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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Twilight Emblem

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Edit- Sorry for the long winded question there. I'm working on answering this myself now. If I run into any hiccups with learning this down the road i'll come back here with videos and such


At first I had all these questions but its really exciting seeing just how much you can gain for yourself by getting your hands dirty and seeing what part of what you're trying to learn works and what part doesn't and why. Trial and error is really amazing.

That said it is still a good idea IMO to get information from people who have already been where you're going so the info on these threads has really helped
 
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Xyzz

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To add on that, if you're going to LHDL, make sure they're low lasers unless you're actively trying to intercept something high.
Adding to that: make sure you actually are dropping as fast as possible. The amount of people waiting some frames and then trying to LHDL (while they are no longer invincible) is too damn high.
 

AP Renekton

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I see a lot of Falcos drop in on shielding opponents and shine midair before doublejump-wavelanding back onto the platform they're on, or going for midair shine>bair/shine>dair combos instead of just connecting with the bair/dair. I'm guessing the ledgedrop-shine-jump drop-in is safer and commits less than dropping in with an aerial, or comes out faster than a ledgedrop grab, but why (and when) do I want to shine in the air instead of just hitting them?
 

Bones0

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I see a lot of Falcos drop in on shielding opponents and shine midair before doublejump-wavelanding back onto the platform they're on, or going for midair shine>bair/shine>dair combos instead of just connecting with the bair/dair. I'm guessing the ledgedrop-shine-jump drop-in is safer and commits less than dropping in with an aerial, or comes out faster than a ledgedrop grab, but why (and when) do I want to shine in the air instead of just hitting them?
There's no simple answer for when you want to shine instead of aerial. Just realize that the aerial is usually riskier, so you will tend to aerial more often in situations where it is more likely to hit. If my opponent just rolled and I'm positioned to drop and aerial, it's a pretty safe bet because he will be in roll lag and can't avoid it, probably only able to shield it if anything. If he is a DDing Marth fiending for a grab, the last thing I'm going to want to do is attack and get DD grabbed because Marth's so much faster. The third mixup you will often see people using coming down from plats are lasers. Lasers are good at catch dash aways for the DD situation I described above whereas shines are usually meant for prompting OoS options without risking too much.
 

BTmoney

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PP can you talk about how you got your lasers so accurate?
Anything did you specifically? That's the hardest part about playing Falco for me. I think better lasers would help take my Falco to the next level

(and offhand does anyone know a good cadence/metronome speed to practice SHL as fast as possible?)
 

Bones0

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PP can you talk about how you got your lasers so accurate?
Anything did you specifically? That's the hardest part about playing Falco for me. I think better lasers would help take my Falco to the next level

(and offhand does anyone know a good cadence/metronome speed to practice SHL as fast as possible?)
You shouldn't laser at a set pace.
 

Twilight Emblem

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I hope you guys all have a merry christmas.

Edit- There are a few things I want to promote some discussion about today.

Spacing- I'm a new player and spacing is something I can barely find any good write ups on explaining exactly what good spacing is. Is there any place around explaining this? What is your take on the matter?

Conditioning. Can we also talk about that? It seems like a big part of the melee game because its mentioned as a core consideration in PPs posts that are linked in the opening post of this thread but I can't really grasp how to create good conditioning skills.

Stage positioning. I can barely find any write ups or explanations on stage positioning so needless to say my stage positioning right now isn't very good.

If there are write ups already for these things my apologies. I don't have a computer so thread searching is really hard atm

Dr.PP I heard you mention something like first intention/second intention with your move choice and i'd like to hear more on that.

I'll keep the wall texting to a minimum after this lol. I'm really diving into melee now so i'm pretty much trying to train with as many considerations on getting better as possible. Learning about these things like spacing/conditioning etc will allow me to include that in my training as a consideration and help me improve faster
 

Bones0

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Studying videos is usually way more valuable than any writeup you could read. If you want to learn about spacing or stage positioning, the best way is to watch videos and pay attention to the players' spacing and positioning.
 

l will find peace

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Rather than looking for a write-up about these topics, maybe you can think of questions about a topic that you want answered? Instead of being a passive learner, can you think of questions that can help you form a framework in your mind for that topic?

You ask what good spacing is: but what is spacing itself? Is it just about distance and hitboxes between two characters? Does timing come into play when you talk about it (ie, does a sleeping puff threaten your space with bair or not)?

Stage positioning: why is stage positioning a thing? what does a character gain or lose by being closer to an edge, blast zone, or a platform? is it character dependent whether or not a character might prefer to be closer to the center, by an edge, or on a platform (and what other factors matter)? What makes one part of the level different from every other part?
 

Rocketpowerchill

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sup falco boards happy xmas :)

i know i should find out for myself by playing people but can someone tell me when to FF vs nonFF arials like bair and dair? also why is autocancel bair good besides being able to land with no lag
 

Marmalad3

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sup falco boards happy xmas :)

i know i should find out for myself by playing people but can someone tell me when to FF vs nonFF arials like bair and dair? also why is autocancel bair good besides being able to land with no lag
Happy Christmas man! As far as I'm aware there isn't much use to autocancel bair cause it only saves a couple frames and requires some quick fingers. From what I've been told l-canceling is more reliable and pretty much just as good.
 

cjugs

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^i like to SHBAC when I'm retreating against a fast character that I know will catch me I feel like this move, I'll play around with this because I feel like this is a tactic worth going deeper into.
I hope all of you on the falco and smash boards a merry Christmas and a very happy holidays god bless and be safe
 

AP Renekton

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I'm kind of lacking direction in the (low end of middle skill-level) Peach matchup. I'm totally comfy with how she works as a character, I can combo her, I know her moves and I know how to recover, but I never have a plan and I play 100% autopilot against her. Either I'm way better than them and I win for free or I'm not and I sort of just flounder around spamming or camping.

i know i've got a gun and she doesn't and if i kick her in the face that's pretty much a good thing but what sort of openings should I try to force/go in on? How should I try to edgeguard her? I find Peach more than any other character really hard to put in a 'bad' part of the stage (above me???)
 

Varist

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I'm kind of lacking direction in the (low end of middle skill-level) Peach matchup. I'm totally comfy with how she works as a character, I can combo her, I know her moves and I know how to recover, but I never have a plan and I play 100% autopilot against her. Either I'm way better than them and I win for free or I'm not and I sort of just flounder around spamming or camping.

i know i've got a gun and she doesn't and if i kick her in the face that's pretty much a good thing but what sort of openings should I try to force/go in on? How should I try to edgeguard her? I find Peach more than any other character really hard to put in a 'bad' part of the stage (above me???)

there's no write-up on the matchup post so if I were you I would take the opportunity to get on youtube and enjoy some of the classic PP vs Armada sets. Whenever you see him get a kill, I want you to rewind the match to the beginning of whatever started the series of events that led to the kill. Not the first hit, though

To analyze matches and glean as much information from them as possible you have to be able to recognize when a situation is truly "neutral". A fox standing on a platform above a Marth is not a neutral position, even if they aren't hitting each other just yet. A marth moving slowly toward a Falco is also not a "neutral position", it's an aggressive action taken by the marth to limit Falco's good options.

So rewind, find the last time they were truly in a neutral position (both players were in a place they really would not mind being in for the remainder of the match assuming the enemy doesn't change his position) and look at the first aggressive action taken. Was it the peach moving in on the falco or the falco moving in on the peach? Did the falco mess something up, like misspaced a move, got outspaced, messed up shield pressure, got out prioritized, etc? Since you want to look for the things the Falco did right, obviously whatever happened be it the peach approaching or the falco approaching it worked out for the Falco. so you want to understand why it worked and why the other player got the short end of the stick. Was it frame advantage? Was it that he expected a different move and chose the wrong option? Was it slow reaction time? Was it a technical flub? Because it's falco what that leads to is a combo string, or on a floatier character an eventual launch. Look at the whole match afterward -- Is falco getting kills when he gets hard reads, or is it when he 'juggles' the enemy to a high percent and eventually just gets a back air at kill threshhold? is it an extended edgeguard? What parts of falco winning were him going through the motions of tech and just doing what falco does and what parts were legitimate examples of peach being in an inherently disadvantageous position and the Falco doing the right thing?

When the peach gets hit by something, you need to look into her mind and think "was there a better option here the peach could have used?" If you conclude that there isn't or there were not many and she couldn't have been expected to guess, you have a nugget of valuable information for that matchup that you can apply on your own. Essentially, you then want to force those instances to occur as often as possible in your own matches against peach.

that's what I do to learn from videos and i'm sure someone else has a more fleshed out perspective on what to look for in melee videos but the general rule is look for the little things, the littlest things. Paying attention to a combo is brainless, paying attention to the DI choices that led to the combo isn't. Watching a shield get pressured is brainless, watching the aerial and shine timings and comparing them to timings used at other instances in the match isn't.

smash is a devil-in-the-details type of game and that's part of why people stall out so much.
 
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Bones0

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How to study videos:

Watching matches in slomo is a GREAT habit to get into, and one that's helped me a ton since I've started doing it. I usually follow this process for the quality matches that I study hard:

1. Watch the match at full speed for entertainment purposes. This helps to get rid of my tendency to combo fiend. I have a feeling when a lot of players try to "study" a match, they are almost entirely focused on the punish game and how sick-nasty it looks. Plus, as much as I love competing in Melee, a big part of competing in something is to also be a fan of it. I enjoy watching all different sorts of matchups even if I know only 1% of what I see will ever affect me in tournament. It does help to know a lot of the mid tier gameplans overall, though. I wouldn't bother going through them in slomo because the details aren't critical, but getting a general idea of what characters are going for absolutely helps you be ready for those uncommon matchups in tourney.

2. Rewatch the match at full speed looking for overarching patterns. Don't obsess on the details too much that you end up replaying the same bit of video over and over. You just want to get a good big picture of the match, and often set in general. What were the players' tendencies? What was the recurring theme of the match? As an example, try to figure out what the recurring theme of this game was, but make sure you MUTE YOUR COMPUTER FIRST. Then, replay it back and listen to the commentator's opinion of what the major theme/goal of the match was for both players. If you didn't say the same thing he did, what did you say instead? What does your answer vs. the commentator's say about you as a player? (Please spoiler your comments pertaining to the video if anyone decides to do this, though most of you may recognize it).


3. Watch the match in slow motion. Keeping the major keys to success you noticed above in mind, look at the details of how and why it is working. Rewatching sections as many times as possible is great as long as you are actually gaining from it. Don't expect to just rewatch a segment 50 times and suddenly understand it. You have to constantly alter your perspective of what happened and challenge your fundamental beliefs. Someone may watch a successful techchase over and over and just keep attributing the success to guessing correctly. If the whole match is filled with what look like correct guesses despite the opponent mixing up his DI and tech direction, you will feel like it was luck or some abstract skill you cannot obtain. If you challenge the idea that it was even a prediction at all, you may realize, "OMG, he's spacing himself to bait certain tech options and still punishing the most difficult one." "OMG, he's only going for regrabs until he feels the opponent is trapped sufficiently, which effectively reduces his tech options to 2 spots instead of 3." You won't notice these things if you refuse to see stuff at anything past face value.

Neutral is probably the hardest thing for me to study, but I feel like I've gained a lot by constantly keeping in mind both players positions on the screen relative to each other, the direction they are facing, and other states their characters are in (landing lag, hitstun, dash animation, etc). Being above an enemy is generally considered a bad place to be, but if the player only positioned himself above the opponent because the enemy was dashing away and he knew it would be safe, then that's something important to note. If you go through in slomo and even pause constantly, you can evaluate and reevaluate a situation frame by frame and figure out what went right or wrong for each player.

4. Watch the video once again in full speed. I think your fear of getting used to evaluating situations slowly is a legitimate one. To sort of counteract this effect, once I've sufficiently broken down a match mentally about what was going on, I rewatch it and try to notice everything I did before at full speed. If you noticed a really subtle spacing of a move or WD or DD in slomo, you have to be able to notice that same subtlety at full speed. If you pass that segment with the subtle spacing in the back of your mind, you need to rewatch the entire match and force yourself to bring that spacing into your consciousness.

The more relevant an aspect of the game is, the more focused you should be on it. If the spacing of a particular laser was largely inconsequential, I'm not going to obsess over it because Melee is very much about rationing your focus. You can't focus on everything, so knowing what to focus can often be more important than figuring out what to do. A lot of situations have an obvious answer, but if you miss the question, you're kind of ****ed, aren't you? I will sometimes repeat steps 3 and 4 a couple times to really forge those concepts in my memory.

5. Watch other videos of the same players (easy way is to use the next game of the set) that you haven't seen at all yet. Watching at full speed, look for the same concepts you identified earlier. When you go through this process again with the next game, in addition to the other stuff you are trying to notice, try to keep track of what you missed on your first study of the second video. You may notice you aren't lending enough attention to spacing or grabbing or aerials or defensive movements or your opponent's tech patterns. If you realize you aren't instinctively picking up on these concepts in the second video, then for the third one take extra care to really focus on them the first time you watch through. Eventually, you'll be noticing concepts without even trying.

Spacing around shield grabs was one of the first really distinct concepts I learned from watching Mango vids, and these days I literally think about it every time I see a player hit another player's shield. More importantly, when I am playing, that same analysis carries over and I am able to subconsciously space around shield grabs without having to devote huge amounts of focus on it.





I like to think of watching Melee matches as listening to a new song. First, you just enjoy the experience. Second, you try to figure out what the song is about. Analyze the overall format of how the song is composed, and think about what impacts that may have on the song as a whole (how a chorus is repeated or how verses are constructed can really be the factor that makes a song stick out to you in both a good and a bad way). Third, you want to look at the mechanics and details of the song that make it so effective as a means of storytelling. How does the artist emphasize different words/beats/notes to achieve a specific feeling/meaning? What does their word choice and instrumentation say about the emotions of the song? How would you have tried to create the song if you only had a vaguely similar concept? What does your imaginary take on the song say about you as an artist or fan of music?
 

Rocketpowerchill

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How to study videos:
wouldnt ask if i wasnt so clueless
what are examples of matches where the matchup is clearly demonstrated? like "this is how falco vs marth is played"

cuz certain sets are obviously better played and are better for understanding the general matchup on both sides

i always watched vids for the hype but now i will look at them beyond the combos, which is gonna be hard cuz i dont know what to observe and whats the goal for me viewing the matches?
 

cjugs

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I'm having trouble ending my combos after I hit all the pillar ing percents I'm usually on the top plat I either f smash or dair them onto the side plat or try to tech chase but idk what to tech chase with either a. F smash which sometimes is great but I get weird hit boxes or I grab, kind of going for broke, or util to bair again just having a hard time choosing what move to do I'm talking about combos nf ffers btw
 

AP Renekton

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I'm having trouble ending my combos after I hit all the pillar ing percents I'm usually on the top plat I either f smash or dair them onto the side plat or try to tech chase but idk what to tech chase with either a. F smash which sometimes is great but I get weird hit boxes or I grab, kind of going for broke, or util to bair again just having a hard time choosing what move to do I'm talking about combos nf ffers btw
you usually don't need to launch people before the bair, right? if a bair hits a grounded opponent at a decent % it usually puts them in a really easy edgeguard situation.
 

AP Renekton

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Like what kind of %
In the neighbourhood of 80% and over I think? around the time shine/dair stops being convenient and starts getting really hard to land, bair works to get them offstage. I don't think it's a safe kill move until a really high % like 150 on most characters or something, but it's really fast and has crazy range.
 

Swann

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Utilt is super good.

Like holy cow I forgot how good utilt is. Hadn't played this game in too long.
 

Bones0

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Your problem is you're ending combos on the top plat. You need to make sure your combo carries your opponent towards the edge so when you finally disengage you can get them as far off as possible. It's better to end the combo one move sooner and send them off with combo DI than to just get as much percent as possible and have them survival DI. People are good enough at DIing these days that bairing at ~80% is not an effective killing method. They will DI and be able to recover because of how close they are to the stage, and heavier characters won't even get knocked off.
 

cjugs

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Your problem is you're ending combos on the top plat. You need to make sure your combo carries your opponent towards the edge so when you finally disengage you can get them as far off as possible. It's better to end the combo one move sooner and send them off with combo DI than to just get as much percent as possible and have them survival DI. People are good enough at DIing these days that bairing at ~80% is not an effective killing method. They will DI and be able to recover because of how close they are to the stage, and heavier characters won't even get knocked off.
I get what you're saying, but when i end my last pillar so they are at like 50 from here on i have a hard time comboing (into a kill) i can uptilt dair tech chase dattack and all that but it seems like i never kill i end up getting like 80-90 dmg but then it's back to the neutral game. So you think i need to not shine waveland?
 

Bones0

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I get what you're saying, but when i end my last pillar so they are at like 50 from here on i have a hard time comboing (into a kill) i can uptilt dair tech chase dattack and all that but it seems like i never kill i end up getting like 80-90 dmg but then it's back to the neutral game. So you think i need to not shine waveland?
You don't have to combo into a kill, necessarily. You want to combo into an edgeguard. If they DI your pillar to the ledge, you want to work DI mixups. Dair vs. nair keeps them honest because if they survival DI in anticipation of a dair, then nairing/reverse bairing allows you to follow that up (with an fsmash, or you can just repeat their dilemma by making them guess how to DI). Worst case scenario, they DI away and you don't get as much damage, but now they are stuck at the ledge. Damage vs. FFers really isn't a big deal for Falco. I'd much rather have an opponent off the stage at 50% than in neutral at 100%. If they are off stage/on the ledge, you have to trust in your ledge game that you can keep them off. It should feel like a 90:10 situation. Neutral is 40:60 in the other person's favor because of how slow Falco is, and when you take into account that he dies faster the rest of the cast from a single hit, it's crucial to limit your opponent's chances to get any momentum going. I'm sure you've seen or experienced that situation where Falco is beating the crap out of a Falcon, but then he gets grabbed once and dies. Falcon and other characters can't get that key grab/hit when they are pinned at the ledge, but they can get it when they are on stage, even if they are at 100%.

Shine waveland is great for connecting combos you couldn't otherwise control, but if you have a low % pillar on a FFer, there's no real reason to be sending them onto platforms. All it does is give them an opportunity to escape. You can make exceptions when you know for sure you will be able to shine them before they land on the plat, but they will almost always DI towards the top plat in that situation so you should be ready to WL up to the top plat and shine/utilt before they land and are able to tech. This comes up more often vs. Falcon than spacies since he's so heavy that you can't always get him far enough off stage immediately after pillar percents. This is just my take on pillar combos, but ultimately you should be studying matches to figure out how to punish. PP seems to favor pushing people off with nair into smashes, Mango seems to favor a lot of dairs by the ledge to lead into spikes, and Westballz is really good at shine waveland combos.

If you feel like you can't replicate combos other Falcos are doing, make sure you are using the moves properly. Landing a soft nair or reverse bair is amazing for %s where DIing in and away both still combo, so maybe you always hard nair and that's why you can't combo out of it. Also keep your spacing to the ground in mind. If I am carrying a spacie across FD, I usually try to time and space my nair so that it hits the opponent right before I land. This gives me the most time possible to follow up with another aerial or a dash attack. If you nair at the peak of your jump, you waste a bunch of frames falling to the ground so that by the time you are able to move they are out of the combo. Practice waiting as long as possible to combo into your next move next time you play. You almost want to combo like you are trying to catch their DJ (sometimes you actually do want to do that lol). Again, these are all things you should pay attention to when studying.
 
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Dr Peepee

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PP can you talk about how you got your lasers so accurate?
Anything did you specifically? That's the hardest part about playing Falco for me. I think better lasers would help take my Falco to the next level

(and offhand does anyone know a good cadence/metronome speed to practice SHL as fast as possible?)
As I've found with a lot of my new training and thinking, this is part theory, part practice. Accurate lasers are designed to attack where a person is or will be(or both/some combination). I could write a very long post about this but consider how each character can respond to lasers and then look to see what your opponent is responding with. Spacies and Falcon like jumping to dodge the lasers, while Marth prefers to stay grounded. This distinction alone helps you set up how you're going to laser in a given matchup. Vs Falcon I might laser once/twice then act like I would again but instead jump and laser or attack to intercept their dodge for example. But vs Hax I might do that and only move closer vs him as he likes to do grounded spaced Nairs somewhat often and I may want to SH Bair instead of FH Bair to counter it(being above Falcon isn't worth securing the Bair in risk vs reward thinking.)

Once you know things like this, it's a matter of practicing different laser patterns which force the opponent to move how you want and responding sensibly.



To the person who asked about first and second intent:

it's a basic mixup game. If I run straight at you and attack, then that is first intent but everyone is ready to counter that. So then I dash forward dash backward then come in and that is second intention because my first intent, the initial dash was faked in order to attack with the second intention, the next attack after the dash back. When playing closer to the opponent, it should be nearly impossible for them to react to what you're doing so having a strong intent mixup game is a great idea.
 

Xx swift xX

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I've noticed PP and Shiz sometimes add lasers to their combos while falling next to their opponent. This usually extends the combo by keeping the opponent close and in hit stun. I'm having trouble working lasers into my combos - both with deciding when to use them and hitting with them when I do try them out.

PP, I know you just discussed things to consider when working on laser precision. What factors come in to play when deciding to laser mid-combo? Is it something you implement into your combos while practicing, or is it more of some sort of improvisational thing you do on the fly?
 

Bones0

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Lasers are actually pretty bad in combos unless you plan on utilting, shining, grabbing, or are willing to trade an fsmash or something. You can act almost immediately after being lasered so while laser -> stuff used to work on aerial opponents all the time, people have gotten a lot better at avoiding it. Even Shiz's famous runoff plat to double laser usmash on M2K was almost completely reversed by M2K's dair which just narrowly missed.
 

Xx swift xX

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Oh, okay. So is it almost always better to just hit them with an aerial? Is there any time where it's safe/better to laser mid-combo?
 

Bones0

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Oh, okay. So is it almost always better to just hit them with an aerial? Is there any time where it's safe/better to laser mid-combo?
Yeah, I will almost always go for the aerial unless I can link quickly out of the laser like I said. It depends on if you're willing/able to trade or CC or outspace their attack after the laser hits. Even if you can't aerial them, lasering can give them a chance to shield when you could have tech chased instead.
 

Xx swift xX

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Okay. Thank you so much for clearing that up!

Someone told me that if your punish/combo game isn't legit then you'll never get anywhere playing Falco. He said that if you aren't consistent enough to capitalize on combo opportunities every time you get in, then you'll just fall further and further behind with each exchange. Is there any sort of milestone where the mental game becomes more important than improving executional proficiency/consistency?

Also, is anyone willing to play some friendlies at Apex and tell me how bad I am?
 

Bones0

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Okay. Thank you so much for clearing that up!

Someone told me that if your punish/combo game isn't legit then you'll never get anywhere playing Falco. He said that if you aren't consistent enough to capitalize on combo opportunities every time you get in, then you'll just fall further and further behind with each exchange. Is there any sort of milestone where the mental game becomes more important than improving executional proficiency/consistency?

Also, is anyone willing to play some friendlies at Apex and tell me how bad I am?
Your question is a bit flawed because it assumes tech skill and mental skill are separate and unrelated. The more tech skill you have, the more options you are able to exercise mentally. You will no doubt reach a point where having better tech skill than your opponent no longer secures you the victory as it can at low levels, but to say where such a milestone lies is impossible. If your tech skill isn't as solid as the players capable of making bracket at a national, you can't really engage fully in the mental game. One could argue no one really engages in all of the mental games Melee has to offer because no one has perfect tech skill and most top players don't even utilize techniques proven to be humanly possible (shield dropping or pivoting, for example). Improving executional proficiency is such a powerful way to improve exactly BECAUSE it benefits your mental game.

Having a tight punish/combo game isn't vastly more important or difficult for Falco than any other character. But I do think he gets punished harder for mistakes which is why consistency is valued so heavily for him as a character. If a Puff misses an L-cancel at 0%, she virtually never loses a stock because of it (unless she's playing a Roy I guess lol). Falco very well may, so the stakes are higher every time you have to perform some sort of tech. That does not in any way diminish the importance of the mental game, however. It simply means that when neither player knows what the **** they are doing, a Falco with better tech skill than another will destroy him.
 

Marmalad3

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 22, 2013
Messages
29
Location
Vienna, VA
Hey y'all, is there a certain part of the dair hitbox I should try to hit with? It could be my imagination but it seems that occasionally when I'm pillaring, a dair wouldn't send my opponent downwards very far and they can act before I continue. It just seems like most of the time it'll spike and the rest of the time it turns into Roy's fair. Am I doing something wrong?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hey y'all, is there a certain part of the dair hitbox I should try to hit with? It could be my imagination but it seems that occasionally when I'm pillaring, a dair wouldn't send my opponent downwards very far and they can act before I continue. It just seems like most of the time it'll spike and the rest of the time it turns into Roy's fair. Am I doing something wrong?
Dair only has two hitboxes on any given frame, and I'm pretty sure they all send at the same angle with the same strength. The reason opponents seem to go further or less far from the same dair is because of your timing. The beginning of the dair has more KB and stun while the later frames of dair has less KB and stun. A lot of aerials are like this, and they are referred to as sex kicks. Falco's nair, bair, and dair are all sex kicks. The only reverse sex kick in the game is Doc's nair which starts out weak and is super strong towards the end of the move.
 

Xx swift xX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
164
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Related question: when using shine into a DJ weak dair and fastfalling into utilt or another shine, sometimes marth can get off a counter before I connect with the next launcher. Does that just mean the shine launched marth too high due to him having too much damage, or is it some execution error on my part?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Related question: when using shine into a DJ weak dair and fastfalling into utilt or another shine, sometimes marth can get off a counter before I connect with the next launcher. Does that just mean the shine launched marth too high due to him having too much damage, or is it some execution error on my part?
You should be hitting them with a hard dair so they have as much stun as possible. You can get to the ground and shine/utilt before they land as long as you make sure you FF before your dair hits. I highly recommend watching WFs and GFs of Dr. Peepee vs. Mew2King from Zenith 2012. Not only is it a spectacular set, but PP does some of the most pristine pillaring on Marth I've ever seen in the last game.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Finally got to see PP vs. Hbox from Tipped Off 9. Hands down some of THE BEST Falco gameplay to ever grace a Melee setup. First he bopped Armada, now he's got Hbox on lock like the good ol' days. I hope this same PP comes out to Apex vs. Mango and Mew2King.

Do you have any comments about how you came into this tournament mentally, PP? Clearly you have something going on.


 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
I was messing in Debug Menu with Falco, and you'll be able to see that you can JC out of shine on I think the 3rd frame it was and then if you do jump out on that very frame you won't see the reflector's hitbox (which is huge and cyan colored) ever come up since it comes the next or so frame. So practicing with this you can see that you JC'd shine ASAP if you DIDN'T see the reflector box. I found that it's incredibly hard to get the JC early, I was only able to get it even close to remotely by using a claw thumb and middle for b and jump like some people do to multi-shine eventhough I multishine just fine using my thumb wiggle between B and Y yet I wasn't getting it with that even though I was super quick. It's not a big deal, but every single shine most people perform is probably JC'd 2 or 3 frames later than it can be while Claw players probably are on point. I'll pry make a video

Also I haven't checked this thread for a year, and I plan to scour for all of PP's posts on MUs because I remember reading him saying he uses SH Fair to keep Fox at bay or something and to this day I'm still wondering how that can be. Also need to find any big posts about him talking about the Marth match up
 
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