Prepare to be Astounded One Last Time: Wiseguy’s Brawl Predictions THE FINAL VERSION!

[Numa Dude]

You talk as if Falco can't be decloned, just as Luigi, and Gannondorf are at this very moment.

GANNON-BANNED!

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Why not?
And why stop at 3? Why can't StarFox have its 4?



He's pretty cool, but I don't think he's very likely.
No offense.

I know man.

Why should I be offended, anyways? lol

 

[jimmysilverrims]

GANNON-BANNED!

I actually didn't notice that! Nice eye.

 

[Devastlian]

Woah! I didn't notice that on the new list, but now that you mention it, I'm at a deep conflict with that decision. Falco was a popular character, he was like Fox's right hand man, but I really don't want to have another saxrifice in roster... Oh, wait! Wisey, if you remove the rediculously improbable characters like Geno you can make more room for Falco! I mean, if on your list Sheik is returning, you might as well have the more likely canidates return too.

The problem with Falco is that 90% of his "fans" are the competetive player/enthusiast type IE tier whores. ...Well maybe that's a little harsh but, most of the people that play Falco, play him because of his fast falling, short hop lasering, easy spiking abilities and not because he's the smack talking wingmen of Fox and, judging by the changes made to Fox and the fact that a couple of the PAL changes showed up in the demo, all three of those aspects probably won't belong to Falco in SSBB. I'm behind the Falco fans in wanting a cool character back but I don't think his being one of the most played characters is good evidence because as soon as he's changed he's probably gonna lose most of those players anyway.

You make a fine point here, when I heard about this third party thing images of powerful icons sprung to mind, like Bomberman, Megaman, or Cloud duking it out. These third party slots are too costly to use trying to ressurect old characters. This goes for Geno too. Now, some people will say that there have been retro characters like the Ice Climbers who have gotten in, but Nintendo was able to do that because Nintendo owned those characters, and thusly, didn't spend any money trying to get them, with third party characters however, you need to finagle with another company and dice up the profit of the game with them, then give them commitment to the character,and in the end, it's just a waste of money and time because half of the people don't even recognize the character. Heck, I didn't even recognize the character when you put him up, and I play a pretty good sum of video games.

Oh, well good thing Isaac's a first party character...for fiftieth ****ing time.

Actually, here is where I need to intervene, as Nintendo already has a Kingdom Hearts lined up for the Wii, in my book that skyrockets Sora's chances amazingly as Nintendo would definitely want to publicize Sora then. And, believe it or not, you can have a character in the game without needing the whole cast. It doesn't quite stretch the mind to imagine Sora alone, fighting, and not mentioning any Disney character. He isn't Disney, in fact, he's a fish ou of water with Disney, actually more of a FF like character than anything.

What KH game for the Wii? You're not talking about that April Fool's joke, are you? <_<

 

[jimmysilverrims]

The problem with Falco is that 90% of his "fans" are the competetive player/enthusiast type IE tier whores. ...Well maybe that's a little harsh but, most of the people that play Falco, play him because of his fast falling, short hop lasering, easy spiking abilities and not because he's the smack talking wingmen of Fox and, judging by the changes made to Fox and the fact that a couple of the PAL changes showed up in the demo, all three of those aspects probably won't belong to Falco in SSBB. I'm behind the Falco fans in wanting a cool character back but I don't think his being one of the most played characters is good evidence because as soon as he's changed he's probably gonna lose most of those players anyway.

Good point, but that doesn't mean that he can't come back with a well deserved nerfing.

Oh, well good thing Isaac's a first party character...for fiftieth ****ing time.

Well then, I stand corrected, I told everyone that I'd never heard of Isaac before.

What KH game for the Wii? You're not talking about that April Fool's joke, are you? <_<

That Mushroom Kingdom Hearts thing. Nah, I know that's fake. I'm talking about the next KH game, it's apparently about Mickey and the history of the Kingdom Key, I don't know much on plot, but you can go look it up, I can't remember where Igot it from, but I did see a pretty darn cool trailer on YouTube.

 

[Devastlian]

That Mushroom Kingdom Hearts thing. Nah, I know that's fake. I'm talking about the next KH game, it's apparently about Mickey and the history of the Kingdom Key, I don't know much on plot, but you can go look it up, I can't remember where Igot it from, but I did see a pretty darn cool trailer on YouTube.

That sounds like the PSP one. Was it the one with the three knights fighting an old bald guy and his cohort?

 

[Bassoonist]

There are three Kingdom Hearts games coming out, but none of them are for the next generation consoles. They're for the PSP, DS, and Mobile.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Yeah, but the Wii one's supposed to focus more on Mickey and the formation of the kingdom, but will take place in the same time frame.

EDIT: Oh, DS? Yeah, perhaps it's that one, I'm not quite sure, personally I'm no big fan of KH, but perhaps I just got bad information.

 

[Erimir]

about Mega Man - Wiseguy ain't updating the list anymore, as he said. Except to note who he was and wasn't right about.

He doesn't have a good enough reason to cross off Mega Man yet tho. He can still be in the game - that podcast sounds like a no, but it's ambiguous enough to be nothing but a mindgame. Not saying Mega Man is in, but you must admit that he could still make it.

9. Belmont has no chance for the reason no Final Fantasy character has no chance....LACK OF MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTER! Still, I guess being on the secondary 3rd party character lists suits him, though if it's in order, Bomberman is above him. About time the Bomberman series sells 10 million units, after more games then Megaman!

Simon Belmont has appeared in more Castlevania games than any other character. Nine, to be exact. He was the first Vampire Slayer, and starred in the second game as well. He was one of the characters on the Captain N TV show. The two most iconic Castlevania songs, Bloody Tears and Vampire Killer, both originate in his games (and omg, it would be so hot if they were in SSBB).

He is clearly the most important Castlevania character when it comes to Nintendo. His only competitors in the Castlevania series are Alucard and Soma. Alucard has appeared on Nintendo systems (Castlevania 3 and the Soma Cruz games), but his most important appearance was on the PS1, so he's out. Soma has only been in two games, and is less iconic than Simon Belmont, and is less representative of the Castlevania series since he is not a Belmont, doesn't use a whip and doesn't use the subweapons (cross, holy water, etc.). Simon Belmont is an icon of 8-bit gaming.

Maybe Simon isn't the most likely character overall, but IF they were going to get another Konami character, if they were to get a Castlevania character - he is the clearest choice.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

about Mega Man - Wiseguy ain't updating the list anymore, as he said. Except to note who he was and wasn't right about.

He doesn't have a good enough reason to cross off Mega Man yet tho. He can still be in the game - that podcast sounds like a no, but it's ambiguous enough to be nothing but a mindgame. Not saying Mega Man is in, but you must admit that he could still make it.
Simon Belmont has appeared in more Castlevania games than any other character. Nine, to be exact. He was the first Vampire Slayer, and starred in the second game as well. He was one of the characters on the Captain N TV show. The two most iconic Castlevania songs, Bloody Tears and Vampire Killer, both originate in his games (and omg, it would be so hot if they were in SSBB).

He is clearly the most important Castlevania character when it comes to Nintendo. His only competitors in the Castlevania series are Alucard and Soma. Alucard has appeared on Nintendo systems (Castlevania 3 and the Soma Cruz games), but his most important appearance was on the PS1, so he's out. Soma has only been in two games, and is less iconic than Simon Belmont, and is less representative of the Castlevania series since he is not a Belmont, doesn't use a whip and doesn't use the subweapons (cross, holy water, etc.). Simon Belmont is an icon of 8-bit gaming.

Maybe Simon isn't the most likely character overall, but IF they were going to get another Konami character, if they were to get a Castlevania character - he is the clearest choice.

With the Megamna thing: What has exactly happened that makes Megaman so ineligible? Did I not get the memo?

But anyway, I can see Simon's inclusion as a definite possibility, but I see him as a last resort, as a thing Nintendo can use if they can't get their hands on a more iconic tird party character, like Bomberman or Megaman.

 

[Erimir]

Eh, I'd prefer Simon to Bomberman. Bomberman may be more iconic as a character, but Castlevania is more iconic as a video game series, to me. And Simon Belmont is the most natural choice to represent that series. So don't think of Simon Belmont as representing just himself, but he'd also be representing Castlevania as a whole, and the whip-wielding protagonists in particular.

I can see arguments for Bomberman (such as Hudson's good relations with Nintendo), but I don't think one or the other is clearly a better choice from a "worthiness" standpoint.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

You make an excellent point there, both have there strengths, both have their weaknesses, it just all comes down to what Nintendo is looking for.

On another note I feel sorry for this list, as when Brawl comes out it will be wrong. Period. That's my prediction. Why? Because of the inclusion of such impossibly improbable characters like, ranging from least to most impssible, Sheik, Takamaru, and Geno. Heck, I can see this list being disproved in just a couple of weeks, without even waiting for the game to come out. The DOJO can quite easily come out with, say, Baloon Fighter next week and BAM! Your final list will be permanently wrong. forever.

So Wisey, please reconsider and change your list so that it's more solid and likely. Thanks.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Wow. I'm so alone.

...

Bowsamus. Captain Olimarth. Kirbichu. Linkigi.

 

[jimmysilverrims]

Oops, I acidently made this one twice, so now I'm apologizing so that I have at least 10 characters.

 

[Devastlian]

Alright, alright, alright...

Remove:
Mega Man - It's lookin' kinda bleak for him...
Geno - Pretty out there and definitely not the first thing that I'd imagine from SE.
Takamaru - Rediculously niche and Japanese-only.

Spoiler

Even though that still applies to Lucas kinda sorta...and ya I'm keeping him in my sig.

Add:
Marth - Rather popular, important to the series, x other popular reasons.
Falco - As much of a douche as he his, he's rather popular.
Ness - ONE. CLONED. MOVE.

Spoiler

I compared them.

People...it's not over yet.

 

[Machspeed]

Ness doesn't have only one cloned move. His moves are extremely similar to that of Lucas.

PK Fire, is practically the same, if not Lucas has an improved one because it flies perfectly horizontal mid-air.
PK Thunder, looks very similar, again can be used for recovery, works just as Ness' did.
PSI Magnet, absorbs projectiles, same mechanics just as Ness' did, only thing different is the appearance.
The only thing different in Lucas' moveset is PK freeze.
And to top it off, Lucas is a starter.

With the shift towards Mother 3, in seeing Porky's theme, New Pork City, Claus being discussed as a PC, Pig Mask Army, I highly doubt we'll be seeing Ness.

Seriously, don't add Ness.

I also disagree with Megaman; I don't know why people are taking this interview as such as downright deconfirmation for him.

 

[Devastlian]

Ness doesn't have only one cloned move. His moves are extremely similar to that of Lucas.

PK Fire, is practically the same, if not Lucas has an improved one because it flies perfectly horizontal mid-air.
PK Thunder, looks very similar, again can be used for recovery, works just as Ness' did.
PSI Magnet, absorbs projectiles, same mechanics just as Ness' did, only thing different is the appearance.
The only thing different in Lucas' moveset is PK freeze.
And to top it off, Lucas is a starter.

With the shift towards Mother 3, in seeing Porky's theme, New Pork City, Claus being discussed as a PC, Pig Mask Army, I highly doubt we'll be seeing Ness.

Seriously, don't add Ness.

I also disagree with Megaman; I don't know why people are taking this interview as such as downright deconfirmation for him.

Appearance is what makes the move cloned. The identical animation which is allowed from the clone using the retextured model of another. So, even if PK Fire is pretty much the same with different angles, the fact that Lucas does a little hadoken move for it instead of thrusting is hands forward while pointing makes them not cloned. Not to mention the fact that all of his A moves and his radically different grab don't look like Ness' moves at all...except his little stick swingy move which is the only one that seems cloned...and we've seen at least six or seven of them.

 

[Machspeed]

Lucas IS the starter from the Mother series, and as I've said it's been a full-blown shift towards Mother 3, which Ness isn't a part of. The whole cast of Melee is not returning for Brawl, and Ness may just be one of those few.

Claus is the most likely candidate for another Mother spot if the series were to get one.

How moves look don't change anything, I mean look at Fox - his whole fighting stance has been changed.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You make an excellent point there, both have there strengths, both have their weaknesses, it just all comes down to what Nintendo is looking for.

On another note I feel sorry for this list, as when Brawl comes out it will be wrong. Period. That's my prediction. Why? Because of the inclusion of such impossibly improbable characters like, ranging from least to most impssible, Sheik, Takamaru, and Geno. Heck, I can see this list being disproved in just a couple of weeks, without even waiting for the game to come out. The DOJO can quite easily come out with, say, Baloon Fighter next week and BAM! Your final list will be permanently wrong. forever.

So Wisey, please reconsider and change your list so that it's more solid and likely. Thanks.

1.You think he cares so much if he's wrong? Sure nota ll his predictions are agreeable but all-in-all it seems close an ideal roster + He has the runnersup.
2.What makes you think BF Has a better shot then takamaru? The fish has already been shown in the summit and sakurai LOVES Takamaru's game (Third most faved gave from sakurai? Priceless.) Seriously he also makes a good WTF Character, Besides running into japan-only's is fun.
3.With geno...Meh you keep thinking that <_<.
4.Shiek has quite a good chance at returning actually considering how she was unique.

And about your ness-claus statment; Uhh Lucas represents all the mother protaginists like Ness did, And you state that geno has bad popularity when ness has good yet his popularity in japan went bye-bye and people liked lucas more ? Also note how sakurai likes Mother 3 A lot and it's the most recent one between the 10 year gap.

Seriously i don't see anything wrong; So instead maybe you should try making a list or make one for us here? Show us your roster, I'd love to see it (I'm not being sarcastic.)

 

[Numa Dude]

This update sucked. I hope Sakurai gets buttraped because of this.

 

[Copperpot]

You make an excellent point there, both have there strengths, both have their weaknesses, it just all comes down to what Nintendo is looking for.

You started off strong. Let's hope the last part of this statement sticks for future reference.

On another note I feel sorry for this list, as when Brawl comes out it will be wrong. Period. That's my prediction. Why? Because of the inclusion of such impossibly improbable characters like, ranging from least to most impossible, Sheik, Takamaru, and Geno.

Annnnnnnnnnnd, you lost it already. Out of the three characters you listed above, I'll guarantee that one of them will be playable, and I'll even wager that two of them will be.

Why? Because they are good characters with a lot of untapped potential. Get over it, Jimmy. The roster isn't going to consist of characters that only you like, which leads me to believe that you are going to be sorely disapponted if you continue to think so.

Besides, like Wiseguy's affiliation with Sheik, I've come to terms with characters I don't necessarily think should be in the game. It happens, and I don't complain about it around the clock. I know that, despite my opinion, it makes hundreds of other people happy.

Heck, I can see this list being disproved in just a couple of weeks, without even waiting for the game to come out. The DOJO can quite easily come out with, say, Baloon Fighter next week and BAM! Your final list will be permanently wrong. forever.

You're kidding yourself even more-so if you thought (even for a second) that Wiseguy's list was going to be 100% correct. Even if he changed it now, like you mentioned, he'd still be way off. Hell, a compilation of all of our (meaning SWF's) best debaters/philosophers/mind-readers couldn't make up a list that was 90% or more correct.

If anything, I'd say that Wise's list is most likely more accurate than pretty much any other. He has a wide array of popular characters with a few questionable ones mixed in, and no matter how you slice it, there are bound to be characters that many people dislike.

Just leave his list be. It serves it's purpose fairly well, actually, stirring debate and conversation. Isn't that what these forums are for, anyways?

 

[Ginger9001]

This update sucked. I hope Sakurai gets buttraped because of this.

So pretty much the confirmation of alternate costumes isn't to your liking?! Well...atleast its possible now. xD

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You started off strong. Let's hope the last part of this statement sticks for future reference.



Annnnnnnnnnnd, you lost it already. Out of the three characters you listed above, I'll guarantee that one of them will be playable, and I'll even wager that two of them will be.

Why? Because they are good characters with a lot of untapped potential. Get over it, Jimmy. The roster isn't going to consist of characters that only you like, which leads me to believe that you are going to be sorely disapponted if you continue to think so.

Besides, like Wiseguy's affiliation with Sheik, I've come to terms with characters I don't necessarily think should be in the game. It happens, and I don't complain about it around the clock. I know that, despite my opinion, it makes hundreds of other people happy.



You're kidding yourself even more-so if you thought (even for a second) that Wiseguy's list was going to be 100% correct. Even if he changed it now, like you mentioned, he'd still be way off. Hell, a compilation of all of our (meaning SWF's) best debaters/philosophers/mind-readers couldn't make up a list that was 90% or more correct.

If anything, I'd say that Wise's list is most likely more accurate than pretty much any other. He has a wide array of popular characters with a few questionable ones mixed in, and no matter how you slice it, there are bound to be characters that many people dislike.

Just leave his list be. It serves it's purpose fairly well, actually, stirring debate and conversation. Isn't that what these forums are for, anyways?

Well all he likes are popular characters who he thinks are popular, Lawl.
How about we just see his roster, Jimmy get your roster so we can all have a good Laugh...Uh time reading your opinions? .

 

[Numa Dude]

So pretty much the confirmation of alternate costumes isn't to your liking?! Well...atleast its possible now. xD

Except that "Wario ALONE is special". He's the only one with an alternate costume and alternate costumes is a stupid idea anyway.

 

[Machspeed]

I consider it hardly stupid, if K. Rool is confirmed, I would've loved to see his Kaptain outfit...

 

[Numa Dude]

I consider it hardly stupid, if K. Rool is confirmed, I would've loved to see his Kaptain outfit...

That's your opinion. IMO alt. costumes would be a waste of time.

 

[Machspeed]

That's your opinion. IMO alt. costumes would be a waste of time.

And thats yours. You can't really get mad at Sakurai, the Wario fans were really happy with what they saw on the update; there are going to be parts of the game you do and don't like, the only thing you can do is put up with it.

 

[Numa Dude]

And thats yours. You can't really get mad at Sakurai, the Wario fans were really happy with what they saw on the update; there are going to be parts of the game you do and don't like, the only thing you can do is put up with it.

It's not like this is going to prevent me from buying the game. All my wanted characters can be deconfirmed and all my hated characters can be confirmed and I'll still buy the game and enjoy it.

 

[Ridley FTB!!!]

It's not like this is going to prevent me from buying the game. All my wanted characters can be deconfirmed and all my hated characters can be confirmed and I'll still buy the game and enjoy it.

thats the spirit.if ridley is deconfirmed i will still buy it..

 

[Ginger9001]

Except that "Wario ALONE is special". He's the only one with an alternate costume and alternate costumes is a stupid idea anyway.

Yes, I know! Congratulations! xD

But think about it. We now know that there is no reason they can't make more alt. costumes and why use such a good idea on only one character? (Although Wario was very diserving for his true original costume)

I think he's going to have more alt. costumes that are going to be kept secret. We can't truly know if there are no other alt. costumes or not thanks to a few words said by Sakurai. We are going to have to play the game for ourselves.

But yeh, I do not know why you think the idea of alt. costumes is stupid but I'm willing to bet that the majority of people would enjoy them.

 

[Machspeed]

It's not like this is going to prevent me from buying the game. All my wanted characters can be deconfirmed and all my hated characters can be confirmed and I'll still buy the game and enjoy it.

Agreed. The characters I want in are just a preference, but if they are deconfirmed, oh well.

 

[raphtmarqui]

This was so stupid. There just being lazy not having more alt costumes.

 

[Ginger9001]

This was so stupid. There just being lazy not having more alt costumes.

Don't give up hope!!

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Meh. Most alternate costume ideas were stupid. With the exception of Dr. Mario and Overall Wario, most ideas were just meh-ish.

And don't call the developers lazy. They could use their time for better stuff than just an aesthic change on most characters that may or may not alter their moves too just so you can have the feeling a character is in Brawl. There are better things they could have used their time on, and alternate costumes are far from making or breaking the game.

 

[Stealth309]

Wiseguy, you phail for 2 reasons. One, no Falco, who was and hopefully still going to be, my main. And two, Geno. Sakurai said it himself one time to the gamefaqs board that Geno will not get in as a playable character or even an AT. That is why your predictions phail!

 

[Machspeed]

Rofl, gamefaqs board.

Because those boards are so special he comes and tells you personally Geno will not be in right?

[/sarcasm]

You phail for believing a Sakurai fraud on the gamefaqs boards.

 

[All We Know Is Falling]

Lmao, he actually believed that was Sakurai actually posting on the GAMEFAQS bored. Thats sad.

 

[Wiseguy]

Merry Christmas Eve, dudes! In the spirit of giving, I took a break from ringing in yueltide cheer to right this wall of pain.

Also, vote for Fawriel for friendliest memeber! Seriously, I can think of no one more deserving.

Let me throw out my few cents:

1.
Sheik had his/her/its time in the spotlight. Melee payed good homage to the N64, as that was what they had to pool from, but now Brawl is in the 7th Gen and we can't keep being hung up on the past. Going Twilight Princess with the style showed that the OoT style is just what it is: Over. Nintendo has a perfectly good (And may I say popular) Zelda game out there, why pool from the stuff that you've already done? Sorry, but it comes off to me that it's either the incredibly imaginitve and unique Midna over the already done, next please, Sheik. Zelda deserves to be her own character, not just some two for one character combo. Midna is simply the more logical choice. Or WW Link. Heck, even Vaati or Zant!

2.
Sample work for Sheik does not proof make, there were probably thousands of design ideas that were brought up for Brawl for every character that ever had a chance, and hey, don't AT's need styles too?

That and the fact that in TP, I'm sure that they had plans for having a TP style Sheik, but the thing was it didn't get in the final game and the fact that some TP Sheik stuff exists doesn't surprise me. It's just that Sheik won't be in Brawl for the same reason he/she/it/potato wasn't in TP. Direction.

3.
Ouch, what a blow to the Stafy fans with the decomfirmation. Sakurai didn't put it softly at all "Why is Stafy here?" making him a weak AT? Ouch.

1& 2) 100% agreed. I sincerely hope you are right.

2) As they said on “Show Me Your News” Sakurai’s Kirby series and the Stafy series are fierce rivals, so perhaps he was taking revenge for his fanbase. I say, more power to him!

You see, to me, when someone says something is likely to happen, I assume that they expect it to happen (considering that's what likely to happen means anyway). And you seriously would throw out Marth for the sake of "suprise"? The inclusion of Takamaru would be a suprise, but the exclusion of Marth would just be a giant middle finger. Taking a unique and very popular star of a series out and replacing him with a WTF character is not a suprise, it's a very unpleasant shock. Considering that Marth has more fans than either of those characters, you'd be displeasing many more people than you would be pleasing, which doesn't seem like a smart idea. Micaiah should not even be considered in the same league as Marth, yet you still think that uniqueness should over rule every other aspect that a character has. And Marth is a unique melee character himself.

No I still think it's a pretty good list. That just seems to be one major and irrational flaw to me (along the lines of when you took Sonic off of your list.)

Those are fair criticisms, but I really can’t imagine a final roster without a surprising WTF retro character like Tak. With Ike a starting character (judging by his presence in the latest SSE trailer) and Lucas seemingly Ness’ replacement I can imagine the final roster without Marth. But I will be happy for the Marth fans if he does make it.

Well, I dunno how good a prediction that might be. OoT's tenth anniversary is coming up next year and I dunno how people are going to describe TP, whether it be a worthy successor or off-shoot number three. For all we know, the next Zelda game, whenever it'll come out, could blow us away more than TP blew you away (which I'm positive they're striving for). Then again, the popularity of a secondary or game/sub-series exclusive character in SSBB could influence a future appearance happening (c'mon Takamaru cameo in the new Zelda). [/QUOTE

Anything’s possible, but I expect that history will be very kind to TP.

And I think people throw around the word "unique" too much. The only characters I see as unique are the PT's, IC's, and Z/S's...otherwise most characters just seem to be like Diddy or Dedede and, while having new and trademark attacks, really don't bring much besides new twists and combinations of old archetypes. That's not to say I'm not looking forward to every character but each character is really as unique as the developers make them. The three Zelda characters in question seem to be standard fighters for the most part. Midna'd be a small, light character with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to her hair and maybe some projectiles; Skull Kid'd be a small-average sized character with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to his mask's tentacles and maybe some projectiles; Vaati'd be an average sized fighter with some (proportionally) long range attacks thanks to maybe a sword or partial transformation and some projectiles. Give Midna Wolf Link and she runs faster and jumps worse and might have a higher range floor for her short ranged attacks and they'd probably be stronger. Essentially they'd be like weapon fighters but without the disjointed hitbox. Eh...hasn't really been done but they could make them unique if they wanted to. Just like with Waluigi.

I disagree. Having a tagteam PC like Midna/Wolf is something we just haven’t seen in Smash before: two characters who each lend their respective abilities into one moveset. I still say combining an agile four legged fighter with poor jumps and strong biting attacks with a magic imp would be mindblowingly unique.

[

interesting... can you direct me to the anti-pacman or pro-ness thread??

Just click on the search icon, my good man.

That was an amazing list that you put there wiseguy. You gave jigglypuff some credibility, though not much, but its good enough. it does sadden me that micaiah isnt on your main list but on the back up one. But oh well. I give you some major props on your list and i see that you lowered the count to 36 but 40 movesets. I aso realized that no animal crossing or Ds represntative is on there. that was sad too. Let's jsut hope that there are more than 40 chatacters in the actual game that would be great. Well thanks again Wiseguy. you're good.

P.s i liked the comment that you made under mewtwo. it made me die laughing.

~Shadow plusle

Thank you, sir. I’m glad you like my list.

I applaud you, Wisey. You have finally done away with the flim flammery and have made a rock solid, backed up list. I have been clammoring for this for as long as your first "Oops". I like your grit and courage in putting this stuff down in permanent ink.

Then again the bigger they are, the harder they fall. I.e: Geno. I've said it once, and I'll say it again: "He doesn't have such a good chance!" I mean, I can see you putting him on the backup third party addition list, but on the "must have" list? C'mon! He's a hasbeen! He's been in one game, that wasn't his, where he was a secondary character, made a decade ago, by a [then] third party company. Now Square's a second, but isn't exactly compliant with what some fans want.

Listen, It's a long, long, loooong list, so I'll start with some organization, starting with the main things people will say in defense for the little dude.

"He's popular."

Define popular. Geno currently only has a splinter of a miniscule fanbase compared to other characters that have gotten in Brawl, Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, Wario, Samus, Bowser, even the Ice Climbers, Pit, and Lucas have more fans, not to mentio the fact that they're at least known. Geno has been in, what, one game made years ago. Brawl is being more and more modern, and the majority of potential customers havent even heard of this Geno guy, and suddenly everyone wants him in? And even thinks that he's got a great shot?

Besides, Sakurai himself has defied the conventional "If it's popular, it's in." theory. What he's done has taken the classic, the iconic, and nostalgic. He hasn't, however, gone for the "third-party-secondary-retro" character. Why? Because he's smart enough to realize that it's a bad decision to go and mess up a spot with a character that no one will recognise.

"Square's frindly with Nintendo."

Seriously? How are you to call the shots on how entire multi-million dollar companies choose their fave five? I kid, but seriously, just because they've made a game (Mario Hoops 3 on 3) on the handheld doesn't mean that they're friendly, as handhelds are a free roam market, and if you want the best for your buck the you'll pick the best handheld, despite your intrests with the company. I mean, RARE is owned by Microsoft, but that didn't stop the creation of Banjo Pilot, Grunty's Revenge, or Diddy Kong Racing DS. did Rare suddenly feel sorry about the shift? Maybe, however Microsoft wouldn't let them feel that way, as RARE was (as they thought) the best steal ever. The point is that when it comes down to handhelds, it's Nintendo's feild, and if you want any of that action, you have to go with Nintendo.

Besides, even if Square was friendly with Nintendo, wouldn't they want to have a more popular, modern character, so that they would soak up the populairity, rather than an old character, who doesn't have a recent Square game that could get more money. I mean, the question is: Why Geno? This brings me to the next one:

"Sakurai likes Geno, he was in the poll."

Sakurai also liked Staffy and Little Mac, both of them are NPC's. He also put them on the poll, along with James Bond. Realy, people are putting too much sock on what they assume is Sakurai's feelings, but honestly, none of us can speak for him. We don't know him, and we cannot say what he likes or dislikes, and besides: He doesn't have all of the power. He still has to listen to the higher ups. Particularly when it concerns relations with such huge companies as Square, as getting a rep in Brawl is not only a new character, but also a sign of good faith between the companies, so if you cannot just go with one on a whim! You need to do a lot of conversing with the company, and so far there has been no evidence to any sort of meetings between Square and Nintendo, let alone any concerning Geno, of all people.

Geno's just not too likely, and I'm not doing this to be a jerk, all I want is for you not to make another mistake, and I have been trying to tell you this forever. So please, heed my warning, Beware the ides of March, or in this case, Geno.

'Nuff said.

I’m glad you approve of my abandonment of flim flammery, Jimmy. Now, back to Geno.

1) I don’t think Geno is popular at all outside Smashboards. I’d never heard of him before coming here, and I doubt anyone aside from the hardcore SMRPG nuts even remember him.

2) Square is absolutely friendly with Nintendo. In case you didn’t know, Dragon Quest is the biggest, most popular Japanese franchise ever. Much, much bigger than Final Fantsy. Square was pressured to stop releasing the games on school days, because the majority of students in the country skips class whenever they are released. Since the PS1 days, the series has been a major system seller for Sony. Then last year, Square blew everyone’s mind by announcing that DQ9 would be a DS exclusive (instead of PS2 or PS3 as EVERYONE expected). In Japan, this was bigger news than when Final Fantasy went to PS1.

IF Sakurai wants Geno, Square will give the rights to him just as they did with Mario & Luigi Super Star Saga whe he appeared in a cameo. And IF they want one of their characters in Brawl, they’ll put Sora in as well.

3) How do you know that Sakurai likes Mac or Staffy? Neither appeared on the poll as many times as Geno. Regardless, Nintendo jumped through plenty of hoops to get Sakuari to lead this game. If they will let him advertise for the Sony exclusive MGS4 in Brawl (note the MGS 4 music) they will let him do whatever he likes. Does he like Geno that much? Who knows? I don’t. But IF he does, he has a great shot of matter the cut.

NUFF SAID!!!

Meh, there could be a little change, like why not lucario? He is iconic and could represent the 4th gen. Plus, his moves and movesets would be easy to make. Stll, MAYBE you could add paper mario as well, but this is just your prediction.

I could see Lucario replacing Mewtwo, but I lack the knowledge of the series to make that call. We’ll see.

I really want to see Paper Mario, but I doubt he would get in over Geno or Bowser Jr. We’ll see.

geNO, he has no in his name...

one thing i still do not understand is that the f zero series wont get another rep, when yet the starfox series wich sells less wil get more than it, sakura has a crazy mind.

F-Zero GX sold very poorly actually, while the recent Star Foxes have sold decently.

So one guy's moveset makes Midna unique? If I made a Skull Kid moveset that was as ungodly detailed as his would you add him? If I made a Black Shadow moveset that was incredibly unique would you add him?

Yes, if you can make a moveset that is just as unique AND just as true to the character’s games(s). And if I were adding new characters.

this thread is so long it takes so long to load but nice thread!

Thank you.

I think K. Rool should been higher, been holding onto this for awhile but, here you go.

K. Rool is the main antagonist in DK games. Very exciting right? Well, the way I see it, DK is very underrepresented, and we are in need of villains at the same time. From DKC to DK64, K. Rool has appeared in MANY different forms, giving him ALOT of chances to have a very unique moveset. The forms include: Baron K. Roolenstein, Kaptain K. Rool, King Krusha K. Rool, and of course, King K. Rool. His most popular costume being the Kaptain K. Rool, if he had his musket, he'd be the only heavyweight with an aimable projectile. He has many opportunies throughout his forms, such as the helicopter on Baron K. Roolenstein for recovery, the boxing gloves for smash attacks, the signature crown toss; he'd undeniably be a fun character to play if all his personas where included.

Crazy to think he'll be added? I don't believe so. Kirby, DK, and Mother have all been neglected characters and attention for both the prequel of Smash Bros. and the sequel. Kirby has gotten two characters, Meta Knight, and King Dedede, while Mother seems to be getting a ton of attention also. DK is a leading franchise on the Nintendo, so it wouldn't be too unfair to ask for one more character, mind you a villain which we need more of. We also don't exactly have a ton of heavy-weights. Sakurai seems to be paying attention to games he left out, (SNES games predominatly) which is where he gets King Dedede, and Meta Knight from (On a side note, Geno's been discussed also, yet another game on the SNES). DKC was a very popular game on the SNES, and K. Rool was the villain in every one of them. K. Rool has alot to bring to the table, and a theory has been sparking up on the K. Rool boards lately. Bowser attacks Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, but the question is, why would he want their bananas? Maybe he realizes he cannot beat Mario, and he and K. Rool switched enemies just this time around. When you think about it, this isn't too impossible.

To sum it all up, with a unique moveset, villain, a humorous character indeed, he could be a very nice addition to the roster. I leave it in your hands to take what I've just said into consideration, and maybe get him higher up on the list of likelihood. You never know, most of the facts (some speculation I understand) stated have proved he's the most likely candidate, if DK were to get a new rep. Very pleased with your list so far btw, yes my only complaint is K. Rool.

Sorry, I took so long to respond to this one dude….

Very well reasoned argument, I must say.

Being the main antagonist in the series, I agree that the character is certainly important enough to justify an inclusion. Your point about DK being underrepresented at this point is perfectly valid, as is your point about the similarly underrepresented Kirby series getting 3 reps (though it’s worth noting that the Kirby series is near and dear to Sakurai’s heart).

But is DK still a leading franchise for Nintendo? Given the recently released abomination Donkey Kong Bongo Blast it seems like the company just doesn’t value the franchise like it used to.

Plus, your point about Bowser attacking the Kongs in the SSE vids is an interesting point I hadn’t really considered. Even if Bowser is helping his fellow reptile king pin, why is it that Goombas and Koopa Troopas are the grunts doing the dirty work? The level they are in seems to be DK themed, so why no Kremlins? One explanation is that Boswer is pulling double duty as both Mario and the Kong’s rival.

To me, the determining factor for whether K. Rool makes the cut is if he is unique enough to compete. You certainly make some strong points for this being the case (I think the helicopter is a nice touch) but to me it isn’t quite enough to make me think he’s a contender in a 36 character roster. Increase the number to 40, and I could definitely see it happening. Any more than that and his presence is all but guaranteed I suspect. That’s how I see it, anyway.

I’m glad you enjoyed my prediction and took the time to construct such a well made argument. As we approach the final unveiling of the final roster, we’ll see if you’re right about K. Rool.

sorry if this has been said but it seems king dedede standard special move is Inhale, based on todays update (Kirby: Special Moves) as many people pointed out, kirby is inhaleing with dedede's hat, which means that Wiseguy might of been a tiny bit right with the dedede being kirby clone thing. and we might see snake dedede. not likely but. we still might.

I was infatuated with your Part 2B Character List, to the point where I wouldn't mind if Bowser Jr. was in for it. That's kind of saying a lot but I really hope you're as correct as I hope you are.

BTW, I also loved the little side jokes. Sheik being a potato and the Captain Falcon picture. All made me laugh.
I applaud you, Wiseguy. :]]]

Thanks. 2B is my pick of the litter as well.

May I just add in here that I find it absolutely hilarious that so many people get so incredibly riled up by these debates, when ultimately our constant, inane, recycled arguments will ultimately mean nothing. The game will, in the end, be awesome, and we will all buy it, even if Midna, Geno, K. Rool or any of the others aren't in it.

*bows out*

Well, people are passionate about things they care about, and we all love Smash. Besides, these debates have kept me sane the past year waiting for Brawl.

does anyone else love the snake kirby hat as much as i do? Kirby with a beard is just plain hilarious.

*Raises hand and waives it wildly*

"I'm going to be a bias and totally love Mother 3 Since i helped work on it"
Again WG For all we know Ninten could've been in instead of ness but apparently y characters, Marth is the most popular lord IN JAPAN WERE SAKURAI IS MAKING THE GAME With a remake and is highly important to the series, Sure there's a small possibility that he get's dropped but there's also a small possibility that Claus joins the brawl under the DS Icon while Dr.Lobe goes under the Warioware icon and Luigi is in as an Assist with captain falcon .

Your idea is this basically:
Sakurai:Since i'm going to use my ignorant bias despite knowing that marth has a new DS Game and Marth is the most popular lord in japan were FE Is mostly there i'm going to give my third-most favorite character that i must LOVE And KNOW What moves to give different from him instead and piss off a bunch of my fans by giving takamaru marth's moveset with some tweaks and making ike really slow JUST To piss them off.
Staff Member:But can't you just keep Marth since Fire Emblem is huge to nintendo And We gave it Two reesenitives the last time around? Sure we have time! Let's please more fans by giving Takamaru an original moveset and bringing marth back.

Sakurai:
Option A:Bring marth back and add takamaru.
Option B:a total bias with no logic in the choice so i can give a 20 Years old retro character who is hardly similar to marth and DOESEN'T EVEN USE THOSE MOVES His moveset.

What is more logical? Apparently there are more factors playing in the situation, Again they both come from different series and are not alike, That's like saying "Claus WWLink Sora and Marth are all alike, Only one can be in brawl ,_,!" But we all know how sora uses magic, Claus uses his thundersword with many spells (I Can go on...) WWLink uses different items from link and Marth an agile sword wielder, It just doesen't work, Heck sakurai might not even think of that crazy idea.

Maybe you’re right. Sakurai decides to go with the popular reps from the older games and includes Ness and Marth INSTEAD OF Claus and Miciah. Maybe I’ll edit the old list right now… (I kid, I kid.)

Seriously though, I really think that:

A) A new retro franchise character is more essential to the roster than a second FE character, and Tak is an incredibly likely candidate.

and

B) If Tak makes the cut and a second FE character is included, they won’t include another speedy swordfighter over the incredibly unique Miciaiah. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.

HOWEVER if a another retro character other than Tak (perhaps Sukupon) makes it AND a second FE character is needed, Marth is very likely. OR, if a third FE character makes the cut Marth is guaranteed no matter what. That’s my theory, anyway. We’ll see hoe it turns out.

What about Chrono, from Chrono Trigger? You know you love him

C'mon, Wiseguy :D

I think he’s in my runners up. I wouldn’t mind seeing him make the cut, but between Geno and Sora he has some stiff competition.

1. Marth is a guarentee. He's staring 3 games, and is the future of Fire Emblem. IF Sakurai wants to help the series sell and rep the most recent game's main character, Marth is in. And Marth and Roy are no longer Japan-only characters (FE11 going worldwide, and FE7 having a Roy cameo apperance), so Lucas is the last remaining despised Japan-only character.

Ike using a two-handed moveset more similar to Link's power based moveset in Melee, in which Link is now more balanced, like in smash 64 (minus sucking). Ike is all power, okay speed, while Marth is all speed attacks, and is quite agile. They are bipolar opposites, and honestly Mario is closer to Ike then Marth! Another thing I can mark as "I was right!" Too bad about Goroh (despite being 5 month old news! XD). >_<

2. No Falco? NO FALCO!? FALCO!!!! Seriously, Falco is popular, and shall be in Brawl. If some nobody obscure character named Takamaru from a Japan-only failed game gets in over a smash fan's favorite character like Falco, Smash fans in general will be pissed. Hell, I'll raise a storm, because Falco is the s***, and is a Melee fan favorite.

3. Claus is probably going to be a alternate outfit, and Miciah won't make it, ever. Her game will not be the most recent, and that is a fact. MOTHER has sold less then F-Zero, and won't get another rep after Ness being pretty much deconfirmed. Why the crap give one game two reps in a series when there are three to work from=??? Doesn't make sense to me! XD

4. Takamaru comes from a Japan-only game that flopped, and he's never reappeared. Replace him with Balloon Fighter, if you must! XD

5. Issac: Hasn't appeared in a game as of late. Unless the Golden Sun 3 rumors are real, he is a big "NO!"

6. If it's one character on the Dojo, it's one character in character predictions. If it's two characters on the Dojo, it's two characters in character predictions. Yes, that is the rule. Now stick to it.

7. Lack of international retro characters. Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, and so on.

8. Sora has no chance. Two out of Five of his games are on Nintendo systems, only. Plus Sora is like Disney based, and I'm not sure if we want Mickey Mouse in Brawl. Let alone Donald Duck, and Goofey!

9. Belmont has no chance for the reason no Final Fantasy character has no chance....LACK OF MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTER! Still, I guess being on the secondary 3rd party character lists suits him, though if it's in order, Bomberman is above him. About time the Bomberman series sells 10 million units, after more games then Megaman!

10. Pacman is too random. Try Rayman as a potential 3rd party character. Also, don't be afraid to try other random ones. Put Master Chief as #5 and say how much you want him, and how awsome he'd be. Followed by "jk, guys" just to rile people up!

Good old JK1. How’ve ya been dude?

1) Read a few pages back to see my argument about how Ike, Tak and Miciah in combination could spark Marth’s downfall. I’m sick of this debate. I’d settle for a Dojo update proving me wrong at this point.

2) There are two different criteria for judging Tak and Falco. Tak fills the need for a crazy retro WTF character, while Falco is competing with his fellow Starfox reps. The way I see it, in a 36-40 character roster the Starfox and DK series likely won’t get more than 2 reps each, and if that happens Falco will surely fall to the more unique Krystal. If a third SF rep gets in though, Falco will return.

3) Well, Mother 3 is near and dear to Sakuari’s heart (he worked on the game, I believe) and Claus would be pretty unique in cyborg from. Miciah, while new and lacking in series importance. would be incredibly unique as a 2nd FE rep.

4) He's still popular in Japan, for some reason. Plus, Balloon Fighter's fish is part of the Ice Climber's stage.

5) According to Matt Cassimiasima at IGN, the rumors are true.

6) Sorry Mr. Rule-maker...

7) Pit, ICs, Geno and G&W all qualify. That's pretty good.

8) Just wait. If the Wii continues to outpace the PS3, KH3 will come to Wii.

9) Belmont starred in multiple games in the series, and starred in the first game in the series.

10) He's not too random for a WTF character...

about Mega Man - Wiseguy ain't updating the list anymore, as he said. Except to note who he was and wasn't right about.

He doesn't have a good enough reason to cross off Mega Man yet tho. He can still be in the game - that podcast sounds like a no, but it's ambiguous enough to be nothing but a mindgame. Not saying Mega Man is in, but you must admit that he could still make it.

Word. If I turn out to be wrong about Megaman, It’s my own fault for putting him in over my better judgment. I just knew if I he were MIA from my list, I would receive many a taunt as “Mr. Sonic-isn’t-in-Brawl.” Who knows, maybe he’ll still make the cut…

Alright, alright, alright...

Remove:
Mega Man - It's lookin' kinda bleak for him...
Geno - Pretty out there and definitely not the first thing that I'd imagine from SE.
Takamaru - Rediculously niche and Japanese-only.

Spoiler

Even though that still applies to Lucas kinda sorta...and ya I'm keeping him in my sig.

Add:
Marth - Rather popular, important to the series, x other popular reasons.
Falco - As much of a douche as he his, he's rather popular.
Ness - ONE. CLONED. MOVE.

Spoiler

I compared them.

People...it's not over yet.

Like I said, this list is final. I will let the chips fall where they may and take my lumps with each deconfirmation.

I think his niche status actually works for Tak. No one knows who he is, so he’s perfect for a WTF character. Same with Geno, really.

Lucas only has one cloned move?

Plus, the latest trailer shows him swinging a bat. Maybe Ness will pull through against all odds, but I until we see clones appear my guess would be not.

Except that "Wario ALONE is special". He's the only one with an alternate costume and alternate costumes is a stupid idea anyway.

Weird choice, if you ask me. Either go alt costume crazy or don’t use any. Doesn’t concern me too much, though.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Wiseguy, you phail for 2 reasons. One, no Falco, who was and hopefully still going to be, my main. And two, Geno. Sakurai said it himself one time to the gamefaqs board that Geno will not get in as a playable character or even an AT. That is why your predictions phail!

That's ****in' hilarious...

1) You believe Gamefaqs

2) You believe Sakurai POSTED at GAMEFAQS...

LOFL

 

[jimmysilverrims]

You started off strong. Let's hope the last part of this statement sticks for future reference.

Thanks, and I feel that you always colaborate your statements in an encouraging and constructivve format too.

Annnnnnnnnnnd, you lost it already. Out of the three characters you listed above, I'll guarantee that one of them will be playable, and I'll even wager that two of them will be.

Sure, I infact see at least one of them getting in too, but the fact is that between the three fo them put together they don't have even half the chance as other characters put on the must have list, like Olimar, or Ridley, but are liseted as such. I realize that one could potentially get in, hey, SSB is known for being unpredictable. However, it is not rediculously random game either, and all of the facts point against these characters, all they hold is a wild card of Sakurai's intrest, and even that can be trumped by a great number of forces, that include, but are not limited to, third party ownership, lack of recognisability, butchering physics and timelines, price, and marketability.

Why? Because they are good characters with a lot of untapped potential. Get over it, Jimmy. The roster isn't going to consist of characters that only you like, which leads me to believe that you are going to be sorely disapponted if you continue to think so.

Sigh, for the final time everybody: I like Geno! He's a **** good character, and the possibility of seeing him brough back to Brawly glory would be, in a word, sweet. I thought Sheik was a cool character in Melee, crazy strong, but with unique moves, and the ninjatasticness won me over, as I really wanted to see Sheik fight in Oot, but didn't, so seeing Sheik in Melee was pretty freekin' cool. I don't know much on Takamaru, but he (she?) looks like they'd bring a very unique samurai style to sword fighting.

All of those characters sound awesome to play as, and trust me, if they get in I'll play them all, but the thing is I try not to be bias and pull away frm my opinion and look at the facts, and currently, all of the facts are telling me no.

Besides, like Wiseguy's affiliation with Sheik, I've come to terms with characters I don't necessarily think should be in the game. It happens, and I don't complain about it around the clock. I know that, despite my opinion, it makes hundreds of other people happy.

I try not to complain much, and I'm kinda figuring out that this list is never going to change, but debate is what keeps this thread alive, and I like debating, if that makes me seem repetitive, I'm sorry, but it's all in good fun.

You're kidding yourself even more-so if you thought (even for a second) that Wiseguy's list was going to be 100% correct. Even if he changed it now, like you mentioned, he'd still be way off. Hell, a compilation of all of our (meaning SWF's) best debaters/philosophers/mind-readers couldn't make up a list that was 90% or more correct.

Hey, the chances are... a 40 roster, minus the 16 confirmed, that's 40^24, so...2.81474976710656e+38 : 1, that's good odds, right? Right!? Nah, I know that it's a billion times easier to be wrong than right, especially in this instance, but it is possible, and wishful thinking can't possibly be a crime... right?

If anything, I'd say that Wise's list is most likely more accurate than pretty much any other. He has a wide array of popular characters with a few questionable ones mixed in, and no matter how you slice it, there are bound to be characters that many people dislike.

Just leave his list be. It serves it's purpose fairly well, actually, stirring debate and conversation. Isn't that what these forums are for, anyways?

Eh, true enough, alright, I'll stop bothering Wisey, but what else am I supposed to do here besides discussing the roster?

...

Kirbowser.