Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)

[Conviction]

Soo I'ma chill. I understand the MU is even Chuee* (Happy? XD) But from what I'm getting you're making it seem that ZSS ***** Fox still.

LOL sorry Seven. Fox is a furry. Furry=Fun. XD

 

[Chuee]

not **** but an advantage.

 

[Conviction]

_._ -.- >.> <.< 0.0

Even the ZSS mainers aren't saying it's an advantage. 50:50 seems the verdict both sides agree on.

 

[Chuee]

55-45 <.<
You can't make me go any more than that.

 

[Conviction]

Well it's not up to you XD it's up to the ZSSs. 50-50 is what we agree on basically.

 

[Chuee]

Ok next discussion.
Lucas
Get at me >:D

 

[DMG]

There is no way Snakeee/top level ZSS players ACTUALLY AGREE that Fox goes 50:50 with her. Fox is not Wario. He can't play the "won't get grabbed/Dsmashed" card like Wario can.

 

[Kinzer]

its pretty irrelevant what order people are in passed B tier anyways IMO.

Low-tier events would like to have a word with you.

Reppin' 'dat Ike/Bowser/PT/whoever else is top of D-Tier like no tomorrow.

 

[Conviction]

There is no way Snakeee/top level ZSS players ACTUALLY AGREE that Fox goes 50:50 with her. Fox is not Wario. He can't play the "won't get grabbed/Dsmashed" card like Wario can.

Sorry homie he does(even though I thought it was kinda wierd). Yes way.

 

[Chuee]

I'm agreeing with DMG because he picked up lucas, and he is partially right.

 

[Conviction]

Fox is hard Dsmash never said anything about grabbing even because of ZZS's slow grab Fox can be safe on it.

 

[DMG]

Has nothing to do with getting grabbed. My point is when someone says the argument of "Avoid this **** tactic from this character", that FOX usually doesn't fit the profile.

 

[Conviction]

This MU he does. The reason I'm not explaining is because its been explained.

 

[DMG]

I called you out on it and I'm right. Lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Fox is hard Dsmash never said anything about grabbing even because of ZZS's slow grab Fox can be safe on it.

That was a pikachu reference.


That said, dsmash is relatively unpunishable, and does have a reasonably high vertical range.

On the other hand, it's frame 20.



Ehhh, I think DMG over-estimates it's influence and you under-estimate it's influence.


I may not be "lol-phail" because of d-smash, but it certainly has an effect.

 

[CRASHiC]

Down smash sucks. good luck ever landing it in a match.

 

[Nefarious B]

It doesn't suck, it takes a mix of matchup knowledge and prediction to land, but that's like any punishment move.

 

[CRASHiC]

I'm over exaggerating of course, but its very rare to see it happen more than once in a match in top level.

 

[Chuee]

lol crashic because startup determines whether a move is good or not.

 

[Conviction]

Crashic is post for truth.

EDIT: Chuee Ganon's Utilt?

 

[CRASHiC]

lol crashic because startup determines whether a move is good or not.

No, but the frequency to get it off in a match does. Down smash can be very situational in a lot of matchups, Fox included. People who look at ZSS as "space with down b, then hit with down smash" are rather behind, given they don't have many ZSSes to look at.

 

[Chuee]

lol Ganon's utilt is like 200+ frames. ZSS dsmash is 20 frames.
lol spacing with down-b.
Yes, I know you meant side-b. I know ZSS mains don't use that often anymore.

 

[Lightning93]

Top characters do not include ROB and D3 is the exception. We're left w/ Falco, Snake, Diddy and MK, according to your post.
They all have the slight advantage and MK is a 40:60 counter.

Snake, MK, and Diddy are especially considered 50:50. I would even say Falco, but the general statement there is 55:45 so I won't go too much into that. Not to sound mean, but where are you getting your information from?

Why oh why do character boards always have to make their MUs seem better than they are.
No matter how many times you say Fox won't get Dsmashed, he still will.

You already went back and mentioned how Fox should only get hit with it once or twice per match. I'm not saying it's guaranteed not to happen, I'm just saying to the extent it is usually used isn't THAT beneficial...

Getting fox off the edge can be tricky but yeah I can understand what you are saying, thats why I said its probably even but I feel like its 6-4 fox personally.

I think that's being a little nice towards Fox imo, but I won't be the one arguing against it XD.

Lightning are you going to R3 next weekend? I'd be down to do some friendlies, Ive got very little Fox xp at the moment.

Currently I plan to be there! I've played WarpStatus before and he's got a reeeeeal good ZSS. He got a good lead on me but after a while I managed to bring it back. I didn't win, but I have witnessed WarpStatus lose to another really good Fox main. He calls himself The Legendary Pink or something like that, but I call him RPK. Either way I could see this MU being real close to even.

I'll be the one wearing the orange "I Dair you to Upsmash" t-shirt with the red starfox logo on it. Feel free to friendly me!

There is no way Snakeee/top level ZSS players ACTUALLY AGREE that Fox goes 50:50 with her. Fox is not Wario. He can't play the "won't get grabbed/Dsmashed" card like Wario can.

You could always ask them?

And of course Fox can't always avoid getting hit, but like I said, it won't happen often, and for this reason it shouldn't tip the scale in ZSS's favor too much.

 

[gm jack]

I'm over exaggerating of course, but its very rare to see it happen more than once in a match in top level.

When it's a more or less guaranteed stock, this makes it a serious influence on the match up.

 

[Chuee]

Snake, MK, and Diddy are especially considered 50:50. I would even say Falco, but the general statement there is 55:45 so I won't go too much into that. Not to sound mean, but where are you getting your information from?You already went back and mentioned how Fox should only get hit with it once or twice per match. I'm not saying it's guaranteed not to happen, I'm just saying to the extent it is usually used isn't THAT beneficial... There's no way mk is 50-50 with Fox. Oh wait, 80% and a free kill move isn't beneficial =/
I think that's being a little nice towards Fox imo, but I won't be the one arguing against it XD. <.<

"I Dair you to Upsmash" Smash Directional Influence

10 charcter.

 

[Conviction]

Too bad it's not a garunteed stock.

Chuee what you're saying like PSing all of Foxes Lasers not starting another agruement like that.

 

[DMG]

You can argue how effective Dsmash will be in the matchup. That's fine, I don't care whether it ***** Fox or not. But to argue that he not only almost completely negates that aspect of the matchup, but does so well that he goes even with her? THAT would be silly lol.

 

[Chuee]

Iblis it doesn't matter if it isn't an infinite, it still rackes up an ***load of damage, and can kill.

 

[noradseven]

There is no way Snakeee/top level ZSS players ACTUALLY AGREE that Fox goes 50:50 with her. Fox is not Wario. He can't play the "won't get grabbed/Dsmashed" card like Wario can.

Except like he flat out said so... im not sure how nick/daz feel about it though, but I know snakeee thinks its even or disadvantage for ZSS sooo...

I like how everyone who hasn't played the match is ZSS wins then everyone who has played it thinks its close to even.

Trust me you the circumstances for the d-smash loop are more specific than most people tend to think, and yeah fox will be hit by it under those conditions like in 30% of my matches, and if notice it and don't **** up I got like 50-60% consistency here, then you get to do a **** ton of damage, and on certain stages kill.

Note I tend to hit fox with d-smash about 3-4 times a match too bad most of the time he is airbound or over 40% damage which means doing the loop is worthless and we should go for a dash-attack loop instead.

 

[Lightning93]

10 charcter.

I didn't see you there during the recent MK vs Fox MU. I could go get the thread for you, but I don't think you have time to read all of it.

Some key points:

Fox can escape tornado and punish with Dair consistently.
Fox can punish MK for just as much damage as MK can for Fox.
Fox and MK average the same amount of damage output over time.
Averaged from gimping mechanics, possible kill moves, momentum canceling, and DI, MK and Fox kill each other with same amount of difficulty.
Fox can camp.
MK can space.

Also, Dair to Upsmash was generally considered a true combo back when that t-shirt was made. And seeing as it still consists of 90% of my kills at tournaments I think I'll keep it the way it is.

You can argue how effective Dsmash will be in the matchup. That's fine, I don't care whether it ***** Fox or not. But to argue that he not only almost completely negates that aspect of the matchup, but does so well that he goes even with her? THAT would be silly lol.

It isn't completely negated, I think people are just saying that Fox has other tools to balance the use of ZSS's dsmash in the MU.

I like how everyone who hasn't played the match is ZSS wins then everyone who has played it extensively thinks its close to even.

It's kind of hard to tell a trend from only a handful of players, but stuff like this happens all the time. You just have to remember that tourney experience and theoretical (but practical) knowledge shouldn't go against each other. You have to find some sort of connection.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Ganon will rise to Mid tier.

Spoiler

lolno

 

[Javon89]

Ganon will rise to Mid tier.

Spoiler

lolno

MK will become second.

 

[Chuee]

I didn't see you there during the recent MK vs Fox MU. I could go get the thread for you, but I don't think you have time to read all of it.

Some key points:

Fox can escape tornado and punish with Dair consistently.
Fox can punish MK for just as much damage as MK can for Fox.
Fox and MK average the same amount of damage output over time.
Fox kills MK much earlier than MK can kill Fox.
Gimping wise, MK wins, but to put Fox in that position requires bad DI from Fox.
Fox can camp.

MK has better overall range.
***** Fox offstage.
I don't think Fox would be the one character in the game that goes 50-50 with mk.

 

[Lightning93]

^ I fixed what I wrote to make more sense. Being able to **** Fox offstage averages out with each character's killing potential.

Yes he has better overall range, but the one character most known for a lack of range but great ability to punish is Fox.

You can try to argue, but you'd just be repeating what better players have said tbh...

 

[DMG]

Fox isn't 50:50 with MK or that close to it lol.

Also Fox cannot consistently escape tornado. Escaping tornado is much more complicated than just "SDI/Footstool/other thing that is guaranteed". You have to factor in what MK does/where he hits you/when in the animation he reaches you. Can Fox escape everytime if MK doesn't rise with tornado/keep pressing B? Can he escape if MK only hits him with the very side? What makes Fox/other characters pop out of tornado? Does weight/floatiness factor into it, and if so, what effects do they have? Do you know the definite answer to these? If you escape from Tornado, can Dair break through the sides? Can you footstool the corners of MK's Tornado?

As for the matchup, MK turns it more into his favor with SDI+Tech of Usmash. Call me crazy, but doing this consistently saves MK HARD in this matchup. Grab release to Usmash? Nope, it won't kill if MK SDI's and Tech's it. Not only that, but he can then Dsmash you and you can't SDI and tech that Back lol. If he Fair's your shield incorrectly and you Usmash OOS, he can SDI down and tech and punish. This aspect of the matchup makes it much harder to kill MK, especially since that's not only Fox's choice move to use to kill, but the only one with realistic opportunities to kill with.

 

[Chuee]

Fox won't punish anything of MK's except tornado..........
I just asked Toronto Joe and he said it's 60-40.

 

[humble]

Ganon goes even with MK. You can try to argue, but you'd just be repeating what better players have said tbh...

^lol

This was just made to show lightning how weak his argument was. Anyone can make an audacious claim and then refuse to listen to reason- however it does nothing to prove your point.

 

[Browny]

extending from what DMG said, what if MK simply tornadoes a few pixels to the side? dair cant break it then. If were assuming top level where the fox can consistantly escape the tornado, why are we assuming the MK will allow the tornado to actually be hit from directly above? its not like its beyond reaction time once fox escapes to simply move slightly to the left or right.

 

[Lightning93]

Well, you can tell me this, but the debates already been through with the same arguments...

And sorry, what I meant to say is Fox has more POTENTIAL to escape consistently than most characters. To my understanding some characters have more difficulty escaping MK's tornado than others.

 

[humble]

Well, you can tell me this, but the debates already been through with the same arguments...

And sorry, what I meant to say is Fox has more POTENTIAL to escape consistently than most characters. To my understanding some characters have more difficulty escaping MK's tornado than others.

Well you can tell me Ganondorf is worse than metaknight, but the debates already been through with the same arguements...


Fox falls faster, he actually has a harder time escaping than most characters. Yes, large, heavy, fast falling characters have a harder time escaping than others. This is because they are large, heavy, and fast falling. (facepalm)