Pre-Release Final Checklist

[shanus]

Magus, here is 9-14 which (I think) is 99% ready for release:

http://shanemulliganphotography.blogsite.org:6111/~shane/NearGold/9-14-2009/

GCT & Changelist & Fighter are all up to date. I'm going to be busy all tomorrow morning and early afternoon, but could you perform the following?

-Reinstate Cape's snake tilt changes
-Add shield damage to bowsers dair (2 shield damage per hitbox) & f-smash (a lot on the sweetspot, use your best judgement)


After that, I believe every change is instated and ready to roll (yea bowser flame cancelling what what!)

 

[The Cape]

Some things I just want to make sure we hit:

Bowser:
Crouch HA as well as crawl?
IASA window on hard upB landing instead of speed up overall?
+3 damage to bair. Reasonable for the move and it can assist him with edgeguards as the move will do the damage to match the KB
For the F smash sheild damage Shanus mentioned. My thoughts:
Weak hit does 1/4 of sheild
Tipper hit does 1/2 sheild
Strong hit does 1/2 sheild
D tilt speed changes: Shell had an idea on this.
Bowser weak upB hit to 8 damage from 5

Kirby:
Fire breaths (Charizard and Bowser); Bullet seed; ZSS blaster need to be more similar to the originals as they have been changed now IMO.

- The moves were altered in a pretty big way on each and the Kirby versions should match up.

Snake:
Fair IASA for jump or upB
UpB IASA for AD five frames after cypher grab
- Gonna use either of these? They help his recovery game and his mobility game which could be a good change for the tilts nerf in size

Yoshi:
Neutral B IASA window two frames before Yoshi puts them in his mouth that can cancel into sheild. This allows for a mixup to get them closer, but goes into sheild so it isnt broken and is optional.
- Thoughts?

Squirtle:
Gurukid thinks that there should be +3 frames of cooldown to Squirtle uair as well as the KB nerf and I agree.

MK:
Remove one midair jump?

Diddy:
Wall hit explosion of upB cut in time to about 2/3s of the current amount?

Lucario:
Remove upB autosnap?
- The move ends when it runs out of time, hits a wall or floor, or grabs the ledge. Is it possible to remove the line that ends the move upon ledge grab? If possible then we can possibly fix Diddy, Fox, Falco, etc sideBs.

Ganon:
As per Zeonstar:
Revert U throw to original setting and give it a decent IASA frame like Ike

Overalls:
Tech rolls?
Rolls?
Sidesteps?
Ceiling techs?
Wall techs?
Ledge getups?
up grav shift?

Thoughts on these all?

 

[Shell]

For Boozer d-tilt, just delay the second hit by 4 or so frames and then compensate the endlag so that it catches spot dodges better, which it's so close to doing. Leaving the animation but extending the duration of the second hitbox could also work, although I dunno how it'd look.

 

[shanus]

I told you I already tried to fix the autosnap features of sideB's and upB's and it was a total failure.


Iy's a lot more complex than 1 function and every one of them is a bit different than the next.

 

[Dark Sonic]

So, I didn't see Sonic's instant homing attack in the change list. I think that's a change that a lot of Sonic mains are looking forward to. Homing attack still has a horible tracking system, a fairly small hitbox, and a lot of lag when whiffed (which happens often because of previous flaws <_<). I feel like the cool cancel you made won't get to see much use without a speed up to go with it. (I believe instant homing attack was done by simply removing the charge up section of the move altogether)

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'll post a Sonic pac with a homing attack I've tried messing with doing just that Dark Sonic. I haven't been able to test as I've been sick and my Wii is packed somewhere else, so there are a few things left undone. Mainly, the new Nair doesn't have a matching graphic yet.

I'll have changelist and pac file up in the monday submission thread later today.

 

[JCaesar]

Viet's ROB utilt.

Increase ROB's dsmash BKB so he can't follow it up. Maybe reduce dsmash damage by 2 or 3 also. I dunno any specific numbers for this but it should be trivial to test.

 

[shanus]

I'll post a Sonic pac with a homing attack I've tried messing with doing just that Dark Sonic. I haven't been able to test as I've been sick and my Wii is packed somewhere else, so there are a few things left undone. Mainly, the new Nair doesn't have a matching graphic yet.

I'll have changelist and pac file up in the monday submission thread later today.

Last I knew framespeed changes on the startup don't work. So unless you went through and modified the functions a bunch, good luck. I didnt tackle it as I had bigger fish to fry at the time.

 

[Dark Sonic]

IndigoFenix got it to work for his "Shadow the hedgehog" project. I sent him a PM about it this morning.

 

[shanus]

I bet its just removals of the starting subaction, but I don't have time to toy with it.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't want better aerials for Snake. Something unique that I like about Snake is he is the only cast member who doesn't want to SHFFL stuff. Sure the new F-air won't magically make him a SHFFL God, but I hope you get the point.

Instead I'd like to keep him a grounded character and keep Up-tilt and Up-smash as the glorious anti-airs they are and keep his aerial game as situational. I can talk to the other Snake mains in his topic about a buff or two as compensation (they are gonna freak that we are going through with nerfs fyi. I've just come to accept it and make the best of it )

I have a few ideas if you would like me to post them but I want to make lunch before class.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm gonna give making marth's dtilt less gay another shot tonight. I don't get home from school until 7:30ish (EST) on tuesdays and thursdays, so don't expect anything until at least then. For now, I've got an idea of the values I'm gonna use, but need to test it first.

Also, were marth's physics fixed? I know I never posted the correct physics on the forum. They should be 119974D0... I messed up and typed an E when it should have been a D.

 

[shanus]

marth's physics are correct now.

I'm going to try out the sonic instant HA later today, but the goal is to have every change in *tonight* so that we can compile the appropriate installers for tomorrow.

 

[Revven]

I don't want better aerials for Snake. Something unique that I like about Snake is he is the only cast member who doesn't want to SHFFL stuff. Sure the new F-air won't magically make him a SHFFL God, but I hope you get the point.

Fair change isn't supposed to be used for SHFFLing, it's so Snake can use the BOUNCE he gets from it to gain more height on his recovery and thus, Up B right after...

 

[goodoldganon]

Snake ideas and reasoning:

Move the IASA frames on the jab: Allows for tap resets like Capt. Falcon. F-tilt -> jab -> grab becomes possible (obviously can be DI'd away) This change should provide a mess of ground mixups.

Speed the d-tilt up slightly:

Hits on Frame: 6-8
Duration: 34

Lower it to something like 28ish. This should allow Snake to do something after the D-tilt. Change the angle to something like 45-55. Should prevent D-tilt -> up-tilt with this change but should allow for D-tilt -> Snakedash follow ups. (what is that technique called cause snake dash is dumb)

Speed up on the planting of the D-smash: Outside of fighting Dorf or Jigglypuff it's next to impossible to get enough space to plant a good mine because of the speed ups.

Slight speed up on the down-b to allow for a slightly higher chance to stick targets. Slightly lower damage as compensation. (Keep KB the same)

Speed up the box taunt to allow for Box edgeguarding

Obviously I'm not asking for everything. Pick and choose. I do think the IASA on first hit jab would be great compensation and allow for a variety of mixups between hit tilts, specials, and grab.

@Falco

Snakes recovery is fine if you play it smart. Recover high and always try and DI more upwards. Snake is really heavy and hard to kill off the top. Snakes recovery doesn't need help.

I also don't see this being that much help. F-air is slow and easy to see coming. If you need the jump to recover then people just won't jump out to edgeguard you. Snake doesn't have a problem recovering horizontally. He has a problem recovery vertically due to being spiked, grabbed, etc. and that change does nothing to alleviate it/ Besides, a recovery buff is boring.

 

[Shell]

Snake's jab comes out on 3, and is IASA 16. This is exactly the same as Falcon's. I think you'd need to change something else if you're trying to enhance jab -> grab other than frame data.

I maintain that d-tilt could be an excellent poke with speed adjustments.

As for recovery, I'm sure you're aware that it's not always a matter of just "playing it smart." Many attacks will knock you at a low enough angle that you have no way to recovery high. It's these low-med height, gimp-danger-zones that I believe Cape wanted to strengthen.

The main advantage of IASA on Fair is that it would provide a measure of safety to the opening dip of the Up-B -- the vertical momentum of the Fair would minimize or negate the slow, vulnerable dip, and the hitbox would help ward away foes. This low height, slow start, gimpable portion of his recovery is a huge weakness, and I don't know if you're giving it enough credence.

I may not be a Snake main myself, but I do play against a good Snake quite frequently, and I get a surprising amount of my kills by forcing him to recover low and gimping / spiking him.

Personally, I'd up the IASA on D-tilt and Fair both slightly.

 

[VietGeek]

I gave JCaesar a test ROB Utilt with the following modifications:

[font=1]	U-Tilt:
		-Revised move to get rid of infinite while still maintaining the set-ups of the move
		-Hitbox A: New:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->120 KBG; 0->55 BKB; 90°]; Old:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->20 KBG; 0->40 BKB; 90°->45°]
		-Hitbox B: New:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->120 KBG; 0->55 BKB; 105°->95°]; Old:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->20 KBG; 0->40 BKB; 105°->45°]
		-Hitbox C: New:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->120 KBG; 0->55 BKB; 105°->95°]; Old:[1x Size; 3 Dmg; 100->20 KBG; 0->40 BKB; 105°->45°]
		-Hitbox D: [1x Size; 5 Dmg; 80->120 KBG; 55 BKB; 90°]
		-Hitbox E: New:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->120 KBG; 55 BKB; 90°]; Old:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->20 KBG; 55->40 BKB; 90°]
		-Hitbox F: New:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->120 KBG; 55 BKB; 90°]; Old:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->20 KBG; 55->40 BKB; 90°]
		-Hitbox G: New:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->120 KBG; 55 BKB; 90°]; Old:[1x Size; 6 Dmg; 80->20 KBG; 55->40 BKB; 90°][/font]

And he seemed to like it and said it never locked. He also suggested to make dsmash a true GTFO move that doesn't happen to convenient set-up combos if DI'd wrong or whatevers. How does everyone feel about ROB in general?

Some of these changes looked weird but yeah...I just took literally 3 minutes to get the values altogether and then ran off to school. By dumb luck it seems good though.

Err thoughts first, I didn't really save the .pac after giving it to JCaesar.

 

[VietGeek]

To bump this up to be all flashy and bolded and "sugoi! sugoi! ~<3" imma...double post. o_o

http://www.mediafire.com/?jznozthzytn

latest ROB .pac with test Utilt

 

[JCaesar]

The utilt Viet gave me didn't lock anyone at any %. The growth was high enough that it didn't set up for free nair kills either. Dthrow is still better at that and of course that doesn't work on everyone either.

ROB's dsmash can be followed up at low and mid %s regardless of DI, about the same amount as Viet's utilt actually. Just increase the base so it's a true GTFO move and not a spammable combo starter. I would not be against lowering the damage either. I know a lot of people really hate this move and I don't think it should be anything more than a reset. Keep in mind it IS punishable in its current form, both by shielding and by SDIing out, which isn't that hard.

 

[The Cape]

-2 damage on launch hit with +10 to base?

That should stop all followups and it should KO around the same time due to the uncompensated KBG

 

[JCaesar]

It'd be fine if it didn't KO at all. Pure GTFO move, nothing more.

 

[Shell]

I'd like to see tech rolls, sidesteps, rolls, and possibly U-Grav especially done before we release this simmer set, unless we want to release a 9/16 nightly and then just release 5.0 official in another week or so.

Also, Boozer SH feels a lot better at "1," in my opinion.

 

[Revven]

I'd like to see tech rolls, sidesteps, rolls, and possibly U-Grav especially done before we release this simmer set, unless we want to release a 9/16 nightly and then just release 5.0 official in another week or so.

Also, Boozer SH feels a lot better at "1," in my opinion.

I'd rather not do anything to gameplay like that. This set needs to be out the way it is with the gameplay, plain and simple. They are already getting air dodge tweaks, not to mention, we still don't have access to Squirtle, Charizard's, Ivy's, and DDD's .PACs to edit their spot dodges as well as any OTHER gameplay tweaks that are character specific.

Anything with gameplay is going to take time, which is why we have to get an official out before we do anything gameplay related because that is going to require extensive and hard testing to get down perfectly. The point of releasing this week is so that we have a set out there that will last months without those public people bugging us about a new set every week so that we can work on gameplay.

If we started anything gameplay related now, we wouldn't get it done this week, it'd be two weeks from now, which it has been far too long anyhow. On top of that, we will then think of MORE things to balance on the side or quite possibly want to add something more gameplay related which again, would take more time. Gameplay needs to be discussed, tested, and experimented with before adding it into a set with the current balance.

 

[leafgreen386]

Cape, I don't see how you can suggest that rob's dsmash would kill the same with -2 damage and only +10 base lol

Unless that move does insane damage and I just never realized it, it won't be killing until a few years after forever, or at least not until the wednesday after next neverday. If you're not going to compensate kb, then I think even +20 base (or maybe even more) would be acceptable for making it a keep away move but not a combo starter or kill move.

As far as gameplay goes... the only thing we should even be thinking about doing is preventing autosweetspot when you hit something. That's it. And that's only if it's doable quickly (without any glitches). Everything else would take too much time to balance and fix up, whereas this one thing is just something glitchy with the code and affects everyone as a whole without having to edit specific timings for different characters (as we would have to do with a dodge revamp). But really, right now, we just need to focus on fixing up the characters to be as polished as possible for the official release.

 

[Shell]

I yield my point about the gravities, although if Magus can get trimmed Dodges and/or Rolls soon that'd be a really nice touch.

 

[goodoldganon]

I yield my point about the gravities, although if Magus can get trimmed Dodges and/or Rolls soon that'd be a really nice touch.

Trimming down sidesteps and this would be the best set ever. I always found sidesteps to be more abusable than AD.

 

[Shell]

Bowser
0B16C480

Changes from 9-14 set:

SH at 0.85 (1) from 1.075 (7)
D-grav at 1.00 (4) from 1.025 (5)
F-grav at 1.10 (8) from 1.075 (7)

Klaw hopping is still in, fast SHFFLs.

 

[GHNeko]

Here are my things that I'd like to bring up.

Removing Autojabs?
Also, addition of dashing/walking backwards out of crouch for more options for the entire roster.
Fixing the Crawldashing AT for characters who can Crawl.
Fixing ledge options past 99%.

Yoshi's Dair. Don't you guys think it has too little lag for a move like that?
Removal of Dash Attack > Knee on Falcon

I think there is something else i wanted to bring up but eh.

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?wkjmkyzudml

ROB pac with Viet's utilt and my dsmash (-3 damage, +30 BKB on final hit)

 

[Dark Sonic]

So what are we still waiting on right now? I know Magus and Cape are working on spotdodges, but is there anything else?

 

[GHNeko]

Autooooojabs.

 

[Revven]

@Dark Sonic: As far as I'm concerned, spot dodges are it, we aren't going to touch rolls, spot dodges are the VERY last thing.

 

[goodoldganon]

Autooooojabs.

Why? What is wrong with auto jabs? We'll have to rework Snake's and Pikachu's for sure and I'm sure there are others to. What is so wrong with auto-jabs? Does it bother you that much that I can hold A instead of press it 3 times? It just seems like so much extra work for a negligible (if any) gain.

 

[Revven]

Well, GoG, it'd only be on a character specific basis. The problem with autojabs, you fail to see, is that you can hang out with Snake holding A all day and some characters can't beat that with an aerial or a tilt, they're forced to use a smash attack or grab in some way. It's a problem because if I dash at you, you're going to see me dash and immediately hit A and hold it until either I put up my shield, where all three hits hit my shield pushing me out of range to punish you for it or I'll get hit not noticing your last second pressing A stuff.

That's just what the reasoning for taking away Snake's or Ike's autojab. Someone like Pikachu could keep it, but, Ike and Snake and some other possible characters who repeat the 1st jab (there are some exceptions like Kirby) and have a GOOD jab that would be better off and more rewarded if it had to be timed rather than just held.

Do you see the reasoning? I'm just explaining it, not siding with it or anything. I don't care much for it, but, it certainly wouldn't hurt Snake or Ike in any way, all you'd have to do is actually time it.

 

[JCaesar]

I see what SMK's saying but I hate autojabs just for the control it takes away from the player.

I think a jab like Pikachu's being autojab is fine. It's one like Squirtle's that I'd like to see removed, just so I can have more control when I'm doing it, because I rarely ever want to do his 3rd jab, but I press A twice and all 3 jabs come out, wtf? It's just a pain in the ***. It felt soooo much better and more intuitive when we temporarily took the autojabs earlier this year.

 

[Revven]

I see what SMK's saying but I hate autojabs just for the control it takes away from the player.

I think a jab like Pikachu's being autojab is fine. It's one like Squirtle's that I'd like to see removed, just so I can have more control when I'm doing it, because I rarely ever want to do his 3rd jab, but I press A twice and all 3 jabs come out, wtf? It's just a pain in the ***. It felt soooo much better and more intuitive when we temporarily took the autojabs earlier this year.

Ah yeah, there is that problem too. I've had that trouble before maybe once or twice as Wolf, Wario, or DK (not so much Wario, mostly Wolf and DK). DK because I try to use jab 1 to pull in and some times, I may hold A for too long. However, I don't think I should be the one at fault for that because usually when I do the jab 1 to pull in, I want to grab so I do R + A and obviously, the R input some times is not read so it ****s up the whole set up.

With Wolf, I use it for stopping you in your tracks and then either doing a tilt or grabbing (usually Dtilt). Some times I get the second hit in, which isn't a bad thing, it stuns pretty well too but then I may get the third hit which is annoying...

But, like I said, I don't really care if they stay in or not. It certainly isn't changing now.