoughts on a character who could appear?

If there's one thing that the Smash Bros audience can take from these games, it would be to never doubt Sakurai. He could very well include 'Little Link' in Brawl and at the same time make him one hell of a fighter, one that people by the metric ton will kill to play as.

As far as your comment on Luigi goes, I have no argument there. By my logic, yeah, Luigi should be cut as well. I don't have a problem with that; millions of other people do, so I choose not to endorse it.

That was quite big of you, Copperpot. Most people here stubornly stick to their guns against all logic (something I'm sometimes guilty of) so it's nice to see there are still some reasonable people out there as well.

Edit: two people posted while I was posting. Hold on a sec..

 

[Wiseguy]

Nah, I'm against the idea that Link in any smash bros comes from one game and one game only. If young Link gets a new moveset, it should reflect more than just one game.
Besides, Young Link can be made unique without even changing his moves too much. Behold:

1)The spin attack can become the hurricane spin, just make it last longer, change the focus to horizontal movement instead of verticle movement, and maybe add some serious cooldown time for good measure.
2)The bombs stay bombs, but increase their power and make young link carry them over his head. And let him place them too, like mines. This way they function more like traps than items.
3)The boomerang is can become the magic boomerange, which means greater control, something more on the level of Ness' PK Thunder. The advantage is that the boomerange returns, so attacking with the returning boomerange can be just as viable as attacking with it directly.
4)The bow can become the slingshot, which is another great Zelda standby. Anything can be done with magical seeds, or trajectorys here to make the slingshot unique. Heck, the seeds could even bounce a few times.

There, see? Decloned with a minimum of fuss.

Who's to say that a Luigified moveset couldn't include the Deku Leaf and Skull Hammer? Mario and Luigi started pretty similarly in SSB64, but the gap widened with Melee--to the point that we now use the term "Luigified" to describe a vastly different clone. I'd bet that gap is only going to get wider with Brawl...I see them truly becoming unique characters that happen to share some similar looking moves due to their roots.

Point being, I'm hoping for the same for TP Link and WW Link, really. Luigification at the very least.

You both make good points, and while I can see the potential for weapons like the Deku leaf in a Luigified moveste, I have to side with OysterMeister on this one. WW Young Link doesn't just stand for Windwaker, he represents all Young Links. And since his bow, bombs, boomerang and spin attack are WW Link's primary weapons as well those would probably be best for his moveset.

You know, that's a good point. Yes, certain franchises do have more clout and deserve more slots, based on calibur of games, sales figures, historical significance and whatnot. But, as the iterations of Smash keep coming (Brawl included), should we really expect to bring out the bench warmers from the big franchises just so they get more reps? Or is it better to pull out characters from the lesser known brands and the one hit wonders?

I mean, take the Zelda series. The three Triforce bearers are almost always the focus of the story, and the truly important ones. Everyone else tends to be ancillary.

But!

It's those lesser used characters that help to provide a unique flavor and experience to each iteration of the Legend of Zelda...so are they really any less important? One could argue either way.

Then again...

For a game that's supposed to showcase Nintendo's All-Stars, do the big franchise's second stringers outweigh more obscure newcomers? Let's pit Midna versus Captain Olimar. Midna played the pivotal role in TP, arguably driving the story and feel of the latest and greatest Legend of Zelda game. Plus, she's unlike anything seen in SSB so far. Seems like a good case for inclusion to me.

Olimar, on the other hand, represents a unique offering from the Big N, is a new franchise, and has recognizability by the average Nintendo fan (arguably Brawl's audience). Pikmin and its sequel were very good games, had lots of character, and a cult fanbase that would be very happy to see the Pikmin overlord grace the Brawl character select screen. So, Olimar has a good argument for inclusion as well.

Which one is the better choice for Brawl? I'm not really sure even I know my own opinion on that one

So, I'll leave that to all of you! I'm curious about your thoughts: flesh out the Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, etc. numbers with important ancillary characters, or buff the roster with fan/cult favorites?

It's an interesting debate. I think the key is balance: you need to have some supporting characters from major Nintendo series and some cult classics as well. I think we'll see both Olimar and Midna in Brawl, but if it cam down to one or the other my vote is for Olimar. Midna might be the star of Twilight Princess, but Pikmin is too awesome NOT to have at least one rep.

 

[Inkslinger]

Well i gotta say wiseguy canada is lot less skilled than the US overall on both games, I don't see how you can see the full competitive potential of each game in such a location whereas where I live is filled with top players, that's unfortunately the case : (. Judging by your responses i gotta say you need to learn more .

 

[Wiseguy]

Well i gotta say wiseguy canada is lot less skilled than the US overall on both games, I don't see how you can see the full competitive potential of each game in such a location whereas where I live is filled with top players, that's unfortunately the case : (. Judging by your responses i gotta say you need to learn more .

Go sling an ink.

 

[Inkslinger]

lol resort to insults >_<.

Well i'll claritfy my point of individual moves that cause bad disbalance, DK only has a slight disadvantage over falco and it's the same case with Sheik. But it's that **** throw that gives sheik a broken advantage in the US/Japan version (luckily fixed in pal).

edit: my argument is towards individual moves causing broken disbalance in certain match ups (that's not present in ssb64), of course not being the sole cause of the disbalance themselves. With these few moves eliminated the balance of melee shines (perhaps sakurai caught on to this as pal fixes most of these moves)

 

[Wiseguy]

lol resort to insults >_<.

Well i'll claritfy my point of individual moves that cause bad disbalance, DK only has a slight disadvantage over falco and it's the same case with Sheik. But it's that **** throw that gives sheik a broken advantage in the US/Japan version (luckily fixed in pal).

What is an Inkslinger anyway?

I seriously don't think we'll come to any agreement on this file dude, so perhaps we should agree to disagree. I honestly believe that skill trumps all, regardless of the character you choose - but the highest tier characters prevent the game from being a completely level playing field. Fair?

 

[YosterDragon]

You both make good points, and while I can see the potential for weapons like the Deku leaf in a Luigified moveste, I have to side with OysterMeister on this one. WW Young Link doesn't just stand for Windwaker, he represents all Young Links. And since his bow, bombs, boomerang and spin attack are WW Link's primary weapons as well those would probably be best for his moveset.

Well, when you put it that way, I see what you mean. If he's specifically WW Link, that's one thing. But if he represents all the younger iterations of Link? Definitely a different story. Besides, I will admit that while playing WW I got a very strong LTTP vibe that made me feel very warm and fuzzy inside

It's an interesting debate. I think the key is balance: you need to have some supporting characters from major Nintendo series and some cult classics as well. I think we'll see both Olimar and Midna in Brawl, but if it cam down to one or the other my vote is for Olimar. Midna might be the star of Twilight Princess, but Pikmin is too awesome NOT to have at least one rep.

Hard hitting questions, no?

But I can't help but think about that balance. Melee had it almost perfect, but I wonder: who was overlooked for the likes of YL, Doc and Pichu? Hopefully it won't come down to those "one or the other" choices like my Midna/Olimar example. Well, I guess we really won't know the process in the end, not being the developers and all, but it's still food for thought at least.

 

[Inkslinger]

Inkslinger is a term used for good writers, don't as me why it's my screename, long story >_<.

I'll agree with you on the last points mentioned, like i said Melee is still disbalanced, but an improvement when compared to it's predecessor.

We both agree to disagree and we both agree that Melee isn't completely balanced, i'm satisfied : ).

 

[Wiseguy]

Hard hitting questions, no?

But I can't help but think about that balance. Melee had it almost perfect, but I wonder: who was overlooked for the likes of YL, Doc and Pichu? Hopefully it won't come down to those "one or the other" choices like my Midna/Olimar example. Well, I guess we really won't know the process in the end, not being the developers and all, but it's still food for thought at least.

Well, those characters were all clones so their weren't included at the expense of original characters since they took a fraction of the development time. However, I've heard it suggested that Mach Rider was originally supposed to be Falcon's clone instead of Ganondorf...

 

[Devastlian]

I'd go with buffing up fan/cult favorites. 'Cause, I mean, if someone's looking at the box and doesn't really know their Nintendo, then Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Bowser should be enough to make them want to buy it. I really don't see the necessity in having the three biggest franchises have more than four characters. I mean, for Mario and Zelda anyway, you have the main character, the princess he has to rescue, and the villain he rescues her from. Add in the brother who don't make it into nearly enough canon games despite his inherent awesomeness/the hero in an alternate timeline that takes place at roughly the equivalent time as the hero's from the other timeline (and then just chuck in some Pokemon to match this number) and you have the series' represented rather well.

I don't think putting in one less character than what was in the last game really matters when it'll probably be more than most of the others anyway. Star Fox, Fire Emblem, and Metroid might get three but any other franchise getting four is pretty out there.

Also, I always thought it'd be cool if the Young Link in this game were to be, like, an amalgation of the all the other Links. Like, he'd be his WW design but with TP graphics and detail, give him maybe the gilded sword from MM and the Mirror Shield from WW, and then replace some/most of his sword attacks with classic tools from throughout the series (like give him some canes, maybe the lantern, a hammer, and give him a couple different projectiles so he ends up being a clone of Link except he busts out different weapons for most of his moves kinda like Mr. Game & Watch).

Plus, maybe they'll put in James McCloud as an F-Zero representative and keep the kinda cool but still slightly lame link between Star Fox and F-Zero. <_<

And, I think MOTHER deserves two representatives even if F-Zero doesn't (I think it's kinda shallow to group them together like that :/). I mean, the Nintendog was in the first trailer so maybe they've been doing the whole assist trophy thing since the start. Or something.

 

[Wiseguy]

Inkslinger is a term used for good writers, don't as me why it's my screename, long story >_<.

I'll agree with you on the last points mentioned, like i said Melee is still disbalanced, but an improvement when compared to it's predecessor.

We both agree to disagree and we both agree that Melee isn't completely balanced, i'm satisfied : ).

Fair enough. Peace.

I'd go with buffing up fan/cult favorites. 'Cause, I mean, if someone's looking at the box and doesn't really know their Nintendo, then Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Bowser should be enough to make them want to buy it. I really don't see the necessity in having the three biggest franchises have more than four characters. I mean, for Mario and Zelda anyway, you have the main character, the princess he has to rescue, and the villain he rescues her from. Add in the brother who don't make it into nearly enough canon games despite his inherent awesomeness/the hero in an alternate timeline that takes place at roughly the equivalent time as the hero's from the other timeline (and then just chuck in some Pokemon to match this number) and you have the series' represented rather well.

I don't think putting in one less character than what was in the last game really matters when it'll probably be more than most of the others anyway. Star Fox, Fire Emblem, and Metroid might get three but any other franchise getting four is pretty out there..

I guess I could live with that, though I still think 5 characters for Mario and Zelda isn'y unreasonable...

Also, I always thought it'd be cool if the Young Link in this game were to be, like, an amalgation of the all the other Links. Like, he'd be his WW design but with TP graphics and detail, give him maybe the gilded sword from MM and the Mirror Shield from WW, and then replace some/most of his sword attacks with classic tools from throughout the series (like give him some canes, maybe the lantern, a hammer, and give him a couple different projectiles so he ends up being a clone of Link except he busts out different weapons for most of his moves kinda like Mr. Game & Watch)..

Meh. I'm not feeling you on this one. Sorry...

Plus, maybe they'll put in James McCloud as an F-Zero representative and keep the kinda cool but still slightly lame link between Star Fox and F-Zero. <_<.

F-Zero and Starfox thrive in the line between the kinda awesome and slightly lame. I think that would be great (though unlikely.)

And, I think MOTHER deserves two representatives even if F-Zero doesn't (I think it's kinda shallow to group them together like that :/). I mean, the Nintendog was in the first trailer so maybe they've been doing the whole assist trophy thing since the start. Or something.

Why does Mother deserve more reps than F-Zero?

If you are sincere about this whole "original series reps before supporting character" philosophy then a minor series like Mother should get one rep, the way I see it.

 

[YosterDragon]

Well, those characters were all clones so their weren't included at the expense of original characters since they took a fraction of the development time. However, I've heard it suggested that Mach Rider was originally supposed to be Falcon's clone instead of Ganondorf...

Ah yes, the clone argument. Forgot about that :embarrass Indeed, that has to be accounted for as well.

I wouldn't doubt that Mach Rider was supposed to be Falcon's clone. And if he was bumped for Gannondorf? I can side with that. You'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagreed with Gannondorf's Melee appearance (the fact that he appeared, not his clone status ). Plus, SSB was (and is) hurting for villains...so that factored in too, I imagine.

I'd go with buffing up fan/cult favorites. 'Cause, I mean, if someone's looking at the box and doesn't really know their Nintendo, then Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Bowser should be enough to make them want to buy it. I really don't see the necessity in having the three biggest franchises have more than four characters. I mean, for Mario and Zelda anyway, you have the main character, the princess he has to rescue, and the villain he rescues her from. Add in the brother who don't make it into nearly enough canon games despite his inherent awesomeness/the hero in an alternate timeline that takes place at roughly the equivalent time as the hero's from the other timeline (and then just chuck in some Pokemon to match this number) and you have the series' represented rather well.

The way I see it is pretty similar. The basic 4 Mario and Zelda reps are the meat of their SSB representation; anything beyond that is icing on the cake. And as for Pokemon? Point taken. Odds are, someone who doesn't know their Pokemon isn't going to know any of them but Pikachu, making the other 3 choices only relevant to Pokemon fans.

I don't think putting in one less character than what was in the last game really matters when it'll probably be more than most of the others anyway. Star Fox, Fire Emblem, and Metroid might get three but any other franchise getting four is pretty out there.

If all the major characters are covered (which they most likely will be)? It may not really matter if one less Mario, Zelda or Pokemon character is in Brawl.

Also, I always thought it'd be cool if the Young Link in this game were to be, like, an amalgation of the all the other Links. Like, he'd be his WW design but with TP graphics and detail, give him maybe the gilded sword from MM and the Mirror Shield from WW, and then replace some/most of his sword attacks with classic tools from throughout the series (like give him some canes, maybe the lantern, a hammer, and give him a couple different projectiles so he ends up being a clone of Link except he busts out different weapons for most of his moves kinda like Mr. Game & Watch).

That'd be pretty cool, actually. Heck, he could even be a model based on the old school Link art from LTTP or Link's Awakening, but with the awesome WW graphical style applied. The more the idea is tossed around, the more I like the idea of WW Link really being "Young Link's Greatest Hits."

Plus, maybe they'll put in James McCloud as an F-Zero representative and keep the kinda cool but still slightly lame link between Star Fox and F-Zero. <_<

Yeah, James McCloud was one of my favorite racers to use in X and GX...

And, I think MOTHER deserves two representatives even if F-Zero doesn't (I think it's kinda shallow to group them together like that :/). I mean, the Nintendog was in the first trailer so maybe they've been doing the whole assist trophy thing since the start. Or something.

That's a tough one to call. F-Zero has definitely had more games and more commercial success, but the Mother cult following is huge. Personally? I don't think Mother deserves another slot, but that's just me. And I was really hoping for a playable Goroh