PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's true that DJ is useful for Falco as an offensive mixup, or even one to just help you gain information and you likely won't die for trying it at low percent unless you overdo it(and even then it would take a particular set of circumstances). This is because on a given jump in, the opponent is usually immediately swinging, moving back, or shielding in response so it would be pretty hard/impossible to punish DJ and cover the jump in in that case. This is also part of why platform fighting is so good for Falco since he can manipulate the opponent into swinging here and then come in and hit them as they react to the new position with his very quick fall speed.

I'm not entirely sure I'd say crouch and DJ are the same despite getting hit out of your DJ definitely being worse at high percent because DJ can be hard to get hit out of at all without a read as I just mentioned. But sure you would probably want to skew toward it less if your opponent appears to be catching on to your usage of it or you would just prefer to survive more stray hits at higher percents.

 

[wendell]

Hey peepee, at https://youtu.be/e1S-k5__Xc8 (1:12)
This nair by mango was “bad” because he was on the ledge and, oc, syrox had so much room to don’t get hit by it. Can you wxplain the yomi of this situation, please? How mango turned something bad in a good based on the previous mix ups? I’m finding hard to understandd. Thanks bro!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mango was by the edge but not on it at 1:12, so I hope this is what you're talking about.

Syrox hit Mango and forced a tech. Most people in that situation will put up shield or do a defensive option out of the tech. Syrox positions himself to counter this with SH, but he reacts to Mango's Nair out of the corner by DJ'ing away. He may have done the DJ anyway to make Mango think he was safe though and then hit him as he dropped shield or whatever as Syrox came back down, but at any rate Mango's unorthodox decision and Syrox perhaps overcomplicating the situation gave Mango the way out.

 

[Teatra]

I wanted to ask.. I was considering Ftilt. I think it's a great move, but I was trying to decide on Upward-angled Ftilt. Does it have a purpose where an Uptilt wouldn't be better? (or another angle of Ftilt???)
This is excluding the edgeguard scenarios when someone (likely a floaty) is jumping upward near-ish your face (not that it's a good move, but still).

Maybe when pressuring someone in the corner.. when they're too tall (like Falcon) to go under it, but it can hit them out of jumps unlike down-angled?

 

[SalaMenace]

Is there any way to mix up recovery when puff back throws you at the ledge? Or can they pretty much cover everything? Feels like there's no escaping bair at that point and dying at low%.

 

[Teatra]

Is there any way to mix up recovery when puff back throws you at the ledge? Or can they pretty much cover everything? Feels like there's no escaping bair at that point and dying at low%.

I don't know if this was an, "I'm asking PPMD-only" question or not, but..
There's a couple ways Falco can mixup his recovery. Puff can and cover everything, but she can't simply react and cover everything. Many will assume an instant double jump, but here's a list of some options you could do aswell.

• Instant Double Jump to ledge
• Instant Double Jump away and Side-B.
• Instant Double Jump away and Up-B.
• Delayed Double Jump to sweetspot
• Delayed Double Jump back to Side-B
• If you're high enough, Double Jump to Side-B onstage.
• Shine Stall to set an odd amount of delay -> Previous Double Jump options, likely sweetspotting or using Side-B
• Immediate Shine Stall turnaround DJ Bair (an odd act of aggression that they may not expect).
• (other "risky" tactics like DJ -> FF Side-B, but again, anything on the edge is on the verge of a losing stock)
  
  There's more than this, but this is all my 4 hour sleepy self could come up with in a minute and a half, I hope it helps. I just want to say that it's usually a matter of timing. Jigglypuff (or anyone) can't react to all of your options, so they tend to make a guess and select a set of common options to try and cover. I think it's best to find a particularly troublesome scenario, look at it and think of how you could get out.

Like, oh, Falco's sort of going slightly past the ledge. He could drift and go almost vertical because Puff isn't very good at covering things at different heights. Because her only real options are Bair/Fair (for most Puffs, sometimes Dash Attack, etc.), she needs to be on top of/horizontal to you to cover your option (which means DJ attack might be an okay mixup! She can't react). If you know that you're going slightly over and under the ledge and she can't get down there fast enough-- Try simply fastfalling and DJ Sweetspotting (this situation is more common at low %, it's just that many Falco's try instantly jumping into the nearest Bair they can find). It'll be hard for her to cover (a sweetspot side-B would work aswell).
Let's say she knocks you further away.. Well, now you have more space for mixups aswell. If you're drifting back towards the stage (can be different and easier to cover if you need your DJ for pure distance) and haven't used your DJ. You can mixup between Up B, fast fall -> Side-B, DJ -> high Side-B, hard to hit angles with Up-B (unless she hits the startup, it's very good and it's hard to react to different slights/unusual angles).

Anyways, that was a bit of a mess because I'm pretty tired, but I hope this helps at all.
I guess, in short, what you were asking for is:

• Timing of DJs, Up-Bs, and Side-Bs.
• Height of DJs, Up-Bs, and Side-Bs.
• Whether you Shine Stall or not, if so, how long?
• Whether you throw out an attack (only really applies to the DJ mixup)
• How the Up-B is angled. Straight to ledge? Straight in? Above and fall to ledge? Above and fall onstage?
• Side-B to a platform???

Falco has a lot of options for mixing up his recovery, think about a specific situation and see what you can come up with!

 

[SalaMenace]

I appreciate the response. However from my experience, I'm usually sent too far offstage horizontally to dj sweetspot to ledge (maybe I need to DI the throw better?), and shine stalling has never worked, since it just gives them more time to react to my position and restricts my angles of recovery even more. If I up B then they can just jump out and hit me on reaction. And side B is usually covered through their initial positioning, and jumping back/away doesn't seem to make this any better.

Like I understand that falco has a lot of options. it just feels like all of his options can be covered. I was wondering if there's anything you can do to maybe force a 50/50 at least by using 2 different recovery options that somehow puff wouldn't be able to cover both?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I wanted to ask.. I was considering Ftilt. I think it's a great move, but I was trying to decide on Upward-angled Ftilt. Does it have a purpose where an Uptilt wouldn't be better? (or another angle of Ftilt???)
This is excluding the edgeguard scenarios when someone (likely a floaty) is jumping upward near-ish your face (not that it's a good move, but still).

Maybe when pressuring someone in the corner.. when they're too tall (like Falcon) to go under it, but it can hit them out of jumps unlike down-angled?

I thought about it some, and I think I only used up angled Ftilt vs Peaches coming out of float, Puffs that come down into it from high up, and when I need to hit Sheik's SH quickly. That would be all I'd list since you mentioned no edgeguard stuff.

I appreciate the response. However from my experience, I'm usually sent too far offstage horizontally to dj sweetspot to ledge (maybe I need to DI the throw better?), and shine stalling has never worked, since it just gives them more time to react to my position and restricts my angles of recovery even more. If I up B then they can just jump out and hit me on reaction. And side B is usually covered through their initial positioning, and jumping back/away doesn't seem to make this any better.

Like I understand that falco has a lot of options. it just feels like all of his options can be covered. I was wondering if there's anything you can do to maybe force a 50/50 at least by using 2 different recovery options that somehow puff wouldn't be able to cover both?

Holding in should help you make it to the edge with DJ more often, especially at low percent iirc. Also do you vary how long you shine stall or even when you start the stall, or do you just do it right away and hold it for a while?

All of the options can be covered, but not at once. Is there anything the Puff specifically does to make things harder for you? That might be a good place to start.

Obviously yes it is a pretty rough position but it is playable usually(sometimes not so much at higher percents).

 

[Teatra]

I thought about it some, and I think I only used up angled Ftilt vs Peaches coming out of float, Puffs that come down into it from high up, and when I need to hit Sheik's SH quickly. That would be all I'd list since you mentioned no edgeguard stuff.

I see. I ask because I was considering making pivot upward-Ftilt notches. The input is a lot of work because it's a somewhat unnatural input and is a bit more precise than the downward angled variant.

I think that it's probably not worth the effort. What a shame.

Also, thanks.

 

[Sir_Slice]

I'm having trouble understanding the inputs for falco shield pressure. Should I fastfall before I input an aerial, at the same time as I input an aerial, or during shield stun?

 

[Smog]

I'm having trouble understanding the inputs for falco shield pressure. Should I fastfall before I input an aerial, at the same time as I input an aerial, or during shield stun?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it depends more on when you hit their shield. The goal is always to hit the shield as close to the ground as possible, unless they are always grabbing you before your aerial comes out or something

Let's say you shnair shine someone's shield, but you wait till the last second for your nair to come out before you hit the ground. You don't even need to fastfall because you hit their shield so late that they stay in shield stun long enough for you to shine. Although you should be holding down as soon as you aerial in preparation for the shine, unless you do some mix up because they always hold shield or something.

Or the other end where you shnair way before you are even close to their shield, you want to fastfall after your nair comes out so that you can hit their shield close to the ground so shine can come out safely.

The only time I can think of fast falling before the aerial comes out is if you are way above them and are coming down. Then you have time to fastfall, and for the aerial to come out after. If you short hop, I don't think it is possible to fastfall and then have an aerial come out.

You want to mix up your aerial timings because if you always do a late aerial they can grab/attack you before you aerial comes out. If you always do an early one, you are committed to it. For example, if you nair early and they wavedash forward just a tiny bit, then you will hit their shield earlier than you expect and possibly get punished for it.

edit: Oh also I've seen mango use laser shine a lot, and I've seen pp do it in the middle of shield pressure. So that's always an option I think. You fastfall for whatever laser height you think will work based on how they have been dealing with your approaches.

 

[Teatra]

I didn't actually read this entire post because I'm watching something I want to pay attention to, but the goal isn't always to touch the ground as soon as possible after hitting their shield. When performing shield pressure, you're hoping they'll try to escape and get hit in the process.
Throughout the process of playing someone, you should be trying to learn how they like to avoid shield pressure (there's usually common patterns at lower levels: just grabbing, just rolling, etc.)

If you know that they'll try to avoid your attack, they'll be dropping their shield. That's when an early aerial is more beneficial because it can catch them. The downside is that it's grabbable. It requires a fast reaction/most people won't grab it if it was mixed in-between other shield pressure timings. If you think they'll hold shield, you want to have a late aerial that will allow you to use Shine (in a true block-string) and reset the situation.

Mixing up your timings is crucial, but there's more than that. The side of shield pressure is important aswell. If you're behind them, they can't grab you, no? Now, what if you do an early aerial that begs them to grab you... but cross them up? Now they might've put their shield down and are vulnerable to a punish! It gets more complex from here. Aerial -> Shine looping is not the only type of shield pressure.

 

[Yort]

You don't start with shadowboxing. You start with basic tech. Wavedashes over and over, lasers over and over, etc. You get a better feel for the tools(their properties) and think of their effects on opponents. Then you begin putting them together in ways that combine these properties so you can cover options. You practice these combinations. This is about where shadowboxing begins. But yes absolutely, continue practicing with slight timing and spacing differences too, those just aren't the main priority to me, as you can adjust as you begin thinking more deeply about the tools later.

I think analyzing everything is fine, that's what I did. If you don't feel you're learning then you'd need to adjust, but otherwise it's fine.

I haven't played Hbox in a while so I'm not sure, but I did fight against Puff the other day and I found FD good if I could hit edgeguards, and FoD good if I could maintain control. BF seemed harder to control but I could also get more explosive outcomes like kills off the top, so maybe if I was playing well I'd pick BF.

What are some ways to edgeguard puff who’s recovering from high and drifting to ledge? How / when do you fsmash their drift in to ledge? I always end up whiffing / miss timing lol

What about puffs who are below the stage and they’ve used a few jumps? Do you think fsmash / dsmash as they jump into the ledge would still work here vs puffs?

What things should I look for to hit her in the right timings. I always try bair / fsmash / dsmash but they dodge them etc

How did you get so good at juggling when puff / peach are above you? After an upthrow and you can’t get a follow up and she’s lower percent in particular. Are you paying close attention to things like how many jumps she has left and how she responds to dashes on the ground etc to read her drift? How often are you generally prioritizing pressuring her landing versus hitting her directly out of the air / further into the air with bair?

How do you recommend practicing it?

What’s the main goal with juggling?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm having trouble understanding the inputs for falco shield pressure. Should I fastfall before I input an aerial, at the same time as I input an aerial, or during shield stun?

I believe you want to do it before the aerial.

What are some ways to edgeguard puff who’s recovering from high and drifting to ledge? How / when do you fsmash their drift in to ledge? I always end up whiffing / miss timing lol

What about puffs who are below the stage and they’ve used a few jumps? Do you think fsmash / dsmash as they jump into the ledge would still work here vs puffs?

What things should I look for to hit her in the right timings. I always try bair / fsmash / dsmash but they dodge them etc

How did you get so good at juggling when puff / peach are above you? After an upthrow and you can’t get a follow up and she’s lower percent in particular. Are you paying close attention to things like how many jumps she has left and how she responds to dashes on the ground etc to read her drift? How often are you generally prioritizing pressuring her landing versus hitting her directly out of the air / further into the air with bair?

How do you recommend practicing it?

What’s the main goal with juggling?

Hello Yort, I'm liking your progress =)

So you mean they are committing to the edge or just moving toward it? I like faking Bair so they don't try to go over me and then they either have to go for me or edge. Sometimes I drift farther out if they do with SH and DJ Bair them but that doesn't always work. Fsmash is great just as they weave away before they come back in to grab the edge. You probably Fsmash too early, and it's something simple practice can help you with. Her slowly falling into your range doesn't always mean you can hit her when she gets kind of close. It's weird. I like committing to Fsmash if I've punished her going high/coming into me more or I just have a really good reaction while threatening Bair. It is hard to get Fsmash to connect without a read in that position I think, but it helps to count her jumps and watch her weave since Puffs have predictable patterns that you can manipulate. Ftilt is really easy to hit with reactions on her going to edge, and this is something not to ignore I think. This will help you burn through her jumps and reset the situation quickly so you can start getting those killing Dairs much more easily. Sometimes you can Dair her going into you or trying to go high if she has more jumps, but this isn't always so reliable. Not sure how much more useful info I can offer without specific situation stuff.

If they're spacing the edge grab or they're close to the edge and not teching then yes absolutely. Walk slightly Dsmash can be very surprising for Puffs. Most Puffs don't seem to tech all that much so that is something you can play around with. I prefer Dair since it's safer if she techs but Dair is harder to hit, especially on spaced edge grabs unless you commit to going offstage and falling with it or running off then rising with it.

You'll have to be more specific about the dodges. You may be swinging too early, not manipulating her, swinging right when she gets into range, not counting her jumps, staying still too much so you get manipulated by her....so I don't know what the issue is. Maybe a video example can help unless you can give specifics.

I generally want to hit Puff out of the air and with Peach it can be either way, though out of the air is preferable since she loses options and is less able to contest me(Bair) when airborne. It's mainly about working my Bair, and if I dash forward I can always pivot SH/FH/DJ Bair out of it which is important. I can also WD and jump and Bair, which Mango used a lot at Summit and got him a lot of kills on DI away as the floaty tries to drift away. So then the floaty may come into you, which he used Usmash/Dtilt to hit and kill.
Anyway, you have to know what you can reach with in a given situation and if it's reactable/punishable. So if your pivot FH/DJ Bair is punishable or can be easily dodged, you either want to fake it or wait it out and just settle for positioning/manipulation. Manipulation can change how reactable things are, as can your own movement. Anyway yes if you make Peach float and you make her drift one way, it'll be pretty hard for her to do much else with that float. If you make Puff use 2-3 jumps it's a relatively similar story. You just need to stay in range and threaten Bair but be ready for them to move full away or come into you, and to keep moving as they move, or trying to head them off safely etc. Utilt helps a lot if they move into you, so over-DD is not necessarily the answer. Just dash some....hard to explain I guess.

You can practice it as a floaty on one end and see how you get down and then think of that. You need to learn your ranges and both sides' options first. Once you do that, then you can begin doing a type of shadowboxing where you play the options out and see if you could cover things. This is different from neutral shadowboxing because you can cover most things and in some cases everything with practice but it takes work. Be okay with using platforms.

The goal of juggling is to burn their options and hit them, or to hit them because they didn't want to let their options burn. Ideally you also want to force them away from top platforms and toward one side of the stage so they can't go over you and have a narrower mixup range as a result. This sort of transitions it into an edgeguard scenario, which means you can start thinking of getting spikes longer-term from this position, which is pretty good.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hi PP,

I recently went to my first tourney in a few months, and I have a ton of thoughts/questions on it. Forgive me if I ramble.

Going into the tournament, I had practiced through analysis mostly, with shadowboxing, and other non-deliberate movement practice, oh and of course practicing deepening my connection to dash back, dash forward, laser in place, and wd back. In my first match I immediately noticed that I was always in analysis mode while playing and suffered from extreme analysis paralysis against a Peach with no warm up. How do I avoid this without having any tourney experience/practice. Can I practice being in "tourney" mode even though I have no opponents to practice against? The analysis paralysis really felt like I didn't trust myself and it made the game less fun and I def played worse when I was in that mode (which was like 85% of my time playing in tourney).

I edged him out last stock high percent and felt really bad about the way I played. He is a much worse player than me (not sure how I feel about labeling my opponents as better or worse than me) but I'm also trying to focus on evaluating how I play based not on winning or losing but on the content of my play. I'm having an extremely difficult time with this, and I feel like since I go to a college where I am much better than everyone else it's easy to leave those tournies happy even if I play poorly because I won. So how do I connect my satisfaction with my quality of play rather than the outcome of the game? It's hard for me to separate a win from playing well and a loss from playing bad.

I talked to a lot of the good players there and they said that if you have no one to play then grinding combo game is the way to go. Since I don't feel great about the way I performed at that tourney I can't help but think that they're right. Punish game seems to be a much more direct and easily recognizable way of improvement than analysis/shadowboxing.

I might be thinking this because this tourney was the first time I was able to play against people in a while so it was also the first time I was able to use dash back/dash forward/laser in place/wd back. I'm not sure how to describe what happened when I used them, but I guess when I tried them I felt the connection that I had built, and the next thing to do was came to me, but I just didn't do it. This was super frustrating, and I think it goes back to not trusting myself and my instincts.

I specifically remember the few times that I tried to play with confidence/for fun/trust myself as much as possible. Every interaction that I won felt weird to win, it was like I didn't expect my opponent to react in a way I'll expect them to. Losing interactions

I think my overanalysis in game came from a fear that if I play just for the sake of playing then I won't learn as much as I can from each and every interaction. But obviously if I overanalyze then I don't have the mental resources to actually play the game. Should I draw a middle line during friendlies?

I strive to win every interaction and get a huge opening. This makes me super predictable and go for options that I know are bad but I still do them. Then when I lose an interaction I feel frusturated at myself for losing the interaction and for being greedy in the first place. This sometimes causes a cycle of tilt and aggressiveness in game which is super hard for me to stop. This is something I do at the start of every friendlies session/tourney match until I realize I'm doing it. But a lot of the time I don't realize or the process happens as I mentioned above. This is a super frusturating problem for me because even though I know I do it now I still do it despite that.

I have a feeling all of these things are connected into something much deeper but I'm not sure what that is. These are all things I've thought of for a long time and have meditated on before but still can't seem to come up with an answer. I could have added more detail but I didn't want to overdue it because the extra details felt like they took away from my questions rather than adding to them because they made my questions less to the point.

thanks!

 

[SalaMenace]

Does anyone have any clips of Falco overshooting aerials effectively? This is a concept I can't seem to comprehend. When I try to do this, they just keep running farther backwards, and since Falco has slow movement speed, I still get putspaced and punished. Or they just don't run backwards and throw out a hitbox and I get hit.

Is there anything I'm supposed to be looking for when overshooting an aerial? It it just predicting that they will run backwards? It seems like such a risky thing to me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi PP,

I recently went to my first tourney in a few months, and I have a ton of thoughts/questions on it. Forgive me if I ramble.

Going into the tournament, I had practiced through analysis mostly, with shadowboxing, and other non-deliberate movement practice, oh and of course practicing deepening my connection to dash back, dash forward, laser in place, and wd back. In my first match I immediately noticed that I was always in analysis mode while playing and suffered from extreme analysis paralysis against a Peach with no warm up. How do I avoid this without having any tourney experience/practice. Can I practice being in "tourney" mode even though I have no opponents to practice against? The analysis paralysis really felt like I didn't trust myself and it made the game less fun and I def played worse when I was in that mode (which was like 85% of my time playing in tourney).

I edged him out last stock high percent and felt really bad about the way I played. He is a much worse player than me (not sure how I feel about labeling my opponents as better or worse than me) but I'm also trying to focus on evaluating how I play based not on winning or losing but on the content of my play. I'm having an extremely difficult time with this, and I feel like since I go to a college where I am much better than everyone else it's easy to leave those tournies happy even if I play poorly because I won. So how do I connect my satisfaction with my quality of play rather than the outcome of the game? It's hard for me to separate a win from playing well and a loss from playing bad.

I talked to a lot of the good players there and they said that if you have no one to play then grinding combo game is the way to go. Since I don't feel great about the way I performed at that tourney I can't help but think that they're right. Punish game seems to be a much more direct and easily recognizable way of improvement than analysis/shadowboxing.

I might be thinking this because this tourney was the first time I was able to play against people in a while so it was also the first time I was able to use dash back/dash forward/laser in place/wd back. I'm not sure how to describe what happened when I used them, but I guess when I tried them I felt the connection that I had built, and the next thing to do was came to me, but I just didn't do it. This was super frustrating, and I think it goes back to not trusting myself and my instincts.

I specifically remember the few times that I tried to play with confidence/for fun/trust myself as much as possible. Every interaction that I won felt weird to win, it was like I didn't expect my opponent to react in a way I'll expect them to. Losing interactions

I think my overanalysis in game came from a fear that if I play just for the sake of playing then I won't learn as much as I can from each and every interaction. But obviously if I overanalyze then I don't have the mental resources to actually play the game. Should I draw a middle line during friendlies?

I strive to win every interaction and get a huge opening. This makes me super predictable and go for options that I know are bad but I still do them. Then when I lose an interaction I feel frusturated at myself for losing the interaction and for being greedy in the first place. This sometimes causes a cycle of tilt and aggressiveness in game which is super hard for me to stop. This is something I do at the start of every friendlies session/tourney match until I realize I'm doing it. But a lot of the time I don't realize or the process happens as I mentioned above. This is a super frusturating problem for me because even though I know I do it now I still do it despite that.

I have a feeling all of these things are connected into something much deeper but I'm not sure what that is. These are all things I've thought of for a long time and have meditated on before but still can't seem to come up with an answer. I could have added more detail but I didn't want to overdue it because the extra details felt like they took away from my questions rather than adding to them because they made my questions less to the point.

thanks!

Hm yeah this is a pretty important issue.

For overanalysis, you want to eventually be just playing and not thinking so much. You have to trust your training. This doesn't mean you don't adapt as you were concerned about, but it means trusting your built-in adaptations in movement to come out when needed. So if you didn't practice that, then it would be another issue. That said, I'm glad you felt your connection to your tools. What happened after that is confusing to me so I hope you re-explain it.

Part of shadowboxing is pretending it is tournament and it's a very fierce match in which you have to adapt all of the time. It should result in you adapting much faster than you'd need to in tourney usually.

I agree that grinding punish game is much more straightforward and leads to much better returns on investment. If you'd prefer to focus there that's fine, and of course you'll be integrating it with your neutral game which is also good. I just wouldn't neglect neutral entirely since that is still pretty important.

In friendlies, you generally want to mix between playing to learn and playing to win. Learning is not caring about the result and trying to understand why things happen such as why you got hit. Winning is trying to put all of these new theories together and build your will to win. Eventually, you build that playing to learn relaxing muscle and that helps you adapt even while playing to win, but it takes time and trust in yourself. I know you're still working on this trust and I would suggest perhaps tackling this outside of Melee in some deeper meditative/psychological sense if you feel stuck.

Does this help?

Does anyone have any clips of Falco overshooting aerials effectively? This is a concept I can't seem to comprehend. When I try to do this, they just keep running farther backwards, and since Falco has slow movement speed, I still get putspaced and punished. Or they just don't run backwards and throw out a hitbox and I get hit.

Is there anything I'm supposed to be looking for when overshooting an aerial? It it just predicting that they will run backwards? It seems like such a risky thing to me.

I don't have any clips, but you may be very slightly overshooting from too far away. Generally overshooting is done relatively close to the opponent so you can hit them if they move back and also if they shield. You might be attacking from too far away, or you might be doing it too long after you lasered so they get extra time to move farther away. Maybe you can see if that helps.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Hm yeah this is a pretty important issue.

For overanalysis, you want to eventually be just playing and not thinking so much. You have to trust your training. This doesn't mean you don't adapt as you were concerned about, but it means trusting your built-in adaptations in movement to come out when needed. So if you didn't practice that, then it would be another issue. That said, I'm glad you felt your connection to your tools. What happened after that is confusing to me so I hope you re-explain it.

Part of shadowboxing is pretending it is tournament and it's a very fierce match in which you have to adapt all of the time. It should result in you adapting much faster than you'd need to in tourney usually.

I agree that grinding punish game is much more straightforward and leads to much better returns on investment. If you'd prefer to focus there that's fine, and of course you'll be integrating it with your neutral game which is also good. I just wouldn't neglect neutral entirely since that is still pretty important.

In friendlies, you generally want to mix between playing to learn and playing to win. Learning is not caring about the result and trying to understand why things happen such as why you got hit. Winning is trying to put all of these new theories together and build your will to win. Eventually, you build that playing to learn relaxing muscle and that helps you adapt even while playing to win, but it takes time and trust in yourself. I know you're still working on this trust and I would suggest perhaps tackling this outside of Melee in some deeper meditative/psychological sense if you feel stuck.

Does this help?

Yes it does help, thanks.

How do you practice trusting your built-in adaptations? Is that the part where you pretend you're in tournament?

It's funny that you mention adapting faster than you need to because that's another point I thought of while playing in tourney. Specifically against my round 1 peach, I was afraid of overadapting. And of course in my overanalysis mode I began to ask a lot of questions such as "is overadapting bad?" "when can it be good?" "What's the difference between overadapting and using a different mixup in the same situation?" "How does one overadapt?" If you could answer any of those that would be appreciated. These thoughts came about because I found that I won a few neutral interactions in a row against the peach by shooting one laser at Falco's shffl range, then go in immediately with a sh high nair or dair. I wouldn't mixup the timing of my approach or spacing or anything, but it still worked. This went in confliction with the mindset I normally take at school playing against people much worse than me. Normally I try to think of "What would have happened in my opponent had done this instead of this?" And then I try to adapt to that theoretical option. But in tourney I tried to force myself to use the same option because it was working anyway. This felt really awkward because I think my natural tendency was to mixup what I was doing slightly, and maybe I was but I still got him waaay more than I should be allowed to with that simple option.

What happened after I would dash back/laser in place/dash forward felt like I was resisting my own intuition. The feeling of what to do next would come to me but I felt unconfident and instead picked what tended to be a hyper defensive or hyper aggressive option instead. I think this was my brain overcompensating for not trusting myself which also meant that I would act later and not in the flow of the match. I know that you can play in the flow of the match by waiting a beat or two or purposefully playing off of the established tempo but these options felt forced and unnatural.

I'm conflicted between punish and neutral because neutral is much more fun to learn about and analyze and also seems more rewarding, but yeah punish seems more direct way of improvement. I guess it's just about finding the right ratio, which I'm not too sure how to do, lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes pretending you're in tournament does help with that.

By overadapt, do you mean predicting they do something steps ahead of what they do? Well that's alright, so what if you're wrong? You're wrong. The end. Then you go to the next stock or next situation and you now have important information. The worst thing you can do is not use the information you get. Never trying to get it might be the only thing on par with that lol. In a practical sense, people fall into patterns pretty reliably, even top players(including me)! It just requires deeper situational knowledge. However, you can start anywhere. In the beginning of a match you're feeling out things and you'll never know things for sure, but you can gain information. For example, if you laser then dash in then wait, you now get to see what they would do. Did they think you'd rush in and they swung or moved, or were they ready to shield and deal with what came next? Either way you've now identified important responses you can use later. As you learn more you begin building and conditioning likely responses. Reading the rest of this paragraph, it just looks like the opponent may not have adapted much but you like doing that. Yes that's a fair concern, but in tournament you need to do what works. As you progress through the bracket or play stronger and stronger players you'll see more adaptation. In a way, these players who do the same things a lot help us remember that we need to trust in our ideas and not overcomplicate things because that can happen a lot as we add complexity to our game. So I hope you can start looking forward to playing them and building in your own mixups when needed, such as different ways to punish their similar timings, that allow you to still express yourself and be comfortable with playing them. Your problem is actually a pretty good one because your natural inclination is to adjust but you're struggling with people doing the same thing a lot, so that tendency will help you a lot as you play others. Just figured I should reiterate that and I think you'll be alright if you keep working on this.

Neutral and punish will be higher priorities at different times. You may be working on more punish for a while, then go back to neutral to find better ways of setting up these new punishes you want, then return to punish for more variations....etc. So just starting and then trusting yourself to adjust when it's time is probably best.

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

Yes pretending you're in tournament does help with that.

By overadapt, do you mean predicting they do something steps ahead of what they do? Well that's alright, so what if you're wrong? You're wrong. The end. Then you go to the next stock or next situation and you now have important information. The worst thing you can do is not use the information you get. Never trying to get it might be the only thing on par with that lol. In a practical sense, people fall into patterns pretty reliably, even top players(including me)! It just requires deeper situational knowledge. However, you can start anywhere. In the beginning of a match you're feeling out things and you'll never know things for sure, but you can gain information. For example, if you laser then dash in then wait, you now get to see what they would do. Did they think you'd rush in and they swung or moved, or were they ready to shield and deal with what came next? Either way you've now identified important responses you can use later. As you learn more you begin building and conditioning likely responses. Reading the rest of this paragraph, it just looks like the opponent may not have adapted much but you like doing that. Yes that's a fair concern, but in tournament you need to do what works. As you progress through the bracket or play stronger and stronger players you'll see more adaptation. In a way, these players who do the same things a lot help us remember that we need to trust in our ideas and not overcomplicate things because that can happen a lot as we add complexity to our game. So I hope you can start looking forward to playing them and building in your own mixups when needed, such as different ways to punish their similar timings, that allow you to still express yourself and be comfortable with playing them. Your problem is actually a pretty good one because your natural inclination is to adjust but you're struggling with people doing the same thing a lot, so that tendency will help you a lot as you play others. Just figured I should reiterate that and I think you'll be alright if you keep working on this.

Neutral and punish will be higher priorities at different times. You may be working on more punish for a while, then go back to neutral to find better ways of setting up these new punishes you want, then return to punish for more variations....etc. So just starting and then trusting yourself to adjust when it's time is probably best.

Yes that is what i mean by overadapt, I should stop assuming that we have the same definition of terms and start defining them. Guess that's why yort asks you so much about that.

If the worse thing I can do is not use the information I get, then should you be taking every position into account? That seems extremely difficult but ideal. One way I can see that being possible is by simplifying my understanding of positions into broader categories, but that might be dangerous and make me overgeneralize my answers to situations. I guess people naturally adapt to positions anyway, which must mean that I'm taking in some info naturally. Do you think the ultimate goal is to eventually be able to identify and adapt to every position? If yes, then how can I practice deliberately gleaning and using information appropriately? Of course there's other ways to win, by perhaps forcing a simple range to happen a lot which you understand super well and then beat your opponent out there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

An ultimate goal is to know every situation as deeply as possible, but that's impossible. Instead we should just keep trying to learn and challenge our understanding as much as we can. It seems like you overwhelm yourself a lot, so breaking down this ultimate goal into much more manageable categories like you described would probably be useful. Of course you want to keep challenging your knowledge so you don't fall into a trap you mentioned, but since you seem to be constantly checking yourself I don't think that will be an issue. Also remember in a given match people won't abuse every situation to its deepest potential, including top players. Just focus on learning how people abuse them in real scenarios, but prepare yourself for a broad range so you can quickly adjust to their patterns.

You will glean information naturally in a match. Did an opponent move back and punish your approach? Then in the same or similar position you can now fake that approach and get a punish. Lasers also help to give you information as people are forced to immediately deal with them. Again, be sure not to overwhelm yourself.

 

[Anystic]

Hey fellow falcos,I've been out of the game for some time and coming back it really feels like my combo game isn't really up to snuff but I'm fairly solid all round. I've been having trouble with upping my platform combo game. I run into this situation against fastfallers,roughly 35%. Let's say I land a shine and go for the follow up shine,sometimes the way they di the second shine really throws me off and I have no idea what to do, say they go too high to go for the top middle platform shine follow up if that is an option or sometimes they even only go slightly off in a direction,I've tried some weak hits but they can usually hit me back or then land before me or the follow up just gives them an easy escape. What moves/hits should I be looking for aside from knocking them off stage if I want to keep the combo going?

I have a similar problem with peach and samus,while I'm good at zoning and winning neutral,I'm lost what to do on them beyond utilt to weak dair and weak hit,turn around u tilt etc. Has the meta become more about placing them in bad spots like I've been doing? is there anyway I can really abuse them if they land on a platform?I'm deathly afraid of peach dsmash or samus shield drop fair/nair leading to my death

And finally any tips for getting in on a marth who is extremely fast and proficient at perfect shields against laser? I feel even if I get him to miss the perfect shield I often end up not being able to get in to land a solid hit and get punished really hard for it. I've tried to tackle the MU with minimal lasers but then I feel overwhelmed by the reach and my inability to get to him due to speed and his spacing is really good
That's all for now

Thanks in advance!

 

[Gibbs]

And finally any tips for getting in on a marth who is extremely fast and proficient at perfect shields against laser? I feel even if I get him to miss the perfect shield I often end up not being able to get in to land a solid hit and get punished really hard for it. I've tried to tackle the MU with minimal lasers but then I feel overwhelmed by the reach and my inability to get to him due to speed and his spacing is really good
That's all for now

Thanks in advance!

Go watch the Bird Call podcast Ginger just had with Druggedfox last night. They talked about this aspect of the MU for like 10mins straight last night.

 

[Anystic]

Go watch the Bird Call podcast Ginger just had with Druggedfox last night. They talked about this aspect of the MU for like 10mins straight last night.

That was actually very helpful! I can do multiple laser heights but was never really sure what to use them for against marth specifically. I actually also didn't know he couldn't power shield low laser while crouching. Thanks for the recommendation

 

[MambaGreenFalco]

An ultimate goal is to know every situation as deeply as possible, but that's impossible. Instead we should just keep trying to learn and challenge our understanding as much as we can. It seems like you overwhelm yourself a lot, so breaking down this ultimate goal into much more manageable categories like you described would probably be useful. Of course you want to keep challenging your knowledge so you don't fall into a trap you mentioned, but since you seem to be constantly checking yourself I don't think that will be an issue. Also remember in a given match people won't abuse every situation to its deepest potential, including top players. Just focus on learning how people abuse them in real scenarios, but prepare yourself for a broad range so you can quickly adjust to their patterns.

You will glean information naturally in a match. Did an opponent move back and punish your approach? Then in the same or similar position you can now fake that approach and get a punish. Lasers also help to give you information as people are forced to immediately deal with them. Again, be sure not to overwhelm yourself.

I'm curious as to why you say I overwhelm myself a lot? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm just wondering how you know that/how I can keep that in check.

I finally have access to netplay over the next week, and from a short session today I made a big realization. Against a Marth today game 1 I played my normal gameplan and won pretty handily with 2 or 3 stocks. Game 2 he beats me solidly. Game 3 I decide to rely on my practice of dash back/forward/laser in place. I immediately notice that I am more comfortable playing. Not just because I've done the training to build a connection with those options, but because the interactions themselves are more intuitive. Oh I dashed forward and he did sh early fade forward fair? Don't dash forward next time. Oh I dashed back and he did overshoot DA? Don't dash back next time. This helped me adapt more easily as well. It's such a simple realization but when you rely on simple tools and mixups, understanding positions and adapting to positions becomes much easier. So now I want to carry this philosophy to the rest of my gameplay, not just grounded neutral. Where do you recommend good places are to start? What comes to mind is using full hop more and learning the ff, dj, and aerial drift mixups independently of one another. Or should I be thinking more prepositionally like Falco on top plat vs grounded marth under side plat?

Is there any straight up counterplay to opponents using options to get info on you? This seems like an unnecessary thing to dive into so I'll leave the question at that and I'm really just looking for a surface level answer, of course if you think it's important then I'll look into it more.

Today against a few Marth's I found myself trying to shielddrop dair them attacking my shield from below. But to set up the shield drop I do the dash forward shield, which leads to my feet being exposed and then they easily get to sh nair shield poke. The first answer that comes to mind is face towards the edge (if I'm close to it so I don't go into tumble) and then light shield. But even then that seems like it has a few holes. My intuitive sense tells me there's no perfect answer because it's a super strong position for Marth. What's probably more important is the mixup as a whole with immediate full hop, shield, and shield drop dair etc.

When Peach is floating offstage at that annoying height where she's right above your sh high laser. Is there any point to dash dancing instead of just standing with your back facing her? Does this change with the height she's floating at and if she has her double jump or not?

When I went to that tourney about 2 weeks ago, I found that holding the stage against Peach was really hard for me. I feel pressured to keep the pressure on her so that she can't just beat her way out of the corner with her big hitboxes and fast DA. My intuitive answer at the time was to do a super late sh bair, which easily lost to him just waiting and DA. So now I'm thinking you could threaten that bair with sh and then do waveland away instead. But after the waveland it seems like you lose pressure. I think the root of the problem is I'm not sure how to threaten her while staying out of her dash attack range. As Falco do you have to go in eventually when she's cornered just so she respects your approach more? Or is that an unnecessary risk?

 

[Dr Peepee]

When you asked a lot of emotionally-charged questions it made me believe that that was a typical mental state for you at least when it comes to the game. If you did not find my response helpful in that way then my bad. If you did want to keep it in check, then beginning with trusting yourself and getting more lost in the process instead of trying to micromanage it as I suggested would be a good start. Meditation can also be useful in this area.

Ohhhh good the simple tools did work for you! I'm always happy to see that work out. For vertical play, you begin to want to think of transitioning between ground and air with jumps but also with platforms, so both things you said will work. It's all connected. I have found a lot of enjoyment experimenting with dash SH DJ vs empty land/laser etc. The DJ can lead to drift and platform work. This is where things can get complicated, but just pick a stage and some simple mixups/stuff opponents do and begin messing around. For platforms, I think of how to abuse Falco's laser plus big strong Bair/Dair plus his great fall speed. Drift mixed with dashes or drops through the platform mixed with DJs back up can give plenty of depth here as well, but like with going up it's not necessary to have everything. If I'm on a side platform I also have SH off which can extend my threat range pretty far.

You can counterplay by giving fake info, or you can counterplay by calling it out and rushing them if they're looking to think or observe, or you can counterplay by using what they learned against them by doing something unexpected when they would call upon this info in a future situation.

DD is still okay against floating Peach since you can manipulate her float position with a timing where you pivot Bair or retreating laser for example. If she floats down kind of early you can SH Nair it as well. But just standing with your back turned lets her get a Fair on you I think so it's not something I advise unless you're just doing it as a bait or a mixup.

You can also turnaround laser out of SH to keep him honest, or you can empty land and shield then shine/aerial oos if Peach DAs. If she's cornered I also found Ftilt to be weirdly good against her but I didn't super test it. Anyway, if Peach is cornered she either has to wait or try to get you to come in or push out with DA/float. So if you know how to beat all of that stuff you'll be alright. I think you being better at fighting the float will make you better against cornered Peach too. You could also experiment with getting on the side platform and falling through with an aerial or laser to hit her floating and to have a different angle of attack which isn't so easy for her to cover.

 

[Yort]

I believe you want to do it before the aerial.


Hello Yort, I'm liking your progress =)

So you mean they are committing to the edge or just moving toward it? I like faking Bair so they don't try to go over me and then they either have to go for me or edge. Sometimes I drift farther out if they do with SH and DJ Bair them but that doesn't always work. Fsmash is great just as they weave away before they come back in to grab the edge. You probably Fsmash too early, and it's something simple practice can help you with. Her slowly falling into your range doesn't always mean you can hit her when she gets kind of close. It's weird. I like committing to Fsmash if I've punished her going high/coming into me more or I just have a really good reaction while threatening Bair. It is hard to get Fsmash to connect without a read in that position I think, but it helps to count her jumps and watch her weave since Puffs have predictable patterns that you can manipulate. Ftilt is really easy to hit with reactions on her going to edge, and this is something not to ignore I think. This will help you burn through her jumps and reset the situation quickly so you can start getting those killing Dairs much more easily. Sometimes you can Dair her going into you or trying to go high if she has more jumps, but this isn't always so reliable. Not sure how much more useful info I can offer without specific situation stuff.

If they're spacing the edge grab or they're close to the edge and not teching then yes absolutely. Walk slightly Dsmash can be very surprising for Puffs. Most Puffs don't seem to tech all that much so that is something you can play around with. I prefer Dair since it's safer if she techs but Dair is harder to hit, especially on spaced edge grabs unless you commit to going offstage and falling with it or running off then rising with it.

You'll have to be more specific about the dodges. You may be swinging too early, not manipulating her, swinging right when she gets into range, not counting her jumps, staying still too much so you get manipulated by her....so I don't know what the issue is. Maybe a video example can help unless you can give specifics.

I generally want to hit Puff out of the air and with Peach it can be either way, though out of the air is preferable since she loses options and is less able to contest me(Bair) when airborne. It's mainly about working my Bair, and if I dash forward I can always pivot SH/FH/DJ Bair out of it which is important. I can also WD and jump and Bair, which Mango used a lot at Summit and got him a lot of kills on DI away as the floaty tries to drift away. So then the floaty may come into you, which he used Usmash/Dtilt to hit and kill.
Anyway, you have to know what you can reach with in a given situation and if it's reactable/punishable. So if your pivot FH/DJ Bair is punishable or can be easily dodged, you either want to fake it or wait it out and just settle for positioning/manipulation. Manipulation can change how reactable things are, as can your own movement. Anyway yes if you make Peach float and you make her drift one way, it'll be pretty hard for her to do much else with that float. If you make Puff use 2-3 jumps it's a relatively similar story. You just need to stay in range and threaten Bair but be ready for them to move full away or come into you, and to keep moving as they move, or trying to head them off safely etc. Utilt helps a lot if they move into you, so over-DD is not necessarily the answer. Just dash some....hard to explain I guess.

You can practice it as a floaty on one end and see how you get down and then think of that. You need to learn your ranges and both sides' options first. Once you do that, then you can begin doing a type of shadowboxing where you play the options out and see if you could cover things. This is different from neutral shadowboxing because you can cover most things and in some cases everything with practice but it takes work. Be okay with using platforms.

The goal of juggling is to burn their options and hit them, or to hit them because they didn't want to let their options burn. Ideally you also want to force them away from top platforms and toward one side of the stage so they can't go over you and have a narrower mixup range as a result. This sort of transitions it into an edgeguard scenario, which means you can start thinking of getting spikes longer-term from this position, which is pretty good.

1

Thanks :]


[So you mean they are committing to the edge or just moving toward it? I like faking Bair so they don't try to go over me and then they either have to go for me or edge. Sometimes I drift farther out if they do with SH and DJ Bair them but that doesn't always work. Fsmash is great just as they weave away before they come back in to grab the edge. You probably Fsmash too early, and it's something simple practice can help you with. Her slowly falling into your range doesn't always mean you can hit her when she gets kind of close. It's weird.]


I mean both. When talking about fsmash, I mean to cover them committing to the edge but also drifting towards it, pretty much everything. By faking bair, do you mean doing an empty short hop in place thus threatening the double jump bair to hit them drifting above you? I like the idea of that and never thought about it influencing them to not go above you. What about if they are so high above you they are above the double jump bair height? So do you empty sh off the stage and dj bair if they’re drifting far away from you to hit them drifting in? Is this because fsmash won’t cover their drift to ledge when they’re this far away?


Can you give me an example of a predictable puff pattern with weave and jumps? Do you think they commit more towards landing when they have lower amounts of jumps for example? Anything else important i’m missing here? Do you have a rule for what puffs prefer to do when they have 6 jumps versus 2 for example?


Are you saying that run off DJ dair is a staple for edgeguarding puff who’s recovering below the stage?

I never go for it because it seems very risky. And Dair on stage doesn’t cover her good dj sweetspot to ledge so I don’t bother.


[You'll have to be more specific about the dodges. You may be swinging too early, not manipulating her, swinging right when she gets into range, not counting her jumps, staying still too much so you get manipulated by her....so I don't know what the issue is. Maybe a video example can help unless you can give specifics. ]


I think some of my problems include swinging too early, swinging when she gets right into range, not counting her jump, pretty much everything. What are some ways to manipulate puff into going for ledge so I can land an fsmash?


https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=329

What are some ways you manipulated her into going for ledge here / why did this ftilt not work?


https://youtu.be/Bqxz392jRoo?t=367

What should I have done here instead? I just fsmashed too early right / right as she drifted in, should I have just inserted a wait and then fsmash when I saw her drift backwards?


Do you think top players are not proficient at edgeguarding puff? I noticed a lot of opportunities for leffen to go for fsmash on puffs in for example and he would rather just wait center stage, is this a fine decision for him because of the risk of even going for this type of thing or do you think lots of players are respecting puffs drift recoveries too much / don’t understand them well enough?


2

https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=264

Can you explain why you didn’t jump up and try to hit her here and instead waited for her to land so you could laser?


https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=362

Do you mind breaking down this example of juggling for me so I can get a better idea of what’s going on here? Like what cues caused you to dj bair, what options burned and how that influenced your decision, how you manipulated her, etc.


https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=395

What about this one, why did you go for the fh aerial at this timing and why did it not work and what should you have done instead?


https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=38

Why did you go for this retreating high laser fsmash instead of an ftilt edgeguard etc? What made you think she would attack into you here?


https://youtu.be/P3swO43fiZE?t=54

Can you explain this juggle starting with the shine on the rest whiff and why it was good? Just trying to get a feel.


[I generally want to hit Puff out of the air and with Peach it can be either way, though out of the air is preferable since she loses options and is less able to contest me(Bair) when airborne.]

Sure she’s less able to contest you when airborne but she’s better at repositioning in the air than you are, and it’s difficult to rise and meet her without risking a whiff and then being stuck in the air / being beat out (at-least that’s how it feels to me).


[Anyway, you have to know what you can reach with in a given situation and if it's reactable/punishable. So if your pivot FH/DJ Bair is punishable or can be easily dodged, you either want to fake it or wait it out and just settle for positioning/manipulation]

How do you fake it here? Empty sh?

By wait it out do you mean wait for a better spot to dash forward pivot fh bair or wait for her to land and hold a good position?


[This is different from neutral shadowboxing because you can cover most things and in some cases everything with practice but it takes work. Be okay with using platforms.]


How is this different from neutral shadowboxing? I kind of considered juggling one aspect of neutral considering that puff / peach are pretty much always above you / in a juggle spot right. How would you use platforms to juggle? Waveland uptilt / land on platform with aerial / laser? I can’t imagine myself covering everything with practice it seems so hard. Juggling still feels like some magical entity that I can’t really grasp, probably because I haven’t done enough analysis on it / don’t know my options well but I still have a “loose” feeling about it.


[Ideally you also want to force them away from top platforms and toward one side of the stage so they can't go over you and have a narrower mixup range as a result]

How can they not go above you? Just the full hop bair threat?


I don’t notice you doing the dash forward pivot fh bairs in your old vods, is this a new thing?
I started working on the dash forward sh dj bair to hit her and peach but it still feels more situational than anything and I need to get a good read on her drift to make it work. Am I just not good enough at this?


3

How do you get so good at matchups without practicing them much? I never get puff / peach practice really and even with analysis it feels difficult to really stay up to speed when fighting out of state floaties who have falco practice. Just shadowboxing and making the most out of your friendly sessions when you get the chance? Kind of a general question

From watching mang0 vs hbox at summit, what sort of things do you mango was doing well in the match up and where is he lacking?

What types of things do you think need to be developed in order for a falco to beat hbox as he currently is? Why do you think falcos are struggling against puff these days is what I’m trying to ask I think, like what are we missing here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

1.

Fsmash is a bit hard to cover them moving toward edge but not committing to it, as they usually jump away or occasionally drift even farther away around the time you commit and this can even give them a way to hit you or get back for free at least. Therefore I only like it if I can confirm they have to go for edge or are likely to do it. I can confirm about when they need to jump and how many jumps that have left for example, and if Puff weaves back as she jumps then I can suspect she could come in for edge next. There are various clues you can use to make Fsmash more possible.
As for Bair, you can threaten it by just having your back turned. You can also SH backward off the stage or in place to show you're willing to move, and you can also use some dashes to indicate shifting the space of the Bair threat as well. If Puff is too high, you can use FH to do the same thing unless she's super high of course. If she does go that high then it's more of a juggle than an edgeguard and you should position on the top platform/center of the level to force her back to the side so you can Bair and reduce her options. The DJ Bair if you jump offstage hits farther out and could hit them before they commit to Bair but also if they drift away when they see you come in. Also it's just way less risky as you can confirm with the DJ Bair and go back onstage if she weaves too far out, which burns her jump(s). Fsmash does cover drift to edge.

I think Puffs almost never use 0-1 jumps and usually not all of them either(I consider this amount to be 5 as it's consistent whether you hit her yourself and she starts jumping or she jumps off of the ground). So that leaves 2-4 jumps. I think you can manipulate Puff to come in after 2 but it's less common especially if they're worried about getting hit, which moves us to 3-4. This is harder to handle but if you start actually doing manipulation to burn jumps around this time then you put a lot of pressure on Puff and she is much more likely to run into you as she has no other choice. There are other things like what happens once you start calling this out and some variation between puffs, but I think this is probably okay to start with.

Hmm not sure I'd call runoff DJ Dair a staple but it's pretty good sometimes. I think I've used SH Dair offstage to hit her as well but I don't remember fully how that experimenting went atm.

If you want Puff to go to edge, then cover her going over you and into you. That means work your Bair and Utilt. You could also stand a bit farther away from edge.

Looks like I FH'd with him coming in so he had to drift back and jump, and then I SH'd as he jumped so he then decided to go for edge. Had I moved forward a bit more he may have jumped again, but as I Ftilted a bit early and should have walked a bit more my Ftilt whiffed and Hbox was safe.

The lasers end up making your timing kind of awkward here. The Fsmash was okay but he ended up not biting on it. It's funny because you could have Dsmashed right after the Fsmash lag which would've hit him. I've done that a few times. I think if you notice your opponent goes for edge then backs away you can just wait and for example SH out and DJ Dair them, and this can encourage them to run info your Fsmash/SH Dair more. Not sure I have any major issue with the Fsmash timing itself here though...that's just how reads go lol.

I highly highly highly disagree with the way top players generally seem to opt out of edgeguarding Puff. Now in Fox's case his Fsmash is not that strong especially if he hits with the tip, but his Usmash can sometimes hit places faster that can be good, and shines/Dairs set up easier edgeguards as well. Dsmash works similarly too. But yeah I wish they would try it more and think it's better to do it, even though I understand their reasoning for not trying it.


2.

I probably just decided to change up how I wanted to handle that particular interaction and draw him into me once I had initially threatened him. I probably was also looking for him to land on the top platform and try to Bair him or let him jump more before DJ'ing to hit him but he rightly decided to bypass that and go over me. I could have Utilt'd/Baired him for this but I wasn't super prepared for him to choose this option so I settled for laser.

I Nair him and then move in to get near him. I dash back to set up Bair and make sure he can't easily go over me. He goes high with Fair partly to protect himself and partly to force me to choose to cover him going over me or predicting him going back. I decide to cover him going over me as he decides to go back over me and I Bair when I did to cover Nair mostly(maybe I tried to cover jump Bair and failed though). Pretty free Utilt from him committing there. It helps I was keeping tempo high and forcing him to use less jumps so I didn't have to wait so long for an interaction.

I think I either went to hit him trying to drift back or edge cancel there looking at my timing. I could've faked and gotten on the top platform earlier to hit him, or I could have waited and just Baird/tried to set up an Fsmash. Looking over your examples without looking at this myself for a while, it looks like I'd have done well to change my timing since he seemed to get away with attacking a little bit above the top platform with Nair/Dair and I either needed to intercept that earlier, change my starting position, or wait it out a little more often.

I backed up because I was pretty sure Hbox wouldn't go straight to edge, and then it was a pretty easy reaction to the Nair and I assumed he wouldn't jump out of laser so I swung.

Thought I could hit Fair but then decided I could make it a bait if I kept going in and it worked. Then lasers to force a jump. Then I move down idk why but I don't agree with it. The SH instead of just running off does have a bit of a DJ threat if he kept falling so he jumped. I dash in so he weaves over me. I attack as he gets around top platform height and assume he keep drifting away as he can pick a direction and keep drifting there if I try to just cover center but it also covers him drifting in thankfully so I get the timing right and hit. Another laser I shoot I could at least somewhat convert on if I hit so he jumps. I dash in to pressure. This forces his Nair and I move back in case he comes into me, but he drifts back onto the side platform. I'm moving in as he does this so I actually could have punished, but the fact that I didn't means I wasn't moving with full intent/wasn't fully aware right here.

She's better at repositioning horizontally but not vertically, and she can't really do anything about your Bair.

Yeah empty SH or just keeping back turned or using dash to imply the threat. You could also use WD too I guess to imply momentum jumping, etc.

Wait just means play the next position. Could mean look for aerial, or could mean make them think that so you can get utilt/fsmash. Can't always choose one or the other it's a lot of individual positions.

It's different from neutral shadowboxing as it's often slower and the options are more defined and winning it is more straightforward. Only so many jumps puff has unlike possible dashes from Fox for example. Same type of thing with Peach float time. Also Bair winning most of the time is pretty different. It is still very neutral like but it's an in-between skill imo. I don't mean waveland Utilt necessarily, but doing dashes and fakes etc from the platform, or going from platform to platform as they move(or pre-empting them). Getting on a platform raises your jump Bair height, so if the opponent is higher up then that's just a good thing. The downside of platforms is their more limited horizontal space but that's just something to experiment with so you know your limits there. It does take a lot and I felt like you did for a really long time about it, but if you keep working on it you'll figure it out. I haven't figured it all out myself yet but I think it can be mostly solved unlike regular neutral.

Yeah Bair keeps them from going over in most cases, but of course if they're too high then you cover which way they can fall down into Bair when they come down.

That probably is newer for me. I was still learning juggling when that vod existed. I don't understand your last question since you're dashing forward and Bair'ing so I'm assuming there's a typo somewhere or you're trying to get them to move behind you.

3.

So for matchups I can't play so much, I just did tons and tons of theorycrafting and idea work so that when I could finally play it I had so many ideas that I'd get a lot out of it quickly and hopefully catch up. It also helps if I can record those instances so I can see where my mental holes are.

 

[peedy]

Hey PP I miss you greatly. I have 4 questions if your up for it

1. Gravy talks about option select in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4whcJspFZ0

I have come across 2 option selects that seem useful

1. Gravy Double fast fall and Double L-cancel so if you don't have enough time to react you will automatically fastfall/L-cancel
2. The Falco multishine option select (endorsed by Zhu lol) https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/4de38s/new_falco_multishine_pseudoos/

Are their any other option selects that you could name that seem useful to you?

My other questions are so

1. Drugged fox recently said that he doesn't believe anyone has had the optimal playstyle up to his standards. He did say however he believed you were the greatest player that had ever played the game when playing at your peak. Are there any major disagreements you two have on how you believe the game should be played. And would you be able to name a few major ones pertaining to the neutral

2. I want to make heatmaps and heatmaps of including dashes, and general frame data(example if fox is next to falco and they both dash at the same time. What is the farthest distance Fox can be for the dair/nair to connect assuming he doesn't sheild). Do you think that would be an effective way to learn neutral/positioning. Would that be something that would be of benefit to this forum. I know theirs a website with heatmaps of oos options. But I believe it would be of great benefit if say we did it with a floating puff.

3. Would claw be extremely beneficial in your opinion as you could hold down c-stick to asdi down and have slightly more aerial mobility or do you think that the benefit would be minimal.

Thanks for reading this. I know you read everything. If this is too many questions please let me know as I would like to become more active in these forums. Ill try waiting a little while to ask you more questions as I don't want to tire you out. Alll we want is the strong and hard peepee that we've come to know. Thanks again - pman

 

[Dr Peepee]

I forgot about that double shine thing. I really need to work out shine pressure since I've put it off for so many years now lol. And no I don't particularly know of many good option selects but something in my brain about some OOS OS during opponent shield pressure may exist. I just don't remember that stuff very well.

1. Druggedfox and I have a very high respect for the other's thinking about the game. And for advising 99.99% of the playerbase our advice would basically be the same. However in terms of end game/uppermost-level Melee, yeah we differ in an important way. Druggedfox does not believe in an idea of "style" and thinks everyone should conform to how he thinks is the best way to play Melee. I agree that in situations there are best options and in general very good options, but I think people have different skills and preferences that will make these option interactions play out differently for different players, thus making "optimal" more subjective at a higher level. So I believe in style. In terms of punish we probably have minor disagreements at most but it's much more similar I would think.

2. I think it could be useful and make options more tangible to people. A challenge with Melee is that dashing or running for extra frames could shift positions a lot, dashing doesn't always occur at the same time, and dashing back would shift space subtly. Puff floating would also be useful, but a limitation is what happens if Puff just fakes and jumps again instead of committing to dropping and using an aerial, which is the most typical Puff response. That doesn't make a heatmap of her useless, but it does mean you'd probably need a couple different ones for slightly different positions she puts herself into so people could transition between these spaces more reliably, or at least that might be a nice evolution of your idea long-term.

3. Do you mean C stick to Dair and then hold it for mobility? Not totally sure what you mean but it may be a situation where it sometimes is very beneficial and sometimes not so much. I'd probably need to understand exactly what you mean before I could answer any better.

I do my best to help. Thanks for showing understanding and I hope we can work together more.

 

[peedy]

I'm sorry I meant holding down c-stick while dash dancing so have that mini crouch cancel if you get hit without reaction in time to say a dash attack. Admittedly I don't know too much about asdi down so maybe I am wrong/misunderstood something. Thank you so much for the concise answers though. Ill try to be more specific next time and ill try to do more research before asking a question.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah yeah I've heard about this. It's probably better to use if you approach or are close with the opponent and can't react as you mention. Not so useful when you're farther away. Maybe it would be better to just totally change the muscle memory of all DD'ing for ASDI down, but for me personally I think I can react and/or guess pretty well when I will get hit so I wouldn't feel the need to change it often enough to warrant changing it right now. I tend to hold down if I whiff grab, or if I whiff an aerial I may sometimes shine or WD back so I can be holding down but doing something else if I'm wrong. Anyway there's nothing wrong with your idea.

 

[peedy]

Thank you so much for everything you're doing for me and this community. I shall return after I figure out how to create heat maps, apply asdi to my game and have read all 622 pages of the falco forums. May the bagel gods bless you with an everlasting life full of kragasms

 

[FalcoSBM1990]

Dr Peepee It's really sad that you won't be at EVO 2018, the very last Melee Evo, I wanted to see how you apply your theoretical tactics with Falco.

I'm really sad, I was so hopeful... damn it hurts.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm really sorry man, it's not for lack of trying =(

 

[FalcoSBM1990]

I'm really sorry man, it's not for lack of trying =(

I didn't want to ask you before, because I thought it would be a surprise, but if you don't feel well, is okay, I understand it, but I was so hopeful.

 

[peedy]

Hey guys. I've worked on asdi and found some cool situations where it was very useful. Still don't have it down pat. I've read all the Falco pages and it had some great gems of information. I was surprised by how often information was repeated which made me realize I'm glad I read it before I asked questions. It made me realize how bad people are at the neutral game even at high level which is disappointing.

I was wondering if anyone knew of a few players who would be interested in guiding me in the creating of heat maps, and a flow chart in falcos combo/punish game. I don't mind doing the grunt work but realized that maybe it would be best if I have guidance from people such as Kadano who understand the technical aspects of the game. Any recommendations on players who are known to help strange smashers online?

2nd question. I read in a post that you (ppmd) realized across fighting games that their are I believe 3 basic playstyles that transcends all fighting games. I wish I could find the link . If this is to vague or you don't recall then I understand.

Some ways I've categorize neutral is this

1. Rhythm, Bpm (BPM can be used for how often they attack, retreat, dash dance, bait, ect ect)
2. Playstyle Complexity (Complexity of dd rhythm, feints, layers of threat ( I feel like you are the only smasher I've seen that utilized many layers of threat) still don't know how to categorize this but am working on it
3. How they react to you (Do they react to dash dance rhythm, your positioning, percentage. Are they waiting for you to pass a certain point, are they reacting to you waiting)
4. How they position themselves in relation to you
5. How do they initiate, How do they counterplay
6. What makes them feel pressured how do they react when pressured
7. What are their goals, tactics, strategies, basic gameplan
8. Whats their personality (Aversive personality, Stubborn personality)
9. How do they establish threats
10. What are their tells (think boxing) What are your tells (boxing)
11. What makes them draw a reaction (When you run torward them do they try to attack)
12. What types of reads do they make

I could go on and write many more. And honestly you could make many categories upon categories of these categories. They are all interrelated but I don't know how exactly. I don't want you to write an extremely long post but was wondering how you categorized players you've never played before, and what tools do you try to figure this out.

3. I appreciate you reading this even if you don't replay I appreciate it. Because I'm gonna be on here probably twice a week (so as not to overwhelm you to much) do you have any suggestions on how I could ask better questions so as not to waste you time. 1st principle approach is helpful but I am a scatter brain. Thank you - pman

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't remember the styles, but I do remember reading that. I'm not sure how much I'd agree with it now lol but it would be cool to see again.

I suggest searching for some of my posts to Yort a while back in which we discussed "archetypes." It was basically how I categorize people. Short version is stuff like aggressive vs defensive, passive vs proactive(so you can be aggressive and passive for example), fast or slow, and so on. I think those are some of the biggest ones I use though.

Ask specific questions to get specific answers. MUCH better than vague questions. Also asking about specific situations or parts of the game(neutral and anything related, comboing, DI, tech chasing, edgeguarding, etc) helps us zero in on the essential ways to improve. Only other major areas are practice, analysis, and mentality imo.

 

[peedy]

I will work on asking more specific questions to get my specific answers again thank you so much

 

[Noscaj]

yo pp or anyone else that can answer,

any idea how west does this "double soft hit uair" without knockback
I can occasionally hit single hit uair shine but not as consistently as I would like, and if this double hit thing is reasonable on the timing i think it could be the next step for falco optimization

heres the vod where west does it

combo starts at 3:30 and he hits two uair shines

toph talks about it more starting at 4:08

EDIT: the ones at 3:30 are single hit, the one at 4:08 is double soft