PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP,

I was analyzing your first falco game vs S2j at Apex ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg&t=371s) and I have a few questions:

I noticed S2J was playing your lasers very defensively and only called out your lasers a few times during the entire game (5:00 for example), how do you get falcons to respect your laser game so heavily? Is it due to you mixing up dash back laser with things like dash back bair? (5:43)

How do you beat run up shield? You and S2J both applied run up shield heavily when in the corner, and saw almost no punishes on it, in fact, I think S2J calls it out here (6:22), yet your still able to roll away from it. I thought shield was supposed to be disadvantageous yet you still have access to good movement options (buffer roll, WD), and good attacking options (Laser, Aerials,Shine), how are you supposed to call out and beat a player who abuses this?

I know you get the kills on these edgeguards (5:10,5:50) but how do you feel about shine turnaround bair? I feel like it completely invalidates captain falcon's chances at getting back on stage. In fact, you use something similar to that when you edgeguard him @ 6:15, why don't more falcos use this?

Last but not least, why has nobody mapped out all of Falco's tech chase options? I feel like falco could become so much deadlier if you're able to follow-up on even one tech chase. So many tech chases lead into falco's deadlier punishes (Dair,Shine,Grab,Utilt,FSmash,DSmash),is it just not worth the effort recognizing or are Falco players simply being lazy?

Even if you're not PP feel free to discuss this with me.


Thanks in advance,
Chuk

If they don't know you will laser, by the time you do they won't be able to react well. So if you're also threatening approaches and things like Bair out of dash back, then it becomes quite hard to also react to laser startup.

Run up shield you can either grab or just space on it, or in Falco's case shoot it. Grab is fairly risky though so that's why it's hard to punish. Also running up and shielding can make them hit your shield high up and be in an awkward/punishable position, so it's about how you hit the shield basically. Beating this can depend on how often someone uses it, as grab becomes more possible the more they use it, but otherwise just spacing to beat any approach or lasering to cover different approaches anyway gives you a good position against someone who runs into shield.

I don't think it's normally necessary, but it doesn't really hurt anything either. It's often easier just to drift out with Dair and kill them though.

Tech chasing with Falco is pretty hard due to his weak dash/run and slow jumpsquat. Also being able to hold down vs his Dair doesn't help much either. DI'ing his Uthrow is also an issue. For this reason, I like hitting opponents up and Bair'ing them a lot which is much more possible to me, or tech chasing on platforms/by the edge where you can more reliably hit shines or Fsmashes which lead to pretty good positions pretty reliably. It's something I need to look at more specifically, but because Falco can't easily just dash attack or grab in tech chases like other top tiers can it's an issue for him I believe. That said I am sure laziness could be involved as well.

So for Falco's corner pressure game, I feel like you either have to commit heavily when they go on the platform, or set up a more passive sh/fh bair. But you also have to be worried about them running into you and brute forcing their way out of the corner. Does this mean that when you have a corner pressure situation set up you have to discourage one and then cover the other everytime? And mixup which one you preemptively cover in the first place? Like maybe fh wl down on side plat to cover the jump to the side plat, which also gives you another angle of attack, and then turn around shield drop bair to potentially beat run through/sh fade forward fair and then land at a roll spacing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=YIEQJs5dnHU
Can you explain this sequence for me starting at 0:07 and ending at 0:13 when wes gets the bair uptilt? I'm confused about the defensive full hop trif did, and wes's plan against Peach when she has a turnip. For trif's full hop, was his plan to go to the side plat to set up a strong turnip/float for lot's of stage presence, and then was discouraged to do that when he saw wes fh fade forward? What exactly is wes covering when his fh there?

My understanding of anti-peach turnip gameplan is to laser less because turnips go through lasers and peach can jump and throw them which means she can avoid your laser and hit you with the turnip in the process, she can also throw the turnip a little later/higher to prevent you from jumping. Was wes simply too far to get hit by it? How should my gameplan against peach with a turnip change if she's too far to threaten what I described above?

It doesn't always feel that way to me, but sometimes it does. It really depends on how you set up coverage and how close to your opponent you are and also stage. DL it's much much harder to cover a lot than on FoD/YS for example. Maybe you can find a specific position that explains your frustrations and we could talk about that.


Looks like Trif drifted away to punish a FH approach and this pushed Wes back. Yeah also your idea about a possible platform approach seems reasonable. I think Wes wanted to cover her FH turnip throw that could beat laser and also pressure her if she moved backward. And if she didn't then no big deal the top platform would be safe to DJ to after he confirms where she ends up, which he can mix with just falling down.

Wes was about max turnip distance and also was just waiting for the throw so he jumped away. If you're farther away then you can laser more or use more platform/high lasers like Wes does, or sometimes mix in rushing her down if she doesn't think you will do it and instead set up lasers.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

If they don't know you will laser, by the time you do they won't be able to react well. So if you're also threatening approaches and things like Bair out of dash back, then it becomes quite hard to also react to laser startup.

Run up shield you can either grab or just space on it, or in Falco's case shoot it. Grab is fairly risky though so that's why it's hard to punish. Also running up and shielding can make them hit your shield high up and be in an awkward/punishable position, so it's about how you hit the shield basically. Beating this can depend on how often someone uses it, as grab becomes more possible the more they use it, but otherwise just spacing to beat any approach or lasering to cover different approaches anyway gives you a good position against someone who runs into shield.

I don't think it's normally necessary, but it doesn't really hurt anything either. It's often easier just to drift out with Dair and kill them though.

Tech chasing with Falco is pretty hard due to his weak dash/run and slow jumpsquat. Also being able to hold down vs his Dair doesn't help much either. DI'ing his Uthrow is also an issue. For this reason, I like hitting opponents up and Bair'ing them a lot which is much more possible to me, or tech chasing on platforms/by the edge where you can more reliably hit shines or Fsmashes which lead to pretty good positions pretty reliably. It's something I need to look at more specifically, but because Falco can't easily just dash attack or grab in tech chases like other top tiers can it's an issue for him I believe. That said I am sure laziness could be involved as well.


It doesn't always feel that way to me, but sometimes it does. It really depends on how you set up coverage and how close to your opponent you are and also stage. DL it's much much harder to cover a lot than on FoD/YS for example. Maybe you can find a specific position that explains your frustrations and we could talk about that.


Looks like Trif drifted away to punish a FH approach and this pushed Wes back. Yeah also your idea about a possible platform approach seems reasonable. I think Wes wanted to cover her FH turnip throw that could beat laser and also pressure her if she moved backward. And if she didn't then no big deal the top platform would be safe to DJ to after he confirms where she ends up, which he can mix with just falling down.

Wes was about max turnip distance and also was just waiting for the throw so he jumped away. If you're farther away then you can laser more or use more platform/high lasers like Wes does, or sometimes mix in rushing her down if she doesn't think you will do it and instead set up lasers.

The platform thing came from playing against my fox friend who, once he started going to the side plat to get out of the corner, it instantly felt like a 50/50 mixup between full hop bairing and sh bairing, and the timing of those options.
I was really discouraged of approaching because of my own hesitance to give up stage, or an approaching mixup that I won 50/50 that ended with me grabbing his shield, but the way we got there could differ, normally with a low aerial shine grab or getting it with shield drop tomahawk or just walk up grab. I normally mixed that up with some kind of high fade away aerial, like a fall through plat bair or shield pressure fade away high/mid nair/dair. There’s more nuance to that whole interaction that I don’t remember because it was a while ago but that’s the jist of it. I’m not sure how to go about improving my plan but at the same time when I execute it I feel like it has a huge hole in it. I think the solution lies somewhere in the realm of half approaching/getting in f tilt range more withmaybe laser or empty hop in like you mentioned earlier.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Maybe you can find a way to get closer before he makes a platform decision, and if not then you can just work on fighting against the platform opponent. That way you can be in good shape no matter what he does or when.

Yeah you'd benefit from lasering there more I'm sure. Drift away aerials even SH ones could help too. When you test again I'm sure you'll know more.

 

[MegaXmas]

Hey PP, this is my first time posting in this thread or really anything on smashboard in like 4 years. Came here to ask you some questions by recommendation of my friend who is an avid user of the marth boards.
Anyway, throughout my entire career, I've been known as that one dude who "can beat anyone but lose to anyone" Ive recently been ranked in SoCal and have taken some sets of really talented players, but I still have that stigma to my name because I still keep losing to people who I and many other people in the community perceive worse than myself. The thing is that I think I care too much about becoming that consistent player and put a lot of pressure on myself to perform and maintain good results. Whenever I lose, I always beat myself up and go into this horrible mental state. I get very depressed and find it hard to even function regularly. I shut myself off or if I have the option I just immediately go home. I constantly compare myself to other players and think things along the lines of "hes been playing for much less time than me, why is he having so much more success?" or "hes just got the juice and I don't". I know it's bad to compare yourself to other people but I have trouble not doing so. I start thinking very unproductive thoughts and stuff that is not going to help me improve in the slightest. I'm so tired of feeling this way, and it happens multiple times every week. I put so much effort into this game and that makes the pain so much worse.
I also have this thing where I perform much better against players of higher caliber than against players of lower skill, and I think that is out of my fear to lose. When up against a higher ranked player, there is not as much pressure on me as losing to them isn't as big of a blow to my ego or ranking. As superficial as it sounds, I want to maintain my rank and seek validation from appearing on a banner of the SoCal Facebook page or possibly the MIOM website. I know the solution to this is to just play to improve and the results will come naturally, but I still get salty when I lose even when I adapt that mentality, and sometimes just go back to my old ways when I don't see immediate results.
Either way, I'm far too inconsistent for my liking, and even though its gotten alot better over the years, I'm still not even close to where I want to be. I've always respected you as a player, but the thing I've respected most was your CONSISTENCY. You do it at the highest level and with in my eyes the hardest character to be consistent with. You also do it in a region with very little top practice which to me is insanely impressive. Just wanted to know you thoughts on this, thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hello and welcome! I will take this concern very seriously.

Yes in the modern day especially, this problem is very difficult. The chatter on Twitch and Twitter and Reddit pushes you deeper into that mindset of focusing on only winning and worrying about them turning on you if you lose. At one point, I actually began hating the masses after they turned on me after my underdog story was complete. I don't believe this was the right answer at all now, but it was the best I could do at the time with my understanding. So too, are you doing the best with what you have even though we both know you want way more. And you should have it!

When you play against players ranked above you, you feel you can let go of those concerns and just chase your dreams. That's very good. However, you need an association to competing and the game that allows you to stay hungry no matter your opponent. Do you think you can only learn playing against people on your level or better? I will tell you right now it's not true. Weaker players can teach you about how to flow when you get advantage, how to experiment with punish or neutral positions, how to maintain relaxation while playing seriously but under lower pressure, and a variety of other benefits. In other words, you are missing out on something very valuable by only worrying about them and not considering what they can offer to you. As you mentioned, I had to really maximize these benefits in my region so I am not just making this up.

But let's get to a deeper issue. Having goals of high MIOM rank is fine and being ranked high in SoCal is fine. Goals are healthy. But you hurt yourself in pursuit of your goal when you worry and make your worth and the game tied only to wins vs higher ranked players. When we lose and have these types of thoughts, we might at first think it's bad and shouldn't happen, but eventually we "play bad" or this person is our weakness. In time, we can even think the game is too stressful or we aren't right for competition and just give up. This is what happens if you don't break the pattern. To break it, we must return to how we used to think of the game when we were starting out and everyone had something to teach us, and everything was new and fresh and exciting. When you only hunger for the game and competing itself, then you will always play your best vs everyone who sits down. In friendlies, this is how we build our killer instinct and make our association with the game enjoyable but deadly serious at the same time. It sounds paradoxical but it can be done. You've done it. What does your ideal best top player self look like? Do they fear people, or do they rejoice for the challenge and chance to grow? A great player can't only hunger to beat those above him, but also those right in front of him. Competing isn't selective.

When you lose you may say, "I am bad at the game because this should never happen." What if instead you said "I can do better than this, but WHY did it happen? What can I do better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" I'd hope you would agree that these new set of thoughts will not only break your old pattern but help you begin to think in a way that changes things for you.

Finally, I'd encourage you to carry out an experiment that I've found wonderfully helpful for me. Ask yourself what the absolute worst thing is that can happen at an event or series of events. You go 0-2 and get JV 5'd by your round 1 opponents, everyone judges you and says you're awful now and won't be any good, etc. And you'd probably feel horrible about that for a week or two, right? But then what? You'd return to normal if you're really honest about it. So if you can survive whatever the worst is, and it isn't going to happen, then there's nothing to worry about.


My final point here is a different way of saying what I've said all along. If you stop fighting your fear and just accept it, then it no longer holds power over you. Accepting loss means you won't lose. And if you do, it won't be as bad or for as long. Losing is a part of competing, but you can control how much it happens and most importantly what to do about it when it does. Again, paradoxical, but I hope you are either convinced now or when you begin trying these ideas that it will be true.

I hope this helps, and let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Good luck.

 

[MegaXmas]

Hello and welcome! I will take this concern very seriously.

Yes in the modern day especially, this problem is very difficult. The chatter on Twitch and Twitter and Reddit pushes you deeper into that mindset of focusing on only winning and worrying about them turning on you if you lose. At one point, I actually began hating the masses after they turned on me after my underdog story was complete. I don't believe this was the right answer at all now, but it was the best I could do at the time with my understanding. So too, are you doing the best with what you have even though we both know you want way more. And you should have it!

When you play against players ranked above you, you feel you can let go of those concerns and just chase your dreams. That's very good. However, you need an association to competing and the game that allows you to stay hungry no matter your opponent. Do you think you can only learn playing against people on your level or better? I will tell you right now it's not true. Weaker players can teach you about how to flow when you get advantage, how to experiment with punish or neutral positions, how to maintain relaxation while playing seriously but under lower pressure, and a variety of other benefits. In other words, you are missing out on something very valuable by only worrying about them and not considering what they can offer to you. As you mentioned, I had to really maximize these benefits in my region so I am not just making this up.

But let's get to a deeper issue. Having goals of high MIOM rank is fine and being ranked high in SoCal is fine. Goals are healthy. But you hurt yourself in pursuit of your goal when you worry and make your worth and the game tied only to wins vs higher ranked players. When we lose and have these types of thoughts, we might at first think it's bad and shouldn't happen, but eventually we "play bad" or this person is our weakness. In time, we can even think the game is too stressful or we aren't right for competition and just give up. This is what happens if you don't break the pattern. To break it, we must return to how we used to think of the game when we were starting out and everyone had something to teach us, and everything was new and fresh and exciting. When you only hunger for the game and competing itself, then you will always play your best vs everyone who sits down. In friendlies, this is how we build our killer instinct and make our association with the game enjoyable but deadly serious at the same time. It sounds paradoxical but it can be done. You've done it. What does your ideal best top player self look like? Do they fear people, or do they rejoice for the challenge and chance to grow? A great player can't only hunger to beat those above him, but also those right in front of him. Competing isn't selective.

When you lose you may say, "I am bad at the game because this should never happen." What if instead you said "I can do better than this, but WHY did it happen? What can I do better? How can I prevent this from happening again?" I'd hope you would agree that these new set of thoughts will not only break your old pattern but help you begin to think in a way that changes things for you.

Finally, I'd encourage you to carry out an experiment that I've found wonderfully helpful for me. Ask yourself what the absolute worst thing is that can happen at an event or series of events. You go 0-2 and get JV 5'd by your round 1 opponents, everyone judges you and says you're awful now and won't be any good, etc. And you'd probably feel horrible about that for a week or two, right? But then what? You'd return to normal if you're really honest about it. So if you can survive whatever the worst is, and it isn't going to happen, then there's nothing to worry about.


My final point here is a different way of saying what I've said all along. If you stop fighting your fear and just accept it, then it no longer holds power over you. Accepting loss means you won't lose. And if you do, it won't be as bad or for as long. Losing is a part of competing, but you can control how much it happens and most importantly what to do about it when it does. Again, paradoxical, but I hope you are either convinced now or when you begin trying these ideas that it will be true.

I hope this helps, and let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Good luck.

Thanks so much for this advice, it really resonates with me. Im actually at Shine right now and am competing in both singles and doubles. Gonna try and adopt this mentality this weekend. U da bes.

Also do you have any advice for remaining cool at majors?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Glad you found it helpful!

I find that more of major calming comes from preparation day in and day out than any one at an event thing. However, I also like meditation, reframing what people tell me to think of it as supportive instead of results-only-oriented, exercise, and letting go and trusting in my training(not freaking out and cramming last second) to be very helpful.

Good luck!

 

[PolishSmash]

Posted in the wrong thread. Disregard.

 

[Noscaj]

Yo PP,

I wanted to know your opinion on aerial ->turn around uptilt as a combo extender for spacies, and starter for floaties and falcon
heres a quick clip of West using it to continue a combo

what I am trying to understand is why people don't use it more since it seems extremely useful, especially against midfallers like marth where you can aerial -> turn around utilt several times -> shine bair or something else to rack damage if the combo is unextendable

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's good, but can be an issue if they go a bit too far to get hit again. So if you have to turn around you often are spacing the Utilt, and sometimes hitting them too far away for a followup or even decent positioning for a pseudo combo. The Westballz example could turn into that but right now it would work fine for extensions.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

What's the point of giving up potential laser control in a Falco ditto at a range where you both are in SHFFL range? Say you just hit them with a laser while they are falling from a full hop (maybe their laser goes over your head or something) and you now have tempo. The gameplan in Falco dittos is to have laser control, so I'm wondering if it's ever okay, or advantageous, to break that rule.

Are there ways to stay grounded and deal with your opponents lasers while they have tempo on fd? Or is it a game not really worth playing. Seems like unfavorable defensive mixups for you at longer ranges with ps, defensive aerials, and then somehow using those to condition your opponent such that you can get your own laser out. What do you think of walk forward ps? Or do you want to keep the distance so that you have more opportunities to ps their laser?

 

[Yort]

It's good, but can be an issue if they go a bit too far to get hit again. So if you have to turn around you often are spacing the Utilt, and sometimes hitting them too far away for a followup or even decent positioning for a pseudo combo. The Westballz example could turn into that but right now it would work fine for extensions.

How does one play with a strategy that revolves around not getting grabbed by marth when he's cornered?

Assuming you have marth cornered and are at a rolls length away, some of the benefits you gain from this position are:
a) ability to attack because he can't move backwards
b) keep him in the corner with lasers and movement
c) bait whiffs which you can then punish / pressure
d) force rolls / him moving towards center which you can then punish

So one of the main benefits you gain from cornering marth is the ability to attack freely without AS MUCH of a risk of getting grabbed because he can't move backwards anymore, but at the same time the risk reward seems bad when you compare the benefits of getting a nair on marths shield / body in the corner versus getting shield grabbed / crouch cancel grabbed etc because of some random contingency / mistake in timing or understanding. Also, consider him rolling through you / jumping over you as you nair in on him, now you are cornered and he is at center thus increasing the chance of you getting grabbed by the edge and dying. And if you do not attack at all and wait for whiffs he can take a chance and run forward shield thus taking more space. I guess I just get annoyed with the amount of things he can do that has high risk reward and also the fact that everyone states this is a terrible position for him and that it should be free. I feel like the fact that his reward is so high here makes it not free, even if you win here.

Somewhat of a rant but based on the above logic (which may be completely off base) it seems like bad risk reward to even USE (one aspect of) the advantage you gain from marth being in the corner, ie being able to attack him more freely because of no dash back, because if that attack doesn't work out and you don't hit a shield with a safe aerial / get a hit on body you get cornered and have a higher chance of dying than he does if he gets hit imo. AND if you decide not to attack and wait because of the above concerns he can always just run forward shield / yolo dash attack and if you're not spaced super far away you get clocked hard lmao.

Does this make sense to you and do you see lots of faults with my thinking here? If so what are they and how can I develop a better perspective on this?

I guess i'm asking about the risk reward of attacking marth when you have him cornered (aka using the advantage of him not being able to dodge attacks w/o db) versus waiting. Also, i'm hoping you could clarify more about this position from the context of WHEN I think I should attack versus when I should wait versus when I should laser etc.

Also, what would an example of a general gamplan be to get maximum advantage versus marth when he's cornered while reducing all possible contingency of getting grabbed? Aka how do I go into the position with the idea of avoiding grab at ALL costs while also winning the position because it's supposed to be a winning position, because I assume this involves not attacking but waiting but waiting is risky in its own way imo.

Sorry this post was kind of ranty thanks for listening.

 

[StrayDog]

Yort It sounds like you need to play around grab enough for him to not be looking for it as an option. Here are some options I use that are immune to grab (as far as I know.)
-Spaced laser ftilt. If he tries to grab or do a take laser/shield laser option, he'll just get kicked off the stage.
-Laser into dashback shield brake short hop oos. I do lots of these mini-dashbacks into shield even in neutral against marth. When he's in the corner, I do either spaced AC Bair or just short hop and wait for some kind of option. If he does nothing then I do an ultra late spaced bair, after which you can dash away and laser, do an AC Bair that fades away (which can bait out shield grabs) or do another short hop and wait to see if they try to roll or wavedash in.
-Literally just consecutive lasers from just outside grab range. Yeah. Marths get tired of trying to put out grabs/moves and taking 2%, 3% here and there, not to mention you are constantly threatening an ftilt to kick them off. Usually they'll eventually just shield, try to roll or try to jump to the side platform.

There is basically no drawback to spamming these options. With "empty" short hops (by which I mean, you're not short hopping with the intention of doing a move, but with the intention of having access to an aerial the instant you need it, and sometimes they will be actually empty) you can easily react to anything Marth can do in the corner if he has shielded a laser. He can roll, wavedash or jump and you have a plethora of ways to cover any of these options, so you can torment him pretty much risk free with lasers, spaced ftilts and spaced bairs and there is really not much he can do about it. Why approach? You have him where you want him. I make it my goal to just spend as much of the match as possible either in this position or with marth offstage. It takes away his dash dance and it takes away his grab. Even if you got a nice meaty hit with a nair or dair, you probably won't get a combo anyway 'cause they'll just DI shine offstage. If anything, you should laser grab, but as you said, if you approach you are giving him the option of rolling to center and then you're in a bad position.

Basically in summary, I think you're asking the wrong question. You shouldn't be speculating on how you can use your advantage to ATTACK marth, but how you can CAPITALIZE on this advantageous position. And the answer, imo, is not to approach, but to block his path back to center and hold him there, repeatedly kicking/throwing him offstage and racking up damage/edgeguard opportunities. There is more than one way to attack in melee. Jumping in and getting your character flush with theirs is definitely aggressive and high reward, but think about chess. Yes, putting the opponent's king in check is a form of attack, but putting a piece in a position where it controls your opponent's side of the board is also a form of attack. You don't need to transition from advantage to high risk/high reward right away all the time. Your mere presence and harassment is a form of perpetual attack.

And yes, if you play in this way enough, you'll frequently find that marth becomes paralyzed enough for you to do safe aerials on shield or other approach options (like laser grab, tomahawk grab, laser shine [grab] etc.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

What's the point of giving up potential laser control in a Falco ditto at a range where you both are in SHFFL range? Say you just hit them with a laser while they are falling from a full hop (maybe their laser goes over your head or something) and you now have tempo. The gameplan in Falco dittos is to have laser control, so I'm wondering if it's ever okay, or advantageous, to break that rule.

Are there ways to stay grounded and deal with your opponents lasers while they have tempo on fd? Or is it a game not really worth playing. Seems like unfavorable defensive mixups for you at longer ranges with ps, defensive aerials, and then somehow using those to condition your opponent such that you can get your own laser out. What do you think of walk forward ps? Or do you want to keep the distance so that you have more opportunities to ps their laser?

Once you get advantage, they will likely not try to get it back or at least not immediately/without you conditioning them to think they can. So in your scenario, you could then bait out their immediate counters and/or set up an approaching using dash back dash in Nair or waiting and attacking or SH'ing backward for Bair or whatever. It's plenty fine to do that here. The point is to think about what they can do and what they will do. Even if they tried to immediately laser for some reason, you can also just set yourself up to quickly attack them or something if they did.

Turn around shield into AC Bair OOS is great at stopping their approaches, and to an extent Dair OOS is as well. Mixing that with laser or WD/FH OOS can give you some mixup potential here. There also seems to be some meta around doing higher lasers OOS to dodge their laser and hit them as they try to laser again, but I don't know much about that. You could walk/run forward or backward into PS as well, both would be fine and have different pros and cons. Ideally you want to be consistent at PS so you can act out of it though.

How does one play with a strategy that revolves around not getting grabbed by marth when he's cornered?

Assuming you have marth cornered and are at a rolls length away, some of the benefits you gain from this position are:
a) ability to attack because he can't move backwards
b) keep him in the corner with lasers and movement
c) bait whiffs which you can then punish / pressure
d) force rolls / him moving towards center which you can then punish

So one of the main benefits you gain from cornering marth is the ability to attack freely without AS MUCH of a risk of getting grabbed because he can't move backwards anymore, but at the same time the risk reward seems bad when you compare the benefits of getting a nair on marths shield / body in the corner versus getting shield grabbed / crouch cancel grabbed etc because of some random contingency / mistake in timing or understanding. Also, consider him rolling through you / jumping over you as you nair in on him, now you are cornered and he is at center thus increasing the chance of you getting grabbed by the edge and dying. And if you do not attack at all and wait for whiffs he can take a chance and run forward shield thus taking more space. I guess I just get annoyed with the amount of things he can do that has high risk reward and also the fact that everyone states this is a terrible position for him and that it should be free. I feel like the fact that his reward is so high here makes it not free, even if you win here.

Somewhat of a rant but based on the above logic (which may be completely off base) it seems like bad risk reward to even USE (one aspect of) the advantage you gain from marth being in the corner, ie being able to attack him more freely because of no dash back, because if that attack doesn't work out and you don't hit a shield with a safe aerial / get a hit on body you get cornered and have a higher chance of dying than he does if he gets hit imo. AND if you decide not to attack and wait because of the above concerns he can always just run forward shield / yolo dash attack and if you're not spaced super far away you get clocked hard lmao.

Does this make sense to you and do you see lots of faults with my thinking here? If so what are they and how can I develop a better perspective on this?

I guess i'm asking about the risk reward of attacking marth when you have him cornered (aka using the advantage of him not being able to dodge attacks w/o db) versus waiting. Also, i'm hoping you could clarify more about this position from the context of WHEN I think I should attack versus when I should wait versus when I should laser etc.

Also, what would an example of a general gamplan be to get maximum advantage versus marth when he's cornered while reducing all possible contingency of getting grabbed? Aka how do I go into the position with the idea of avoiding grab at ALL costs while also winning the position because it's supposed to be a winning position, because I assume this involves not attacking but waiting but waiting is risky in its own way imo.

Sorry this post was kind of ranty thanks for listening.

So it looks like your main concerns are his options of shield grab, CC grab, roll/FH(waveland) onto side platform to dodge as you come in, run in shield, and run in dash attack. I'll talk about what to do vs these options individually at first and then begin to combine counters a bit. However, I'll just say upfront that back in the day I was very very cautious as you are about this problem, so I would take a lot of time and stay spaced well so I could be absolutely sure I could go in safely. If you choose a slower/more patient or even more defensive path, that's totally fine and not bad at all. You just want to play it well no matter what.

For shield grab and CC grab, doing a mid/late Nair or that "Sami Nair" should work fine. This would miss or somewhat lose to most of the other options on here though. For roll, you want to not commit to anything, or commit in such a way you can still hit Marth or pull back. Examples include dashing in but stalling or moving back, SH but drift back or waveland back or just Bair him as he moves through you, hitting his shield and moving back with WD/SH if he rolls after you hit the shield, or using a side platform such that you can shield drop/waveland off and hit him if he does roll. For FH waveland, you can running FH shine, FH Bair/Dair/Nair/Fair, or SH in DJ aerial. You could also just play the next position or try shield poking there. Vs run in shield you can grab(risky), space aerial, back up and then aerial into it or laser in place/backing up to get a better position there. Vs dash attack you can jump over it and intercept, shield or hold down vs it, or back up(might need WD) and dodge it(or go high and dodge it I suppose, such as with a platform or DJ).

So it looks like approaching aerial is good if you do it correctly here. It loses to them dodging and maybe to them running and shielding, which you can cover by SH'ing backward with or without a fake first(DJ to hit the FH waveland if close enough or at least pressure out of it, Bair/mixup vs shield, and Bair DA). So that's one simple way of mixing it up, you use SH backward and mix it with approaching aerial and you can mix this out of dash back. Then with various laser/dash back/spacing/etc factor changes you can go deeper with it.

But yes if you just wait without threatening something, and don't have a good way to play to beat people coming in, then of course you will lose out. And if you approach obviously as well or in a way they set up, then of course you will lose out.

As an aside, I really like landing Nair on Marth by the edge because it can often convert into a Dair or a doable edgeguard so I do think you get good reward out of the position as well. It sounds like practicing and learning the position more would certainly benefit you.

I have a lot of other things I could say such as about how I could get mad at things in the past but then didn't anymore after I understood them, but maybe it's just better to say approach it however you like, and if you want to get into specifics then I'd need to see them or see them more deeply described.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Once you get advantage, they will likely not try to get it back or at least not immediately/without you conditioning them to think they can. So in your scenario, you could then bait out their immediate counters and/or set up an approaching using dash back dash in Nair or waiting and attacking or SH'ing backward for Bair or whatever. It's plenty fine to do that here. The point is to think about what they can do and what they will do. Even if they tried to immediately laser for some reason, you can also just set yourself up to quickly attack them or something if they did.

Turn around shield into AC Bair OOS is great at stopping their approaches, and to an extent Dair OOS is as well. Mixing that with laser or WD/FH OOS can give you some mixup potential here. There also seems to be some meta around doing higher lasers OOS to dodge their laser and hit them as they try to laser again, but I don't know much about that. You could walk/run forward or backward into PS as well, both would be fine and have different pros and cons. Ideally you want to be consistent at PS so you can act out of it though.


So it looks like your main concerns are his options of shield grab, CC grab, roll/FH(waveland) onto side platform to dodge as you come in, run in shield, and run in dash attack. I'll talk about what to do vs these options individually at first and then begin to combine counters a bit. However, I'll just say upfront that back in the day I was very very cautious as you are about this problem, so I would take a lot of time and stay spaced well so I could be absolutely sure I could go in safely. If you choose a slower/more patient or even more defensive path, that's totally fine and not bad at all. You just want to play it well no matter what.

For shield grab and CC grab, doing a mid/late Nair or that "Sami Nair" should work fine. This would miss or somewhat lose to most of the other options on here though. For roll, you want to not commit to anything, or commit in such a way you can still hit Marth or pull back. Examples include dashing in but stalling or moving back, SH but drift back or waveland back or just Bair him as he moves through you, hitting his shield and moving back with WD/SH if he rolls after you hit the shield, or using a side platform such that you can shield drop/waveland off and hit him if he does roll. For FH waveland, you can running FH shine, FH Bair/Dair/Nair/Fair, or SH in DJ aerial. You could also just play the next position or try shield poking there. Vs run in shield you can grab(risky), space aerial, back up and then aerial into it or laser in place/backing up to get a better position there. Vs dash attack you can jump over it and intercept, shield or hold down vs it, or back up(might need WD) and dodge it(or go high and dodge it I suppose, such as with a platform or DJ).

So it looks like approaching aerial is good if you do it correctly here. It loses to them dodging and maybe to them running and shielding, which you can cover by SH'ing backward with or without a fake first(DJ to hit the FH waveland if close enough or at least pressure out of it, Bair/mixup vs shield, and Bair DA). So that's one simple way of mixing it up, you use SH backward and mix it with approaching aerial and you can mix this out of dash back. Then with various laser/dash back/spacing/etc factor changes you can go deeper with it.

But yes if you just wait without threatening something, and don't have a good way to play to beat people coming in, then of course you will lose out. And if you approach obviously as well or in a way they set up, then of course you will lose out.

As an aside, I really like landing Nair on Marth by the edge because it can often convert into a Dair or a doable edgeguard so I do think you get good reward out of the position as well. It sounds like practicing and learning the position more would certainly benefit you.

I have a lot of other things I could say such as about how I could get mad at things in the past but then didn't anymore after I understood them, but maybe it's just better to say approach it however you like, and if you want to get into specifics then I'd need to see them or see them more deeply described.

Since dash back dash in nair lessens your threat range does that mean you can only use that range when you're super close to them? i.e. just outside of their sh bair range? If you find yourself too far away to hit the nair is it even worth it to go in with a laser? In my experience Falco's use hitboxes and jumps more than dash back to beat approaches, except for maybe full momentum backwards laser or full dash back then laser. In the case where they do do a retreating laser the best you get is maybe a poke with an f tilt or another mixup which is more favorable because you have more stage, but what I'm looking for off of this dash back dash in laser is to get an opening not just a favorable mixup/maybe have tempo afterwards.

Turn around shield bair oos and high laser I both forgot about, thanks. I think because I've been playing against players worse than me since I've been back at school which means I have more laser control, guess that means I just have to visualize/experiment more in friendlies. Maybe try to force this more by giving up laser control? Have you ever purposefully given up an advantage to simulate a position against a player that would create that advantage on their own? How do you factor in the difference between the "naturally" occurring position vs the "artificial" one?

Why is it okay to short hop backwards? What kind of short hop is it? Do you have full momentum or start drifting after you do the sh? Do you do the bair immediately or wait to confirm them coming in. Is it even possible to confirm their approach while you sh and then react in the air with a late bair? In the case that it's not I imagine the next step would be to do a preemptive WL or ff utilt or ff then instant sh bair again.

If you finally get a meaningful laser in a laser war then should you always follow that up with another laser to confirm your advantage? How does this change depending on if they can powershield or not?

What's the point of lasering a bunch of times in a row while you are in shffl range? I assume it really can throw the opponent off and make them rethink their strategy at that range.

Is it okay to wait and see what they do without lasering when you both are out of shffl range? Or is it safe to assume that both Falcos are trying to establish laser control and the only immediate threat is a full dash forward laser? I'm thinking this would be useful to see if they resposition, but I feel like I would only want to reposition if I had already lost laser control and needed to find a new way in/new way to gain it back. Am I putting too much emphasis on laser control? I'm trying to follow simple gameplans like you said but idk if overemphasizing it in this case can lead to any obvious holes in my gameplan.

Can you tell me about how you would get mad at things but then didn't once you understood them? Is this something that you still do today? That's something that resonates with me a lot, and I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing. It helps me find motivation to improve but I'm trying to find ways to be motivated to enjoy and learn about the game from a more positive viewpoint.

Also I just want to say, I went back and read some of our exchanges when I first started posting in April and I want to thank you so much. I've internalized so much of that info so the progress is really there. You've really streamlined my improvement and smashboards is a place where I get to learn about the game in the way that I find the most fun; deep analysis/talking about it. TY again!!

 

[Gibbs]

How does one play with a strategy that revolves around not getting grabbed by marth when he's cornered?

Assuming you have marth cornered and are at a rolls length away, some of the benefits you gain from this position are:
a) ability to attack because he can't move backwards
b) keep him in the corner with lasers and movement
c) bait whiffs which you can then punish / pressure
d) force rolls / him moving towards center which you can then punish

So one of the main benefits you gain from cornering marth is the ability to attack freely without AS MUCH of a risk of getting grabbed because he can't move backwards anymore, but at the same time the risk reward seems bad when you compare the benefits of getting a nair on marths shield / body in the corner versus getting shield grabbed / crouch cancel grabbed etc because of some random contingency / mistake in timing or understanding. Also, consider him rolling through you / jumping over you as you nair in on him, now you are cornered and he is at center thus increasing the chance of you getting grabbed by the edge and dying. And if you do not attack at all and wait for whiffs he can take a chance and run forward shield thus taking more space. I guess I just get annoyed with the amount of things he can do that has high risk reward and also the fact that everyone states this is a terrible position for him and that it should be free. I feel like the fact that his reward is so high here makes it not free, even if you win here.

Somewhat of a rant but based on the above logic (which may be completely off base) it seems like bad risk reward to even USE (one aspect of) the advantage you gain from marth being in the corner, ie being able to attack him more freely because of no dash back, because if that attack doesn't work out and you don't hit a shield with a safe aerial / get a hit on body you get cornered and have a higher chance of dying than he does if he gets hit imo. AND if you decide not to attack and wait because of the above concerns he can always just run forward shield / yolo dash attack and if you're not spaced super far away you get clocked hard lmao.

Does this make sense to you and do you see lots of faults with my thinking here? If so what are they and how can I develop a better perspective on this?

I guess i'm asking about the risk reward of attacking marth when you have him cornered (aka using the advantage of him not being able to dodge attacks w/o db) versus waiting. Also, i'm hoping you could clarify more about this position from the context of WHEN I think I should attack versus when I should wait versus when I should laser etc.

Also, what would an example of a general gamplan be to get maximum advantage versus marth when he's cornered while reducing all possible contingency of getting grabbed? Aka how do I go into the position with the idea of avoiding grab at ALL costs while also winning the position because it's supposed to be a winning position, because I assume this involves not attacking but waiting but waiting is risky in its own way imo.

Sorry this post was kind of ranty thanks for listening.

The mixup game against Marth's doesn't start until you've shown the Marth more than once that you're always playing to beat shield-grab. Bonus points for if you can show him you're able to beat a dumb shield grab in more than 1 way. If you get deep in Marth practice sets with a partner you start developing gameplans based on yomi levels 2-3-4, etc. Most random Marth's that you meet in bracket wait for Falco's to kill themselves. Once you've made the Marth start to think about the fact that maybe he shouldn't be mashing A OOS then you can start to mix up in the corner in proper. IMO, at low %s, it's often worth risk of taking a pre-emptive fair or fsmash to approach in the corner just to establish the following facts: I will press my advantage, I will be shield grab, I won't put myself in the corner like a dummy, you will have to beat me and my character, you can't just wait for me to kill myself.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Since dash back dash in nair lessens your threat range does that mean you can only use that range when you're super close to them? i.e. just outside of their sh bair range? If you find yourself too far away to hit the nair is it even worth it to go in with a laser? In my experience Falco's use hitboxes and jumps more than dash back to beat approaches, except for maybe full momentum backwards laser or full dash back then laser. In the case where they do do a retreating laser the best you get is maybe a poke with an f tilt or another mixup which is more favorable because you have more stage, but what I'm looking for off of this dash back dash in laser is to get an opening not just a favorable mixup/maybe have tempo afterwards.

Turn around shield bair oos and high laser I both forgot about, thanks. I think because I've been playing against players worse than me since I've been back at school which means I have more laser control, guess that means I just have to visualize/experiment more in friendlies. Maybe try to force this more by giving up laser control? Have you ever purposefully given up an advantage to simulate a position against a player that would create that advantage on their own? How do you factor in the difference between the "naturally" occurring position vs the "artificial" one?

Why is it okay to short hop backwards? What kind of short hop is it? Do you have full momentum or start drifting after you do the sh? Do you do the bair immediately or wait to confirm them coming in. Is it even possible to confirm their approach while you sh and then react in the air with a late bair? In the case that it's not I imagine the next step would be to do a preemptive WL or ff utilt or ff then instant sh bair again.

If you finally get a meaningful laser in a laser war then should you always follow that up with another laser to confirm your advantage? How does this change depending on if they can powershield or not?

What's the point of lasering a bunch of times in a row while you are in shffl range? I assume it really can throw the opponent off and make them rethink their strategy at that range.

Is it okay to wait and see what they do without lasering when you both are out of shffl range? Or is it safe to assume that both Falcos are trying to establish laser control and the only immediate threat is a full dash forward laser? I'm thinking this would be useful to see if they resposition, but I feel like I would only want to reposition if I had already lost laser control and needed to find a new way in/new way to gain it back. Am I putting too much emphasis on laser control? I'm trying to follow simple gameplans like you said but idk if overemphasizing it in this case can lead to any obvious holes in my gameplan.

Can you tell me about how you would get mad at things but then didn't once you understood them? Is this something that you still do today? That's something that resonates with me a lot, and I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing. It helps me find motivation to improve but I'm trying to find ways to be motivated to enjoy and learn about the game from a more positive viewpoint.

Also I just want to say, I went back and read some of our exchanges when I first started posting in April and I want to thank you so much. I've internalized so much of that info so the progress is really there. You've really streamlined my improvement and smashboards is a place where I get to learn about the game in the way that I find the most fun; deep analysis/talking about it. TY again!!

Depends on how far back you dash. I'd play around with it if I were you. If you want a direct opening, look into counters to those aerials and jumps and then put yourself in position to execute them.

Yeah I play games without lasers, especially in the past to understand how they work better. Challenging yourself like this or ways such as changing your main approach(no more approaching Nair for example) can be beneficial.

It's okay to reverse SH because it threatens pressure or not a direct laser but you can turnaround laser out of it if you want. It's a great mixup. You can Bair pretty reliably if they come in on reaction, but you may need to practice it and learn the correct spacings. You can experiment with drift etc it depends. Yeah in cases you can't react then just guessing with Bair can be alright as there is stuff you can sometimes do out of it or before it that can still make the mixup more interesting.

It's usually best to do another laser, but if they often want to jump away or try to laser over it then it can sometimes be better to not do it. Trial and error can help here. PS they will usually have to WD back OOS to do(can depend on how you win laser war first obviously), so you can either react to them doing it or if they do it more ambiguously then moving slightly in to bait it, or moving in a lot if they're just waiting for a laser can be stronger.

Depends on position etc, but shooting more than once in SHFFL range helps you see what they might have done to counter laser into immediate approach and so can give advantage. It can also show they're looking for something/waiting if they don't move. You can also just force them to jump away.

I think generally right now in longer range fights that laser control becomes pretty important. If PS becomes more of a solid option, or you prefer playing more defense with platforms etc, then waiting for them to laser can be okay. But really I'd say right now it's usually just best to get the laser out.

I think part of the reason I got mad at things was because I couldn't stand failing and felt I would be worth less if I did. Once I began really tackling the core fear underlying that emotion, then things got a lot easier for me in many ways. So no, it doesn't happen much these days, but on days when I'm more tired it's still possible to happen. I'm not perfect!

Ahh that's really cool man. I think you have been taking this seriously and I am glad to help you grow. Please keep pushing =)

 

[M2thearth]

Hi Dr. PP,

I would appreciate any advice on my set against Marth. I posted in the Falco video thread but I think that thread is dead. If this is not the place to post stuff like this please direct me to the proper thread. I'm looking for advice on my punish game which I'm currently working on. I know my neutral game is horrible too but I just want to focus on my punish game first. Most of my combos I only give about 20-30% of damage. So I need a lot of work there. And any general tips against Marth. I know I still need ALOT of work but any advice would be appreciated.

I did my best to do my own analysis so feedback would be appreciated. It's probably all wrong thinking lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gFYbNuuxPA

Apologies for the sound quality.

Game 1
0:49

1. 31% > 75% = 44% damage
2. The combo ended because of get up attack
3. I could have uptilit after the second dair, downsmash, or shine. Possibly dash attack after first dair?

Notes: If Marth is at 55% in tumble what's a good follow up? Dash attack? Downtilt? Downsmash?


2:10

1. 20% damage
2. The combo ended because I did the incorrect aerial (dair) for the opponent's DI.
3. I probably should have done a bair or uair.


2:24

1. 59% >77% = 18%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after dairing Marth onto platform. (Bad techchase)
3. I always miss these when the opponent hits the ground because they are invincible for a few frames. Not sure what to do.


Game 2
7:22

1. 28% > 51% = 23%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after the uptilt.
3. I should have shined onto the platform. or bair, or uair.


Game 3
8:21

1. 13% >35% = 22%

I don't think I should have down tilted at that percent


8:24

1. 35% . 47% = 12%
2. I daired Marth at 35%. Since he was DIing towards me AND I drifted too much forward with the dair I couldn't connect with uptilt.
3. I should have shined or maybe reacted and wavedashed back and shined? Or Fsmashed him after the dair.


8:28

1. 47% > 67% = 20%
2. The combo ended because I didn't follow up after the dair.
3. Not sure

9:07

1. 2% > 14% = 12%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after the nair.
3. I should have realized I hit Marth while he was in the air and followed up with an uptilt.


9:09

1. 14% > 42% = 28%
2. Confused by this. Did he smash DI the dair? How was he able to get out of stun that quick after the dair?

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Depends on how far back you dash. I'd play around with it if I were you. If you want a direct opening, look into counters to those aerials and jumps and then put yourself in position to execute them.

Yeah I play games without lasers, especially in the past to understand how they work better. Challenging yourself like this or ways such as changing your main approach(no more approaching Nair for example) can be beneficial.

It's okay to reverse SH because it threatens pressure or not a direct laser but you can turnaround laser out of it if you want. It's a great mixup. You can Bair pretty reliably if they come in on reaction, but you may need to practice it and learn the correct spacings. You can experiment with drift etc it depends. Yeah in cases you can't react then just guessing with Bair can be alright as there is stuff you can sometimes do out of it or before it that can still make the mixup more interesting.

It's usually best to do another laser, but if they often want to jump away or try to laser over it then it can sometimes be better to not do it. Trial and error can help here. PS they will usually have to WD back OOS to do(can depend on how you win laser war first obviously), so you can either react to them doing it or if they do it more ambiguously then moving slightly in to bait it, or moving in a lot if they're just waiting for a laser can be stronger.

Depends on position etc, but shooting more than once in SHFFL range helps you see what they might have done to counter laser into immediate approach and so can give advantage. It can also show they're looking for something/waiting if they don't move. You can also just force them to jump away.

I think generally right now in longer range fights that laser control becomes pretty important. If PS becomes more of a solid option, or you prefer playing more defense with platforms etc, then waiting for them to laser can be okay. But really I'd say right now it's usually just best to get the laser out.

I think part of the reason I got mad at things was because I couldn't stand failing and felt I would be worth less if I did. Once I began really tackling the core fear underlying that emotion, then things got a lot easier for me in many ways. So no, it doesn't happen much these days, but on days when I'm more tired it's still possible to happen. I'm not perfect!

Ahh that's really cool man. I think you have been taking this seriously and I am glad to help you grow. Please keep pushing =)

If you couldn't stand failing, then did you still get mad at yourself if you lost in a position but understood why you lost?

I went to a smashfest yesterday and unfortunately didn't play any Falcos, but did get a long sesh with a peach.

One thing I noticed is that I didn't often find opportunities to full hop nair/full hop bair their float. The times I did hit it were when I called out her full hop high float suuper preemptively. I think this peach liked to come out of her float earlier rather than later, so I normally just went for a sh nair or pivot bair instead depending on the spacing. When the peach started to catch onto my lower aerials I still didn't do fh nairs out of dash dance because I thought it would just be safer to do a sh nair under where she is floating and then be able to retreat anyway or just dash back laser. So I'm starting to question the effectiveness of full hop nair because it's better against higher floats but you can just do low committal options and stay grounded anyway.

One part I tried to focus on a lot was edgeguarding peach cause that's a place where I think Falco's could do so much better to get more consistent kills on peach and I think you've said in the past that you agree.

There were three general positions I realized that peach's can recover from. High, mid, and low (to the ledge). Against the high float I would try to maneuver myself around her dair to set up my bair. But then I the peach started to float over that and hit me with the dair anyway. So then I started to do more empty pressure while following her under the ground with full hop to top plat from side plat and then get an easier chase down from the top plat if she tried to fade back to ledge from way up high in center stage with laser into u tilt, f tilt, f smash, u smash etc or just nair/fair her. I found this was pretty easy because she already burned her resources of float and dj. That was the just of my plan when she floated high, is that similar to how you think it should be played? I might be forgetting some key options she has like airdodge or something but I find normally that Falco's ff speed can beat her out anyway.

For the mid float the main mixups the peach used was air dodge, mid/late fair, float back a bit to bait out my full hop bair, or ff into ledge or aid dodge on stage. Getting hit by the fair was really annoying because I feel like Falco has a lot of leverage in this position and should be able to manipulate the peach if he knows what he's doing but I'm just mentioning this as an example of getting frustrated at positions before I understand them. Anyway, against the air dodge option, it was pretty easy to do a sh bair (I normally set up with my back turned to the ledge so I'm as close as possible to the ledge but still be able to comfortably wavedash to it) and then after the sh bair chase her ff/drift with grab and then throw back out and reset the position. One thing I found was cool was that if the peach di'd in on the b throw then I get a dair so it ended up not mattering as much which side she drifted to. Is grab the best option to chase her airdodge or should I be doing like a sh aerial to hit her off instead. Looking back on those fairs me, it was mostly the peach cashing in on some conditioning after I had covered a similar airdodge timing over and over, so eventually I just stopped bairing to be better prepared to cover her airdodge and maybe get a dair or soft hit sh bair/fair into dair thing. If I keep doing the sh bair/occasional fh bair is there much the peach can do besides mixup her fair timing?

Against the peach floating at ledge height, I would grab ledge preemptively but she would just float and then wait out my invincibility, and then either ff up b or come in with nair or just float right to ledge. These options all feel pretty effective from the peach's side because her float lasts longer than ledge invincibility and I'm scared to refresh, so right before I run out of invincibility or when she starts to get close I just do a shine turnaround dair or rising bair onto stage. After the rising aerial I would try to down angled f tilt but that didn't hit and d smash didn't hit either. What do you think of ledge refreshing in that position, is it too dangerous? Should I be looking to win the position from there or let her get the ledge and then play that?

When she was on the ledge I normally would just spam lasers into f tilt when she got on stage which I found was super amazing and the peach could barely do anything against to directly beat it. Does sh quick float nair over mid laser height work against f tilt on peach's shield? Because he couldn't do anything to beat it the peach normally just fh out but that forced her to play against my super fast fh and bair so I was comfortable in that position.

This peach was very slightly worse than me but did most of the common options so I just want to know if there are any blatant holes in my gameplan here or if I'm on the right track. Were there any decision paths the peach could have done better and then what can I do to prepare for that? I know that that is a super vague and potentially large topic but I want to sharpen this part of my gameplan against peach as much as possible. If you want further clarification on any positions pls ask.

I played a few friendlies against a marth and a sheik yesterday as well, and I've been finding that laser f tilt and laser pivot bair are super safe pokes against both of those characters and against peach (and because of this I kind of spammed them a lot). What can marth and sheik do against these "pokey" options and does Falco have any other easy to set up safe pokes like this? Normally after the f tilt or bair on their shield the position would just reset back to neutral with me retreating with a laser.

https://vods.co/v/lsqwbq

After the forward throw that squid does at 0:44, how should he have maneuvered? To me it seems like a mixup between staying on the platform or dropping down to cover either the ledge or falcon jumping to side plat. Dropping down is preferable to me because you can still cover the side plat with sh bair or uair or jump shine. But if you stay on side plat and they go to edge you have to jump off into center with a laser or do a shield drop aerial against their option off the ledge.

 

[Smog]

What am I doing wrong if samus is up-bing me OoS when I try to nair shine her. She does it after the nair connects. Am I not hitting her shield close enough to the ground? Also how should I deal with the move in general because it seriously messes me up.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi Dr. PP,

I would appreciate any advice on my set against Marth. I posted in the Falco video thread but I think that thread is dead. If this is not the place to post stuff like this please direct me to the proper thread. I'm looking for advice on my punish game which I'm currently working on. I know my neutral game is horrible too but I just want to focus on my punish game first. Most of my combos I only give about 20-30% of damage. So I need a lot of work there. And any general tips against Marth. I know I still need ALOT of work but any advice would be appreciated.

I did my best to do my own analysis so feedback would be appreciated. It's probably all wrong thinking lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gFYbNuuxPA

Apologies for the sound quality.

Game 1
0:49

1. 31% > 75% = 44% damage
2. The combo ended because of get up attack
3. I could have uptilit after the second dair, downsmash, or shine. Possibly dash attack after first dair?

Notes: If Marth is at 55% in tumble what's a good follow up? Dash attack? Downtilt? Downsmash?


2:10

1. 20% damage
2. The combo ended because I did the incorrect aerial (dair) for the opponent's DI.
3. I probably should have done a bair or uair.


2:24

1. 59% >77% = 18%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after dairing Marth onto platform. (Bad techchase)
3. I always miss these when the opponent hits the ground because they are invincible for a few frames. Not sure what to do.


Game 2
7:22

1. 28% > 51% = 23%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after the uptilt.
3. I should have shined onto the platform. or bair, or uair.


Game 3
8:21

1. 13% >35% = 22%

I don't think I should have down tilted at that percent


8:24

1. 35% . 47% = 12%
2. I daired Marth at 35%. Since he was DIing towards me AND I drifted too much forward with the dair I couldn't connect with uptilt.
3. I should have shined or maybe reacted and wavedashed back and shined? Or Fsmashed him after the dair.


8:28

1. 47% > 67% = 20%
2. The combo ended because I didn't follow up after the dair.
3. Not sure

9:07

1. 2% > 14% = 12%
2. The combo ended because there was no follow up after the nair.
3. I should have realized I hit Marth while he was in the air and followed up with an uptilt.


9:09

1. 14% > 42% = 28%
2. Confused by this. Did he smash DI the dair? How was he able to get out of stun that quick after the dair?

I will respond to specific situations like what you have linked. I don't do entire video analysis as it would be too much for me.

Pretty much for your first situation. And that 55% question I'd need to know specifics.

Dair was fine, but you dashed instead of DJ'ing which made you too late.

Don't assume he will miss the tech. Dsmash would cover everything here so you can just wait and confirm, or just Fsmash whichever side of you he ends up on. You have time, just practice it. You can also Bthrow Marth offstage if he rolls behind you if you want, or runoff Bair him off for more damage.

All of those solutions are fine.

Definitely would have been better to shine, but you could have shined his knockdown here so not the biggest deal.

If you hit anyone out of the air and it won't knock down, it's usually better to just Nair them out of the air because with Dair they can shield or attack right away.

Either DJ over him so you can falling Dair on him and land sooner, or try to SH Dair him falling into you, or dash through him and FH Bair him so he's offstage for an edgeguard setup. You can also just run under him and shark Bair/Utilt to force his jump and then Bair him offstage for an easier edgeguard.

Yep. Maybe you could've waited a second to shine too.

That was a pretty normal amount of stun, that FH Dair just doesn't work there. You need to either WD DJ Dair or WD shark Bair here, or I guess FH Fair if you want.

If you couldn't stand failing, then did you still get mad at yourself if you lost in a position but understood why you lost?

I went to a smashfest yesterday and unfortunately didn't play any Falcos, but did get a long sesh with a peach.

One thing I noticed is that I didn't often find opportunities to full hop nair/full hop bair their float. The times I did hit it were when I called out her full hop high float suuper preemptively. I think this peach liked to come out of her float earlier rather than later, so I normally just went for a sh nair or pivot bair instead depending on the spacing. When the peach started to catch onto my lower aerials I still didn't do fh nairs out of dash dance because I thought it would just be safer to do a sh nair under where she is floating and then be able to retreat anyway or just dash back laser. So I'm starting to question the effectiveness of full hop nair because it's better against higher floats but you can just do low committal options and stay grounded anyway.

One part I tried to focus on a lot was edgeguarding peach cause that's a place where I think Falco's could do so much better to get more consistent kills on peach and I think you've said in the past that you agree.

There were three general positions I realized that peach's can recover from. High, mid, and low (to the ledge). Against the high float I would try to maneuver myself around her dair to set up my bair. But then I the peach started to float over that and hit me with the dair anyway. So then I started to do more empty pressure while following her under the ground with full hop to top plat from side plat and then get an easier chase down from the top plat if she tried to fade back to ledge from way up high in center stage with laser into u tilt, f tilt, f smash, u smash etc or just nair/fair her. I found this was pretty easy because she already burned her resources of float and dj. That was the just of my plan when she floated high, is that similar to how you think it should be played? I might be forgetting some key options she has like airdodge or something but I find normally that Falco's ff speed can beat her out anyway.

For the mid float the main mixups the peach used was air dodge, mid/late fair, float back a bit to bait out my full hop bair, or ff into ledge or aid dodge on stage. Getting hit by the fair was really annoying because I feel like Falco has a lot of leverage in this position and should be able to manipulate the peach if he knows what he's doing but I'm just mentioning this as an example of getting frustrated at positions before I understand them. Anyway, against the air dodge option, it was pretty easy to do a sh bair (I normally set up with my back turned to the ledge so I'm as close as possible to the ledge but still be able to comfortably wavedash to it) and then after the sh bair chase her ff/drift with grab and then throw back out and reset the position. One thing I found was cool was that if the peach di'd in on the b throw then I get a dair so it ended up not mattering as much which side she drifted to. Is grab the best option to chase her airdodge or should I be doing like a sh aerial to hit her off instead. Looking back on those fairs me, it was mostly the peach cashing in on some conditioning after I had covered a similar airdodge timing over and over, so eventually I just stopped bairing to be better prepared to cover her airdodge and maybe get a dair or soft hit sh bair/fair into dair thing. If I keep doing the sh bair/occasional fh bair is there much the peach can do besides mixup her fair timing?

Against the peach floating at ledge height, I would grab ledge preemptively but she would just float and then wait out my invincibility, and then either ff up b or come in with nair or just float right to ledge. These options all feel pretty effective from the peach's side because her float lasts longer than ledge invincibility and I'm scared to refresh, so right before I run out of invincibility or when she starts to get close I just do a shine turnaround dair or rising bair onto stage. After the rising aerial I would try to down angled f tilt but that didn't hit and d smash didn't hit either. What do you think of ledge refreshing in that position, is it too dangerous? Should I be looking to win the position from there or let her get the ledge and then play that?

When she was on the ledge I normally would just spam lasers into f tilt when she got on stage which I found was super amazing and the peach could barely do anything against to directly beat it. Does sh quick float nair over mid laser height work against f tilt on peach's shield? Because he couldn't do anything to beat it the peach normally just fh out but that forced her to play against my super fast fh and bair so I was comfortable in that position.

This peach was very slightly worse than me but did most of the common options so I just want to know if there are any blatant holes in my gameplan here or if I'm on the right track. Were there any decision paths the peach could have done better and then what can I do to prepare for that? I know that that is a super vague and potentially large topic but I want to sharpen this part of my gameplan against peach as much as possible. If you want further clarification on any positions pls ask.

I played a few friendlies against a marth and a sheik yesterday as well, and I've been finding that laser f tilt and laser pivot bair are super safe pokes against both of those characters and against peach (and because of this I kind of spammed them a lot). What can marth and sheik do against these "pokey" options and does Falco have any other easy to set up safe pokes like this? Normally after the f tilt or bair on their shield the position would just reset back to neutral with me retreating with a laser.

https://vods.co/v/lsqwbq

After the forward throw that squid does at 0:44, how should he have maneuvered? To me it seems like a mixup between staying on the platform or dropping down to cover either the ledge or falcon jumping to side plat. Dropping down is preferable to me because you can still cover the side plat with sh bair or uair or jump shine. But if you stay on side plat and they go to edge you have to jump off into center with a laser or do a shield drop aerial against their option off the ledge.

Well I would "understand" why I lost but would think it would be unacceptable. It took me a lot of work to realize I didn't actually understand a position if I could lose it repeatedly or somewhat often. You do make a good point though that it took more than just positional and matchup understanding to keep me from being upset, and it also required respecting my opponents and accepting I could get hit, which made it much easier to not get hit(my rate of JV5s went up from like 1 or 2 to many after making this switch for example).

Yeah I wouldn't say dash FH aerial is super common, moreso just something that opens up if you force Peach to slow down and not immediately FC when you get near her.

Agreed largely with your handling of her going high.

The Bthrow thing can be pretty good but I wasn't sure how often it actually worked if she held in(can she airdodge in time or DI the throw one way but the lasers differently to mess you up, etc). I like doing SH in place and Bair'ing or drifting away if she comes in to hit her landing, and otherwise SH'ing offstage to threaten DJ Bair. She drifts back, you DJ back to stage. Do this once or twice and her float time is up which usually results in airdodge and then I try to reverse Nair her offstage for a dash FH Dair when possible. Sometimes I get on side platform so I can get more distance on my WD/SH off Bair. I think your routine works okay for what you have to deal with.

I edge refreshed by letting go and drifting toward her with the DJ. If I Bair her I have time to get back to the edge with up-B before she can usually. Sometimes I will sit on stage and let her drift around and again do my fakes with SH off but may also do it facing forward to threaten Dair. I don't remember my flowchart as well here but I know the edge refresh works fine at mid and high percent. You can regrab edge just before she up-Bs I'm pretty sure.

I don't believe Peach can quick FC Nair your spaced Ftilt on shield. And yeah I love Ftilt against cornered Peach too.

Marth can grab the leg of Ftilt I'm pretty sure, especially shield grab. I was discouraged from looking into it a long time ago since many people said this was true, but wanted to look into it myself at some point. I'd test it if I were you. With Sheik I'd just be concerned about her holding down against it and maybe boost grabbing you afterward. If you Bair a shield, they usually have to WD back OOS so you can look for SH Nair or Dair in then. Backing off is okay too, but no need to make it take longer than it has to.

Dropping through with laser harasses Falcon going low and if he goes high you can turnaround Bair here. Dashing back was definitely not the correct move though.

What am I doing wrong if samus is up-bing me OoS when I try to nair shine her. She does it after the nair connects. Am I not hitting her shield close enough to the ground? Also how should I deal with the move in general because it seriously messes me up.

I don't even know if you can reliably shine before up-B comes out since it's invincible on startup. Late Nair into shield can be good, or just slightly spacing the Nair on shield can help you avoid it too.

 

[M2thearth]

Thanks Dr. PP that was really helpful!

 

[Smog]

I don't even know if you can reliably shine before up-B comes out since it's invincible on startup. Late Nair into shield can be good, or just slightly spacing the Nair on shield can help you avoid it too.

Oh that explains it. Also sometimes I was able to instantly tech it without getting knocked up. Am I able to just crouch cancel immediate tech?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you can do that Smog.


MambaGreenFalco , sorry I forgot to mention that at mid-height after the DJ Bair threat, you can fall down with laser and this can set up Dairs or other easier edgeguards since Peach can lose her float farther from the edge and can't Fair you anymore.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yeah you can do that Smog.


MambaGreenFalco , sorry I forgot to mention that at mid-height after the DJ Bair threat, you can fall down with laser and this can set up Dairs or other easier edgeguards since Peach can lose her float farther from the edge and can't Fair you anymore.

From your posts a while ago you talked aboitut how Falco's dash dance was good enough to beat back Peach, and I thought that the main option connected to that was full hop nair.

Random question but do you think you got more jv 5s with Marth or Falco?

Why is it that the mid float position (like at bf platform height) when the Peach is onstage vs offstage so much easier to deal with when she's offstage? I feel like Peachs are normally pretty aggressive from float so it's not like they don't like approaching that much. Maybe it's because if they get a trade it's no big deal in center stage but pretty bad offstage. Also I think Peach's tend to use the extent of their float more when they're floating offstage, is that something you've noticed as well? I also think they tend to float a little higher as well.

When you drift towards her with that bair from the ledge, are you fully committing to the bair? I just tested Falco's aerial drift in that situation and he can actually go out pretty far if he uses dj in such a way that he ends up at the peak of his jump is slightly above the stage after doing a no ff ledge release. What is worst case scenario for falco in this situation when you apply this option? I'm questioning this option because idk how I feel about an option that can end up with you losing your stock at low percents in exchange for maybe getting a bair.

I tested the falco-marth f tilt on shield interaction. Shield grab is super unreliable as a way of punishing Falco's end lag on the f tilt, I think you'd be surprised how close Falco can f tilt marth's shield di in and still not get grabbed. Seems like his whole foot and a bit of his ankle can be in Marth's shield and still be out of grab range. That's enough leeway for me to do f tilts without fear of getting grabbed imo. However, Marth can fair if Falco leaves himself exposed in the same position (no dash back no shield) even on a fully spaced f tilt. On an average-spaced f tilt, (foot in the shield) Falco can still shield or dash back Marths sh fade forward nair or fair. Marth's best position actually is if Falco does another f tilt immediately after the first one because of the fact that fair and nair beat it even if Falco originally did a fully spaced f tilt not even considering the fact that Falco has to walk forward a bit before he does another f tilt if he just did a fully spaced one on Marth's shield di in. Also Marth can grab Falco's foot coming in for the second f tilt pretty easily. As a last note full hop fade forward fair does not hit Falco even if Falco goes for another f tilt. I hope you learned something from that so I can pay you back in some way hahaha.

Is jumping or holding shield the only thing Peach can do after getting hit by a f tilt on her shield?

From playing with that peach I also realized I'm terrible against peach with turnips. So today I went and played around from the peach's side and I realized that Peach has way more mixups when she does has a turnip (which I already knew but never verbalized) and the fact that Peach's like to jump to gain access to those mixups of float height, float aerial vs turnip throw, or even waiting at a high float height. So going back to Falco's position it looks like he can either A) avoid the turnip by going to top plat, side plat, or dashing back. B) box with the turnip with maybe full hop bair to top plat or something? C) move towards peach on the ground to get under the turnip assuming the peach will choose that common option of full hop turnip into fc aerial. So from this decision making it seems like pulling turnips from the peach's side is super strong because it either forces a mixup or pushes the Falco away from center. Some options that come to mind with Falco for dealing with her is to pressure her immediately if she pulls one with lasers, (and I'm assuming if you're in range to approach with shffl then the Peach is pulling turnips at the wrong time) go to side plat and shoot her, go to top plat for access to your bair/dair and full hop bair like I mentioned before. The idea of getting under her turnip seems super risky to me but maybe it's something I should explore. Am I on the right track? How do you like to deal with turnips?

Against that peach I would do sh at her then dj to top plat/ff to ground laser or something. What I found was I kept using that option at the same range, so since it was the same range the peach would do react to that range and do wd back d smash every. single. time. It was frusturating to me because I knew this was a solid answer to my dair/nair/laser when I sh at full momentum at that range. So my question is how do I beat the peach if I know that she will do a certain option that is good against my shffl but only does it in response to me lunging at her so I'm already committed to the short hop? I just thought of doing an early wd down but is that the only option? Do you think the peach was responding to my short hop at her and then doing the option or responding to me being in that range in the first place? I'm inclined to think he was responding to my short hop because he did the same option everytime at that range as I said, maybe it was just some crazy chance.

In the future if I have as much information as I did about the position but don't know the answer to what they're doing should I take the time/brain power in game to think of an answer?

 

[Dr Peepee]

No, the main option there is not FH Nair. It's moving in with SH Nair/Fair and backing up with Bair/laser mainly. I still do not recommend trying it and using more vertical laser strats with ground plays as a supplement.

I just got a JV5 the other day with Marth, so I'll say Marth lol. It's probably the right answer.

You know Peach has to come in when you're offstage, you know where she will float, and you know she can't float/FC backward or in many spaces in front of you(she has to go into you pretty much). And yes they do often use their full float offstage but not onstage.

I'm not fully committing to the Bair always. It's more of an occasional thing if they drift into me, but yes you can go really far. Oh Bair from edge instead of onstage? I don't think I explicitly tested that much, but I did like using it sometimes when that situation came up, and would mix it with DJ drift out then laser on stage or empty land into some other mixup(occasionally going back to edge). Yeah if you miss you're in trouble so I would only go for it if it would hit or I could do that weak Bair hit and regrab the edge(early Bair).

Interesting about the Ftilt. I saved the info, thanks.

Peach could WD OOS, especially backward I think. I think most WD back or jump OOS iirc.

Yeah your ideas aren't bad. I like rushing her down if possible, and otherwise trying to FH Bair/Nair her and the turnip if she jump throws if possible. Sometimes I could shine the turnip back at her as a rare mixup. Otherwise I like vertical rushdown. I could probably afford to test it more, but I never get too concerned about it when I just follow this.

Yeah waveland down out of SH is good, so is DJ and fall on her with aerial or laser. You can sometimes pull back in the SH early and they'll have a hard time telling the difference between a full and partial commitment. DJ waveland on/off the side platform can sometimes get a hit(using shield drop for landing on it) but sometimes will just give you pressure or a better position. You may also want to experiment with interrupting your SH in with DJ earlier to see if you can get more FF Dair punishes or laser pressures. She was definitely reacting to your threat and seeing the startup of it.

Spending time between stocks/games is best for coming up solutions when you have info. If it's a floaty, sometimes if you hit them far away and they are taking time to recover you can think about answers as well.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

No, the main option there is not FH Nair. It's moving in with SH Nair/Fair and backing up with Bair/laser mainly. I still do not recommend trying it and using more vertical laser strats with ground plays as a supplement.

I just got a JV5 the other day with Marth, so I'll say Marth lol. It's probably the right answer.

You know Peach has to come in when you're offstage, you know where she will float, and you know she can't float/FC backward or in many spaces in front of you(she has to go into you pretty much). And yes they do often use their full float offstage but not onstage.

I'm not fully committing to the Bair always. It's more of an occasional thing if they drift into me, but yes you can go really far. Oh Bair from edge instead of onstage? I don't think I explicitly tested that much, but I did like using it sometimes when that situation came up, and would mix it with DJ drift out then laser on stage or empty land into some other mixup(occasionally going back to edge). Yeah if you miss you're in trouble so I would only go for it if it would hit or I could do that weak Bair hit and regrab the edge(early Bair).

Interesting about the Ftilt. I saved the info, thanks.

Peach could WD OOS, especially backward I think. I think most WD back or jump OOS iirc.

Yeah your ideas aren't bad. I like rushing her down if possible, and otherwise trying to FH Bair/Nair her and the turnip if she jump throws if possible. Sometimes I could shine the turnip back at her as a rare mixup. Otherwise I like vertical rushdown. I could probably afford to test it more, but I never get too concerned about it when I just follow this.

Yeah waveland down out of SH is good, so is DJ and fall on her with aerial or laser. You can sometimes pull back in the SH early and they'll have a hard time telling the difference between a full and partial commitment. DJ waveland on/off the side platform can sometimes get a hit(using shield drop for landing on it) but sometimes will just give you pressure or a better position. You may also want to experiment with interrupting your SH in with DJ earlier to see if you can get more FF Dair punishes or laser pressures. She was definitely reacting to your threat and seeing the startup of it.

Spending time between stocks/games is best for coming up solutions when you have info. If it's a floaty, sometimes if you hit them far away and they are taking time to recover you can think about answers as well.

Oh wow I thought the main thing was grounded play vs peach's float. How do you recommend I start looking into vertical laser play? What main mixups should I be looking into? What's the difference between lower top/side plats, and higher top/side plats?

Against Falcon's full hop/instant dj is there a way to push into it/challenge it? Or do you normally just wait for their landing and then go in. I normally just wait for the landing but then they just drift into me with bair or uair. Maybe I should keep my back turned to prep a u tilt/sh bair and then once I confirm they're not drifting in I still have the opportunity to attack?

I've been rereading your post to megaxmas a lot, super useful stuff. In it you said that if you stop fighting your fear of losing just accept it then it stops having control over you. While this part makes sense to me, how can one strive to win but at the same time accept losing? The stronger your will to win is, then the bigger the fear of losing is, right? Do you think that the more you want to win the harder it is to accept losing? So in a way the two things are tied together because your will to win can only be as great as the loss that you're willing to face?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7BYd88oanI

what should wes have done after the laser at 0:24? Idk how I feel about grab because Falco doesn't get much off of it at 0. You're also too close for an f tilt. The other options I would consider are walk forward shine grab, the jump shine that wes did, and cross up nair. How would you throw if you got a grab at that position and percentage?

When you go in hard against Falcon do you prefer to laser more than nair/dair? Assuming they're gonna dash back seems like laser is better because of how falcon's like to mainly dash dance grab or do that sh stomp over the nair thing. But if you think they're gonna full hop/instant dj I guess you shouldn't dash in laser. Should I be establishing a gameplan around landing a close laser in a range where they can't jump or else they get naired/daired so instead they have to hold shield or dash back? An approach any further than just outside of f tilt range seems pretty bad vs falcon tbh.

I shadowboxed laser at a range just outside of f tilt range and then hard approach laser and it doesn't feel as amazing as I thought. Falcon has so many mixups even at that range so I guess I'm oversimplifying it. One thing I did realize from shadowboxing is that it's important to mixup the amount of lasers you do to discourage falcon nairing at that range so that I can open up my sh at them and then mixing up laser, shine, nair etc.

I'm trying to be super careful about approaching falcon because I know from experience if you don't have a plan against him you will get punished pretty hard.

Also the better I get at melee the more useful shadowboxing seems to be for me. Is this because I can visualize better?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Use side platform lasers to hit her typical float height, and then use runoff laser to hit her as she falls. If she falls pre-emptively then you could just land back on the ground with laser, or SH at her(mixing drift back laser etc) or do SHLs on the side platform that can mix with lasering off the platform. Top platform I haven't looked into so much but just don't overdo coming off with Bair since Peaches all look for that.

You can dash FH shine/Nair/Dair/Fair it, or FH Bair it. You can stay turned around and force him to drift back to avoid Bair/Utilt and then back up a little and laser if you want.

Your desire to win overrides any fear of failure. It can make losing harder to handle yes, but the more you accept losing, the easier losing becomes, and then it never gets a chance to overtake the desire to win. This amplifies your winning desire in all moments, including difficult ones.

I'd have either gone for pressure, an aerial crossup, or a grab(unlikely). I may also have done a dash back to see if I could hit him trying to come OOS. I'd only Uthrow or maybe Dthrow at such a low percent because otherwise it feels like Falcon can act first and has advantage. You're not likely to get a followup on either of those throws, but with Uthrow sometimes they could jump away or you could shine their platform land.

If you mean full momentum dash SH in, then it's usually better to aerial than laser against Falcon, and in general. But yeah as you said it can beat certain options and you have a bit of time as you start the SH to see what they're doing. And yeah I like getting fairly close to Falcon so he can't Nair to outspace my moves and then weave around that space to keep pressure high on him.

Understanding positions better, testing out options, and generally improving the skill of visualization will all come together the more you do it. I'm glad it's helping you.

 

[jedimeister007]

So I've made a pretty major shift in my gameplan and mentality and have some questions, but lemme try explaining my recent changes and my thought process first. I've always seen myself as a super defensive Falco who uses tons of lasers and likes to take few risks, and generally prefers space and safety over control or gambles, but I have seen some flaws in that mindset. The main flaw I have is that I constantly miss opportunities, I prolong kills trying to be safe, etc. and it really feels like it stopped my growth in decision making and execution. So recently I tried playing laserless which helped me feel slightly more comfortable approaching, but I still don't think it's going to help me break any habits or grow as a whole.

With that said, I had a few other ideas to really push the notion of being confident in any style of play and also just had some other general questions.

First idea I had was forcing myself to choose a totally different option from what I normally would do (ex, if I'm in a corner and want to roll or shield, I jab or FH, if I want to shoot a laser I dashdance or run in, etc.) just to get a feel for what a different choice in a situation would look like.

another idea I had was just always trying to take as much space as I could even if it meant getting hit so I can learn my limits, or forcing interactions where I take unreactable risks.

But on the topic of approaching, as a general question how good is run up shield? More specifically vs Fox, but I'm more curious about it as a whole concept. I never have explored shielding very much in my career given that most players I play can't really punish rolling so i kinda spam it (lol), but now I'm very torn about how good it is. It seems solid to run up shield and either shine OoS if they do an aerial or something, or WD back if they don't do anything, but I think there are still applications I'm missing, or there's counterplay I'm not taking into account.

Another thing I figure I'd ask is about laser out of the corner as a mixup. It catches my local people off guard a lot so I've used it a ton, but I'm starting to think the risk/reward makes it not very worth given if they read and hit me I'm most likely dead, and the reward is maybe a small amount of space from the corner.




Any help is very appreciated <3

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

So I've made a pretty major shift in my gameplan and mentality and have some questions, but lemme try explaining my recent changes and my thought process first. I've always seen myself as a super defensive Falco who uses tons of lasers and likes to take few risks, and generally prefers space and safety over control or gambles, but I have seen some flaws in that mindset. The main flaw I have is that I constantly miss opportunities, I prolong kills trying to be safe, etc. and it really feels like it stopped my growth in decision making and execution. So recently I tried playing laserless which helped me feel slightly more comfortable approaching, but I still don't think it's going to help me break any habits or grow as a whole.

With that said, I had a few other ideas to really push the notion of being confident in any style of play and also just had some other general questions.

First idea I had was forcing myself to choose a totally different option from what I normally would do (ex, if I'm in a corner and want to roll or shield, I jab or FH, if I want to shoot a laser I dashdance or run in, etc.) just to get a feel for what a different choice in a situation would look like.

another idea I had was just always trying to take as much space as I could even if it meant getting hit so I can learn my limits, or forcing interactions where I take unreactable risks.

But on the topic of approaching, as a general question how good is run up shield? More specifically vs Fox, but I'm more curious about it as a whole concept. I never have explored shielding very much in my career given that most players I play can't really punish rolling so i kinda spam it (lol), but now I'm very torn about how good it is. It seems solid to run up shield and either shine OoS if they do an aerial or something, or WD back if they don't do anything, but I think there are still applications I'm missing, or there's counterplay I'm not taking into account.

Another thing I figure I'd ask is about laser out of the corner as a mixup. It catches my local people off guard a lot so I've used it a ton, but I'm starting to think the risk/reward makes it not very worth given if they read and hit me I'm most likely dead, and the reward is maybe a small amount of space from the corner.




Any help is very appreciated <3

Can you elaborate on forcing yourself to choose totally different options and taking as much space as you could? Sounds like intriguing ideas that I'll have to test out myself.

I've found success setting up lasers in the corner by full hopping, navigating to platform then fall through laser, mixing up between sh dair/bair/laser/nothing and run forward shield then wd back laser.

 

[jedimeister007]

Can you elaborate on forcing yourself to choose totally different options and taking as much space as you could? Sounds like intriguing ideas that I'll have to test out myself.

what I mean is, let's say I'm in the corner and a Fox is pressuring me and I want to throw out a defensive dair, I'll instead run up and shield or wd forward just to mix up the interaction and see what happens. Another example is if I want to roll away and get space, I'll FH or jab to hold the space better and just feel out how other options work. I guess the overall idea is pick an opposite option to what I'm used to/have a habit of using so instead of rolling or shielding I attack, instead of running away I get closer and instead of attacking I dashdance in place and wait a bit. Hope that makes a bit more sense

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

what I mean is, let's say I'm in the corner and a Fox is pressuring me and I want to throw out a defensive dair, I'll instead run up and shield or wd forward just to mix up the interaction and see what happens. Another example is if I want to roll away and get space, I'll FH or jab to hold the space better and just feel out how other options work. I guess the overall idea is pick an opposite option to what I'm used to/have a habit of using so instead of rolling or shielding I attack, instead of running away I get closer and instead of attacking I dashdance in place and wait a bit. Hope that makes a bit more sense

Sorry I should have elaborated, I know what you mean by choosing different options and taking space whenever you can. I'm more interested in what you learned and got out of the process.

 

[jedimeister007]

Sorry I should have elaborated, I know what you mean by choosing different options and taking space whenever you can. I'm more interested in what you learned and got out of the process.

oh I see what you mean. This is sort of a new development so I haven't fully gone through the process, but I'm starting to see more places where I can take risks, and how playing defensive isn't the best option every time. It's also making me think more dynamically about situations and how many options I actually have as opposed to just choosing what will probably work and what's low risk.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I've made a pretty major shift in my gameplan and mentality and have some questions, but lemme try explaining my recent changes and my thought process first. I've always seen myself as a super defensive Falco who uses tons of lasers and likes to take few risks, and generally prefers space and safety over control or gambles, but I have seen some flaws in that mindset. The main flaw I have is that I constantly miss opportunities, I prolong kills trying to be safe, etc. and it really feels like it stopped my growth in decision making and execution. So recently I tried playing laserless which helped me feel slightly more comfortable approaching, but I still don't think it's going to help me break any habits or grow as a whole.

With that said, I had a few other ideas to really push the notion of being confident in any style of play and also just had some other general questions.

First idea I had was forcing myself to choose a totally different option from what I normally would do (ex, if I'm in a corner and want to roll or shield, I jab or FH, if I want to shoot a laser I dashdance or run in, etc.) just to get a feel for what a different choice in a situation would look like.

another idea I had was just always trying to take as much space as I could even if it meant getting hit so I can learn my limits, or forcing interactions where I take unreactable risks.

But on the topic of approaching, as a general question how good is run up shield? More specifically vs Fox, but I'm more curious about it as a whole concept. I never have explored shielding very much in my career given that most players I play can't really punish rolling so i kinda spam it (lol), but now I'm very torn about how good it is. It seems solid to run up shield and either shine OoS if they do an aerial or something, or WD back if they don't do anything, but I think there are still applications I'm missing, or there's counterplay I'm not taking into account.

Another thing I figure I'd ask is about laser out of the corner as a mixup. It catches my local people off guard a lot so I've used it a ton, but I'm starting to think the risk/reward makes it not very worth given if they read and hit me I'm most likely dead, and the reward is maybe a small amount of space from the corner.




Any help is very appreciated <3

It seems like you'd benefit from first identifying exactly where you're missing opportunities and make changes there, instead of just hoping that going in at some time that feels right will work out. So for prolonging kills, what should you do to get those kills, and what are you doing instead? Get as specific as you can, because that gives you something to practice and apply in matches directly. Granted, I do think just trying to overall change up your style is still good, but specifics can help you get there better.

Run up shield isn't too bad vs Fox because Fox often has to throw out a Bair/Nair/Utilt as you go in and that can sometimes lead to a shine OOS as you said, or get you more stage even if you back up. Vs other characters that might space larger attacks than Fox has when you come in, regardless how you do it, then it might not be so good. It's something to experiment with if you're curious, but that's how it has felt to me.

Doing a lunging laser out of the corner is a pretty big risk, but the payoff can be great too. I think slight laser forward or just lasering in place to regain laser control can do great at giving you an advantage to use to get out of the corner.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Use side platform lasers to hit her typical float height, and then use runoff laser to hit her as she falls. If she falls pre-emptively then you could just land back on the ground with laser, or SH at her(mixing drift back laser etc) or do SHLs on the side platform that can mix with lasering off the platform. Top platform I haven't looked into so much but just don't overdo coming off with Bair since Peaches all look for that.

You can dash FH shine/Nair/Dair/Fair it, or FH Bair it. You can stay turned around and force him to drift back to avoid Bair/Utilt and then back up a little and laser if you want.

Your desire to win overrides any fear of failure. It can make losing harder to handle yes, but the more you accept losing, the easier losing becomes, and then it never gets a chance to overtake the desire to win. This amplifies your winning desire in all moments, including difficult ones.

I'd have either gone for pressure, an aerial crossup, or a grab(unlikely). I may also have done a dash back to see if I could hit him trying to come OOS. I'd only Uthrow or maybe Dthrow at such a low percent because otherwise it feels like Falcon can act first and has advantage. You're not likely to get a followup on either of those throws, but with Uthrow sometimes they could jump away or you could shine their platform land.

If you mean full momentum dash SH in, then it's usually better to aerial than laser against Falcon, and in general. But yeah as you said it can beat certain options and you have a bit of time as you start the SH to see what they're doing. And yeah I like getting fairly close to Falcon so he can't Nair to outspace my moves and then weave around that space to keep pressure high on him.

Understanding positions better, testing out options, and generally improving the skill of visualization will all come together the more you do it. I'm glad it's helping you.

So should the majority out my gameplan revolve around setting up lasers on the side plat against a floating peach? What happens if they start to read me navigating to the side plat? Should I be going to the side plat preemptively or only in reaction to - and when I have enough time without getting hit - when they go into float?

Is there anyway to practice accepting losing?

I have a weird problem that I've had with melee for a long while now. I go through very predictable patterns of enjoying melee and actively pursuing it and then going through a period of not taking the game seriously at all. The times when I don't take it seriously are about up to three weeks but thankfully the times I do enjoy studying/playing/practicing tend to be at least twice as long. The most frustrating part about when I'm not playing is that melee is the only thing I can think about but for some suuuuper frustrating reason I don't practice. This creates an even more aggravating loop of wanting to practice and put time into the game but just not doing it for some reason. In these times of frustration I think of a Syrox quote where he talks about the most important times to keep pushing are when you don't want to, but then I beat myself up for not practicing even though I want to anyway.

The next period of not playing isn't gonna come for a while I don't think, but I want to know what to do before it happens. I think this has something to do with having super high standards for myself the more I immerse myself in the process and the game, which in turn takes me out of the game because I'm only focused on performing well rather than practicing well. I guess I kind of just answered my own question, and it seems like this problem stems back to accepting loss or whatnot, but I feel like it's something I had to share anyway even if you wrote a lot about it in your post to MegaXmas.

 

[Kotastic]

Is there anyway to practice accepting losing?

Lurker around these parts, but I believe I can help out with this one. PP offered visualization practice that I incorporated daily meditation sessions and exercise sessions that transformed how I viewed losing after like a month of practicing this. I have this in my compilation of mentality advice PP has given throughout the months

"WHY do we get sad when we lose, or angry when we make mistakes? It's because we care a lot in part. No matter how healthy your outlook is, you can and for some time will experience at least sadness if not also anger after a difficult loss. When you put so much on the line to compete, and then you get told it's not enough, that's always going to be really hard to handle. However there are extra things we ALSO can put on this result of "I lost" that make it worse. In itself "I lost" is just a thing that happened. What meaning we give it is what determines our emotional reaction. Do we say "I lost, which means I'm not good enough as a person like I always knew?" Could we not also say "I lost, and I thought I could do better so I'm sad, but I know I can overcome this by working harder and trusting myself?" The only difference, ultimately, is what you choose to say to this result that inherently has no meaning. And it IS a choice, but it can be really difficult to change. We often are accustomed to thinking certain ways from an early age, and this is reinforced by parents, peers, society. We have to consciously decide how we want to handle difficulties and how to grow and create our own best selves, which involves being different. It's why successful people are often so weird, they have to think differently.

This leads me back to what I normally say. If you want to change your thinking, you train it. Daily. You put yourself in that situation where you lost to this Falco player and freaked out and started getting down on yourself as it happened and afterward and you remember what you thought when you got challenged. And you did think something that put you into that state. You want to change it to something healthy and powerful. And if you don't believe it, and you struggle to convince yourself it's right even after substituting it in your mind, then use your body. Affirm it out loud and while doing pushups, or while running, or while in a yoga pose. Physical work does help engage your mind and create more powerful connections, so I wouldn't dismiss this.

Equally, if not most importantly, this is about caring enough to change it. Not just after losing, but in a consistent way. You have to REALLY WANT IT to make these changes because that's the only way it'll stick. If you don't, then everything I just said is worthless. It's up to you."

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXip_TlcbWbr5wvNngkDbqsxOl25kAcyUut-zE-MJOs/edit?usp=sharing

I can tell you after that, visualizing my losses and correcting my thinking on the more productive way to accept losses, virtually all my losses afterwards I reacted in a productive manner, even the painful ones.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So should the majority out my gameplan revolve around setting up lasers on the side plat against a floating peach? What happens if they start to read me navigating to the side plat? Should I be going to the side plat preemptively or only in reaction to - and when I have enough time without getting hit - when they go into float?

Is there anyway to practice accepting losing?

I have a weird problem that I've had with melee for a long while now. I go through very predictable patterns of enjoying melee and actively pursuing it and then going through a period of not taking the game seriously at all. The times when I don't take it seriously are about up to three weeks but thankfully the times I do enjoy studying/playing/practicing tend to be at least twice as long. The most frustrating part about when I'm not playing is that melee is the only thing I can think about but for some suuuuper frustrating reason I don't practice. This creates an even more aggravating loop of wanting to practice and put time into the game but just not doing it for some reason. In these times of frustration I think of a Syrox quote where he talks about the most important times to keep pushing are when you don't want to, but then I beat myself up for not practicing even though I want to anyway.

The next period of not playing isn't gonna come for a while I don't think, but I want to know what to do before it happens. I think this has something to do with having super high standards for myself the more I immerse myself in the process and the game, which in turn takes me out of the game because I'm only focused on performing well rather than practicing well. I guess I kind of just answered my own question, and it seems like this problem stems back to accepting loss or whatnot, but I feel like it's something I had to share anyway even if you wrote a lot about it in your post to MegaXmas.

Yeah side platform lasers are the main play and then you mix with grounded play from there. If Peach tries to intercept you early, you can just run and hit her instead or wait out her FH'ing and maybe using an aerial and then hit her. This will partly depend on spacing, but it's pretty quick tests. Going to side preemptively is fine but you can also do it on reaction.

It's a bit difficult to address the rest without you giving me any specifics. What happens when you want to stop? Do you have a bad loss? Do you get burnt out? Do you no longer enjoy the game?

At any rate, it's fine to have goals and high standards. It's about enjoying the process the whole time, and finding that light in dark times. Regardless, I do hope you don't obsess over this too much, as that could take away valuable focus over the good times you have with the game in front of you right now.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yeah side platform lasers are the main play and then you mix with grounded play from there. If Peach tries to intercept you early, you can just run and hit her instead or wait out her FH'ing and maybe using an aerial and then hit her. This will partly depend on spacing, but it's pretty quick tests. Going to side preemptively is fine but you can also do it on reaction.

It's a bit difficult to address the rest without you giving me any specifics. What happens when you want to stop? Do you have a bad loss? Do you get burnt out? Do you no longer enjoy the game?

At any rate, it's fine to have goals and high standards. It's about enjoying the process the whole time, and finding that light in dark times. Regardless, I do hope you don't obsess over this too much, as that could take away valuable focus over the good times you have with the game in front of you right now.

I guess the best way I can describe it is wanting to practice when I’m not practicing but then not really being into it when I do. I’m not sure there’s a huge trigger for it or anything but it’s more seems like an accumulation of thoughts and emotions about the game that builds up over time and eventually makes me not like practicing even though I want to.

I have a tourney tonight and then another one tomorrow, these will be my first events in a long time. Stamina seems to be a pretty big problem for me, especially for these night tournies. Do you have any simple recommendations for dealing with it? There’s about 40 to 50 people in the bracket and I’m like 5th seed so i have confidence I’m gonna make it pretty far and then end up fighting the hardest opponents the more tired I am. I’ve been meditating a few times a day and running about once every other day in preparation.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Lurker around these parts, but I believe I can help out with this one. PP offered visualization practice that I incorporated daily meditation sessions and exercise sessions that transformed how I viewed losing after like a month of practicing this. I have this in my compilation of mentality advice PP has given throughout the months

"WHY do we get sad when we lose, or angry when we make mistakes? It's because we care a lot in part. No matter how healthy your outlook is, you can and for some time will experience at least sadness if not also anger after a difficult loss. When you put so much on the line to compete, and then you get told it's not enough, that's always going to be really hard to handle. However there are extra things we ALSO can put on this result of "I lost" that make it worse. In itself "I lost" is just a thing that happened. What meaning we give it is what determines our emotional reaction. Do we say "I lost, which means I'm not good enough as a person like I always knew?" Could we not also say "I lost, and I thought I could do better so I'm sad, but I know I can overcome this by working harder and trusting myself?" The only difference, ultimately, is what you choose to say to this result that inherently has no meaning. And it IS a choice, but it can be really difficult to change. We often are accustomed to thinking certain ways from an early age, and this is reinforced by parents, peers, society. We have to consciously decide how we want to handle difficulties and how to grow and create our own best selves, which involves being different. It's why successful people are often so weird, they have to think differently.

This leads me back to what I normally say. If you want to change your thinking, you train it. Daily. You put yourself in that situation where you lost to this Falco player and freaked out and started getting down on yourself as it happened and afterward and you remember what you thought when you got challenged. And you did think something that put you into that state. You want to change it to something healthy and powerful. And if you don't believe it, and you struggle to convince yourself it's right even after substituting it in your mind, then use your body. Affirm it out loud and while doing pushups, or while running, or while in a yoga pose. Physical work does help engage your mind and create more powerful connections, so I wouldn't dismiss this.

Equally, if not most importantly, this is about caring enough to change it. Not just after losing, but in a consistent way. You have to REALLY WANT IT to make these changes because that's the only way it'll stick. If you don't, then everything I just said is worthless. It's up to you."

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fXip_TlcbWbr5wvNngkDbqsxOl25kAcyUut-zE-MJOs/edit?usp=sharing

I can tell you after that, visualizing my losses and correcting my thinking on the more productive way to accept losses, virtually all my losses afterwards I reacted in a productive manner, even the painful ones.

Thanks man this info resonated with me a lot, Im def gonna try it. Did you try te physical stuff? Or just meditation?

 

[Kotastic]

Both. Meditation twice a day and walking for ~30 minutes every other day.