PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

A recent discussion on Twitter got me thinking about punish game. How hard you punish seems very heavily influenced by how you start your combo. If your opponent isn't very good at the matchup or is just bad in general, it's pretty straightforward for Falco to get an opening and start a combo from a grounded dair or waveshine. Perhaps a shine read near a plat so that you can waveland is a tier below, but also still good. As I reflect upon my games vs. the good players that I got to play last weekend at Smash Con, I get the sense that they are better at avoiding these types of punishes. It isn't how I initially would have envisioned it though. It's not just that better players lose neutral less often, but the entire way they play neutral often serves to limit or mitigate the punishes they get hit by. The resulting experience on my end was "damn, I keep beating this guy in neutral, but he's only losing in ways that give me minimal combo opportunities."

Does anyone have any thoughts on this aspect of the game? Is it better to focus on expanding the different ways you can start hard punishes? You could work on converting grabs/stray hits into harder punishes, or alternatively, you could focus on hitting grounded dairs/shines by approaching from different angles, with different timings, or different setups from laser pressure. I assume both aspects are important, but my gut tells me the grabs/stray hits route is unreliable just due to the nature of those options. It feels like no matter how good I get at getting hits off of throws, it will never be an efficient way of winning games compared to finding those key dairs/shines that yield huge punishes much more consistently. Perhaps you only need to be good enough with those options to make them play around them, which opens them up to more dair/shine opportunities. I can't say I've ever seen a specific example or had anyone describe a situation in which this dynamic was very clear, unfortunately.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been saying for a while that the way you get the hit matters. Not just the hit type but also how you win neutral. So even if you get a throw out of neutral that can't often followup, if your opponent can't react in time then they might not get the proper DI, leading to a punish. So to your question, yes you want to win neutral not only with stuff that beats their attacks or movement or CC/ASDI down, etc and starts combos well, but you also want to win it in such a way where the opponent won't expect to get hit whenever possible. This is a big way that punish and neutral are closely linked in my opinion.

I have always felt grabs were important to maximize in effectiveness to give way to easier hits later, and even if you can't get a followup on grab if you can get a great position out of it then that can be almost as good for you in the moment and in the future when the opponent has to fear the grab anyway. For most Falcos you can probably skew more toward pressure with shines instead of grabs and it's not a big deal. But like you said, if I can do well with grabs then that opens up more Dair/Shine/Nair opportunities and in doing so makes your opponent less sure of how to handle your approach, which means they will struggle more dealing with the initial hit/launcher, leading back to my first point about how the hit is made.

There are also certain positions you just don't want to start combos in so you try to just play more for position or small damage there, or let things stall out so you can get a better position later. Not taking a guaranteed laser Ftilt which will put the opponent directly onto the edge with no punish and instead playing a grab vs JC shine vs spaced aerial mixup would be one quick example of this sort of thing I think Falco encounters often.

 

[Oskurito]

Im kind of lost at the peach match up. I usually have to play overly defensive to win which I don't like too much. Anyway, there's mainly two things that I feel I'm very weak against.

First is when peach floats in the air to avoid lasers, then my only reply is too either shoot her (which may only be possible on FD depending on height), or space back a little and shoot so that if she comes down with an aerial she gets hit with a laser. I also try to space properly so that no instant counter nair can catch me if she decides to do so after taking the laser.

The second situation is when she tries to come down with fair I block and then she instantly jabs after it. My only reply, sadly, is to just roll. I've found out while playing that my opponent didn't know what to do if I just take the jabs by jumping on purpose after the 1st one (or if I accidentally misstime the roll, lol) and then double jab or jab instantly. He would usually not jab and either whiff something like nair and then try to dsmash or just pop up his shield which would often lead to me getting a good punish.

I noticed while watching some old ppmd vs armada sets (specifically the pound5 set) that ppmd will often space back by dash dancing, shoot a laser (similarly to what I did) or full jump high to avoid this. He would also dash in while armada is in the air, then immediately wavedash back making armada whiff his fair. I also noticed that using bair and up tilts seem the way to go for trying to hit peach after fair, sometimes up tilt or even up smash may catch her before the hitbox comes out depending on her timing.

Please enlight me on this one ppmd.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You go high to shoot Peach when she's in the air. You FH/DJ/go to platform and laser on it to shoot her down and then follow her with lasers to keep her grounded. Alternatively, you can bait her into coming in and sometimes Utilt/Bair'ing her or lasering her landing, which will be something you'll probably have to do more on FD. If she stops aerial'ing when you get closer you can run in FH Nair her but I wouldn't recommend this often.

If Peach Fairs your shield it's a bad position. Shield (S)DI away helps, as does rolling vs taking the jabs like you did(though jabbing Peach afterward is usually pretty risky because of hold down Dsmash). The main thing you don't want is to get grabbed, Dsmashed(especially lower %) and dash attacked. So if you get jabbed it's not a big deal, and her Dsmash is too slow/pushes you too far away after Fair to worry about. So you're mostly worried about getting read on your roll and getting dash attacked or grabbed out of Fair on shield. There's not really any amazing answers since it is a losing position but mixing roll vs take jabs like you have, along with shield DI is pretty good.

 

[SuperShus]

so i have this problem with jiggs,

i get a lot of stray hits with bairs and nairs in neutral, and i have some success with late bair shine into mixups on her sheild, but if i get uthrown and miss the di even once out of 6 uthrows its my whole stock, or if i get thrown off i get baird to death basically every time because i dont understand how jiggs/falco edgeguarding works and i dont know what i should do when i react to the way jiggs moves after she throws me off

is there a falco that plays the jiggs set just right? I know pp and hbox have had win streaks on eachother so im not sure which sets are the best to watch, but im not very high level atm so even a mediocre gameplan vs jiggs is better than what i'm playing with at the moment

 

[AGTallon]

I know that Hbox net played DaShizWiz a while back and said that he's given him the most trouble in recent years since PP hasn't been able to compete as much. I personally don't have a whole lot of experience in the matchup and other players in the forum could probably give you better comprehensive advice, but here's the video if you want to analyze what Shiz is doing.
https://youtu.be/yfaa4FsbHbc

I also recommend watching Pound V losers finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL3jFHZm30o

 

[Dr Peepee]

Watch me vs Hbox at Tipped Off 9 I think it was. It's not perfect but it's better than most sets out there right now.

 

[Bones0]

so i have this problem with jiggs,

i get a lot of stray hits with bairs and nairs in neutral, and i have some success with late bair shine into mixups on her sheild, but if i get uthrown and miss the di even once out of 6 uthrows its my whole stock, or if i get thrown off i get baird to death basically every time because i dont understand how jiggs/falco edgeguarding works and i dont know what i should do when i react to the way jiggs moves after she throws me off

is there a falco that plays the jiggs set just right? I know pp and hbox have had win streaks on eachother so im not sure which sets are the best to watch, but im not very high level atm so even a mediocre gameplan vs jiggs is better than what i'm playing with at the moment

Try substituting dair in for some of those stray hits you mentioned. Dair has less range than bair and nair, but it leads to much better followups. Puff is one of the easiest characters for Falco to tech chase because her GUA doesn't have invul before the first hitbox. This means you can almost always drift through her current position and one of her rolls to cover 2/3 MT options. If she techs, her TRs are short and you should be able to cover at least TIP and TR towards you on reaction. TR away feels possible if you're positioned properly, but it frequently gets cut short by the edge of a platform or stage anyway. It's also helpful to lead into KO moves like dtilt and fsmash.

You should definitely look at ways to mitigate Puff's punish game on you, but ultimately that's not where you will win the game. You really can't be getting grabbed 6 times in neutral and expect to win vs. Puff because her bnb combos are so strong on Falco. The two main reasons I see Puffs getting grabs on Falcos is because of bad pressure or she is WDing back to avoid your SHFFL. Both of these are avoidable most of the time, so focus on staying safe and racking up enough neutral wins to KO her.

Just to leave you with a few recovery tips:
- DI her throws as high and far in as possible. DIing low and/or away makes it impossible to do anything, but the higher up you can stay, the more options you will have because you essentially have more time before you need to make a decision. You will always have the option to fall down after being thrown off if you want to Phantasm to the ledge, but you won't always have the option to go high. Make them be concerned about the highest DJ height recovery possible.
- Shine stall to increase your options even more. You can't get too predictable with it because as soon as they see you shine they can expect you to DJ, but it's a good default that allows you to scope out their movement and decide where/how high to DJ, as well as whether you want to position yourself for a Phantasm or up-B.
- Sometimes attacking is necessary. DJ dair is really risky, but if you can react to the Puff coming out to hit you, sometimes it's the best call. If you can't afford to lose a stock and/or she's high %, you can shine turnaround bair her away from you. Bair ends much sooner so recovering after hitting her away will be more viable.
- Avoid over reliance on either of your recovery options. Most Puffs punish spacie mains for consistently using either up-B or side-B over and over. Even if you're mixing up every other option, if the Puff is able to predict which attack you'll use, edgeguarding you becomes very basic.

 

[FE_Hector]

I want to preface this post by saying that I still definitely have a lot to learn about a lot of matchups and that this isn't my primary problem, just one that tends to annoy me.

So, I know for a fact from other games that I'm capable of adapting to a lot of situations. I've had games in Pokken where I notice after two or three iterations of a specific situation that my opponent is always choosing the same situation there, so I experiment for a moment and find my answer. Similarly, I figure out how to dismantle a deck in Clash Royale just during the 5-10 second break between initial pushes or sometimes mid-defense. The thing is, it doesn't work like that for me in Melee.

If/When I adapt in Melee, it tends to be last stock or just through subconsciously "feeling" out their play if they're one or two-dimensional enough. The difference in if I'm doing it well on a certain day can be as obvious as not lasering in a specific way against a shielding Fox because I know they're going to FH nair OoS once they know I'm coming in and just whiff punishing that with a grab instead. Most days, the nair hits me.

What I expect the problem to be is the almost stupidly fast pace at which Melee takes place. There's so much information to process and so many factors to take into account that it sometimes makes adapting really difficult. By the same token, I still struggle to trust a simple read on somebody going to the ledge and never visibly adapt in that regard. It's just generally annoying to me.

Not specifically at PPMD as much as anybody that can regularly adapt, how did you get yourself to that point? I think it might be partially a matter of discipline for me, so I also want to ask how you helped yourself build that up as a bit of a tangential question. I really wanna get better.

 

[Dr Peepee]

One way is to really learn positions. When you know options and likely opponent options you increase your reaction time and adaptation time. Another way is to have simple gameplay options and setups that force your opponent to choose a few actions you can react to. Spaced Bair on shield is most likely going to have them roll or jump or wd back oos and you can adapt based on watching how that goes for an easy example. Laser in place then dash forward laser in neutral gives lots of opportunities during each action to observe. It's all about slowing your gameplay down to create simple actions people can respond to and then adding speed back in.

 

[FE_Hector]

One way is to really learn positions. When you know options and likely opponent options you increase your reaction time and adaptation time. Another way is to have simple gameplay options and setups that force your opponent to choose a few actions you can react to. Spaced Bair on shield is most likely going to have them roll or jump or wd back oos and you can adapt based on watching how that goes for an easy example. Laser in place then dash forward laser in neutral gives lots of opportunities during each action to observe. It's all about slowing your gameplay down to create simple actions people can respond to and then adding speed back in.

I've got a fest tonight, so I'll definitely mess around with that a little bit and see if it helps me and/or if I have any questions about itlater on. Thanks in advance, though.

 

[Fabio the Great]

PP, I got a question in regards to the Fox MU. I was recently watching a VOD of mine and noticed the Fox I was playing against used up-tilts on my shield a lot, like, I would be shielding with my back to him, and his back is to me, and he will up-tilt 2 or 3 times. I kept trying to punish him OoS with Bair, but it would keep trading with the up-tilts. I find that this doesn't always happen when I play foxes but I was wondering if there was a better answer than bair or if Bair should be able to come out fast enough to straight up win and I was just being a few frames slow after leaving jumpsquat. I asked the same question in sleepy's stream and I was suggested that shield DI in and shine OoS was a good answer, but when I tried to lab it out in 20xx, the up-tilts send me WAY to far away from the Fox for it to be possible, even when I held my shield towards them. maybe i'm just shield DI'ing incorrectly?

Any insight would be great

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you're right next to them MAYBE shield SDI could work but I think Utilt sends too far away as well. It's much better to laser OOS or wd back oos laser to regain control of the situation imo.

 

[Lucid41]

What are a few ways to split up the ics in the matchup, shine is tasty but i dont know anything other than that really.

Anything would be nice

 

[Dr Peepee]

At low percent you pretty much only have Fsmash, maybe Dtilt if they don't hold down to split them up. At middle percent and up you can Dair, Utilt, Nair, Bair, Ftilt slightly higher percents I guess. Now at low percents hitting them at all will still desync them some so you have to take advantage of that.

 

[Yort]

@Dr_Peepee

Can you explain why you laser jab so much in neutral vs falcon esp vs shield?

I assume because you want to constantly poke at him, keep him on the ground, bait rolls, bait oos movement, etc.

I also like to imagine you are conditoning them to some degree, and if they start shield grabbing laser jab you mix it up and hit them for this. I saw you get grabbed vs s2j in 2012 nw set and then you did laser grab next time you did an approaching laser on his landing / shield.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I mostly did laser jab because grab didn't get much of a punish and many Falcons jumped OOS when you got close to them in the past. Some of that stuff you said too. I don't think I would laser jab as much now but would still use it some since many players jump after jab and it's pretty tough to grab the jab itself unless they know it's coming.

 

[Yort]

I mostly did laser jab because grab didn't get much of a punish and many Falcons jumped OOS when you got close to them in the past. Some of that stuff you said too. I don't think I would laser jab as much now but would still use it some since many players jump after jab and it's pretty tough to grab the jab itself unless they know it's coming.

I notice you often doing crossover nairs into uptilt when you land directly behind their shield, is this following the same logic as the jab beating jump oos?

Also, I would like some help in understanding the mix up of doing a far cross over behind someones shield (where you nair directly next to their shield and drift all the way etc.) I have seen you do this often and know that you sometimes mix up between turn around laser, dash sh nair forward, I noticed s2j once doing bair oos when you did hard crossover nair into dash back nair, and he beat you for this, while turn around laser in place would have beaten his bair etc. I'm mainly wondering why you set up this mix up when it often results in you somewhat cornering yourself and most of the times you get so far into someones shield and you do this you also have the ability to time a hard nair into conventional shield pressure.

Lastly, can you explain the difference between pseudo comboing and juggling from your perspective? I view the two terms as the same and do not understand the distinctions you have for them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Crossup Nair Utilt is an old thing I used to do. The main reason I did this was because if Nair hit I could get a big combo(could be a kill if I hit them when they were cornered which is how I cornered myself with it if it failed), and most people reacted to me crossing them up by jumping so Utilt could also get a big combo. It stopped working eventually so I stopped doing it unless it wouldn't corner me/could get me out of the corner(Mango does crossup Dair to get himself out of the corner a lot still iirc).

A lot of my tech revolves around missing fast falls and just playing to outplay them coming out of shield instead of doing conventional pressure(conventional nair shine pressure is kinda risky anyway without double shine imo but not the point). I've known about the problem for years but didn't get a chance to fix it before health nonsense. So if I can Nair far through someone I'd carry them with me on hit and I'd be safe on shield, as opposed to doing risky shield pressure I'd mess up and not understand as much anyway. Now, despite not having that FF down still because practice is much harder for me currently, I prefer to condition people to sit in shield a super long time and do late Nair shine grab or retreating Nair as a mixup on their shield. I mix this with dash back dash in Nair to catch jumps OOS that can also usually convert to pressure(Mango does this a lot). It works better on more cornered opponents since they can't easily WD back OOS here. If I need to I can alter laser spacing and laser grab or space Dair/Nair/Bair and force them to roll or move back or attack OOS like Marth would using my range and mobility over a shielding opponent. This all allows me to bypass the main Nair issue, but obviously I didn't do most/all of this in older videos so I need to get that out there, as well as do my Nairs correctly to provide a better example in the future.

There's overlap between pseudo combos and juggling but I'll give clear definitions/examples of what is definitely each to distinguish them. Pseudo combos are ones where you can't get true followups but your next followups range from virtually guaranteed to an advantaged situation. For example, shining an opponent character offstage, usually around mid percent and they DI offstage, you can fall on them with dash FH Dair. They can't really escape this as it doesn't combo, but it's basically guaranteed as a followup in certain situations(sometimes you take their jump which is nice too). Less guaranteed pseudo combos would be things like Uthrowing a Marth who SDIs the lasers up. While you can't really get a big punish off of this normally, if you just wait instead of going for an immediate hit it's pretty easy to land Bairs on Marth when he's in that position(even easier he's so high up it gives you more time to position for Bair). Marth can outplay you, but it's pretty difficult and sometimes impossible. Juggling is basically what happens after you knock someone into the air but can't combo. You try to either start a new combo or repeatedly hit the other person until they get knocked offstage, upwards and die, or land on stage in some punishable way. The main way I think Falco juggles is using his FH/DJ Bair because it sticks upward and at an angle/range pretty much no character can challenge directly and it damages/pushes well. I usually position myself between their character and the center of the level and shift myself with their drift, and also use platforms/SHs to influence how they drift so I'm not just reacting to them but also influencing them. Juggling occurs after things like shining Puff and she DIs away at mid percents, and can lead to or transition to edgeguard scenarios without you hitting them if done correctly.

 

[Lucid41]

really quick is there any set someone recommends where falco plays the ics Mu well? im just trying to get this down

 

[Bones0]

really quick is there any set someone recommends where falco plays the ics Mu well? im just trying to get this down

I think Squid's sets vs. Army are pretty good to analyze. I'm not sure if he's the best at the mu, but he certainly seems to have a reasonably structured gameplan and follows certain rules that are easy to add to your own game.

 

[Ultrasatanicus]

really quick is there any set someone recommends where falco plays the ics Mu well? im just trying to get this down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8v_SZFcgjA I'm honestly really proud of how I played in this set. I also beat Nintendude in a best of 5 MM (4 stock included) at SSC. One of my favorite match ups! My sets vs IC's from Michigan tournaments aren't good examples tho cause I just disrespect them and do bad stuff lol

Mango vs Nintendude from Evo was also a great example of simple effective falco vs IC's

 

[Tanwad]

Yesterday I went Falco game 1 vs a local marth. I consider him a level or so below me, but I figured I'd try my falco since I want to fully transition to him. I took the first few stocks with some safe pokes and good lasers and eventually had a lead of about a stock. Then i couldn't take his third stock and he ended up living to like 140% and getting me to my third stock. I kept fishing for kill setups and I threw the rest of the game because I started sitting on platforms and got ****ed up. Any advice for slowing marth down and regaining control of center? I figure lasers and safe spacing, but I kept losing to his rising fair at certain spacing. Should I dash dance and whiff punish rising fair, or does falco have a good answer to it?

 

[Bones0]

Yesterday I went Falco game 1 vs a local marth. I consider him a level or so below me, but I figured I'd try my falco since I want to fully transition to him. I took the first few stocks with some safe pokes and good lasers and eventually had a lead of about a stock. Then i couldn't take his third stock and he ended up living to like 140% and getting me to my third stock. I kept fishing for kill setups and I threw the rest of the game because I started sitting on platforms and got ****ed up. Any advice for slowing marth down and regaining control of center? I figure lasers and safe spacing, but I kept losing to his rising fair at certain spacing. Should I dash dance and whiff punish rising fair, or does falco have a good answer to it?

You should definitely be DDing and whiff punishing rising fair. If they do it moving forwards or in place you can punish, but if they retreat you can't, so be careful about that. If they do retreat with it, just laser them and take space. Lasers allow you to control the pace of the match so that Marth can only attack at certain times, which limits the ways he can abuse his range. If you don't have enough room to set up lasers, I think SHFFLing a nair/dair and drifting back with it is a reasonably good tool to make them respect your space while also keeping it difficult for him to whiff punish with DD grab.

 

[Tanwad]

I'm also thinking about good ways to shield pressure marth with aerials. I have already seen late nair + shine + early fadeaway nair and that seems to work pretty well. What about like late nair + shine + turnaround + early fadeaway back air? And up tilting afterwards. I feel like that'd stuff marth more effectively if he tries to challenge the back air or falco immediately afterwards. I suppose it depends on the marth, but I think most marths would either respect falco's control of stage there, or try to swing oos.

 

[Bones0]

I'm also thinking about good ways to shield pressure marth with aerials. I have already seen late nair + shine + early fadeaway nair and that seems to work pretty well. What about like late nair + shine + turnaround + early fadeaway back air? And up tilting afterwards. I feel like that'd stuff marth more effectively if he tries to challenge the back air or falco immediately afterwards. I suppose it depends on the marth, but I think most marths would either respect falco's control of stage there, or try to swing oos.

I don't think shine fadeaway aerials are very good vs. Marth (despite relying on them quite a lot for the time being). He can usually fair them out of shield, and unless your execution is really tight and your shine is unstaled, he can just shield grab after the shine. You're better off shinegrabbing since his spotdodge is mediocre, or you can waveshine through, but I haven't tested that to see how easy it is in practice. I also think simply SHing forwards so that you're on top of him and past his grab range might be useful. I still have to test that more too since I know it would get blown up by fair/nair OoS and maybe WD OoS fsmash.

Just based on your ideas, it sounds like you are vastly underestimating how much danger Falco is in when he's fighting around inside Marth's grab range. It's so much better to be on the back of his shield or just getting the shine grab than risking losing a shield pressure RPS to his OoS options. You don't necessarily get a whole lot off of shield pressure hitting him since he can often DI away, and the risk of getting grabbed, faired in a way that can lead into grab, or WD tippered is super high for Falco.

 

[MewtwoForce]

I just have a really general beginner problem i'm having trouble answering right now. What are my goals that I need to be pursuing to learn in order to be solid with my character? This applies to falco too so I figured i'd ask here. As it's said you're only as strong as your biggest weakness. So I can't help but have this feeling that there's something important i'm missing in my training goals that keeps me from playing solid.

Right now i've not actively studied anything so i'm not sure where to begin and i'd like a better idea of what level of study is necessary of me to succeed.

This is especially important because I do also want to get a mewtwo leveled up for fun and with his flaws I really need a good idea of what pursuing solid play is so the mewtwo can do something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just break the game into sections. Different neutral positions, combos, juggles, edgeguards, tech chases, recovery, DI, and so on. Then work on each of those things individually with practice and study. Eventually you get to try it out against people and verify how it does or doesn't work. Then you go back to the drawing board. Just repeat this a lot.

 

[Tanwad]

I don't think shine fadeaway aerials are very good vs. Marth (despite relying on them quite a lot for the time being). He can usually fair them out of shield, and unless your execution is really tight and your shine is unstaled, he can just shield grab after the shine. You're better off shinegrabbing since his spotdodge is mediocre, or you can waveshine through, but I haven't tested that to see how easy it is in practice. I also think simply SHing forwards so that you're on top of him and past his grab range might be useful. I still have to test that more too since I know it would get blown up by fair/nair OoS and maybe WD OoS fsmash.

Just based on your ideas, it sounds like you are vastly underestimating how much danger Falco is in when he's fighting around inside Marth's grab range. It's so much better to be on the back of his shield or just getting the shine grab than risking losing a shield pressure RPS to his OoS options. You don't necessarily get a whole lot off of shield pressure hitting him since he can often DI away, and the risk of getting grabbed, faired in a way that can lead into grab, or WD tippered is super high for Falco.

I practiced a lot vs organic today (my boy beat wenbo last night i'm so proud(': ) and I found that shinegrab was much better than my ideas lmao and just learning the mixups around falco's grab. Lasering just outside rising fair range was super threatening in conjunction with stuffing approaches with bair. I wonder what laser + f tilt + WD back - laser dash dance would yield in terms of people reacting from their shield.

 

[Yort]

@Dr_PeePee

Why is shine short hop laser pressure on shield so good vs marth and falcon?
I understand that it follows rolls and wavedashes well but i'm not certain about the risks involved and how they play into the pros.

When should this be used against fox if ever? I remember you using it well vs armada but I imagine it's not very good vs fox anymore, or atleast way too high risk.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falcon and Marth don't really try to do much OOS vs Falco besides roll or hold shield, so it catches roll or extends pressure and makes them consider using OOS moves later which is great for you.

Fox follows similar reasoning but only with conditioning. If you make Fox respect double shine/shine retreating aerial then you can go back to pressure extensions off of shine that could make Fox want to act OOS and get a punish(you could also just shine grab at this point, but it's a tradeoff since getting follows on grab is definitely not guaranteed against Fox in most situations).

 

[Yort]

Crossup Nair Utilt is an old thing I used to do. The main reason I did this was because if Nair hit I could get a big combo(could be a kill if I hit them when they were cornered which is how I cornered myself with it if it failed), and most people reacted to me crossing them up by jumping so Utilt could also get a big combo. It stopped working eventually so I stopped doing it unless it wouldn't corner me/could get me out of the corner(Mango does crossup Dair to get himself out of the corner a lot still iirc).

A lot of my tech revolves around missing fast falls and just playing to outplay them coming out of shield instead of doing conventional pressure(conventional nair shine pressure is kinda risky anyway without double shine imo but not the point). I've known about the problem for years but didn't get a chance to fix it before health nonsense. So if I can Nair far through someone I'd carry them with me on hit and I'd be safe on shield, as opposed to doing risky shield pressure I'd mess up and not understand as much anyway. Now, despite not having that FF down still because practice is much harder for me currently, I prefer to condition people to sit in shield a super long time and do late Nair shine grab or retreating Nair as a mixup on their shield. I mix this with dash back dash in Nair to catch jumps OOS that can also usually convert to pressure(Mango does this a lot). It works better on more cornered opponents since they can't easily WD back OOS here. If I need to I can alter laser spacing and laser grab or space Dair/Nair/Bair and force them to roll or move back or attack OOS like Marth would using my range and mobility over a shielding opponent. This all allows me to bypass the main Nair issue, but obviously I didn't do most/all of this in older videos so I need to get that out there, as well as do my Nairs correctly to provide a better example in the future.

There's overlap between pseudo combos and juggling but I'll give clear definitions/examples of what is definitely each to distinguish them. Pseudo combos are ones where you can't get true followups but your next followups range from virtually guaranteed to an advantaged situation. For example, shining an opponent character offstage, usually around mid percent and they DI offstage, you can fall on them with dash FH Dair. They can't really escape this as it doesn't combo, but it's basically guaranteed as a followup in certain situations(sometimes you take their jump which is nice too). Less guaranteed pseudo combos would be things like Uthrowing a Marth who SDIs the lasers up. While you can't really get a big punish off of this normally, if you just wait instead of going for an immediate hit it's pretty easy to land Bairs on Marth when he's in that position(even easier he's so high up it gives you more time to position for Bair). Marth can outplay you, but it's pretty difficult and sometimes impossible. Juggling is basically what happens after you knock someone into the air but can't combo. You try to either start a new combo or repeatedly hit the other person until they get knocked offstage, upwards and die, or land on stage in some punishable way. The main way I think Falco juggles is using his FH/DJ Bair because it sticks upward and at an angle/range pretty much no character can challenge directly and it damages/pushes well. I usually position myself between their character and the center of the level and shift myself with their drift, and also use platforms/SHs to influence how they drift so I'm not just reacting to them but also influencing them. Juggling occurs after things like shining Puff and she DIs away at mid percents, and can lead to or transition to edgeguard scenarios without you hitting them if done correctly.

Sometimes I feel like when I use full hop bair in a juggle scenario I am then stuck high in the air and unable to continue juggling reliably as I have to land and and give them time to land, rather than waiting on the ground and setting up maybe higher reward follow ups? Does this concern make sense to you? A lot of times I would rather shirk the guarenteed FH bair and wait for a potential sh nair / bair out of the air into larger reward etc.

I apply this logic to neutral often as well, I don't like fh bairs to get 13% against let's say a fox at lower percent on the right side of battlefield plat. If I hit the fh bair as he's jumping down he'll take 13% and the bair will serve purpose as a poke, then I will be left on top platform giving fox time to fall through and land and forcing me to reposition in a way I like as well. For this purpose I generally avoid taking guarenteed / good FH bairs unless it is at a percent where it pushes them in a good way up or sets them up for a combo di trap or edgeguard. Any thoughts on this?

My perception of using full hop bair when they are low percent and it doesn't set up for anything is that it's a poke that doesn't net you any frame advantage.

Also, what do you think of grabbing falcon constantly, laser grabs etc, in neutral although the followups and juggling is possibly poor compared to other mus? I feel like because he falls fast and avoids followups you gain less frame advantage and potential juggle situations by upthrowing him, although this is the case i'm sure you have an argument as to why grabbing falcon is good, considering your laser grab usage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It depends to me. If I rise into my opponent with Bair I can falling Bair them again if I time it right but it can depend on matchup etc. Not sure how you're connecting yours or in what matchups you're talking about. Honestly the way I hit mine I either get a second one in the air or I land first then Utilt or Bair them again or it's an edgeguard situation. If percent is insanely low I guess you can always FH/DJ Fair into them and get mad damage + position guaranteed at the expense of maybe losing any followup afterward(that can also depend on a good bit).

Also for neutral I still like FH Bair. Pushes opponents past hold down percents, pushes them back, pretty safe to use, unstales other moves like shine for shield pressure, good at challenging the vertical play a lot of characters use against lasers....it's hard to argue against imo. Sometimes you can get positions you can convert out of if you play them enough(the opponent will be thinking differently now that they got straight up caught, making them more likely to shield or go at you or stand still less, etc). If your perception is it doesn't give frame advantage then I'd need to see an example of this as well.

Yeah grabbing Falcon is pretty easy but with lousy reward. I think an okay amount of times you can Uthrow him and get a followup on his DJ but if you're not sure of he can DI to a safe spot then I often Fthrow/Bthrow for position I think(especially at mid or high percent this is safe and can give decent reward for positioning at least).
Oh, and the more you grab and convert well off of it, the less Falcon will want to shield, which only helps with hitting your aerials and shine more.

 

[Ukulele]

So, what are your alls thoughts on Mang0 going Falco at this tournament against Hungrybox? Did you watch the WF/GF?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I thought he got better at it, but he still does too many awful Dairs on shield(Hbox only occasionally Usmashed or grabbed when he had plenty of opportunities to do so, despite Mango's good mixup of them), doesn't edgeguard or juggle well, lets Hbox get over his head a decent amount(where Puff can switch you up easily and your Bair doesn't really work anymore). So yeah he did better but he had a lot of stuff he could do more of that didn't give me confidence in his game against Puff currently.

 

[Swarles]

The concept of characters and their role in improvement that has been troubling me lately and I was wondering what your take on my issue is. Many say that a player starting out should play the character that they think is the most fun, as enjoyment out of the game will lead into motivation in getting better. However technical characters like fox, falco, marth, etc. have so many options and such a high technical demand that the core fundamentals of the game are not focused on. A lower level player cannot master Falco because his lasers by themselves require a deep understanding of spacing as well as tactics on top on basic movements (stand, dash, wavedash) , would removing the barriers of abundant options and technical ability allow a lower level player to understand those basic movements deeper? In this case would it not make sense to play characters who abuse these base fundamentals, learn these tactics, and then move on to your Falco or Fox? An analogy that I've heard and believe works well in this situation is in Pokemon everyone knows that Rayquaza is amazing, but you cannot fight with Rayquaza until you've beaten all of the gym battles. Fox is good if you can control of his options, but if you can't and are missing core fundamentals then he refuses to listen just as Rayquaza does if you have not gained the experience from beating all of the gym battles.

Speaking of these fundamental based characters, or lower tier characters, more often than not they only have one viable strategy available to them. For example Zelda, for the most part, revolves around landing a bair to send them off stage, every single situation Zelda is put in has the end goal of setting up for the bair to kill her opponent. Falco has more strategies available to him such as: shield pressure, laser control, abusing large and high priority hitboxes. The main point being that Zelda mains only have to worry about bair and so they can master all the options available to such a simple, but effective option. However the reason that Zelda isn't continued to be played at the competitive level is because she has a limit, strategies available to higher tiered characters can counter her bair. On the other hand Zelda can be played to a certain level because of her ease in pressing back on the c-stick. A pro player can only take Zelda so high, while a bad player can only take her so low, and thus her Range is very small. Moving back to Fox, his maximum is perceived by most to be the highest of all of the characters; however his minimum is so ridiculously low that its very easy to lose against people who barely know what they are doing.

Based on all that I have mentioned wouldn't characters like Falcon or Sheik be much more preferable to improve at the game with because they abuse tactics revolving around fundamentals and have relatively low minimums with reasonable maximums?

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I just want to clear up one big issue with what I wrote about: having fun. This method of improving parallels decreasing your enjoyment out of playing the game. Maybe you don't enjoy playing simple characters and thus wont find motivation to improve this way, I believe this method of improving is directed at those who enjoy seeing refinement in their play and hold hopes to attaining the highest level of play. Lastly I just want to make it clear that these ideas are not my own I have basically taken this video about League and translated the League terms to Smash terms. If anyone notices any confusing portions or wants to ask questions, feel free to pm me. Have a nice day.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's an interesting idea. I've heard of recommending Mario to newer players since he covers a lot of basic stuff but is simpler than high tiers, but this is that idea to an extreme. I think you can go about this in two ways: your way of playing increasingly more complicated characters, or you can put restrictions on yourself playing the character you want(focus on defense, on offense, on projectiles, on simple combos, etc). I think the second will appeal to more people but the first should be good as well. Also if people aren't having fun learning with either method they should find another route because that's the only way they're going to stick with it.

 

[Swarles]

If I could pick you brain a little bit more I was wondering which methodology you follow when dissecting a technique of a character. While reading Squids Falco Guide, Squid describes how to learn an aspect of a character's gameplay, lets say shield pressure, he would theorize and study every situation and way of applying shield pressure. Squid's process of learning is very thorough and leaves very little gaps in terms of knowledge; however I feel this way is hard to digest all together and isn't as concrete in one's mind as the second method I will describe. The second method, or Kira's Method, is while in a match look for what you are being beaten by and then research until you are no longer going to be beat by said tactic, I assume this method would focus on mistakes in one sectioned part of gameplay rather than mistakes in general. Kira's Method makes me extremely uneasy because it feels as though one will never fully understand a concept unless they play a diverse group of people that utilize varying tactics.

A brief tactics question I feel I compelled to ask is when to stop lasering and use movements instead. Having played Marth before I understand that your movement is only threatening if you threaten the moves behind it, how does that work with Falco? Or is it more of a mix up with laser spacing, in the same vein of "If I shoot you with this laser you will be scared and I can shield with confidence knowing that your first instinct is to not grab"?

As I wrote this out I began to side more towards Squid's Method as your notes can be organized, broken down, and returned to. Given the lacking talent you experienced rising up in NC I would assume the Squid's Method would have worked best for you, but who am I to know. Perhaps you have a third way of breaking down situations in the game, if so I would love to read it. Thanks for reading

 

[Dr Peepee]

I tend to just use analysis + what I lose to, with a little of the total possibilities on the side. In other words, I focus on how players and the meta handle a given situation or type of one and then go from there. Then to stay ahead of the meta or to develop my own way of doing things, I look at possible options and try to explore ways people haven't done things yet. It's not like we can look at every possible shield pressure variant as we wouldn't know them all and if you went with a bunch of very minor spacing and timing differences you would get a very very long list of permutations, each of which is worth exploring on its own and in connection to the larger group of pressure it resembles.

Your movement is still in relation to your tools, except now your tools include laser in place or in shifting distances. Laser is like a jumping off point for your own threats that you use movement or lasers to create(if you're close enough to Nair after laser then laser threatens Nair, but otherwise you'd need to dash/run forward to do it. In this way I can't say laser or movement necessarily threaten but it will depend).

 

[Cucumber]

Situation: I shine a fox at low % in the middle of battlefield. He DIs to a side platform and I can't get there fast enough to shine again before he techs.

How do you guys react to a fox's platform techs?
For tech rolls I can waveland and grab, JC shine, or shield drop shine. I often get hit by a quick getup attack or tech in place shine. If I shield anticipating getup attack then I can't cover roll behind me really. Tech in place is too fast to punish after wavelanding so I have to commit to a shine waveland, which is slower.