Bones0
Smash Legend
I only saw your WF and GF sets, but those sets alone were something special. Your gameplay was nothing short of inspiring; absolutely amazing job. 
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Rocketpowerchill
Smash Ace
good **** pp, i predicted m2k and you in gfs but i didnt know it was gonna be all you lol
definitely the best player in the world right now for sure
also if you dont mind. Tips on playing with lucidity?
definitely the best player in the world right now for sure
also if you dont mind. Tips on playing with lucidity?
haha thanks for all of the love guys!
I'm super tired right now but when I'm rested and here I'll be writing up a lot of what went on for me this tournament as I promised.
Falco baby!!!!!
I'm super tired right now but when I'm rested and here I'll be writing up a lot of what went on for me this tournament as I promised.
Falco baby!!!!!
Fox128
Smash Journeyman
I'm so happy PP won! Definitely my favourtite player! Incredible sets! CONGRATS!
Also, these are the most recent results vs the other Top 4:
6-1 M2K (Apex2014)
3-1 Mango (Apex2014)
6-2 Hbox (TO9)
2-0 Armada (Evo)
Also, these are the most recent results vs the other Top 4:
6-1 M2K (Apex2014)
3-1 Mango (Apex2014)
6-2 Hbox (TO9)
2-0 Armada (Evo)
Fish&Herbs19
Smash Journeyman
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/show/esr
Right now, an interview with Dr. PP and other Smash winners at Apex
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1vpnd4/exclusive_mlg_interviews_from_apex_8pm_on_mlgtv/
Right now, an interview with Dr. PP and other Smash winners at Apex
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1vpnd4/exclusive_mlg_interviews_from_apex_8pm_on_mlgtv/
I thought there was a sticky for Falco video critiques but it's pretty dead anyway.
I wanted to comment on this video because the way you guys play is very strange. Neither one of you seem to have any grasp of how to use your defensive options. You leave your shields at the wrong times, you almost never tech, you almost never get-up attack when your opponent is sitting right on top of you, you guys space aerials on shields very badly and yet neither one of you seems willing to man up and shield grab. So this is just a video of two players with poor combo DI throwing moves at each other and landing half of them, then getting the other half of them shined OOS because of bad spacing.
There is literally never any dash dancing or baiting movement, you're just zerging at each other because it's the most effective thing to do if the opponent doesn't want to play defensive in any capacity and that's why your matches are a 50/50.
One of the common "mixups" blue falco is using, if you could call it that, is short hopping toward green falco and double jumping away which is a pointless maneuver because it robs you of your double jump, first of all, and second of all restricts you from moving across the x plane in any meaningful manner. I would just jump out and nair you, then you'd be off stage with no jump, then you would die.
Blue falco seems to have problems getting down from platforms. Try falling lasers.
Blue falco keeps trying to jump OOS when green falco is in the middle of throwing out aerials. He could just stay in shield and wait for green falco to miss his aerial, roll or WD but instead he keeps getting hit somehow because either a) he's getting shield stabbed ludicrously early (unlikely) or b) he's badly mistiming his OOS option
Green falco really has a problem with shield pressure. He's doing it, but he's timing his aerials badly and yet he's not being punished for it.
Green falco likes to spam double jump out of hitstun when he gets popped up. It cost him a few hits he would have otherwise evaded if he was more aware of the fact that his opponent was full-jumping to follow up on him.
Both of you get ****ed up by eachothers' bair OOS and bair crossups way too often.
Green falco is great at comboing on platforms but if Blue falco just delayed his getup a little bit he could stuff Green falco's combos.
Green falco is playing way better than Blue falco but his shield pressure is so poorly timed that he's gifting blue falco free hits.
Wavedash back would destroy you guys except that this is a falco ditto and in the neutral game all either of you seem to want to do is SH laser in place and alternate shielding until one of you decides to go in for the 50/50 shield pressure.
I would like to see a Falco v Fox or Falco v Falcon including either of these players to see what decisions they make outside of the ditto.
But you guys are really good at comboing other Falcos who have an autopilot defensive game, I can say that much.
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PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Noob question but when am I suppose to delay my aerials? When I am hitting a shield? Or always? For example, if I laser than approach with a nair...should I do a late nair or early nair then FF and L cancel and shine? Because I was practicing this against my friends and I kept getting messed up when I approached because they would hit me first since I was doing a late nair. Or was it my spacing? I'm confused.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
You shouldn't approach with neither laser to late nor early nair. At least not all the time, and if you do very sparingly.
You're basically going into a rather fair guessing game... will you approach with late nair and they can hit you between it and the laser? Or early and they can punish you for hitting their shield ages before landing? Considering how badly Falco can get bopped in either case here and what you get in return, it's just not worth it. Definitely remember to do other things than immediately following your laser with an aerial (like laser > grab / spaced ftilt / dash dance / ...)
If you think your aerial might hit their shield, make sure you do it late. Getting shieldgrabbed between early aerial and the shine can easily result in a dead bird, so that's the scenario you really, really want to avoid.
You're basically going into a rather fair guessing game... will you approach with late nair and they can hit you between it and the laser? Or early and they can punish you for hitting their shield ages before landing? Considering how badly Falco can get bopped in either case here and what you get in return, it's just not worth it. Definitely remember to do other things than immediately following your laser with an aerial (like laser > grab / spaced ftilt / dash dance / ...)
If you think your aerial might hit their shield, make sure you do it late. Getting shieldgrabbed between early aerial and the shine can easily result in a dead bird, so that's the scenario you really, really want to avoid.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Oh wow so I have to guess if they are going to shield during my approach? That's harder than I thought...So early nair if they don't shield and late nair when they shield? Is that right? Thanks for the help by the way. Now I feel like I have even more questions lol
Or are you saying Nair to Shine is a bad approach in general? Cos I was reading some old MaNg0 stuff and he said Nair to Shine is a good approach. Maybe its outdated in today's metagame.
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wezai
Smash Journeyman
Ok guys, took a very long break from smash and now that I am back I seem to be having issues playing against some Peach players (including my own brother). The issue is that these guys are powershielding my lasers often like 80% of the time, what to do in that type of situation against Peach?
Another thing, I can't seem to shield pressure, even though I know the timing to L-Cancel a D-air into Shine on a shield, but against them I get shield grabbed before I even get to land. I don't seem to have other problem outside of that. The only time I can shield pressure is when their characters are not facing me, so they are forced to roll.
So I am curious, am I just rusty to to l-cancel and shine fast enough and have to practice more or is it normal for a Peach to grab you when you are in your D-air?
Another thing, I can't seem to shield pressure, even though I know the timing to L-Cancel a D-air into Shine on a shield, but against them I get shield grabbed before I even get to land. I don't seem to have other problem outside of that. The only time I can shield pressure is when their characters are not facing me, so they are forced to roll.
So I am curious, am I just rusty to to l-cancel and shine fast enough and have to practice more or is it normal for a Peach to grab you when you are in your D-air?
rpotts
Smash Lord
If Peach is really powershielding your lasers 80% of the time you need to mix up your laser game because clearly it's very predictable. Try mixing up your lasers and approaches and pay attention to the habits your opponent forms. If they always go to powershield a SH approach you can punish that by empty hop grabbing.
If you're always getting shield grabbed then you're either -
- hitting your dair too high on the shield, in which case you need to dair later, just before you land rather than at the beginning of your SH as you're approaching
- using the weak box of your dair (this goes with the first point), or your dair is very stale
- missing your L cancel
- not shining quickly enough after the L cancel
or some combination of the above.
Practice, practice, practice.
If you're always getting shield grabbed then you're either -
- hitting your dair too high on the shield, in which case you need to dair later, just before you land rather than at the beginning of your SH as you're approaching
- using the weak box of your dair (this goes with the first point), or your dair is very stale
- missing your L cancel
- not shining quickly enough after the L cancel
or some combination of the above.
Practice, practice, practice.
wezai
Smash Journeyman
^ Thanks for the reply. Yeah I need to practice practice and practice!
Going to mix up my lasers a little more, been playing for a few hours now and I'm getting the hang of it again.
Going to mix up my lasers a little more, been playing for a few hours now and I'm getting the hang of it again.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Laser to aerial is a great approach as long as you aren't predictable. How you should time your aerial is dependent on too many factors to give an overarching rule. Late aerials protect you from CCing (dair in particular), shield grabs (assuming you shine asap after landing), but you risk the opponent counterattacking before your attack comes out or getting out of range. Early aerials are good for catching jumps, OoS options, counterattacks, and catching people in lag before they can shield, but they are very prone to being CCed, shield grabbed, or punished by other OoS options.
Against a character like Peach, early aerials are less common because she is constantly CCing and even if you predict her preemptive zoning attack correctly, she will usually be throwing out a nair, and it will usually trade if not outright beat any of Falco's aerials. Against a character like Captain Falcon, his OoS and CC options are relatively slow and limited compared to Peach/Sheik's nair OoS or Fox's shine OoS. This allows Falco to SH into his space without being too threatened by any possible counterattacks, so there's not much he can threaten you with once you're in his space whether you have a nair out early or late.
Against a character like Peach, early aerials are less common because she is constantly CCing and even if you predict her preemptive zoning attack correctly, she will usually be throwing out a nair, and it will usually trade if not outright beat any of Falco's aerials. Against a character like Captain Falcon, his OoS and CC options are relatively slow and limited compared to Peach/Sheik's nair OoS or Fox's shine OoS. This allows Falco to SH into his space without being too threatened by any possible counterattacks, so there's not much he can threaten you with once you're in his space whether you have a nair out early or late.
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Orko
Smash Apprentice
I wanted to thank you for a solic practicing method! I'm been grindstoning it since you gave me it, and i've seen a huge improvement in the technique!
Arigato!
wezai
Smash Journeyman
Whoa, thanks Bones0 and rpotts for these solid advice. I was really needing those.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Nair to shine is a perfectly fine approach, far better than what most characters can do. The problem is not the aerial -> shine part. In fact, you are Falco, if you end up inside of your opponent for whatever reason, shine is the move you want to throw out in pretty much every case, haha :D
The thing that you imho need to be very careful with is the link between laser -> aerial. It's amazing against people who don't have their OOS timings vs lasers down, no questions asked. It's also a valid option against people who do, IF AND ONLY IF you a) mix it up by not going in with laser -> aerial all the time AND b) you get something nice from baiting the OOS response (tends to be a nair oos) designed to hit you out of laser -> late aerial if you anticipate it (else they are obviously free to try it every time and just see where they go from there).
Lasers don't add much shield stun, it's nowhere near enough to keep you safe between lasering a shield and then delaying your aerial so much that you can shine before they can grab. So yeah, either you are safe between laser and the aerial, or you are safe between the aerial and the shine, choose wisely.
IIRC, the Apex2014 set between PP and M2k has some quick nairs OOS from m2k's Sheik that do disrupt PP trying to approach with laser > stuff, in case you're looking for some video footage to study.
I personally don't really do laser > aerial too much, because the timing window to punish the opponen for whiffing aerials as Falco (and I don't think trading the chance to get disrupted in your control game for stage control is fine either) is too strict for my liking, but well, your mileage may vary
Bones0
Smash Legend
^To add to this, I think a lot of the time newer Falcos laser to initiate their approach it was totally unnecessary. The weakness of Falco's SHFFLs is that he's slow as ****. If you are close enough that the opponent won't be able to DD or WD away from your SHFFL'd aerial, then just go in. Lasering in that scenario would only serve to give them that opening to escape your SHFFL range. I'd recommend watching PP to learn when to laser before approaches and watching Mango to learn when to approach without lasers. They both approach with and without lasers, but PP has the tendency to laser while Mango has the tendency not to.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
thisthisthisthisthisthisthis.
#1 goal of the neutral game has been achieved... why the hell would you shoot a laser and give it away?
rpotts
Smash Lord
No problem, I like answering those kinds of tech questions. I should also thank @pyroty for showing me how to use the stick for the jump out of shine, otherwise I'd still be using x and failing, lol.Whoa, thanks Bones0 and rpotts for these solid advice. I was really needing those.
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
So do you do Dash Dance to aerial more?Nair to shine is a perfectly fine approach, far better than what most characters can do. The problem is not the aerial -> shine part. In fact, you are Falco, if you end up inside of your opponent for whatever reason, shine is the move you want to throw out in pretty much every case, haha :D
The thing that you imho need to be very careful with is the link between laser -> aerial. It's amazing against people who don't have their OOS timings vs lasers down, no questions asked. It's also a valid option against people who do, IF AND ONLY IF you a) mix it up by not going in with laser -> aerial all the time AND b) you get something nice from baiting the OOS response (tends to be a nair oos) designed to hit you out of laser -> late aerial if you anticipate it (else they are obviously free to try it every time and just see where they go from there).
Lasers don't add much shield stun, it's nowhere near enough to keep you safe between lasering a shield and then delaying your aerial so much that you can shine before they can grab. So yeah, either you are safe between laser and the aerial, or you are safe between the aerial and the shine, choose wisely.
IIRC, the Apex2014 set between PP and M2k has some quick nairs OOS from m2k's Sheik that do disrupt PP trying to approach with laser > stuff, in case you're looking for some video footage to study.
I personally don't really do laser > aerial too much, because the timing window to punish the opponen for whiffing aerials as Falco (and I don't think trading the chance to get disrupted in your control game for stage control is fine either) is too strict for my liking, but well, your mileage may vary
By the way I'm practicing my tech skill and is there a best way or a most common way that people practice tech skill? Is a Bowser handicapped on FD what everyone does?
And what are the basics that I should practice with Falco since I'm a beginner? Is there a thread about this already?
dash dancing is always great. don't dash dance badly. delaying your movements is one of the trickiest things to do but makes you a godlike enigma. instead of just running at people and using moves, running at people, wavedashing back a little or in place and then doing whatever you were gonna do is such a strong mindgame against people you play frequently. delaying aerials a bit = strong mindgame. delaying your getup = strong mindgame. delaying your laser is a suuuuper strong mindgame when you're running SH lasering. timing is an underutilized, abusable mindgame in melee. dashdancing is sweet.
i have a big list of drills and practices on tech skill things with different item/character setups but it's all written down on paper and typing it would be too much work. just go watch a video of pp, and if he does something that looks cool, drill whatever he did 100 times until you can do it too. like shine wavelanding onto platforms. you don't even need to know the names of the moves, just timelink whatever technique you saw and anyone here can tell you exactly how to do it and if you're doing it wrong, probably the exact reason why it's not working out how you want it to.
SSS
Smash Ace
How do stage strikes/bans/counterpicks for all of Falco's top-tier matchups?
Like against Marth, what stages is Marth likely to ban, and what stages are Falco likely to ban?
If Falco wins, what will he normally ban, and what will Marth usually pick (what will he want to pick and what will be his second choice if Falco bans his first choice?)
Same for if Marth wins?
Thanks!
Like against Marth, what stages is Marth likely to ban, and what stages are Falco likely to ban?
If Falco wins, what will he normally ban, and what will Marth usually pick (what will he want to pick and what will be his second choice if Falco bans his first choice?)
Same for if Marth wins?
Thanks!
Beat!
Smash Master
First match will almost always be on YS or BF, because Marth will get rid of DL and Falco will get rid of FD and (usually) FoD. YS and BF carry different advantages and disadvantages for both characters so which one the first game ends up being played on will mostly depend on player preference.
Falco will usually ban FD if he wins. If the Marth player feels comfortable on FoD, then he'll most likely pick FoD. Otherwise YS or BF. Occasionally you'll see PS as well (although I personally don't like PS against non-floaties). If Falco bans any other stage, Marth will pick FD 9/10 times.
Marth will usually ban DL if he wins. If he doesn't, Falco will usually pick DL. If he does, common picks are YS (99% of all Falco players love YS) and PS. I guess FoD is an unorthodox Falco CP as well (Shiz loved/loves it), but IMO Marth wins on that stage.
Falco will usually ban FD if he wins. If the Marth player feels comfortable on FoD, then he'll most likely pick FoD. Otherwise YS or BF. Occasionally you'll see PS as well (although I personally don't like PS against non-floaties). If Falco bans any other stage, Marth will pick FD 9/10 times.
Marth will usually ban DL if he wins. If he doesn't, Falco will usually pick DL. If he does, common picks are YS (99% of all Falco players love YS) and PS. I guess FoD is an unorthodox Falco CP as well (Shiz loved/loves it), but IMO Marth wins on that stage.
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Beat's spot on with what he's saying but stage comes down to preference so much ban picks aren't too static. Don't count on your opponent doing one certain thing, be good at all stages. That's easy to say tho so to give advice that's actually meaningful, I would advise getting super good at FoD. You can't use that CP against Marth because it ****s your lasers but that is actually a better Falco stage than Battlefield if you get used to it, and that's only supplemented by the fact that most people suck at FoD. You want to always be in your best environment while putting your opponent in their least comfortable. Most people hate Falco lasers so they don't mind leaving FoD alone in bans but Falco does nasty things to people on those platforms and it (seems) like hard reading techs with Fsmash is easy as **** there.
I agree that Marth wins hard on FoD though, he's the exception to the "abuse FoD as falco" rule
I would never take a Marth to that level though and would actually ban that over FD because I value my lasers in that match-up more than I mind the chaingrabs and I have a habit of getting swatted by Marth more often than any other stage because of the extra effort you have to put in to work with FoD platforms.
Shiz seeing the potential in FoD was honestly genius and a Falco with a solid FoD is almost as beneficial as a Marth getting his FD
I would say practice on FoD and YS a bunch, don't worry about practicing on FD because none of Falco's matchups really improve too much there disregarding the low tiers, things can only get hairier for him and limit his recovery options as well (that seems like a firm statement so if it's wrong call me out) and mastering platforms is literally the best thing you will ever learn for Falco.
When you think about it, just banning FD against everyone and being really good at the triple platform setup stages (YS, BF, DL, FoD) is way easier than having to learn FD-specific matchup protocol in addition to knowing the other stage setups and worrying about your pick bans.
Really every stage that isn't FD has some 50/50 pros for you. On YS you kill people earlier, they kill you around the same %. On BF you get standard platform height for consistent waveland stuff for your sick platform game, decent blastlines, on FoD you have a sicker platform game and are able to just SDI + DI everything straight up to live longer, on DL you get all this free room. FD just brings heavier **** into the mix. FD really should be a counter pick if we had a logical community but everyone including me loves that stage. I think it shouldn't even be bannable, just an immunized counterpick because some characters really do need that stage at least once a set and it definitely forces a different style of gameplay than PS ever will.
I agree that Marth wins hard on FoD though, he's the exception to the "abuse FoD as falco" rule
I would never take a Marth to that level though and would actually ban that over FD because I value my lasers in that match-up more than I mind the chaingrabs and I have a habit of getting swatted by Marth more often than any other stage because of the extra effort you have to put in to work with FoD platforms.
Shiz seeing the potential in FoD was honestly genius and a Falco with a solid FoD is almost as beneficial as a Marth getting his FD
I would say practice on FoD and YS a bunch, don't worry about practicing on FD because none of Falco's matchups really improve too much there disregarding the low tiers, things can only get hairier for him and limit his recovery options as well (that seems like a firm statement so if it's wrong call me out) and mastering platforms is literally the best thing you will ever learn for Falco.
When you think about it, just banning FD against everyone and being really good at the triple platform setup stages (YS, BF, DL, FoD) is way easier than having to learn FD-specific matchup protocol in addition to knowing the other stage setups and worrying about your pick bans.
Really every stage that isn't FD has some 50/50 pros for you. On YS you kill people earlier, they kill you around the same %. On BF you get standard platform height for consistent waveland stuff for your sick platform game, decent blastlines, on FoD you have a sicker platform game and are able to just SDI + DI everything straight up to live longer, on DL you get all this free room. FD just brings heavier **** into the mix. FD really should be a counter pick if we had a logical community but everyone including me loves that stage. I think it shouldn't even be bannable, just an immunized counterpick because some characters really do need that stage at least once a set and it definitely forces a different style of gameplay than PS ever will.
SSS
Smash Ace
This is good ****. If Falco bans Final, where does Marth go?
Teach me how to platform. I'm good at bairing on a platform, and i know about dair-->fsmash, but what else?
Also I REALLY HATE Dreamland, because every kill has to be a spike it seems, and since Falco is so gimpable, it seems so easy to kill Falco and hard for Falco to kill on Dreamland.
Teach me how to platform. I'm good at bairing on a platform, and i know about dair-->fsmash, but what else?
Also I REALLY HATE Dreamland, because every kill has to be a spike it seems, and since Falco is so gimpable, it seems so easy to kill Falco and hard for Falco to kill on Dreamland.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I strike to FoD all the time vs. Marth. I think he sucks on that stage, or at least with the way most Marth's play. My stage selections from best to worst:
1. DL
2. FoD
3. YS
4. BF
5. PS
6. FD
What you strike/ban should be based off of your play style and what actually happens during games. If I felt like my opponent was bad at dealing with lasers, I might go PS instead of FoD, YS, or BF so I have more room to work the laser game. Never be afraid to pick any stage if you have a general strategy in mind that you think will work. If the Marth drops CGs a lot, FD can actually be a very powerful stage because you can pillar the harder and juggle him without him regaining his jump easily. If you aren't comboing on point, YS might be a better cp than DL because you can kill him sooner and the platforms are easier to combo on.
1. DL
2. FoD
3. YS
4. BF
5. PS
6. FD
What you strike/ban should be based off of your play style and what actually happens during games. If I felt like my opponent was bad at dealing with lasers, I might go PS instead of FoD, YS, or BF so I have more room to work the laser game. Never be afraid to pick any stage if you have a general strategy in mind that you think will work. If the Marth drops CGs a lot, FD can actually be a very powerful stage because you can pillar the harder and juggle him without him regaining his jump easily. If you aren't comboing on point, YS might be a better cp than DL because you can kill him sooner and the platforms are easier to combo on.
RedGamer
Smash Ace
congratulations to PPMD for winning Apex 2014, confirming my theory that 2014 is the #YearoftheFalco
Bones0
Smash Legend
PP could win every tourney this year and it'd still be #YearOfYoshi.
RedGamer
Smash Ace
.....I don't know how I feel about that.....although, I met a yoshi in dallas a couple of weeks ago and he placed 13th in a tourney of 85 entrants
Record videos of your Falco vs the Marths you're playing against and look at what's really getting you killed. If you were doing better when you had room to laser and were spamming lasers and hitting with some crossup aerials, but got wrecked whenever he got in too close and you didn't feel comfortable lasering anymore, FoD or YS would be one of the picks you would not want because they're small and give you no room. So you would avoid those stages while working on dealing with Marth in close corners during your friendlies and studying videos of that kind of situation.
But if you're fine when Marth is close to you, and what's losing you games is not punishing him hard enough on the hits you're getting, or not being able to kill him early enough your favored stages would become FoD and YS, and you would want to avoid PS and FD because they're longer stages with fewer platforms for you to extend your combo game.
It's very dependent on how you uniquely deal with that matchup. Bones0 has DL at the top of his favored stages list, and that alone tells you (guessing here) he really likes being able to laser and jump around between the top platform and either side of the stage, and he's probably good at edgeguarding Marth so the blastlines might not matter to him. DL gives you the movement room of FD (good) gives you platforms (good) and gives you big blastlines (bad). But if you're minimizing the benefit your opponent is getting out of his stage, a stage can suddenly be better for your Falco than it is for other Falcos just based on the way you handle that matchup. Marth likes tons of room too, right? But you're pinning him with lasers, so you get the room and he doesn't get it anymore. In Marth v Falco he likes big blastlines so he can live longer and if you get sent off you're ****ed, but if you're edgeguarding him consistently it doesn't matter how big those blastlines are.
I've accepted that the way I currently deal with the Marth matchup is laser a **** ton and try to get off shield pokes in between shield pressure, and if it turns into a combo then that's great for me. I'm not good at edgeguarding Marth. Just that knowledge about me as a player and how I deal with that matchup would tell you that I like Battlefield against Marth because it gives me room to laser, room to retreat, but isn't too big so I can always combo Marth off the stage and if I'm having problems edgeguarding the more unforgiving ledges on BF will hurt Marth more than they'll hurt me (because I've noticed in most cases once I get sent off I'm dead). I would never take him to FoD but I would take him to PS and DL. If my combo game were to get better and I found myself more reliably able to kill Marth off tech reads or combo him off stage my preferences would shift from "Give me a stage I can laser well on" to "Give me a stage that lets me dumpster this guy quicker." Then I would NEVER take him to PS and I would want to get him on YS or FoD. Then if I not only got good at dumpstering him but got good at edgeguarding too, I would want to add DL to that roster of good stages and sort of bring in a little more of that old laser campy style I used to do in addition to my good dumpstering.
There is definitely a way a certain matchup should be played, but if you admit to yourself that you can't play it that way yet, or it's out of your comfort zone to play it that way, you don't need to sabotage yourself in tournament day 1 by trying to pick the "right" stages. Pick the stages you have had the most success on, there can never be anything wrong with that, success is success.
But if you're fine when Marth is close to you, and what's losing you games is not punishing him hard enough on the hits you're getting, or not being able to kill him early enough your favored stages would become FoD and YS, and you would want to avoid PS and FD because they're longer stages with fewer platforms for you to extend your combo game.
It's very dependent on how you uniquely deal with that matchup. Bones0 has DL at the top of his favored stages list, and that alone tells you (guessing here) he really likes being able to laser and jump around between the top platform and either side of the stage, and he's probably good at edgeguarding Marth so the blastlines might not matter to him. DL gives you the movement room of FD (good) gives you platforms (good) and gives you big blastlines (bad). But if you're minimizing the benefit your opponent is getting out of his stage, a stage can suddenly be better for your Falco than it is for other Falcos just based on the way you handle that matchup. Marth likes tons of room too, right? But you're pinning him with lasers, so you get the room and he doesn't get it anymore. In Marth v Falco he likes big blastlines so he can live longer and if you get sent off you're ****ed, but if you're edgeguarding him consistently it doesn't matter how big those blastlines are.
I've accepted that the way I currently deal with the Marth matchup is laser a **** ton and try to get off shield pokes in between shield pressure, and if it turns into a combo then that's great for me. I'm not good at edgeguarding Marth. Just that knowledge about me as a player and how I deal with that matchup would tell you that I like Battlefield against Marth because it gives me room to laser, room to retreat, but isn't too big so I can always combo Marth off the stage and if I'm having problems edgeguarding the more unforgiving ledges on BF will hurt Marth more than they'll hurt me (because I've noticed in most cases once I get sent off I'm dead). I would never take him to FoD but I would take him to PS and DL. If my combo game were to get better and I found myself more reliably able to kill Marth off tech reads or combo him off stage my preferences would shift from "Give me a stage I can laser well on" to "Give me a stage that lets me dumpster this guy quicker." Then I would NEVER take him to PS and I would want to get him on YS or FoD. Then if I not only got good at dumpstering him but got good at edgeguarding too, I would want to add DL to that roster of good stages and sort of bring in a little more of that old laser campy style I used to do in addition to my good dumpstering.
There is definitely a way a certain matchup should be played, but if you admit to yourself that you can't play it that way yet, or it's out of your comfort zone to play it that way, you don't need to sabotage yourself in tournament day 1 by trying to pick the "right" stages. Pick the stages you have had the most success on, there can never be anything wrong with that, success is success.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I do pride myself in my Marth edgeguarding capabilities, but the main benefits of DL are:
1. Marth can't kill for ****. He can't fsmash you off platforms, which is one of the most common kill setups on other stages.
2. Comboing on the spread out platforms is super hard for him.
3. Falco can recover almost for free with shorten vs. ledgecancel mixups, Phantasming to the top plat and just eating a single aerial that he can't follow up, or going to the ledge when he's covering the other options. Even when they cover ledge cancels, they still can't fsmash you out of it as long as you shield or DJ immediately. Like with the top plat, you'll eat an aerial and he'll reset with stage control.
I think my neutral game on DL is actually not nearly as good as it should be. I don't really FH to plats a whole lot, and I'm much better at keeping pressure on than I am winning the slow spacing battle (though I kind of think Marth just beats that kind of Falco so I'm biased). That's largely why I have YS ranked above BF. I am confident I can keep the opponent under pressure the whole time on YS, but on BF Marth has more space to work with so it lets them use more movement tricks to catch me approaching poorly. Other than the space, there's not many differences between them in terms of comboing and KOing (Falco's recovery does change quite a lot though). I'm also not too sure about PS vs. FD. I kind of think FD might actually be better if you can avoid those grabs. Platforms can help Marth get around lasers a little more smoothly, and they only really make Falco's combos harder to followup (you'll often see Marth get daired onto the plats and Falco just has to uair).
But yeah, it's all very subjective and style-based, hence my suggestion to just go with your gameplan. Type out your general gameplan for each matchup, and then pick the stage that accentuates that gameplan the best. If you try to execute your gameplan on that stage and it doesn't work out, ask yourself what went different from your plan and adjust your strategy and, if necessary, adjust your stage choice. Disclaimer: "I got comboed out the ***" is not a legitimate john for adjusting your gameplan. Defensive things like DIing out of combos, teching, getting gimped, and recovering should all be major components of your gameplan. If you don't have a gameplan for when you're getting ****ed up, you'll forever remain that spacie who gets combo video'd.
1. Marth can't kill for ****. He can't fsmash you off platforms, which is one of the most common kill setups on other stages.
2. Comboing on the spread out platforms is super hard for him.
3. Falco can recover almost for free with shorten vs. ledgecancel mixups, Phantasming to the top plat and just eating a single aerial that he can't follow up, or going to the ledge when he's covering the other options. Even when they cover ledge cancels, they still can't fsmash you out of it as long as you shield or DJ immediately. Like with the top plat, you'll eat an aerial and he'll reset with stage control.
I think my neutral game on DL is actually not nearly as good as it should be. I don't really FH to plats a whole lot, and I'm much better at keeping pressure on than I am winning the slow spacing battle (though I kind of think Marth just beats that kind of Falco so I'm biased). That's largely why I have YS ranked above BF. I am confident I can keep the opponent under pressure the whole time on YS, but on BF Marth has more space to work with so it lets them use more movement tricks to catch me approaching poorly. Other than the space, there's not many differences between them in terms of comboing and KOing (Falco's recovery does change quite a lot though). I'm also not too sure about PS vs. FD. I kind of think FD might actually be better if you can avoid those grabs. Platforms can help Marth get around lasers a little more smoothly, and they only really make Falco's combos harder to followup (you'll often see Marth get daired onto the plats and Falco just has to uair).
But yeah, it's all very subjective and style-based, hence my suggestion to just go with your gameplan. Type out your general gameplan for each matchup, and then pick the stage that accentuates that gameplan the best. If you try to execute your gameplan on that stage and it doesn't work out, ask yourself what went different from your plan and adjust your strategy and, if necessary, adjust your stage choice. Disclaimer: "I got comboed out the ***" is not a legitimate john for adjusting your gameplan. Defensive things like DIing out of combos, teching, getting gimped, and recovering should all be major components of your gameplan. If you don't have a gameplan for when you're getting ****ed up, you'll forever remain that spacie who gets combo video'd.
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PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Critique please. I'm a beginner so I know I have to work on my tech skill. But overall how can I improve not only in this matchup but...overall lol. Thanks in advance
http://www.twitch.tv/greenlightlive/b/498257570
Starts at 8:11 just that one match on Yoshi's.
http://www.twitch.tv/greenlightlive/b/498257570
Starts at 8:11 just that one match on Yoshi's.
Bones0
Smash Legend
You never FH.
When I'm done feeling sick LOL
It's also why I haven't really responded to anything in here, despite there being some good questions asked =p
PolishSmash
Smash Journeyman
Funny thing is, I never really learned to incorporate full hopping into my gameplay. When I first picked up this game Short Hopping was the first thing I learned. I thought full hopping was bad to do. I thought going into the air was "campy" lol and I just wanted to SH at someone and just go in and fight. Now I got so use to it that sometimes I'll try to full hop to a platform to punish someone and instead I'll SH cos I'm so use to it haha. Anyway, thanks for noticing it. How do I know when to FH?
stivo
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2013
- Messages
- 5
Hi guys.
I'm a german Falco player since 07 and I wanted to ask you guys for some help.
I've bin working my ass off for the last couple of months working on my execution, my decision making and my mindset as hard as I could.
I think my mindset and execution are fine by now but I lack in decistion making.
This is a video of me playing against Usleon (a very good german sheik player) this Saturday in Winners Finals of a Tournament me and pheX hosted in Hamburg.
I want to ask you for advice.
I myself have worked out some outlines so far as well which are:
improve my ftilt /combo DI vs sheik in general
Use more fake approaches / Dash Dances to bait out nair OOS approach covers fx
Anti tech chasing
Especially the anti tech chasing is what concerns me the most.
During the set you might notice that i tried to adapt to usleon mainly going for my reaction after the tech/getup rather for the getup directly.
So i tried a mixup between dash away/ftilt/fsmash/ftilt and spotdodge/rolls but still I got techchased a LOT.
Also my recovery vs Needles sucks. Any advice?
I'm a german Falco player since 07 and I wanted to ask you guys for some help.
I've bin working my ass off for the last couple of months working on my execution, my decision making and my mindset as hard as I could.
I think my mindset and execution are fine by now but I lack in decistion making.
This is a video of me playing against Usleon (a very good german sheik player) this Saturday in Winners Finals of a Tournament me and pheX hosted in Hamburg.
I want to ask you for advice.
I myself have worked out some outlines so far as well which are:
improve my ftilt /combo DI vs sheik in general
Use more fake approaches / Dash Dances to bait out nair OOS approach covers fx
Anti tech chasing
Especially the anti tech chasing is what concerns me the most.
During the set you might notice that i tried to adapt to usleon mainly going for my reaction after the tech/getup rather for the getup directly.
So i tried a mixup between dash away/ftilt/fsmash/ftilt and spotdodge/rolls but still I got techchased a LOT.
Also my recovery vs Needles sucks. Any advice?
bolt.
Smash Ace
You don't play well when you get close to people. It looks like you aren't prepared to deal with your opponents character, and you're just running away. The best general advice I can give you is to watch the other character closer, don't over extend and get better at playing in close spaces.
To work on this you can practice playing without lasers. Doing this should help get rid of your laser crutch that you rely on.
Some specific stuff-
Add shine grab and fade away aerials to make your pressure more diverse.
Try to laser grab as an approach. If you can lock people down with lasers it's really good.
Ohhh and bair more. Especially when you get your opponent in tight positions. You just attack people straight up most the time and give them and easy escape. If i think someone is going to run in on me I do an auto-canceled bair but if I'm pressuring them in shield grab range I like low bairs that way it doesn't give the opponent a ton of frames to grab you.
Dash dance is good too, it would help your neutral if you dash danced after hitting a laser and reacted to people's laser reactions. You did it a couple of times, but didn't react well when sheik approached you.
In between stocks light shield on a platform or stay grounded and move in a weird pattern. You did a really poor job at holding stocks after you took a stock because you jumped around a lot making you an easy target.
You did some double jumps at sheik in neutral that were really unsafe. I would try to not do that.
I guess more general matchup advice would be get better at staying grounded and crouch canceling. That should help a bunch.
Sometimes when you crouch cancelled and got pushed somewhat far away you would full hop right after (7:31). Instead of that try moving toward them first then attacking so you don't need to full hop, which takes a lot of time, to cover all the space.
Vs Needles try to stay higher when recovering. I like phantasming onto platforms, preferably as far towards center stage as possible, in this mu. Another thing you can try is just straight up recovering without jumping. That will throw off your opponents timing. =D
On the tech chasing subject, he was pretty bad a covering the tech in place option, you should have done that a bit more and then switched it up if he adapted. A lot of characters punish the tech in place hard by waiting for the freak out move/ spot dodge which is something you did a good amount. What helped me in those situations is thinking about them missing a neutral tech as the game resetting to neutral. Seeing as I don't stand in place shining or spot dodging in neutral I stopped, for the most part, making those scared reactions. Overall though I don't think getting out of tech chases is as important as you think it is. It's important for sure, but you have much bigger problems that you need to focus on.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask. =D
To work on this you can practice playing without lasers. Doing this should help get rid of your laser crutch that you rely on.
Some specific stuff-
Add shine grab and fade away aerials to make your pressure more diverse.
Try to laser grab as an approach. If you can lock people down with lasers it's really good.
Ohhh and bair more. Especially when you get your opponent in tight positions. You just attack people straight up most the time and give them and easy escape. If i think someone is going to run in on me I do an auto-canceled bair but if I'm pressuring them in shield grab range I like low bairs that way it doesn't give the opponent a ton of frames to grab you.
Dash dance is good too, it would help your neutral if you dash danced after hitting a laser and reacted to people's laser reactions. You did it a couple of times, but didn't react well when sheik approached you.
In between stocks light shield on a platform or stay grounded and move in a weird pattern. You did a really poor job at holding stocks after you took a stock because you jumped around a lot making you an easy target.
You did some double jumps at sheik in neutral that were really unsafe. I would try to not do that.
I guess more general matchup advice would be get better at staying grounded and crouch canceling. That should help a bunch.
Sometimes when you crouch cancelled and got pushed somewhat far away you would full hop right after (7:31). Instead of that try moving toward them first then attacking so you don't need to full hop, which takes a lot of time, to cover all the space.
Vs Needles try to stay higher when recovering. I like phantasming onto platforms, preferably as far towards center stage as possible, in this mu. Another thing you can try is just straight up recovering without jumping. That will throw off your opponents timing. =D
On the tech chasing subject, he was pretty bad a covering the tech in place option, you should have done that a bit more and then switched it up if he adapted. A lot of characters punish the tech in place hard by waiting for the freak out move/ spot dodge which is something you did a good amount. What helped me in those situations is thinking about them missing a neutral tech as the game resetting to neutral. Seeing as I don't stand in place shining or spot dodging in neutral I stopped, for the most part, making those scared reactions. Overall though I don't think getting out of tech chases is as important as you think it is. It's important for sure, but you have much bigger problems that you need to focus on.
If you have any more questions feel free to ask. =D