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Predictions for Tier List v4 (Includes overview of entire cast)
- Thread starter Pierce7d
- Start date
Shiek/Zelda are good, but NOT A-tier material. They have too many cons going for them to include them in that level of the tierlist.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
@Ripple: You have placed Peach to high. Peach doesn't have all the tools to become anything higher than C
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2006
- Messages
- 9,632
you obviously have never played against a high level peach. Peach definately tools to be a B tier
I actually agree with Peach being higher than C tier (obv B tier). She has an easier time placing than everyone else in C tier, for example, as well as lots of proof from tourney-going mains who rep her and still haven't died down on their results (if she truly was C tier, it wouldn't be so hard getting an edge over her in matches, and it'd be harder to gain an edge with her)... And I say this from personal experience against a high-level Peach (Excel_Zero), as well as mid-level and low-level peaches.
Gangsta_inc
Smash Ace
Through, examination of your groupings. The farthest I can give you is bottom of B. She doesn't really have much, as much as people would like to believe. her air mobility is still lack luster and that shuts her down. and the Majority of your B group is just that, Airs. she may not be getting gimped but those match ups keep her chained down. which isn't a bad thing, but doesn't benefit either.
kismet2
Smash Ace
If you want a recent result I 3-0ed him in losers finals Falco vs. Shiek. Shiek is good but as long as I don't approach or don't blindly rush then the matchup isn't really hard.
Oftentimes, I forget that there is an F Tier. :/
Also, PT for B Tier. It's gonna happen one day.
In the meantime, PT for C Tier. It's way overdue.
Also, PT for B Tier. It's gonna happen one day.
In the meantime, PT for C Tier. It's way overdue.
gm jack
Smash Lord
Crouch > lasers. Needles are fast enough to punish anything you do. Falco definitely will be in control of the match, but Ftilt ***** him pretty hard. It's a similar deal to Fox. Without Ftilt, it's be much easier. But Sheik combines great agility and speed with an easy to hit move which can take you from 30% to 90%.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
lol no.
When a character does worse tournament result wise then last tier list, with no serious improvement to their metagame, they don't climb a whole tier. The move down if they move at all, unless characters above them have taken an even worse plunge. Seeing as both Zelda and Bowser are about the same as last time, with Ike being slightly better then last time...no. In your dreams dude.
And PT in B tier? You need to go back on your meds.
There is nobody in C tier that PT is even remotely better than, let alone B tier.
The_Altrox
Smash Lord
If it were just Squirtle or Charizard, that would be possible. But being forced to play all three throws a wrench at consistant play.
Ripple
ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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don't worry reflex , I picked up PT also and am going to start help rep him
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
It's not good at all. Marth is bad and extremely overrated he needs to drop a whole tier him and pikachu are the most hyped characters in the game TBH.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
Marths fair is incredibly versatile, so I wouldn't actually call it predictable. That, and his other aerial options are really good.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
It's not my fault that people just don't understand what everyone is capable of or how the game is supposed to be played.
PT should've been higher than that in the first place. Zelda doesn't have much of a metagame, Ike doesn't have much of a metagame, and Bowser has a host of issues, mostly because he's a fatass without a lot of particularly safe moves.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Almost I'll have to be blatant, I respect your opinion, but I can't help but notice this comes after your rejection from the boards and you lackluster play of Marth.... This is not "Person vs Person" this is a characters ability to win at optimal play. Pikachu and Marth are NOWHERE near overrated. This is not a flame, as I hope your success with Wario is coming along, but yeah, sorry.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
DMG is a top Wario in a respectable region with top players there if that's not optimal then what is? I'm not sure how much more optimal it can get.
Pikachu got a lot of hype from the CG. Maybe when I see more pikas placing i'll believe that she isn't hype.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Really?
It's predictable that fair will happen, but as people who've faced good marths will tell you, that doesn't say much. There are so many different safe patterns that can be done with fair that the suggestion that it's predictable is pretty laughable. The moves that marth will use MAY be predictable, but that gives you nowhere near the precision needed to effectively counter it.
It's versatility is honestly what makes his air game have so much depth and makes it so unpredictable.
Basically, marth's air game is as predictable as lightning during a thunderstorm, you know what will happen (lighting will strike), but you have no idea where, when, or how, in other words the details that make something being predictable useful.
What if Falco keeps a lookout for the ftilt, and just keeps his distance? Sheik has nothing to completely intercept Falco's options. Needles can't punish silent lasers since Falco can just land into a shield, and he can also land while airdodging to avoid the needles if you try to frametrap him with good timing. If Falco plays it patient (like kismet2 did), the MU becomes way too hard for Sheik to call it "manageable"... And all it took for kismet2 to win was holding back on approaches until Sheik was obviously open and with high %s.
Predictability doesn't make a move bad. There are many factors that are to be seen that might make a move back. Is it easy to avoid? Easy to punish the opponent when they do the move? Does it take too long to start/end? Does it have more than 1 application? Does it work whenever you want it to, and is it not just limited to certain situations? Does it have a nice reach/damage output? Predictability only braces you for the inevitable. MK's tornado is predictable, Snake's ftilt is predictable, DDD/IC's grabs are predictable... Doesn't mean they're bad moves.
I think Pikachu got too huge a hype from their CGs (which I haven't seen applied in many matches, mind you). If they drop, it's because someone else is moving up though, he's too good a character to drop because of a mishype alone. Marth will keep his position (give or take a spot or two), he is in NO way a bad character at all. I expect PT to remain around middle-bottom of C tier (to get to the heights Reflex has reached, you need to REALLY know what you're doing, and have studied the character thoroughly. Too much effort to place decently in tourneys). I have no idea what reason Lucario would have to find himself going up in the tierlist, since his metagame is exactly the same; the only thing that's changed with Lucario is his repping in tourneys, he's exactly the same character he was 6 months ago, whith no metagame-altering discoveries found.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Actually, you went about this in a much better way than I probably would have.
Marth fair AC's, and goes really well with nair, dtilt, uair, and a ton of other ground mixups. The fact that you can find like a ton of different variations to fair methods is far from "predictable".
Browny
Smash Hater
on what frames does it AC
if these forums are to be believed, half of all aerials auto cancel. seems there is a LOT of misunderstandings on the difference between auto-cancelling, 'low landing lag' and the attack simply finishing before they hit the ground >_>
if these forums are to be believed, half of all aerials auto cancel. seems there is a LOT of misunderstandings on the difference between auto-cancelling, 'low landing lag' and the attack simply finishing before they hit the ground >_>
MysteriousSilver
Smash Ace
Hey, Reflex.
How is the game supposed to be played then?
You're obviously doing something horribly right.
How is the game supposed to be played then?
You're obviously doing something horribly right.
Marth's Fair being predictable is a trait that works in his favor a lot of times too.
Say he gets a grab at mid %'s and Fthrows you. You know he's gonna go after you in the air and try to Fair, but you don't know when. Having awareness that Marth can choose what to do after he gets you in that spot can hurt you more than it can help you sometimes. That applies for a lot of things though, like Wario's Dthrow. If you are aware of all of my options and all of your options, you might take too long to pick a choice and get punished. If you are aware of everything, you might overthink in some elaborate mindgame just to get punished anyways.
This is what happens a lot with Marth's Fair. People are aware of everything, that they know when Marth will generally use it, why he wants to use it, etc. While that opens the door theoretically to understand everything, in practice it opens the door for mistakes. Mistakes more likely for you to make than Marth.
Say he gets a grab at mid %'s and Fthrows you. You know he's gonna go after you in the air and try to Fair, but you don't know when. Having awareness that Marth can choose what to do after he gets you in that spot can hurt you more than it can help you sometimes. That applies for a lot of things though, like Wario's Dthrow. If you are aware of all of my options and all of your options, you might take too long to pick a choice and get punished. If you are aware of everything, you might overthink in some elaborate mindgame just to get punished anyways.
This is what happens a lot with Marth's Fair. People are aware of everything, that they know when Marth will generally use it, why he wants to use it, etc. While that opens the door theoretically to understand everything, in practice it opens the door for mistakes. Mistakes more likely for you to make than Marth.
- Joined
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Needles go through lasers; they have transcendent priority. They still punish silent laser use just as well as they punish normal laser use, and normal landing patterns. What were you getting at?
I could visualize Sheik having the ability to at least neutralize Falco's camping game with a combination of ducking, shielding, charging needles, and intelligent boost smash/dash attack usage.
I'm not sure if you're being terribly sarcastic or complimenting my ability, but I'm conceited, so we'll go with the latter.
It's all about movement, which goes hand-in-hand with spacing.
It's no great revelation, but you have to know every single one of your options and every single one of your opponent's, movement-based or not. Don't be afraid to try something like edgeguard Meta Knight with Ivysaur. You'll be surprised at what you find.
I think that most people don't understand how big a deal movement has to do with the game, and how many options some characters really have that make a difference in that. That's why my tier list looks radically different from most.
Also--
Ivysaur Up-Smash is silly.
Let's see... Falco jumps and lasers constantly. You manage to fire a needle at Falco. Falco can do a number of things now, depending on when you threw the needle:
1) If you threw the needle aiming to hit him before he landed, he can downB to reflect it, land with a shield, jump midair then fastfall a silent laser and continue the barrage, or laser you and have the needle knock him out of his afterlag so that he may shoot another instantaneous laser before landing.
2) if you threw the needle aiming to hit him while he lands, he can downB to reflect it, land while airdodging and moving to a direction so that the needle misses, or shoot the laser and have the needle knock him out of his afterlag so that he may shoot another instantaneous laser while landing.
3) If you threw the needle aiming to hit him as soon as he landed, he can downB to reflect it. land with a shield, jump midair then fastfall a silent laser and continue the barrage, shoot a silent laser then shield/downB it, or shoot a 3rd, grounded laser and allow the needle to knock him out of his afterlag so that he may get back to shooting his lasers.
To me, it seems like Falco has the upper hand here, and a buttload of options to boot. Patience will let the Falco player know what optimal option he can do against needles shot at him (transcendent priority or not), and a strong will to hold back his urges to approach recklessly will make it so that Sheik has nothing to punish. Getting close while crouching? Well, Falco can either downB or sideB away, as well as move backwards towards the ledge while lasering, then mix up lasers and sideBs whenever you corner him to ledges, and if he grabs the ledge then he just ledgejumps and lasers, then phantasms behind you if you get too close... Falco will be back to looking for safe ways to cause damage at Sheik before you have a chance to realize how your "hurtbox zoning" did nothing.
And yes, Sheik will eventually break through his camping. But the majority of the time, when Falco regains his ground, it'll be the same hell all over again for Sheik to bypass his defenses.
Browny
Smash Hater
What part of glide beneath the stage to the other end, or glide over the stage way above ivys reach am I not understanding?
Kinzer
Mammy
The part where Sawnik can cross FD in 55 frames and maybe get to the other ledge before MK does.
...That was just awful. I'd really love to bring up Sonic, but then I realize I don't give a d*** what other people say because it's all mostly theorycraft, just like almost every other character.
...That was just awful. I'd really love to bring up Sonic, but then I realize I don't give a d*** what other people say because it's all mostly theorycraft, just like almost every other character.
The part where Meta Knight wants what looks like an easy gimp, only to be outranged by D-Air.
N-Air shenanigans are funny when one plays on the ledge, too.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
The part where MK decides not to do those things.
Browny
Smash Hater
so MK is choosing to put himself in a dangerous position while recovering, susceptible to a powerful spike
I thought we were talking about playing the game properly here?
I thought we were talking about playing the game properly here?
It's not a powerful spike, and only the bulb spikes, which means you'll get the sourspot hit if you space correctly.
That being said, you're entirely right about it being an unintelligent move, but can you guess how many Meta Knights will try to avoid an Ivysaur edgeguard like that?
The main thing is, "experiment, and you'll learn a thing or twelve". I meant that Ivysaur has a surprisingly good edgeguard game, and no one seems to acknowledge it, Ivysaur or opponent.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Are you saying everyone makes the best choice all the time? We're talking about playing the game realistically here. MK going in for the attack also gives him a great risk-reward factor, especially against ivysaur.
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@Kewkky
All Sheik has to do to avoid Falco's camping game is crouch. It's not difficult. You've already neutralized Falco's laser camping, so now it's a matter of being patient and waiting for an opportunity to throw in some needles, if that chance arises. If it doesn't? At worst you're at a neutral state with a fully charged needle storm at hand. Let me explain.
Let's say you're crouching just outside of Falco's dash attack range (At least far enough away for you to be able to punish one purely on reaction), but close enough to punish reflector use with a boost smash/dash attack. (very plausible)
You can begin to charge needles, and then shield when a laser flies near you. Needle charging is quick enough for you to be able to add a needle to the stack between short hopped lasers. Then it's a matter of predicting when Falco will shoot out a laser.
It's a win-win situation so long as you're patient. There really isn't a way for Falco to win at that distance.
Short ranged laser zoning is an entirely different story though. ;/
All Sheik has to do to avoid Falco's camping game is crouch. It's not difficult. You've already neutralized Falco's laser camping, so now it's a matter of being patient and waiting for an opportunity to throw in some needles, if that chance arises. If it doesn't? At worst you're at a neutral state with a fully charged needle storm at hand. Let me explain.
Let's say you're crouching just outside of Falco's dash attack range (At least far enough away for you to be able to punish one purely on reaction), but close enough to punish reflector use with a boost smash/dash attack. (very plausible)
You can begin to charge needles, and then shield when a laser flies near you. Needle charging is quick enough for you to be able to add a needle to the stack between short hopped lasers. Then it's a matter of predicting when Falco will shoot out a laser.
It's a win-win situation so long as you're patient. There really isn't a way for Falco to win at that distance.
Short ranged laser zoning is an entirely different story though. ;/
Exactly what a Falco will do to you if you crouch+shield+charge needles. They'll just wait for you to do a predictable reaction and punish you for it. If you're shielding Falco's lasers, then he can either laser>grab you, or simply land without lasering and buffer a grab to grab your shield. Shiek can do stuff, but Falco is the defensive one here, so he's the one maintaining the edge while Sheik is trying to take it from him. Assuming that you, the Sheik, will have a flawless approach while Falco will fall for whatever you plan on doing is faulty theoretical discussion, and not practical due to the "human" factors coming into play when the match actually happens.
BigDaddy4
Smash Journeyman
are we seriously talking about an ivysaur/mk matchup? does that even matter? no one really uses PT anymore.