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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
You just need to hit close to Falco instead of the tip of his leg/tail to make it work.
No I haven't ever done anything so specific. Sometimes I play without lasers to help me appreciate lasers/play positions without lasers better, but that's about it.Dr Peepee hey odd question, you ever mess around with playing no wavedash no wavelands, waveshines, shield, etc., just dash dance, laser, grab, shine and aerial pressure?
KEYLIME SSB
Smash Journeyman
Hello! I recently picked up falco after around a year of hardcore maining Luigi and need some tips:
1: how do I work shine into my neutral play?
2: what are good setups for shine in punish?
Thanks for your advice!
1: how do I work shine into my neutral play?
2: what are good setups for shine in punish?
Thanks for your advice!
Hey all, I've got one quick question. Against fastfallers, on what DI is shinebair most effective?
Also, Keylime, the most common ways to hit confirm into that shine combo starter are either Dair or Nair > shine. Shine is good because of its speed rather than active frames or range. In terms of it's use in neutral, I generally only consider it as my approach (as opposed to being a thing I do after an aerial or whatever I close the distance with) when my opponent is already kind of stuck. It also isn't the best for stuffing approaches because you have to make a much harder timing read than you would with, say, autocancel bair because of weak active frames. It's best to just use raw when you don't have time to put out another hitbox or when your opponent does't have time to stuff your dash in.
I suck so I'd like to have someone else confirm/expose this.
Also, UNGA UNGA WAKE UP SHINE UNGA UNGA
Also, Keylime, the most common ways to hit confirm into that shine combo starter are either Dair or Nair > shine. Shine is good because of its speed rather than active frames or range. In terms of it's use in neutral, I generally only consider it as my approach (as opposed to being a thing I do after an aerial or whatever I close the distance with) when my opponent is already kind of stuck. It also isn't the best for stuffing approaches because you have to make a much harder timing read than you would with, say, autocancel bair because of weak active frames. It's best to just use raw when you don't have time to put out another hitbox or when your opponent does't have time to stuff your dash in.
I suck so I'd like to have someone else confirm/expose this.
Also, UNGA UNGA WAKE UP SHINE UNGA UNGA
Dr Peepee
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=676
was this dash back after this slight laser in bad in your opinion? Similiar to the n0ne one I asked about months ago. If I land a laser THIS close to someones shield should I always commit?
In what spots should I even be lasering constantly to slow down marth?
If he's on a platform already and playing that mix up game should I even be trying to laser him because his movement is already limited due to the platform?
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=720
this is a good example of above, do you think these two lasers were even good here? Do you think it's justified to not laser at all here and try to bait marth into coming off platform and then trying to pressure landing with aerials rather than trying to laser him out of the air / his fair like i'm doing here?
I'm sick of relying on lasers in this spot, I have been lasering a lot more versus marth as you and druggedfox have told me to but I feel like some of the lasers i'm doing like above are useless and i'm just wasting time / being predictable. Something I need to refine.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=722
same here, I think I almost always default to dash back > laser to hit peoples landings / them out of the air, which I think is fine, but do you think for example dash back dash in jc grab OR dash back dash forward to bait an uptilt and then punish would have been better here or is it ok to primarily try to laser these landings?
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=727
same with this one, what might you have done instead upon seeing his nair during your dash back into the corner? I did dash back laser in place as per usual. I think dash back > approaching delayed aerial might have been better here, but i'm not sure if the timing would have me at risk to dash back. Do you think him doing an uptilt or jab after landing from this fair was likely? In that case i'd be afraid to aerial, which makes me think laser might have been the right choice. In particular I think marths are more likely to uptilt / jab when they have me cornered rather than center stage for example, so I think the laser in place might have been fine. Still though, I feel like I might be missing something and dropping openings.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=743
at 12.23, when I did the laser in place was it an inappropriate use of decision point to try and slight laser in, considering I could have seen him jump and known he would jump over the laser?
What should I do instead if I see him jump after this laser in place, a few more dashes to hit his landing and make his position worse, as the slight laser in I did here definitely put me in a bad spot.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=736
okay one more, do you think the lasers I did on reading his run off platform here were bad? I really don't like doing them but I do them anyways.
I did 4 lasers and none of them connected, which I think is unacceptable, but do you think this is acceptable / ok?
What would you have done here to gain better advantage and try to play the marth on platform vs falco mix up game? do you have any better ideas for this position than just trying to bait him coming off and lasering like I seem to do?
[Laser is more likely to make them stop OR try to get involved to beat other lasers]
Wouldn't laser also be likely to make them counter attack and try to beat attacks? I feel this is very common, and different from anti-laser again set ups. Also, what do you mean when you say make them stop? Is a marth taking laser then uptilting his stopping? What about him doing take laser on shield > nair oos?
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1. Usually when you hit shields it's a good time. Sometimes from high up when you waveland into the opponent that can work too.
2. You usually Dair or Nair into shine when you punish, and tech chasing with shine on ground or platforms can break people holding down which is useful for combos. You can also use shine to Bair or shine to Dair to kill.
When they hold down that's pretty good, and I believe when they hold out for one direction it seems you can switch them up sometimes. I really should've looked into it but I just avoided the execution of shine bair for a long time. I'm sure bones knows though.
Yeah you should've committed when you were right on top of him.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=676
was this dash back after this slight laser in bad in your opinion? Similiar to the n0ne one I asked about months ago. If I land a laser THIS close to someones shield should I always commit?
In what spots should I even be lasering constantly to slow down marth?
If he's on a platform already and playing that mix up game should I even be trying to laser him because his movement is already limited due to the platform?
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=720
this is a good example of above, do you think these two lasers were even good here? Do you think it's justified to not laser at all here and try to bait marth into coming off platform and then trying to pressure landing with aerials rather than trying to laser him out of the air / his fair like i'm doing here?
I'm sick of relying on lasers in this spot, I have been lasering a lot more versus marth as you and druggedfox have told me to but I feel like some of the lasers i'm doing like above are useless and i'm just wasting time / being predictable. Something I need to refine.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=722
same here, I think I almost always default to dash back > laser to hit peoples landings / them out of the air, which I think is fine, but do you think for example dash back dash in jc grab OR dash back dash forward to bait an uptilt and then punish would have been better here or is it ok to primarily try to laser these landings?
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=727
same with this one, what might you have done instead upon seeing his nair during your dash back into the corner? I did dash back laser in place as per usual. I think dash back > approaching delayed aerial might have been better here, but i'm not sure if the timing would have me at risk to dash back. Do you think him doing an uptilt or jab after landing from this fair was likely? In that case i'd be afraid to aerial, which makes me think laser might have been the right choice. In particular I think marths are more likely to uptilt / jab when they have me cornered rather than center stage for example, so I think the laser in place might have been fine. Still though, I feel like I might be missing something and dropping openings.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=743
at 12.23, when I did the laser in place was it an inappropriate use of decision point to try and slight laser in, considering I could have seen him jump and known he would jump over the laser?
What should I do instead if I see him jump after this laser in place, a few more dashes to hit his landing and make his position worse, as the slight laser in I did here definitely put me in a bad spot.
https://youtu.be/fmbNa_EvHG0?t=736
okay one more, do you think the lasers I did on reading his run off platform here were bad? I really don't like doing them but I do them anyways.
I did 4 lasers and none of them connected, which I think is unacceptable, but do you think this is acceptable / ok?
What would you have done here to gain better advantage and try to play the marth on platform vs falco mix up game? do you have any better ideas for this position than just trying to bait him coming off and lasering like I seem to do?
[Laser is more likely to make them stop OR try to get involved to beat other lasers]
Wouldn't laser also be likely to make them counter attack and try to beat attacks? I feel this is very common, and different from anti-laser again set ups. Also, what do you mean when you say make them stop? Is a marth taking laser then uptilting his stopping? What about him doing take laser on shield > nair oos?
How do you avoid disliking watching yourself play?
I seem to cycle between enjoying watching my play and getting frustrated and actually pissed at the way I play (even just vods from a week ago etc). I think it's unhealthy and a symptom of inappropriate expectations, a difference in how it feels for me in game vs how it looks for example, as it feels better when i'm playing and when I watch back I just think I look clunky or disgusting. Idk if this makes complete sense but just looking for some psychological advice on acceptance I guess, as I find it very hard to feel good about my improvement or my melee play in general, and this causes me distress.
Lasering at or outside his DA is a good range, and once you've discouraged that then inside the range can be good. If he's on a platform it's okay to grounded laser sometimes as he could run off into it, but you'll need to trick him into coming into it and can't spam as regularly as if he's on the ground.
Those first two lasers were okayish, but then when he came off the platform with side B you'd want to be ready to hit him. Doing a lot of lasers is one thing, but be sure you're also looking to move away from them at any moment so you don't get locked into laser mode like you did here. Alternately, you can do DJ lasers, platform lasers, or mix in longer pauses between lasers to mess with them more.
Laser is easily the safer and likely more consistent option here. However I think mixing it with waiting then aerial'ing like you're talking about can be okay.
There are some varieties of positions like this where laser then aerial would be less effective but for this particular position as Marth drifts in it's pretty good. Grab is usually going to be too slow and not a strong enough punish so winning neutral with aerial is often better when you can, though sometimes grabbing in this way is okay. Just avoiding Marth's sword then going for grab puts you into position to be dodged more easily, so it's not something I'd typically recommend since without laser he could attack or dodge before you got him with your slow speed usually.
If you hadn't rolled then maybe you could have done the aerial, but him knowing more precisely where you'd be makes it harder to say aerial is better. Still it could've been alright here. You want to hit him before he could get a grounded attack out, so that's why I'd say opting for the laser is just easier if you're unsure. If you do high Dair you can win the trade with jab or beat it, same with Utilt normally, but if he shields you're not in great shape unless you cross him up. I don't think the risk is worth taking if you can't punish the lag directly/know pretty much exactly what the Marth will do/manipulate him to lose the situation, so that taken into account it's often easiest to say just laser here. From Marth's perspective this can be pretty annoying, even if for Falco it doesn't always translate to a direct aerial. It leads to a good position and then aerial/better position shortly afterward, which is pretty good I think.
Yeah that reaction should've been pretty free. That means you still decided in advance to laser/don't have something prepared for that high up situation. Given his percent, you can dash/run FH Nair him. Lower percents you could FH Fair. Closer positions you can FH Bair. Mid percent Dair works. If you're off guard you can threaten with SH Bair so he doesn't come into you then retreating laser.
You don't have to hit lasers for them to be good. Projectiles are meant to control the opponent, and most of yours did that. When he DJ'd back onto the platform you could've attacked or maybe pressured him, but the low laser you did there would've been basically impossible for him to get hit by so he comes off the platform at you. So that last laser wasn't good because I think you had checked out by then.
Shooting SHLs on side platform could help him come down and you can also fake from there and shoot to the ground instead of on the side platform. Lots of mixups there. If he stays too far away you can come in and begin Bair'ing him or threatening the Bair. I guess potentially also going above him, maybe moreso on tri platform levels, but I don't like it so much on neutral PS at least. Remember he is trying to avoid the ground, so you can play with him a lot once you keep that in mind.
Yes laser would try to make them counterattack your approaches as well. Stop is what you said, it stops them. Laser is awesome partly because it limits their mobility, and gives Falco a temporary mobility gain over them he otherwise wouldn't have. Once you have mobility advantage though, you don't necessarily need to maintain it, but just keep it long enough to score a hit. The opponent may act as if they're stuck longer than they actually are as well, which is the result of conditioning/their fear.
Even when I watch myself from when my health was getting bodied, I still look at what I do right as well as wrong. I still explain and try to understand why things happened. Once I understand, the bad feelings go away. Same with matchups or stages I haven't liked. Once I understand them, I'm okay with them. In general I also just came to accept myself more as a person which helped. When I was a rising player, I took solace in the fact that I was doing the best I could and was so eager to learn that mistakes didn't make me upset so much as they were exciting problems to tackle for growth.
That said, I was never convinced I was a good player until I was a top player and was basically forced to accept it lol. One thing that did help me though was seeing my growth, and comparing older videos with newer ones. If I knew I was getting better, that always made me happier. I think it's pretty clear you could use that technique with yourself too =p
Does this help?
[From Marth's perspective this can be pretty annoying, even if for Falco it doesn't always translate to a direct aerial. It leads to a good position and then aerial/better position shortly afterward, which is pretty good I think. ]
Is getting a laser on marth's whiff fair when i'm cornered really a good position for me? I feel like I often get hit here with jab / uptilt after laser (usually I just don't go for it, probably because I play too scared here) and then I might land off stage and die. I understand what you mean in general though, I just asked so much about it because i'm afraid of over-lasing here in these spots and sacrificing openings.
[Yeah that reaction should've been pretty free. That means you still decided in advance to laser/don't have something prepared for that high up situation. Given his percent, you can dash/run FH Nair him. Lower percents you could FH Fair. Closer positions you can FH Bair. Mid percent Dair works. If you're off guard you can threaten with SH Bair so he doesn't come into you then retreating laser]
I definitely decided to do the slight laser in advance, still sick of the fact that i'm doing this. Do you think this means i'm not playing deliberately enough? Is this an example of that?
If I see him full hop here though and I jump up immediately to meet him with nair wouldn't be able to fair and hit me out of it if he decides to fair while he's up there? I understand what you're saying though and I will try to work on intercepting his full hop, i'm pretty sure me running away and never trying to contest it is a big problem of mine in this position. This happens a lot to me, I asked a similar question about my set with dublat months ago I believe.
[Once you have mobility advantage though, you don't necessarily need to maintain it, but just keep it long enough to score a hit]
Could you explain what you mean in the last part of this sense, about keeping it long enough to score a hit?
By mobility advantage do you mean purely the fact that falco gets to move first and act for a few frames before the opponent can? I feel like if you start moving after the laser connects then after 1-2 dashes and they're active again the mobility advantage is lost, and you need to keep lasering to keep a mobility advantage. I don't know if this seems like a dumb question but I feel like we're thinking of the mobility advantaged gained from lasers differently.
I just spent a while comparing my old vods to new, and I definitely have gotten a lot better. I can't help but get frustrated at the way I was playing a year ago lol just like last weeks vods but trying to focus on the clear and obvious improvements help.
I think I struggle with one important aspect of growth mindset, where I look at things i'm doing in my vods that I think are bad and I look at them as though they are issues that are beyond my control that I can't fix, because I view them as ingrained habits I have developed over a long time. I think this is pretty bad and I need to work on it, I will re-approach some readings on the stuff and try to focus on it asdfasdfasdfasdfa
Why do you think stadiums transformations are good for falco compared to other characters? I saw you mention that a little while ago.
Thank you very much for the advice, it always picks me up
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Hi PP, I dearly hope you are doing well. I ran into a problem with a platform camping sheik. During friendlies whenever I was on the ground I won the neutral exchanges even when I didn't laser. However when on any other stage unless I had the lead he would stay on platforms (even then he would camp on platform for 1 minute). At higher percent I would attack with a full hop aerial to knock him off stage but at lower percent that was risky as he could attack me in air. Maybe I should mix up full hop attack which is risky with shine?
I couldn't laser as he would just shield and stay on the platform. I tried DD out of range but he would either needle or shield drop (legit best shield dropper I've ever scene) Upair wasn't worth it. I tried attacking from the top platform but he would just react. I tried mixing it up with short hop laser (at the top platform) but the 50/50 between Aerial or laser wasn't worth it and a lot of times s/he could just hit me with fair while I was in the air anyways. Even if I hit him with the laser in the air, sheik has frame advantage. The only thing I can think of is just shine on platform but I can't imagine falco has the advantage as sheiks combo game is better I believe than falcos in this situation (at least until sheik is at a higher percent). Maybe I'm wrong but do you have any thoughts. I know this isn't normal gameplay but I think it's important to find out anyways. Do you have any thoughts on something I may have missed. Do you think sheik has the advantage in this particular situation. If not why? I feel as if this is applicable as well to a platform camping puff who has the lead as well so I find figuring this out extremely important.
Thank you for taking your time reading this. Any way you think I could have been more specific for your tastes or my benefit. I hope to see your lovely falco or marth soon. Love you PP
I couldn't laser as he would just shield and stay on the platform. I tried DD out of range but he would either needle or shield drop (legit best shield dropper I've ever scene) Upair wasn't worth it. I tried attacking from the top platform but he would just react. I tried mixing it up with short hop laser (at the top platform) but the 50/50 between Aerial or laser wasn't worth it and a lot of times s/he could just hit me with fair while I was in the air anyways. Even if I hit him with the laser in the air, sheik has frame advantage. The only thing I can think of is just shine on platform but I can't imagine falco has the advantage as sheiks combo game is better I believe than falcos in this situation (at least until sheik is at a higher percent). Maybe I'm wrong but do you have any thoughts. I know this isn't normal gameplay but I think it's important to find out anyways. Do you have any thoughts on something I may have missed. Do you think sheik has the advantage in this particular situation. If not why? I feel as if this is applicable as well to a platform camping puff who has the lead as well so I find figuring this out extremely important.
Thank you for taking your time reading this. Any way you think I could have been more specific for your tastes or my benefit. I hope to see your lovely falco or marth soon. Love you PP
MambaGreenFalco
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2017
- Messages
- 179
Yes, I'm a pretty emotional person so for something that I spend so much time with like Melee it's very hard to separate my emotions from the game. I guess that means I should channel them into something or somewhere but I'm not sure how (or where!) to do that. Even practicing Melee can be emotional for me because I sometimes use it as an outlet for my stress or it creates more stress because I have high expectations for myself, and like you said I tend to overwhelm myself. I have been meditating on it more but if you could give me any advice as to how to channel my emotions in game better that would be greatly appreciated. I haven't replied in a while because I spent a long time thinking about your last response, as well as the fact that I've been grinding punish game for a few hours a day rather than analysis/shadowboxing.
In the position where Peach is trying to get back on stage with her float, what's the difference between dash dancing and mixing up your sh, dj, and bair timings with your back turned? Seems like with something like sh backflip dj right before you hit the ground and then bair fade towards them, you're able to push them back slightly more and still land on stage or grab ledge. But of course this is more committal, but what exactly is the risk/reward on that option?
On FD, against fastfallers, there's a point where dair will send into a tech chase (38% I think?) so then Falco has to either sh uair, or nair/soft hit bair. This is the point where the practice comes in handy, but it's not hard to imagine the counterplay to these options. First with sh uair, can't they just sdi up the sh uair and get out? If so then it seems like Falco either has to read the di early with wd up tilt or do a full hop reverse bair, which seems super bad but I can't think of other consistent options.
The other situation is if they di more horizontally after the shine, the problem I have in this scenario is if my nair won't set up for a tech chase in the corner, and this is quite common on fd because it's the widest stage. I've found some success with the soft bair up tilt thing but I know you don't like that because it's completely reliant on them diing in on the soft bair.
Is there a way to di/sdi Falcon's nair when you get by it at low percent such that it doesn't knock you down? In my experience seems like if you di down and away you only have enough time to shine or spotdodge. But he can outspace the shine with grab and it only lasts for one frame so it's super timing specific anyway. Even cc doesn't feel that great because shine has such a small hitbox in front of Falco and dsmash comes out on frame 6 not to mention the fact that it's not even that effective when Falcon is at lower percent. I ask this because the frames during which Falcon's nair is out feels like the time that he has the most pressure on Falco. And Falco has to either read it early or respect it super hard with shield. Is the answer just sh bair and up tilt? I think what I'm really looking for is a way to deal with it facing forward. Without a way of dealing with it facing forward I feel like I have to play approaching mixups, because once I get in a range where they can sh nair at me without me being able to turn around in time I feel like I have to go in. Maybe the answer is dash dancing at this range? Although I've been trying to stay away from dash dancing and using the simple dashes so idk how I feel about that. I guess I just get in that range and then mixup dash forward and dash back? That answer seems deceivingly simple.
Recently I've been thinking that banning second is much better than banning first in 2/3 sets. Especially better in matchups where there are a lot of stages that haven't been widely accepted by the community as "good" or "bad" for one or the other character. For example in Falco vs Fox, if I ban second, and I see that the Fox bans FD first, then I get to ban another stage that I'm not comfortable in the matchup instead of banning fd like fod. But if I had banned first, then I wouldn't have known that the Fox dislikes FD because I maybe would have banned it first. So now the Fox has the option to take me to fod on his cp. Although I guess this is matchup depedent because against Peach, if I ban first, I ban Fd 100% of the time, so now I get to see if the peach dislikes fod or bf more.
During analysis, I think I've gotten to a point where I can break down options pretty well. But now that I'm coming back to it after practicing punish game so much, I've started thinking more about contextualizing options in a gameplan, instead of analyzing them and digesting them in a vacuum. So how do I form a gameplan? Is more depth in a gameplan better, or should it be simple such that I have an easy way of understanding it and reminding myself of it shortly before a match? Should I just focus on how to get my important hits, and how to prevent them from getting their meaningful hits? Should a gameplan cover more than neutral?
I've started to practice shadowboxing while imagining myself in a tournament scenario. It's helpful because it pressures me (in a good way) to execute but also think of new options. But I've found that I can only do it for so long. The funny thing is, I can't tell if it's because I run out of energy quickly or because I get "used" to the fact that I'm playing "in tourney". After this happens I take a break and move on without imagining myself in the context of a tournament and come back to it later. Although this state of mind might be good but I'm not sure so I choose to not expend my efforts too much on it.
https://vods.co/v/ztrqmm
At 0:41, Mango did a sh nair at Armada, which I like because the platform height allowed Mango to comfortably attack Armada's shield, but then Mango does an immediate sh dair back into center stage. This part I'm not so sure as to why he did that. If his goal was to retake center, then it still put him in a bad position (in shield against Armada coming down with an aerial) but if his goal was to beat armada shield drop bairing I don't think it was fast enough to do that either. I'm not sure what Mango's supposed to do after the nair, which leads me to believe that Mango should maybe not even commit to the nair there even though it's so well spaced because sit loses to Armada's really common options in that scenario of just holding shield then doing something oos or d smash immediate.
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Yeah if you don't have frame advantage and then attack and get hit it's obviously bad, but if you have it or know how to play with what you have it shouldn't be terrible. Having space to back up like you did, even if it wasn't much, was still good enough to give you more mixups as well. Stopping Marth means you can have mobility over him which makes things better for you. If you hit him then it's still good, even if you're less likely to get him offstage on PS there with it.
Yes, but I'd reframe and say that you are not fully understanding your options on your opponent/their possible options and you may also be uptight as well.
I think you'd benefit from messing with that from both sides. Marth's Fair isn't super fast and also starts above him, so going into him from below isn't ideal for him. If you're that worried about it you can fake going up, get him to swing, and then hit him, but I do think you'll find you can directly hit him a decent amount.
Yes, so sometimes the opponent is on your timer of lasers where you shoot regularly, so they don't move extra even when they could. This means you could move more than you "should." They may also be slow to move because they may assume you're attacking after lasering, and if you then mix up lasering just after they confirm you didn't attack, you can then force them to delay A LOT to avoid both of these timings or they just begin guessing.
How can these habits be ingrained if you're changing so many of them? =p
They're not better for Falco than for Fox, but besides that I think having higher platforms helps his combo game, and having lower ones helps his laser game. He can also get shines off the top on the non-fire transformations somewhat reliably.
You're welcome!
I would also recommend shooting SHLs on the opposite side platform as that can just harass them more when that's what they want to avoid. That tends to encourage most people who just want to avoid lasers to come down. Lot of mixups can happen there. Also as for the top platform, you say they can react, but what are they reacting with? Are you SH'ing at them? Doing runoff lasers as well as SHLs as well as just SH'ing off then landing or DJ'ing and doing mixups there? Are you spacing Bair with WD off or SH off or dash/runoff shine turnaround? And then what is he doing after reacting? Too vague on your part but if you can give me specifics and try out some more options we can get a better idea I think. It's a hard position but one that can be played better I think.
Being emotional is okay, and I am pretty emotional myself. Part of my own solution was working on my outside stress because I realized my Melee is connected to my real life and solving one would help the other. This came in the form of various books, meditating to think about how I should respond to various difficult thoughts and people instead of my regular negative patterns, and sentence completion exercises. The latter has me writing down sentence starters like "if I want to be happy, I will-" then writing down 6-10 endings as fast as I can so my conscious mind doesn't get in the way. Then I can look at what I actually think and beginning addressing it. Another general solution was working on my relationship to the game and always returning to how much fun it was to learn and play great players and hope they played their best so I could improve....instead of fearing them or worrying about what others thought. That's much harder in the modern era, but it is still achievable. I am glad you've spent time working on my solutions.
If you commit to the Bair, then it's of course very committal. If you just SH backward, then you can threaten them coming in with the DJ Bair pretty well since it's so fast and pretty large option too. Just keep in mind how quickly Peach can move and how long her float is, and how Peaches often commit really early or really late in the float, and you'll be more alright. DD helps you mix your Bair timing up and also helps you change your space in case you want to fade back and punish her Fair/Nair in as opposed to going out to hit it. I would also recommend falling with laser after DJ'ing or running off and DJ'ing so you can end her float early, and if she comes in to hit your laser you can just Dair/Bair her instead.
Sometimes I Dair here anyway since they don't expect it and then you can get another useful rep in. Sometimes I hit them up like you describe and get ready to FH/DJ Bair their DJ and push them offstage. Sometimes I Nair if it pushes them offstage or into the corner which can be an easy tech chase. Sometimes I go above them with DJ Nair/Dair to catch their jump and mix up what happens next. If they've been DI'ing away I see if I can get a Utilt Fsmash. Lots of cool stuff you can do here imo.
You're right I don't like the weak Bair =p So I may mix between Nair and Dair again here, may Uair if I can get it, may let them fall and hit them if they tech or let them jump and FH/DJ into them with Dair/Nair them. I think sometimes I can walk Fsmash it too but don't fully remember.
If Nair hits you, you don't need to shine after DI'ing down and away. You can just dash away and dodge then, especially if you get the DI on both hits. You can Nair through Falcon's Nair but you need to be slightly inside it or something. I don't know exactly how it works but unless Falcon's Nair is fully spaced you usually don't have to worry about it in my experience. You can still DD without overdoing it. Lasering in this range can be fine as well, and that's part of what can keep him from punishing any dashes or just getting easily spaced Nairs.
I always think about banning a stage I don't care as much about first just to see if they'll do any bans for me after that. If not, I still get to ban what I want anyway. I think it can depend though as you say.
A gameplan will cover many things, but you want to have everything be as deep as can be too. It's hard to manage, which is why I suggest reducing complexity whenever possible. People also have preferences, so things don't stay equal when people work on them. Gameplans should cover everything, so yes that includes more than neutral.
He probably thought Armada may be a bit slow on the shield drop and he could trade, or Armada may fade away aerial instead and he could catch that. To be honest though, I do think it was a bit hopeful/autopilot/stressed and not too effective of a Dair. I like the Nair fine personally as he may have been able to force Armada to change his shield angle and not be able to shield drop so easily to avoid getting shield stabbed. Being low percent, it could help if he CC'd a shield drop aerial here and punished as well, which is a type of play Mango abused more to get kills at Summit when he beat Armada's Peach. Anyway I wouldn't have done that Dair either and you're right to question it. Other plays could include Bair, crouch and wait, laser, FH above if he thought Armada might do that, or dash/run/SH back toward center.
roboticphish
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2013
- Messages
- 54
Hey
Dr Peepee
let's talk about some ten-thousand foot theory for a minute.
I've been playing almost five years now, and there are parts of my game that have gotten very well-defined. Most notably, I've developed a pretty good bait game and quite a bit of speed in the micro mixup game. But occasionally I'll come across a player who has maybe two years experience under their belt, but for some reason they're tuned into the way the game works better than I've managed to get to in my whole run. They know when to go for moves that knockdown, they know how to cover options in a really safe, psychologically rattling, and punishing way, they're able to get inside my head and tell when I'm doing an option that works in 95% of neutral interactions but isn't going to work against them, etc. There's also the added benefit that everyone learns how to kill Falco in their first year, so mistakes in neutral are much more easily punished. So there's clearly a fundamental difference between the way I'm viewing the game and the way some of these upstarts are, but I'm struggling to understand what that difference is.
Which brings me to the original question. You've told me in the past that Melee is defined by a certain set of rules, and that understanding those rules is what it means to understand Melee's fundamentals. Are those rules numerable, meaning it's something you could come up with a "list of things to keep in mind"? Is that a list a mile long, or are there some basic rules a Falco player should always try to incorporate in their gameplan? Furthermore, how do you reconcile the rules of Melee the game with the trends of human behavior?
To this last question, an example. One of the rules of Melee, I would imagine, is that you have to account for crouch cancelling %s if you're trying to approach with an aerial. So by that rule, dair is always the right choice below knockdown% because it can't be true cc'd. Yet, someone who knows that may start jumping into those dairs to allow them to get to the ground and be actionable before you. In that case, nair becomes a better choice even though it breaks the initial rule.
I'm maybe assuming too much by calling that a rule or a law, but I think it serves my point well enough. How do you separate the logical and numerical rules of the game from the sandbox attributes that allow human freedom in it?
Again, this is all 10k-ft theory and I know that there's gonna be a whole lot of "well, it depends on x, y, and z" in considering a response. I'm stuck at the point where I feel I may have gotten something wrong in my initial, early understanding of the rules of the game, and so I'm trying to correct that understanding retroactively. Any advice you've got here is appreciated.
PS I hope you're happy and healthy and feeling good about life. We miss you out here <3
Dr Peepee
let's talk about some ten-thousand foot theory for a minute.I've been playing almost five years now, and there are parts of my game that have gotten very well-defined. Most notably, I've developed a pretty good bait game and quite a bit of speed in the micro mixup game. But occasionally I'll come across a player who has maybe two years experience under their belt, but for some reason they're tuned into the way the game works better than I've managed to get to in my whole run. They know when to go for moves that knockdown, they know how to cover options in a really safe, psychologically rattling, and punishing way, they're able to get inside my head and tell when I'm doing an option that works in 95% of neutral interactions but isn't going to work against them, etc. There's also the added benefit that everyone learns how to kill Falco in their first year, so mistakes in neutral are much more easily punished. So there's clearly a fundamental difference between the way I'm viewing the game and the way some of these upstarts are, but I'm struggling to understand what that difference is.
Which brings me to the original question. You've told me in the past that Melee is defined by a certain set of rules, and that understanding those rules is what it means to understand Melee's fundamentals. Are those rules numerable, meaning it's something you could come up with a "list of things to keep in mind"? Is that a list a mile long, or are there some basic rules a Falco player should always try to incorporate in their gameplan? Furthermore, how do you reconcile the rules of Melee the game with the trends of human behavior?
To this last question, an example. One of the rules of Melee, I would imagine, is that you have to account for crouch cancelling %s if you're trying to approach with an aerial. So by that rule, dair is always the right choice below knockdown% because it can't be true cc'd. Yet, someone who knows that may start jumping into those dairs to allow them to get to the ground and be actionable before you. In that case, nair becomes a better choice even though it breaks the initial rule.
I'm maybe assuming too much by calling that a rule or a law, but I think it serves my point well enough. How do you separate the logical and numerical rules of the game from the sandbox attributes that allow human freedom in it?
Again, this is all 10k-ft theory and I know that there's gonna be a whole lot of "well, it depends on x, y, and z" in considering a response. I'm stuck at the point where I feel I may have gotten something wrong in my initial, early understanding of the rules of the game, and so I'm trying to correct that understanding retroactively. Any advice you've got here is appreciated.
PS I hope you're happy and healthy and feeling good about life. We miss you out here <3
Sorry PP I'll be more specific
When I said laser earlier I meant I stood on the opposite platform and used my gun. This sheik wouldn't go on the ground unless I had the lead no matter how many times I used my gun on the opposite platform.
List of options
Laser on other side of the platform
Go on top platform
Stay grounded
When I tried to laser on the side platform he wouldn't budge. If we were even or if I was losing he would stay on the platform. The only time he left when I had a lead
So I tried to stay grounded. List of options grounded
Yoshi's
Jump shine
Uptilt
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full Hop options
Battlefield/Pokémon
Jump shine
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full hop options
Dreamland
Jump Shine
Up-air
Short Double Jump
Fullhop Options
Uptilt actually worked okay but only reaches on Yoshi's
I actually didn't realize short hop bair reached on battlefield and pokemon. Gotta try that!
Upsmash I would sometimes do and it was okay combo wise but required a hard read with his platform movement and Idk if its worth it.. And just getting in that range is risky. Short hop up-air I tried but didn't seem to net much combo wise as sheik is so lite. Didn't try faking double jump not sure why. Full hop is reactable as if I instant dair he techs and if I delay he would f-tilt before I could laser and out space the dair.
Maybe I could see when these attacks combo to see when its best to use them ill try labbing that out
Do use Fullhop bair at higher percent and sometimes at lower percent. The problem with full hop bair was lower percent S/he would wave das and hold crouch so generally speaking the bair wiffed or he crouched and punished me. At higher percent it was great
I tried dash dancing under the platform but again the sheik didn't really move. Sometimes the sheik would shield drop but so rarely I just couldn't get a read. Sheik did hit me a lot out of my dash dance. Maybe I could try wavedash back?
Okay top playform options
Run off Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Short hop Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Wave dash off (Didn't think of)
Double jump fake (Didn't do as short hop is reactable I assumed this would be to but maybe I should lab)
Run off Aerial he would go space far enough so I was out of reach (Could try walk of pivot bair off plat to extend that reach just thought of that)
If I did run off laser he just took the laser and forward tilt (Admittedly maybe I have extreme frame advantage here I'm not sure)
Tried baiting short hop into double jump aerial but if I insta daired he teched and if I delayed he just hit me with upair or shielded. DJ bair worked good though
A big problem here is I am out played in the close up neutral from my inability to punish options oos. Maybe I'm not good enough at mixing things up. Also attack after a laser seems to be a problem. But a lot of these situations feel 50/50's that benefit sheik because of I believe she pun,ishes Falco harder. If you fall off platform and laser I believe your frame advantage isn't great enough to net you anything guaranteed. 8 Frames of hitstun. This doesn't include the amount of time it takes falco to land and get to sheik. One cool thing is I suppose you could do a yolo F-smash which is cool. Maybe 7 mix ups in this situation. Laser again, Fsmash, Aerial, Run Shine, Grab, Sheild, Crouch. Depending on percent Ftilt beats laser, fsmash, and aerial maybe crouch. If you get a grab or shine on shield your punish doesn't seem that great whereas if he ftilts that punish is more severe Just feels like its a few 50/50s that net sheik more because more because her combo game is harder. Need to flesh out neutral more but basically he was beating me with ftilt on top plat cause I cant waveshine oos (A weakness on my part)
I feel like staying grounded is better option because of jump shine. And bair to get pressure. Still feel as if sheik has advantage. I don't mean this in a negative way I just feel as if I'm wrong but don't know why. When I see top players I almost never see falcos punish Puff or sheik on platforms although I don't see a lot of camping either and feel as if it was that good m2k would be living on the platforms lol. Anyways these are my thoughts.
Because lasering on other plat only works if your in the lead that doesn't work. It feels as if attacking from top platform could put you in a 50/50 but isn't a good idea as sheik combos hard and honestly could herself shield drop putting falco in a tough spot (Attacking form top plat isn't unwinnable just doesn't seem optimal) or you could attack from ground which seems best. Basic mixup seems to be Jump shine. Sheik tries to attack your jump shine as you have to get into sheiks shield drop fair range in order for it to work. Full hop bair seems really good to at lower percents as well as higher percent. Not sure if sheik can attack a missed jump shine as you can upsmash double jump grab jump laser wavedash off ect. Sorry this went from what I was struggling with one player to me trying just to lab out the neutral in this situation
So I guess my question is did after trying to figure this out, I get anything wrong Anything you disagree with. Anything I missed. Anything else that could be labbed. Assuming this sheik is the campiest Sheik on the planet does Sheik have the advantage. Why or why not? What would you do if a sheik was platform camping. Feels like shining the sheik and bating out a shield drop is only option which I guess seems obvious. I'm starting to think my problem is I just don't know how to fight sheik at close range. After looking at this it feels as if Falco wins this situation as fair off plat nets less than if falco jump shines as even if that doesn't combo it leaves sheik vulerable. Feels like I'm missing some things as i'm extremely scatter brained
Things I need to lab.
1. If falco lasers sheik on a platform what are the neutral mixups when after falco lasers sheik .What is falcos frame advantage and how could he take advantage of that. Need to figure out the neutral based on percents and spacing so I can say definitively if falco or sheik has an advantage or disadvantage after falco lasers sheik and their both on same platform next to each other.
2. When can falco combo sheik with upsmash. Can sheik punish if it misses?
3. Pivot bair off platform
4. Can Sheik react to double jumps from ground
5. Short hop bair on ground on battlefield, pokemon, yoshis
Anything else I have to lab?
Sorry If this post was too scatter brained. This was really hard. Thank you for encouraging me to try to work this out and walking me through this. Tried to make it as coherent and cohesive as my writing (and thinking) abilities would allow. Was this post too long? I think you made me realize I kinda know what im looking for but not exactly which would be useful when asking for help to figure out specific situations. Should write things out like this to myself to gather my thoughts. Thank you for at least taking the time to read this much appreciated. - pman
When I said laser earlier I meant I stood on the opposite platform and used my gun. This sheik wouldn't go on the ground unless I had the lead no matter how many times I used my gun on the opposite platform.
List of options
Laser on other side of the platform
Go on top platform
Stay grounded
When I tried to laser on the side platform he wouldn't budge. If we were even or if I was losing he would stay on the platform. The only time he left when I had a lead
So I tried to stay grounded. List of options grounded
Yoshi's
Jump shine
Uptilt
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full Hop options
Battlefield/Pokémon
Jump shine
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full hop options
Dreamland
Jump Shine
Up-air
Short Double Jump
Fullhop Options
Uptilt actually worked okay but only reaches on Yoshi's
I actually didn't realize short hop bair reached on battlefield and pokemon. Gotta try that!
Upsmash I would sometimes do and it was okay combo wise but required a hard read with his platform movement and Idk if its worth it.. And just getting in that range is risky. Short hop up-air I tried but didn't seem to net much combo wise as sheik is so lite. Didn't try faking double jump not sure why. Full hop is reactable as if I instant dair he techs and if I delay he would f-tilt before I could laser and out space the dair.
Maybe I could see when these attacks combo to see when its best to use them ill try labbing that out
Do use Fullhop bair at higher percent and sometimes at lower percent. The problem with full hop bair was lower percent S/he would wave das and hold crouch so generally speaking the bair wiffed or he crouched and punished me. At higher percent it was great
I tried dash dancing under the platform but again the sheik didn't really move. Sometimes the sheik would shield drop but so rarely I just couldn't get a read. Sheik did hit me a lot out of my dash dance. Maybe I could try wavedash back?
Okay top playform options
Run off Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Short hop Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Wave dash off (Didn't think of)
Double jump fake (Didn't do as short hop is reactable I assumed this would be to but maybe I should lab)
Run off Aerial he would go space far enough so I was out of reach (Could try walk of pivot bair off plat to extend that reach just thought of that)
If I did run off laser he just took the laser and forward tilt (Admittedly maybe I have extreme frame advantage here I'm not sure)
Tried baiting short hop into double jump aerial but if I insta daired he teched and if I delayed he just hit me with upair or shielded. DJ bair worked good though
A big problem here is I am out played in the close up neutral from my inability to punish options oos. Maybe I'm not good enough at mixing things up. Also attack after a laser seems to be a problem. But a lot of these situations feel 50/50's that benefit sheik because of I believe she pun,ishes Falco harder. If you fall off platform and laser I believe your frame advantage isn't great enough to net you anything guaranteed. 8 Frames of hitstun. This doesn't include the amount of time it takes falco to land and get to sheik. One cool thing is I suppose you could do a yolo F-smash which is cool. Maybe 7 mix ups in this situation. Laser again, Fsmash, Aerial, Run Shine, Grab, Sheild, Crouch. Depending on percent Ftilt beats laser, fsmash, and aerial maybe crouch. If you get a grab or shine on shield your punish doesn't seem that great whereas if he ftilts that punish is more severe Just feels like its a few 50/50s that net sheik more because more because her combo game is harder. Need to flesh out neutral more but basically he was beating me with ftilt on top plat cause I cant waveshine oos (A weakness on my part)
I feel like staying grounded is better option because of jump shine. And bair to get pressure. Still feel as if sheik has advantage. I don't mean this in a negative way I just feel as if I'm wrong but don't know why. When I see top players I almost never see falcos punish Puff or sheik on platforms although I don't see a lot of camping either and feel as if it was that good m2k would be living on the platforms lol. Anyways these are my thoughts.
Because lasering on other plat only works if your in the lead that doesn't work. It feels as if attacking from top platform could put you in a 50/50 but isn't a good idea as sheik combos hard and honestly could herself shield drop putting falco in a tough spot (Attacking form top plat isn't unwinnable just doesn't seem optimal) or you could attack from ground which seems best. Basic mixup seems to be Jump shine. Sheik tries to attack your jump shine as you have to get into sheiks shield drop fair range in order for it to work. Full hop bair seems really good to at lower percents as well as higher percent. Not sure if sheik can attack a missed jump shine as you can upsmash double jump grab jump laser wavedash off ect. Sorry this went from what I was struggling with one player to me trying just to lab out the neutral in this situation
So I guess my question is did after trying to figure this out, I get anything wrong Anything you disagree with. Anything I missed. Anything else that could be labbed. Assuming this sheik is the campiest Sheik on the planet does Sheik have the advantage. Why or why not? What would you do if a sheik was platform camping. Feels like shining the sheik and bating out a shield drop is only option which I guess seems obvious. I'm starting to think my problem is I just don't know how to fight sheik at close range. After looking at this it feels as if Falco wins this situation as fair off plat nets less than if falco jump shines as even if that doesn't combo it leaves sheik vulerable. Feels like I'm missing some things as i'm extremely scatter brained
Things I need to lab.
1. If falco lasers sheik on a platform what are the neutral mixups when after falco lasers sheik .What is falcos frame advantage and how could he take advantage of that. Need to figure out the neutral based on percents and spacing so I can say definitively if falco or sheik has an advantage or disadvantage after falco lasers sheik and their both on same platform next to each other.
2. When can falco combo sheik with upsmash. Can sheik punish if it misses?
3. Pivot bair off platform
4. Can Sheik react to double jumps from ground
5. Short hop bair on ground on battlefield, pokemon, yoshis
Anything else I have to lab?
Sorry If this post was too scatter brained. This was really hard. Thank you for encouraging me to try to work this out and walking me through this. Tried to make it as coherent and cohesive as my writing (and thinking) abilities would allow. Was this post too long? I think you made me realize I kinda know what im looking for but not exactly which would be useful when asking for help to figure out specific situations. Should write things out like this to myself to gather my thoughts. Thank you for at least taking the time to read this much appreciated. - pman
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Oh **** shield drop laser from top platform is really good. You can legit go to the very edge of the platform or mix it up with lasering and falling to the ground. Being able to mix up laser with dair and seeing as you can dash dance on top plat seems good. They could upair or fair possibly nair. Idk but another possibility. I'm starting to think that maybe I just didn't think it through enough as if they get too close you can dash dance back and bair.
Players have access to sooo many more tools now than they did 5 years ago. But despite that, some may be more motivated or applying more of these fundamentals. So I do think it's worth talking about.Hey
I've been playing almost five years now, and there are parts of my game that have gotten very well-defined. Most notably, I've developed a pretty good bait game and quite a bit of speed in the micro mixup game. But occasionally I'll come across a player who has maybe two years experience under their belt, but for some reason they're tuned into the way the game works better than I've managed to get to in my whole run. They know when to go for moves that knockdown, they know how to cover options in a really safe, psychologically rattling, and punishing way, they're able to get inside my head and tell when I'm doing an option that works in 95% of neutral interactions but isn't going to work against them, etc. There's also the added benefit that everyone learns how to kill Falco in their first year, so mistakes in neutral are much more easily punished. So there's clearly a fundamental difference between the way I'm viewing the game and the way some of these upstarts are, but I'm struggling to understand what that difference is.
Which brings me to the original question. You've told me in the past that Melee is defined by a certain set of rules, and that understanding those rules is what it means to understand Melee's fundamentals. Are those rules numerable, meaning it's something you could come up with a "list of things to keep in mind"? Is that a list a mile long, or are there some basic rules a Falco player should always try to incorporate in their gameplan? Furthermore, how do you reconcile the rules of Melee the game with the trends of human behavior?
To this last question, an example. One of the rules of Melee, I would imagine, is that you have to account for crouch cancelling %s if you're trying to approach with an aerial. So by that rule, dair is always the right choice below knockdown% because it can't be true cc'd. Yet, someone who knows that may start jumping into those dairs to allow them to get to the ground and be actionable before you. In that case, nair becomes a better choice even though it breaks the initial rule.
I'm maybe assuming too much by calling that a rule or a law, but I think it serves my point well enough. How do you separate the logical and numerical rules of the game from the sandbox attributes that allow human freedom in it?
Again, this is all 10k-ft theory and I know that there's gonna be a whole lot of "well, it depends on x, y, and z" in considering a response. I'm stuck at the point where I feel I may have gotten something wrong in my initial, early understanding of the rules of the game, and so I'm trying to correct that understanding retroactively. Any advice you've got here is appreciated.
PS I hope you're happy and healthy and feeling good about life. We miss you out here <3
Falco follows less rules than say Marth does as Falco is a much more complicated character. I still think I could distill his rules, but I haven't been able to do so by this time. There are general things though as you mention like not doing high aerials vs crouch or shield, not overlasering/moving(keep it simple), push opponents up and out or into easy tech chase areas and get as many 50/50s as you can, and so on. And exceptions exist as you said, such as with keeping it simple. Sometimes you want to move more or wait longer to be defensive or draw out a position to mentally tax your opponent. There are ways to do this while keeping it simple, though it can make this harder. As you can see, rules are much better to think of as a guideline for growth. Once you get better/internalize a rule, that's when you can begin breaking it. That doesn't mean the rule is useless though. And for humans, they will understand these rules in their own way, or apply their intersections in their own ways. Some players may give up stage on purpose when the opponent is cornered at high percent so they can land an Fsmash, while another may rush down with the first opening they see to keep the opponent from thinking clearly about the situation and secure an easier kill than normal. They are both abusing stage positioning and the percent game as well as conditioning, but one is perhaps breaking the rule of stage control a bit more by giving up stage. However this demonstrates the players' knowledge of stage positioning if he can use the pressure well. So, the rules are not so constricting I think.
I miss everyone so very terribly. I'll get there man.
I'd recommend faking with grounded lasers some, especially when combined with dashes. If Sheik stops trying to punish your dash in, you can do that for free more. Also if Sheik just holds shield when you get near, you can begin sharking with Bair/Uair especially if you mix in some waiting so the poke is easier. Also, FH/DJ drift away Bair will probably do you a lot of good as it is a safe poke and should be able to shield stab decently. If you're wrong or just hit shield, no big deal you can play from the top platform then and now Sheik has a smaller shield. If you hit then even at low percent Sheik takes a lot of damage, and pushing her to mid percent can start forcing her off the platform with a hit so she won't want that. If she's not hitting you but you're hitting her, who is going to be enjoying that position? Once you start hitting those Bairs and Dairs you can begin experimenting with how to make more of an advantage out of it.Sorry PP I'll be more specific
When I said laser earlier I meant I stood on the opposite platform and used my gun. This sheik wouldn't go on the ground unless I had the lead no matter how many times I used my gun on the opposite platform.
List of options
Laser on other side of the platform
Go on top platform
Stay grounded
When I tried to laser on the side platform he wouldn't budge. If we were even or if I was losing he would stay on the platform. The only time he left when I had a lead
So I tried to stay grounded. List of options grounded
Yoshi's
Jump shine
Uptilt
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full Hop options
Battlefield/Pokémon
Jump shine
Upsmash
Short hop bair
Short hop up-air
Short Double Jump
Full hop options
Dreamland
Jump Shine
Up-air
Short Double Jump
Fullhop Options
Uptilt actually worked okay but only reaches on Yoshi's
I actually didn't realize short hop bair reached on battlefield and pokemon. Gotta try that!
Upsmash I would sometimes do and it was okay combo wise but required a hard read with his platform movement and Idk if its worth it.. And just getting in that range is risky. Short hop up-air I tried but didn't seem to net much combo wise as sheik is so lite. Didn't try faking double jump not sure why. Full hop is reactable as if I instant dair he techs and if I delay he would f-tilt before I could laser and out space the dair.
Maybe I could see when these attacks combo to see when its best to use them ill try labbing that out
Do use Fullhop bair at higher percent and sometimes at lower percent. The problem with full hop bair was lower percent S/he would wave das and hold crouch so generally speaking the bair wiffed or he crouched and punished me. At higher percent it was great
I tried dash dancing under the platform but again the sheik didn't really move. Sometimes the sheik would shield drop but so rarely I just couldn't get a read. Sheik did hit me a lot out of my dash dance. Maybe I could try wavedash back?
Okay top playform options
Run off Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Short hop Aerial/Laser/Emptyland
Wave dash off (Didn't think of)
Double jump fake (Didn't do as short hop is reactable I assumed this would be to but maybe I should lab)
Run off Aerial he would go space far enough so I was out of reach (Could try walk of pivot bair off plat to extend that reach just thought of that)
If I did run off laser he just took the laser and forward tilt (Admittedly maybe I have extreme frame advantage here I'm not sure)
Tried baiting short hop into double jump aerial but if I insta daired he teched and if I delayed he just hit me with upair or shielded. DJ bair worked good though
A big problem here is I am out played in the close up neutral from my inability to punish options oos. Maybe I'm not good enough at mixing things up. Also attack after a laser seems to be a problem. But a lot of these situations feel 50/50's that benefit sheik because of I believe she pun,ishes Falco harder. If you fall off platform and laser I believe your frame advantage isn't great enough to net you anything guaranteed. 8 Frames of hitstun. This doesn't include the amount of time it takes falco to land and get to sheik. One cool thing is I suppose you could do a yolo F-smash which is cool. Maybe 7 mix ups in this situation. Laser again, Fsmash, Aerial, Run Shine, Grab, Sheild, Crouch. Depending on percent Ftilt beats laser, fsmash, and aerial maybe crouch. If you get a grab or shine on shield your punish doesn't seem that great whereas if he ftilts that punish is more severe Just feels like its a few 50/50s that net sheik more because more because her combo game is harder. Need to flesh out neutral more but basically he was beating me with ftilt on top plat cause I cant waveshine oos (A weakness on my part)
I feel like staying grounded is better option because of jump shine. And bair to get pressure. Still feel as if sheik has advantage. I don't mean this in a negative way I just feel as if I'm wrong but don't know why. When I see top players I almost never see falcos punish Puff or sheik on platforms although I don't see a lot of camping either and feel as if it was that good m2k would be living on the platforms lol. Anyways these are my thoughts.
Because lasering on other plat only works if your in the lead that doesn't work. It feels as if attacking from top platform could put you in a 50/50 but isn't a good idea as sheik combos hard and honestly could herself shield drop putting falco in a tough spot (Attacking form top plat isn't unwinnable just doesn't seem optimal) or you could attack from ground which seems best. Basic mixup seems to be Jump shine. Sheik tries to attack your jump shine as you have to get into sheiks shield drop fair range in order for it to work. Full hop bair seems really good to at lower percents as well as higher percent. Not sure if sheik can attack a missed jump shine as you can upsmash double jump grab jump laser wavedash off ect. Sorry this went from what I was struggling with one player to me trying just to lab out the neutral in this situation
So I guess my question is did after trying to figure this out, I get anything wrong Anything you disagree with. Anything I missed. Anything else that could be labbed. Assuming this sheik is the campiest Sheik on the planet does Sheik have the advantage. Why or why not? What would you do if a sheik was platform camping. Feels like shining the sheik and bating out a shield drop is only option which I guess seems obvious. I'm starting to think my problem is I just don't know how to fight sheik at close range. After looking at this it feels as if Falco wins this situation as fair off plat nets less than if falco jump shines as even if that doesn't combo it leaves sheik vulerable. Feels like I'm missing some things as i'm extremely scatter brained
Things I need to lab.
1. If falco lasers sheik on a platform what are the neutral mixups when after falco lasers sheik .What is falcos frame advantage and how could he take advantage of that. Need to figure out the neutral based on percents and spacing so I can say definitively if falco or sheik has an advantage or disadvantage after falco lasers sheik and their both on same platform next to each other.
2. When can falco combo sheik with upsmash. Can sheik punish if it misses?
3. Pivot bair off platform
4. Can Sheik react to double jumps from ground
5. Short hop bair on ground on battlefield, pokemon, yoshis
Anything else I have to lab?
Sorry If this post was too scatter brained. This was really hard. Thank you for encouraging me to try to work this out and walking me through this. Tried to make it as coherent and cohesive as my writing (and thinking) abilities would allow. Was this post too long? I think you made me realize I kinda know what im looking for but not exactly which would be useful when asking for help to figure out specific situations. Should write things out like this to myself to gather my thoughts. Thank you for at least taking the time to read this much appreciated. - pman
If you grab Sheik's shield, just throw her up or offstage. Both are pretty bad for her. Up you can Bair/Utilt her great and she can't move around it or put out good moves below her. Edge it's just hard for her to get onstage.
Spacing your landings on some of the big platforms outside of her shield drop aerial range can also let you harass her with grab or Bair/Nair or other moves you mentioned.
Yep and I'm sure the more you begin testing the more good stuff you'll find. Keep it going man.
Thank you so much for replying I really appreciate it. You really motivate me to think deeper than I might have, believe it or not you have had one of the biggest impacts on helping me with my depression. I still have much to work on inside and outside of melee but your for sure one of my small time heroes. I stopped playing melee 2 years ago (I wasn't good) to work on various things that I heard from you and the melee community. The fact that you reply really lights up my day. I hope you get better soon pp as you helped make me better with both my mental, physical and cognitive health although I still have a long way to go
on a side note might make a compilation of PP posts that are useful from the falco boards. A lot of it is repeated information as new players such as myself ask old questions. You my friend have the patience of a god (no pun intended) Do you think that it would be beneficial to this forum to post a link if I made this. I could sort through the overlap and organize per category such as character
Also I have just one more question before I leave you alone for a few days. How do you define rhythm. When I looked into past posts the definition seemed a little vague and hard to follow which makes sense seeing as how complex neutral is. If you do reply I'll wait to respond a few days to give you a break from my ranting and try to work as much of it out as I can and create a more thoughtful post as I'm working on rhythm and threats. The reason why I'm so curious about rhythm is because I know from boxing that rhythm and threats are related. But that's an intuitive feeling and note something I can well define.
Oh and if you haven't watched gingers bird call its amazing Thanks so much I went from a bronze one to a silver one after reading these forums and I feel like when I work on my tech I could be plat soon as neutral is def my strong suit. All thanks to you - pman
on a side note might make a compilation of PP posts that are useful from the falco boards. A lot of it is repeated information as new players such as myself ask old questions. You my friend have the patience of a god (no pun intended) Do you think that it would be beneficial to this forum to post a link if I made this. I could sort through the overlap and organize per category such as character
Also I have just one more question before I leave you alone for a few days. How do you define rhythm. When I looked into past posts the definition seemed a little vague and hard to follow which makes sense seeing as how complex neutral is. If you do reply I'll wait to respond a few days to give you a break from my ranting and try to work as much of it out as I can and create a more thoughtful post as I'm working on rhythm and threats. The reason why I'm so curious about rhythm is because I know from boxing that rhythm and threats are related. But that's an intuitive feeling and note something I can well define.
Oh and if you haven't watched gingers bird call its amazing Thanks so much I went from a bronze one to a silver one after reading these forums and I feel like when I work on my tech I could be plat soon as neutral is def my strong suit. All thanks to you - pman
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Yeah, and in fact another player went through the Marth forums a few months ago and compiled good posts for everyone. People were quite happy to have that resource.
I'd say rhythm is a natural flow every player has in terms of their option selection. So a calm person may have a slower rhythm and use more WD and FH and maybe be more willing to play defense, while an anxious or aggressive person is more likely to use shorter dashes and SHs and such. Part of the game is getting the other player to follow your rhythm, or to make them think you are following theirs.
I have watched bird call.
I am honestly super happy to have helped you so much man since that's very very important to me. Best of luck with everything else you work on =)
I'd say rhythm is a natural flow every player has in terms of their option selection. So a calm person may have a slower rhythm and use more WD and FH and maybe be more willing to play defense, while an anxious or aggressive person is more likely to use shorter dashes and SHs and such. Part of the game is getting the other player to follow your rhythm, or to make them think you are following theirs.
I have watched bird call.
I am honestly super happy to have helped you so much man since that's very very important to me. Best of luck with everything else you work on =)
Smog
Smash Journeyman
Is there a "best option" for when pikachu back throws you off stage? I always end up getting gimped. I try to mix it up with a shine stall into side-b/up-b, immediate jump side-b, and go low up-b. Is there an option that seems to work more than others? Or should I just focus on mixing it up.
Barron
Smash Rookie
Have you tried using double jump air dodge? Works wonders against setups like puff back throw as well
Immediate double jump dair is dope but it can be risky if they're at low percent/ it trades etc. I've killed myself going for it when I get sent to far away to recover LOL
MambaGreenFalco
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2017
- Messages
- 179
So when I'm dashing towards the Peach while dding, I'm threatening pivot bair and full hop nair? But when I'm dashing away I'm threatening turn around laser and sh bair, right? So how can I set myself up in a position to set up with my back turned to them to start threatening my bair? Wd seems like the easiest way to do that, maybe I could take advantage of the fact that Peach players only commit at the beginning and end of their float? Btw when you said that they never commit in the middle of the float it totally clicked in my head, but I had never verbalized that. How did you come to find that out and why do you think that is?
I'm noticing that I'm struggling with the transition between facing towards the opponent and facing away from the opponent, even though the turning animation is only 5 frames, lol, cause I had the same problem with Falcon and the threat of his nair. I guess I find it kind of awkward because against DA (marth sheik) you have to dash away pivot dair but against diagonal opponents (peach float, sheik on side plat) pivot bair is super strong, and I'm not super comfortable applying pivots in game. Maybe pivots are the answer but are there any other ways I can think about it. Not really sure what my question is here, I feel like I might not be articulating my problem exactly the way I want.
Experimenting more with the FD follow ups after dair starts knocking down, I found my sh nair is even more useful, but it completely depends on when I do it. There's cute stuff like super early sh nair and then you hit them right before they get out of hit stun you get the super soft hit, which tends to either get a comfortable tech chase because you can time your wd forward/dash forward with when they hit the ground so you can react to no tech/tech in place or tech roll and not get hit by getup attack. Or it sets up for another nair which normally leads to the 50/50 you like between an edgeguard situation or an easy tech chase in the corner.
https://vods.co/v/rkhwqf
At 2:32, Ginger runs up with laser and cc. Despite the fact that sheik does poorly against cc, I've found that it's actually not that effective because Falco only has 4 imo options that all have specific applications, d tilt, up smash, jab, and shine. But when the sheik is also at low percent, shine is the best option against cc but their fair pushes you away, so your shine can't hit because you're facing them instead of away from them. next is d tilt but it comes out on frame 8 and has lots of end lag, while up smash and jab are bad at low percent. So it feels like the mixup is in sheik's favor even after a cc at 0 because of her cc dmash, frame 5 tilts, and shield nair oos. I understand ginger's intention to use laser cc to get under swedish to set up a jump shine, but even that isn't that great against her amazing nair oos and shield drop game. So I guess I'm asking about both the interactions at low percent with cc and if it even is effective how ginger could have better used the positional advantage.
At 3:25, swedish rolls towards Ginger, Ginger goes in with a sh, but he gets stuffed by Swedish's full hop bair. At this shffl spacing, I'm really not sure what to do here because you either get stuffed by an aerial oos or get grabbed maybe? So the options that come to mind are jump passed their shield without doing anything and keep walking for a bit (into maybe laser or full hop or fh waveland to side platform or sh spaced bair on shield etc) or you just do a super early aerial that's shieldgrabable (maybe?). I guess in this position I'm assuming you have full or most momentum going forward, or you could just try to pull back and do a late dair into shine grab or shine wd back or something which is probably one of the better options in this situation but I'm more curious about this spacing with the Falco's momentum going full forward.
After getting baired what should he have done? Imo he should have just kept it simple and reset the situation with a dash away wait or dash away laser.
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Yes, but not always. Sometimes you can't get a good juggle out of Uthrow such as at low percent when you're on the edge of a side platform and she DIs to center. Also I think there are some times where Fthrow is okay/good but I don't remember the situations/percents right now.
do you think if a falco is very good at juggling peach then doing lots of upthrows is fine?
What about puff?
Even if a falco is good at juggling should he still be prioritiznig hard outplays to land aerials?
Puff it's harder since she has those jumps, so sometimes I will just opt to throw her toward the corner since she will probably jump anyway and potentially be in a worse position. I prefer Fthrow for this more than Bthrow as Bthrow laser SDI can be kind of dumb. Uthrow near the edge if they can go over you is also not usually worth it to me since I'd rather take the edgeguard opportunity than giving them all of that stage back potentially(harder to punish when they get free center even if they are high).
That's kind of player/situation dependent imo. I think there's no point in overdoing it and making it harder than it has to be, so landing aerials/shines is just more straightforward. Hitting those makes people shield more, which you can then grab more. You can also go the other direction with it, and you can also include neutral factors in your decision-making.
You also may be threatening SH Fair with your dash in. Yeah the WD idea isn't bad, but it is quite easy to see coming so you'd need to WD then not jump in a decent amount to mix it up. The float thing I got from thinking about timings, putting myself in the Peach's shoes, and generally just really breaking down positions. I wouldn't say I found it quickly at all lol. Peaches may also just throw a move if you get near them since they can't weave so well, that's the other major thing to consider.
Weak SH Nair? Not sure I've seen that knocking down in the way you describe, I'd have to see a video of it.
He might have been so close he could have hit Sheik as she fell on him or still maybe been close enough to hit shine as he moved away. Not sure though I never try it there. Anyway yeah vs late Fair you have the options you listed and Ftilt/maybe DA. That's all not great vs her late Fair but vs her tilts or early aerials it's great. Ginger did get Swedish to move, so I'd wager that it's something for Sheik to be concerned about, especially if he mixed in Utilt there. If he can jump shine with some reactions or dash back shine that could help catch people moving away.
Going frame by frame, looks like if he just put an aerial out he'd have been fine. Hitting Sheik's back here even with a mid aerial should be alright since she can't do much OOS. You could just slight laser forward/laser in place and dash in wd down/dash back to scout what they wanted to do if you were concerned I suppose.
MambaGreenFalco
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2017
- Messages
- 179
When you say that you really break down positions, what does that entail? Is it a whole process of understanding each interaction and coming up with new ideas and then testing them in friendlies? Or can you come to the "right" conclusion during your process of testing alone. How did you test stuff without the help of 20xx? I guess as you get better and better at the game your knowledge of how hitboxes interact gets better which I find is what 20xx is super useful for. How long would you spend on a certain position?
Yeah sorry the weak SH nair can commonly lead well into DA which sets up for a comfortable tech chase. I was mixing it up with the nair that sets up for a tech chase that tends to be at mid-high percents and comes from the mid-strong hit.
I tested it and sheik can barely move horizontally when falling from the side plat to the ground. Maybe in that cc position ginger positioned himself such that it would be hard for swedish to shield drop and fade back enough to space the fair. So I guess the idea is to get right under them when you cc so they can't space their bair or their fair.
What does it mean to have laser control?
What does it mean to lose laser control?
What does it mean to gain laser control?
How do those definitions apply to the sheik matchup?
How can you pressure sheik in the corner? Seems really hard to me. The only thing that comes to mind is maybe drift forward bair, but I've never really been a fan of drifting forward with defensive short hop aerials. Because of this, I've also run into the problem of not really knowing how to slowly gain stage against sheik. For that do you just mix up fade back aerials with lasers in place and slight lasers forward?
If I dash back against Sheik, and she short hop fade forwards, can I commit more to my sh bair by drifting in a little? Or will I just get shield grabbed? Or maybe f tilted? Because of this I've begun to be more wary of my dash backs against her, because it feels like I either give her that stage control for free or I have to go in with a hard commit cross up nair or something similar. I've begun looking for more ways to win stage control and prevent sheik's from taking my stage control because the more I learn about this matchup the harder it seems for either character to get a meaningful opening. But I guess that's true for every matchup as you get better.
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Hi PP hope your doing well
I've been working on watching my opponent recently. Results have been amazing. I find my low level everyone has various habits
Falcons attack from far ranges and when they grab they run closer. So with each dash he makes you know what hes going to do
Sheiks tend to run straight towards without mixing up wavedash back ect. ect.
Theirs tons of other things I'm starting to realize. The problem is when I look at my opponent I cant keep my eyes focused without getting a little dizzy. Melee isn't like other fighting games I find it too fast. I've always had problems such as not being able to read in the car because when I focus my eyes on movement I feel sick sadly.
I've been told to look at my opponent every top player says this however I'm not sure if I'm taking this too literally. My question is
1. Should you watch the opponent or the space in front of your opponent or both. When looking at other professional gamers it seems as if they look at the space directly in front of the opponent. It seems like their focusing more on the spacing between the two characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmAwAefKZ8o&t=97s admittedly their are times when they look at the opponent. I suspect when they are looking directly at their opponent when their opponets options are limited and they are looking for specific responses to react to.
2. How do you visually track your oppoenent. Does the way you track your opponent change when your fatigued. This is something I've been thinking about as I have medical problems so conserving energy is extremely important for me although I suspect its important for top players nonetheless
3. I find I cant keep up with my opponent eye wise. If I try it hurts as I mentioned above. Others have this skill that I don't. Even in a car I cant focus on the moving objects around without getting dizzy. My eyesight though is 20/20. Do you have any suggestions on how I could deal with this?
4. Mang0 says in teams he looks at the center of the stage. Do you think that this would be optimal in teams at least
5. I've heard you should look at your opponent and just know where you are. Do you do this through peripheral vision. Or do you just know? Sounds silly but important
6. I understand the reason for stage bans such as rainbow cruise (Who ever was the asshole who got that banned sarcastic laugh) but say if two falcon mains wanted to go on rainbow cruise. Say they both agreed to the stage and characters. No blind character pick or blind stage pick just an agreement. Why couldn't they do that in a tournament at a major. Or could they and players just don't. What are your thoughts on that possibility?
Thank you very much. I love you PP! Hope your getting better
I've been working on watching my opponent recently. Results have been amazing. I find my low level everyone has various habits
Falcons attack from far ranges and when they grab they run closer. So with each dash he makes you know what hes going to do
Sheiks tend to run straight towards without mixing up wavedash back ect. ect.
Theirs tons of other things I'm starting to realize. The problem is when I look at my opponent I cant keep my eyes focused without getting a little dizzy. Melee isn't like other fighting games I find it too fast. I've always had problems such as not being able to read in the car because when I focus my eyes on movement I feel sick sadly.
I've been told to look at my opponent every top player says this however I'm not sure if I'm taking this too literally. My question is
1. Should you watch the opponent or the space in front of your opponent or both. When looking at other professional gamers it seems as if they look at the space directly in front of the opponent. It seems like their focusing more on the spacing between the two characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmAwAefKZ8o&t=97s admittedly their are times when they look at the opponent. I suspect when they are looking directly at their opponent when their opponets options are limited and they are looking for specific responses to react to.
2. How do you visually track your oppoenent. Does the way you track your opponent change when your fatigued. This is something I've been thinking about as I have medical problems so conserving energy is extremely important for me although I suspect its important for top players nonetheless
3. I find I cant keep up with my opponent eye wise. If I try it hurts as I mentioned above. Others have this skill that I don't. Even in a car I cant focus on the moving objects around without getting dizzy. My eyesight though is 20/20. Do you have any suggestions on how I could deal with this?
4. Mang0 says in teams he looks at the center of the stage. Do you think that this would be optimal in teams at least
5. I've heard you should look at your opponent and just know where you are. Do you do this through peripheral vision. Or do you just know? Sounds silly but important
6. I understand the reason for stage bans such as rainbow cruise (Who ever was the asshole who got that banned sarcastic laugh) but say if two falcon mains wanted to go on rainbow cruise. Say they both agreed to the stage and characters. No blind character pick or blind stage pick just an agreement. Why couldn't they do that in a tournament at a major. Or could they and players just don't. What are your thoughts on that possibility?
Thank you very much. I love you PP! Hope your getting better
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Smog
Smash Journeyman
Yeah I've done the air dodge recovery too. That seems to work a lot actually. I've never thought of the immediate double jump dair, but that sounds super risky. Maybe I'll use it every once in awhile. Thanks
It entails looking at what options beat what, what can be done, how the positions can minutely change, how the position was entered(both parties may not react to it at the same time for this reason), what has happened before, and so on. Some positions have more clear answers than others. You can test by pausing Youtube videos and imagining what happens, but you can also use a partner to walk through things, though this never happened for me. I mainly used Youtube and then supplemented by either forcing a position in friendlies or just recording with my new solution and then breaking down how that looked in the new video.
Do you dash into this weak Nair? Is it in place? How do they DI? It is at normal knockdown percents right? I am still confused.
Having laser control is to either have frame advantage from a laser or carry that frame advantage into another type of advantage. So if you don't have advantage but your opponent could still lose to a possible incoming attack in a new position you prepared, you'd still have laser advantage. If you were to extend this further and they wait through this next position as well, then you could set up another winning position and could continue laser advantage. However, if they knew about this or had sufficient counterplay about you specifically, then you would not have laser advantage even in an identical situation. So the best way I can say it is if you make someone fear threats attached to your laser advantage or a position/time just after that.
What's wrong with drifting Bair?
If you corner Sheik, then she can't WD/dash back against approaching aerial and she also can't really dodge lasers so easily either then. If she does use platforms then it makes more sense to either begin setting up Bair to hit her or to set up approaches which account for (dash) FH to platform and using dash SH DJ aerial or dash FH shine or laser in then aerial/utilt, etc. Of course you can also just wait more to see what she could do or even just wait a while to counter her trying to get out of the corner. There are different ways to play it and you can interchange these as well.
As for this dash back Bair, it depends. If she's right within Bair range then you can dash back Bair her. If you have to drift it's possible you can lose. If you're too slow, then she could hit the ground by the time you get to her with weak Bair, which means you'll likely lose. If you react to her jumping with dash back and then Bair, you're way too slow. Dash back is fine, but if you only do it as she comes forward then you either need to change your dash back timing or change what you do out of dash back, or do a different option/strategy altogether.
Hey, hope you're well too.
Your results from looking are definitely good starting points that show you've really been paying attention.
I would definitely investigate your eyes outside of Melee if I were you. However as I see you mention medical energy problems later, the two might just be related.
1. I kind of switch between both when I pay attention to my eyes. I do not remember why I switch. However if you practice enough and look at you when needed, you'll eventually know pretty much where you are and how you're moving so you won't need to worry about what you're doing too much.
2. I'm not sure how to answer this well. I do make more guesses when I am fatigued but I make them informed. So I may stop watching them for a split second to go through my tech to be sure I execute at the right time/place to beat what I suspect they will do.
3. I have a friend who has an issue seeing opponents in game to an extreme degree but I believe his vision is fine since I don't remember him wearing glasses. He was told he had an issue with proprioception and has to do things like spin around on a chair frequently to get his body trained to move through space more. Perhaps that is something worth looking into? There may be eye-specific exercises you can do, but your vision makes me think there is perhaps some other underlying cause.
4. You need to expand your vision to see everything, so that kind of naturally will mean you need to look at center stage. It's probably a good enough rule.
5. Through experience and practice and through looking at yourself when you have to you get used to where you are. I'd say look if needed but wean yourself off of it when possible.
6. So I agreed to play a 3/5 instead of 2/3 with mattdotzeb at an EVO in pools finals I think and they made us replay it because we didn't agree to the rules. I was very sad about this as it means in the modern era some power has been taken away from players. Perhaps in this particular case it would be bad if everyone did 3/5 as it would greatly lengthen the tourney, but as for picking RC I guess the reasoning would be because it can complicate the tourney more, or in top 8 it could lead to more sandbagging/loss of integrity. I'm not sure but I'm with you that at least to an extent the gentleman's agreement should allow people to play on whatever stage they want.
You're the best. I think I remember reading an old Buddhist text saying that spinning in circles was one of the keys to super human health lol. Anyways I'll try that advice and spin like a ballerina as it honestly could be helpful.
And your take of stage select is very interesting. You've raised some good points on sandbagging I had not thought of.
I think I'm going to try to focus on the space in between charaters and once I feel like I can unconsciously (or subconsciously don't know the difference) know the positioning of our characters and I can react to his spacing with either attakcs or dash dance I'll try focusing more on looking at my opponent directly more instead of the space inbetween. Gonna try testing a few things and look into some other eye exercises. Much appreciated man - pman
And your take of stage select is very interesting. You've raised some good points on sandbagging I had not thought of.
I think I'm going to try to focus on the space in between charaters and once I feel like I can unconsciously (or subconsciously don't know the difference) know the positioning of our characters and I can react to his spacing with either attakcs or dash dance I'll try focusing more on looking at my opponent directly more instead of the space inbetween. Gonna try testing a few things and look into some other eye exercises. Much appreciated man - pman
MambaGreenFalco
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2017
- Messages
- 179
After about a year of doing very surface level analysis, I've been thinking of really trying to dive into a position and get to know it super well. Do you have any recommendations of a good situation to study seeing as it's my first time doing this kind of process? Do you have any recommendations for how I should start learning and breaking it down?
My one fox friend that I play against often deals with my lasers very well. I used to think that it was simply because he was great against the laser itself, but now I think it's because he knows so much about my playstyle and the common options I use that are connected to laser. When playing against him and learning the interactions with laser, how should I take that into account? One thing that seems to work against him is to laser at awkward timings, timings I'm not really used to. I guess this is just a classic example of two people making each other better by learning the counterplay to each others options.
I've always been under the impression that drift in bair is bad because it's bad against shield. Seems I need to reevaluate my thoughts on it and experiment with it more.
Bair is the most logical option after dash backing for me in that situation against a Sheik sh fade forward fairing. I tend to do really preemptive dash backs to stay barely out of DA range but also be able to react to her sh. Are there other decision paths/options I should be looking into to acccount for both of these options? If I dash back and she does a fade forward sh fair and lands with it where I just was, what do you like to do in that situation? Should I be challenging her landing or using the space to establish a laser?
How can I leverage being expressive and emotional playing melee while still trying to do the "best" option in each situation? Are those things mutually exclusive or can they be combined? I remember a long time ago reading one of your posts where you say that you should use the emotional state of mind to pressure your opponent and throw them off, instead of pushing aside the emotion and trying to play perfectly logical and optimal. I think the summary of the post was that you should account for the random fluctuations in emotion/"logicalness" instead of trying to balance them perfectly. Do you still stand by that idea?
Hitting a shield with laser at a range where you can't directly pressure but have advantage is a great one. So perhaps just out of jab/Ftilt range. It's also common across matchups and has some reduced complexity compared to normal overly complicated situations. You can also just switch it up and say you hit them with a laser there instead for a different scenario. Something easier could be landing a laser when pretty close to them and you could do some pressure but not others. You could also do corner pressure as that's really common too, but it does vary more between characters.
As for how to start, looking at every possible option each character has, NOT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOOD BUT EVERYTHING, is a good start. Then you begin thinking about the importance of each option and how some work together, and how they beat the opponent's options and what leads to punishes. You can begin formulating theories and begin playing with the idea of conditioning, so if someone knew or probably knew something was coming, how does that change the way they skew their options? You can watch matches of yourself or others to further inform your process. In the meta, people may do some of what's best, but some of what they're most comfortable with as well.
Practice partners are great at getting you to take "next steps" with your position. They beat your typical solutions and your next idea or two if it loses which is what you have for tourney or long friendlies usually. But against them you will need to evolve your positions further, and also see if some of your tactics are good at all. You may also find you want to overhaul things a lot like what you're saying with awkward laser timings. What I did is began asking myself why am I losing and what is he specifically doing to beat my options. Once I knew his specific counters or things he was looking for, I could begin giving him that and letting him react and then punishing. So since I always covered a lot of approaches for example, he would not approach, yet I would get hit for coming forward only a little bit to try and beat an approach that wouldn't come there. So I learned how to go in better as a result and learned what conditioning people toward defense was like. This would be a similar process for you, though specifics help me explain this better if you can remember/record them.
AC drift in Bair I don't know much about but it seems like it could have varying effectiveness. I was talking about mid or late Bair.
Once you discourage Sheik to stop running in she has to start jumping. So you can fight closer to her and force her to Ftilt/jump/shield/WD back more. But even if that bothers you, then you can at least laser closer and then she literally can't DA right away so you can do a mixup game in that position. But yeah DA as Sheik is a risk so this is seriously worth keeping in mind. Anyway, if you're spaced so far that Nair can't hit her jump, maybe you can dash SH Fair it sometimes but it might cause problems for you. Otherwise yeah you can laser her landing or fall on her landing with Bair so you at least get pressure out of the situation. I guess if you know she will drift in your could also Fsmash/Ftilt/DA it as well but you'd need to practice to know exactly how that works out. Oh also you can SH Nair in just as she lands so she has to shield that pressure as well and it ensures she won't Ftilt or WD back or something. If you can slightly laser closer then that gives you a mixup as well.
My theory for a developing player is usually just to get into whatever state of mind allows you to play your best. Working on the game more than the mind in that abstract way tends to help more people. I find that as you get better and better, more and more mental work is needed. Eventually working on emotion and the game become similar, or at least complementary, exercises. Positions all have the same options, but how you select them and at what rate you select them and whether you choose to select first or second are all things that can vary with emotional state and not necessarily be more or less optimal for more open positions. Basically I wouldn't worry about it right now.
As for how to start, looking at every possible option each character has, NOT WHAT YOU THINK IS GOOD BUT EVERYTHING, is a good start. Then you begin thinking about the importance of each option and how some work together, and how they beat the opponent's options and what leads to punishes. You can begin formulating theories and begin playing with the idea of conditioning, so if someone knew or probably knew something was coming, how does that change the way they skew their options? You can watch matches of yourself or others to further inform your process. In the meta, people may do some of what's best, but some of what they're most comfortable with as well.
Practice partners are great at getting you to take "next steps" with your position. They beat your typical solutions and your next idea or two if it loses which is what you have for tourney or long friendlies usually. But against them you will need to evolve your positions further, and also see if some of your tactics are good at all. You may also find you want to overhaul things a lot like what you're saying with awkward laser timings. What I did is began asking myself why am I losing and what is he specifically doing to beat my options. Once I knew his specific counters or things he was looking for, I could begin giving him that and letting him react and then punishing. So since I always covered a lot of approaches for example, he would not approach, yet I would get hit for coming forward only a little bit to try and beat an approach that wouldn't come there. So I learned how to go in better as a result and learned what conditioning people toward defense was like. This would be a similar process for you, though specifics help me explain this better if you can remember/record them.
AC drift in Bair I don't know much about but it seems like it could have varying effectiveness. I was talking about mid or late Bair.
Once you discourage Sheik to stop running in she has to start jumping. So you can fight closer to her and force her to Ftilt/jump/shield/WD back more. But even if that bothers you, then you can at least laser closer and then she literally can't DA right away so you can do a mixup game in that position. But yeah DA as Sheik is a risk so this is seriously worth keeping in mind. Anyway, if you're spaced so far that Nair can't hit her jump, maybe you can dash SH Fair it sometimes but it might cause problems for you. Otherwise yeah you can laser her landing or fall on her landing with Bair so you at least get pressure out of the situation. I guess if you know she will drift in your could also Fsmash/Ftilt/DA it as well but you'd need to practice to know exactly how that works out. Oh also you can SH Nair in just as she lands so she has to shield that pressure as well and it ensures she won't Ftilt or WD back or something. If you can slightly laser closer then that gives you a mixup as well.
My theory for a developing player is usually just to get into whatever state of mind allows you to play your best. Working on the game more than the mind in that abstract way tends to help more people. I find that as you get better and better, more and more mental work is needed. Eventually working on emotion and the game become similar, or at least complementary, exercises. Positions all have the same options, but how you select them and at what rate you select them and whether you choose to select first or second are all things that can vary with emotional state and not necessarily be more or less optimal for more open positions. Basically I wouldn't worry about it right now.
jedimeister007
Smash Cadet
Not a ton of personal experience, but Ginger has a really solid video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfwHL9mqfMM&
Dr Peepee
[Once you discourage Sheik to stop running in she has to start jumping.]
how do you discourage shiek to stop running in?
I mainly use dash in delayed nair to force them to shield while they're running in what else? Laser doesn't seem to work because shieks often spam run in > powershield so laser doesn't really discourage them to run in from my perspective.
[Having laser control is to either have frame advantage from a laser or carry that frame advantage into another type of advantage. So if you don't have advantage but your opponent could still lose to a possible incoming attack in a new position you prepared, you'd still have laser advantage.]
So if you set up a good position after the laser you consider that still having "laser advantage" (aka forcing someone in the corner then locking them there with another laser)
So if an opponent could lose to a dash sh nair in a mix up if he played the mix up wrong and you played it well you have an advantage? Like for example if an opponent shielded a laser after you did an approaching laser and now they're holding shield while you have the ability to dash sh nair, dash back nair, dash forward dash back etc, then you still have laser advantage in your terms?
If you corner Sheik, then she can't WD/dash back against approaching aerial and she also can't really dodge lasers so easily.
Are rolling through and jumping over aerials the only ways she has to dodge your attack in this spot?
Why is it harder for her to dodge lasers when she can still jump over them and onto the platform which gives her different mix ups out of her jump as well?When you're trying to beat a shiek FH wavelanding onto platform out of the corner can you wait and react to her FH OOS or are you pre emptively guessing the timing she's going to jump to plat?
If you do 3 dashes while shiek is holding shield in the corner just out of ftilt range from you, and see that she hasn't jumped yet, would you assume at this point she's less likely to jump because of how long she's been waited? Random question but sometimes I notice that people are more likely to roll after being pressured for longer? I might have it backwards need to think more about this sorry this one is random.
When do you think people are more likely to act instantly oos versus holding shield for a little while versus a long time?
I often get hit by shieks who land from sh fair close to me and then shield, as I go for a early dair whiff punish and just hit their shield and then get naired oos. Should I stop trying to whiff punish her landings from SH fair with dair and instead just grab / laser / sh delayed aerial her landing? I am starting to think that whiff punishing this is not very reliable and me making it a cornerstone of my gameplan vs shiek is a bad move.
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Well if she's running in and not doing DA/Dsmash that's more of what I mean. If she's gonna run in for PS that's a different game. But yeah if they want to run in with PS then you can just low laser into aerial a decent amount to stop that.
That's basically right, yes.
That's true about Sheik, but you need to watch for PS and Ftilt or Nair OOS for example. She can also beat your aerials with her Fair/Bair/Nair I suppose. She could sometimes play a platform game here as well, depending on exactly how cornered she is and a variety of factors.
Well you know Sheik can't back up, and that means you're largely looking for a jump to dodge an attack/laser or to go higher to a top platform. As long as you've discouraged an approach or you're covering it with say reverse SH inward then it's pretty easy to prime yourself to hit or at least pressure Sheik going high. As you get used to when Sheik's pick this option and what they're likely thinking, this gets easier to predict.
Sometimes people do roll after waiting longer since their shield wears down and they want the opponent to commit to pressure that can poke now or hitting a WD back OOS.
If they act instantly OOS they either think they can win the interaction, they just really want to get out, or they think you won't cover it well/at all. Waiting more is for similar reasons but waiting is also good because you tend to go through safer options first and then may have to readjust your pressure, so moving during that readjustment can be pretty good.
Something to test to be sure you can get it reliably, but yeah I don't go for that high aerial against Sheik unless she drifts in iirc.
That's basically right, yes.
That's true about Sheik, but you need to watch for PS and Ftilt or Nair OOS for example. She can also beat your aerials with her Fair/Bair/Nair I suppose. She could sometimes play a platform game here as well, depending on exactly how cornered she is and a variety of factors.
Well you know Sheik can't back up, and that means you're largely looking for a jump to dodge an attack/laser or to go higher to a top platform. As long as you've discouraged an approach or you're covering it with say reverse SH inward then it's pretty easy to prime yourself to hit or at least pressure Sheik going high. As you get used to when Sheik's pick this option and what they're likely thinking, this gets easier to predict.
Sometimes people do roll after waiting longer since their shield wears down and they want the opponent to commit to pressure that can poke now or hitting a WD back OOS.
If they act instantly OOS they either think they can win the interaction, they just really want to get out, or they think you won't cover it well/at all. Waiting more is for similar reasons but waiting is also good because you tend to go through safer options first and then may have to readjust your pressure, so moving during that readjustment can be pretty good.
Something to test to be sure you can get it reliably, but yeah I don't go for that high aerial against Sheik unless she drifts in iirc.
Hey PP I've been studying some of your sets and came upon a realization after reading an old post by cactus that in order to have good feints it's best to have actually threatened something first. Ive read this a million times but it finally sunk in lol.
When analyzing some of your sets it seems that all the other gods respect your zone right off the gate except for mang0. I don't think this is just because he's aggressive but mostly because he's stubborn. In a previous post you said it took you a long time to learn to condition mang0. I was wondering what it was exactly that you learned to condition a player like that? If you recall that is.
My second question has to do with leffen. In melee I try to focus on stage control and love using my dash dance to condition my opponents. Leffen seems to ignore both of these things. He doesn't dash dance much I don't think and he doesn't seem to utilize stage control as much. He also has this uncanny ability to call out his opponents dash dance and positioning in general. What do you think makes his gameplay so effective besides great positioning/punish game.
Finally my last question is m2k says he does well against leffen not just because he plays Marth and big leff hates marth lol but because leffen plays exactly like m2k but with fox in m2ks opinion. Would you agree with this assessment from your perspective that leffen is a fox version if m2k. What are the major differences in playstyle in your opinion?
On a side note after having a discussion on how to use my eyes in melee I figured out how to enter into flowstate consistently. When talking about vision i discovered something called wide angle vision which is what hunters do. It's like using your peripherals and focusing on something directly at the same time. It's hard to explain. I went from not being able to reaction tech chase with sheik to being able to do it perfectly 9/10 times in practice. It was amazing. My reactions are measurably slower than others it wasn't until that experience I realized their not I just didn't know how to focus even though I thought it did. In neutral I am almost never hit after this experience unless I whiff a move. I can almost dash back perfectly on reaction although even against much stronger players although still much room for improvement. It feels like going on a rollercoaster while smoking a blunt. That's not me exaggerated but honestly it's the closest way I can describe this feeling. My fatigue which has haunted me for 10 years has almost vertually vanished. It's not just melee either as for the first time ever I went for a jog and actually enjoyed it. Maybe in 2 months if I significantly improve at melee and figure out the kinks of entering into a longer stronger flow and meditation state I'll write a post, as i find even online it's rare to find a good post on flowstate and meditation that's practical and scientific
Cheers to you, this game and this community as it directly helped me find what is honestly the most life changing thing that's happened to me probably ever.
When analyzing some of your sets it seems that all the other gods respect your zone right off the gate except for mang0. I don't think this is just because he's aggressive but mostly because he's stubborn. In a previous post you said it took you a long time to learn to condition mang0. I was wondering what it was exactly that you learned to condition a player like that? If you recall that is.
My second question has to do with leffen. In melee I try to focus on stage control and love using my dash dance to condition my opponents. Leffen seems to ignore both of these things. He doesn't dash dance much I don't think and he doesn't seem to utilize stage control as much. He also has this uncanny ability to call out his opponents dash dance and positioning in general. What do you think makes his gameplay so effective besides great positioning/punish game.
Finally my last question is m2k says he does well against leffen not just because he plays Marth and big leff hates marth lol but because leffen plays exactly like m2k but with fox in m2ks opinion. Would you agree with this assessment from your perspective that leffen is a fox version if m2k. What are the major differences in playstyle in your opinion?
On a side note after having a discussion on how to use my eyes in melee I figured out how to enter into flowstate consistently. When talking about vision i discovered something called wide angle vision which is what hunters do. It's like using your peripherals and focusing on something directly at the same time. It's hard to explain. I went from not being able to reaction tech chase with sheik to being able to do it perfectly 9/10 times in practice. It was amazing. My reactions are measurably slower than others it wasn't until that experience I realized their not I just didn't know how to focus even though I thought it did. In neutral I am almost never hit after this experience unless I whiff a move. I can almost dash back perfectly on reaction although even against much stronger players although still much room for improvement. It feels like going on a rollercoaster while smoking a blunt. That's not me exaggerated but honestly it's the closest way I can describe this feeling. My fatigue which has haunted me for 10 years has almost vertually vanished. It's not just melee either as for the first time ever I went for a jog and actually enjoyed it. Maybe in 2 months if I significantly improve at melee and figure out the kinks of entering into a longer stronger flow and meditation state I'll write a post, as i find even online it's rare to find a good post on flowstate and meditation that's practical and scientific
Cheers to you, this game and this community as it directly helped me find what is honestly the most life changing thing that's happened to me probably ever.
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Well what you need to condition Mango is pretty different from what it takes to condition basically any other player, so it's not that relevant for anyone not fighting him. In simple form I'd say I learned sometimes he will register what you're doing and explicitly not adapt, but sometimes he will change even if something he does is working. In this way he uses adaptation very differently from others.
He abuses something about Fox which is that Fox can attack at any time and from various angles. He uses lasers well to make the opponent uncertain and want to rush in, so he's finding ways to control center without actually being there in a sense.
Reminds me of what M2K thought about Azen. He always said Azen did the right thing so he just went one step further. I don't exactly agree as you can watch their Fox dittos of the past and notice clear differences, but I do think their focus on simplicity and some lasers and zoning and burst approaches can be thought of somewhat similarly.
You may find this interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1MHyyWsMeE
That said, that's pretty amazing man! I'd love to read a detailed post describing how you felt and thought and looked before, and exactly what changed when you made the specific changes and how it all cascaded. Best of luck on your journey, and I'm super happy you have gained so much of yourself. =)
He abuses something about Fox which is that Fox can attack at any time and from various angles. He uses lasers well to make the opponent uncertain and want to rush in, so he's finding ways to control center without actually being there in a sense.
Reminds me of what M2K thought about Azen. He always said Azen did the right thing so he just went one step further. I don't exactly agree as you can watch their Fox dittos of the past and notice clear differences, but I do think their focus on simplicity and some lasers and zoning and burst approaches can be thought of somewhat similarly.
You may find this interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1MHyyWsMeE
That said, that's pretty amazing man! I'd love to read a detailed post describing how you felt and thought and looked before, and exactly what changed when you made the specific changes and how it all cascaded. Best of luck on your journey, and I'm super happy you have gained so much of yourself. =)
Thank you so much for your kind words. I watched the video and am big fans on Steve kolter and Jamie wheel. I suspect that although it's impossible to live in flowstate their is a way to recover almost instantly multiple times although idk yet how to apply it
Their are these woman who have the ability to orgasm 100 times in a row. It was found that these woman were much more aroused before orgasm because of how in touch they were with their arousal levels compared to the average woman. Also their brain wave activity was different. As the average woman had slow alpha brain waves and higher stress levels, the super orgasmers were much completely relaxed (but aroused) and had faster alpha waves. Im not trying to troll but I suspect that this information could be useful even though orgasm and flow are different as it shows woman who recover faster from orgasm relax more and are more in tune with their arousal. They also have brain waves very similar to flowstate
Another study showed that woman who could think their way to an orgasm without touching themselves had a routine or trigger. For some woman they didn't even think about sex but thought of warm sunny beaches. It was like a trigger they created the same image in their mind every time like self hypnosis. Kinda like what actors when crying on cue. Buddhists apparently have gamma spikes off the charts when doing compassion/gratitude meditation and can live in this state for hours at a time
I suspect that if you get rid of all stress (which is hard in tourney situations) and your more familiar with how to create a high arousal feeling. And you coast when your not in flow instead of stress and you create a hypnotic anchor for these feelings of oneness and compassion and gratitude you can reenter flow almost immediately and stay in flow longer. Also ironically the more you go in flow the more nitric oxide your body produces so the faster you get into flow :/
This is just theory but seems logical. Have a few others but need to learn more about flow though
hope this post didn't weird any one I'm done posting for a while lol
Their are these woman who have the ability to orgasm 100 times in a row. It was found that these woman were much more aroused before orgasm because of how in touch they were with their arousal levels compared to the average woman. Also their brain wave activity was different. As the average woman had slow alpha brain waves and higher stress levels, the super orgasmers were much completely relaxed (but aroused) and had faster alpha waves. Im not trying to troll but I suspect that this information could be useful even though orgasm and flow are different as it shows woman who recover faster from orgasm relax more and are more in tune with their arousal. They also have brain waves very similar to flowstate
Another study showed that woman who could think their way to an orgasm without touching themselves had a routine or trigger. For some woman they didn't even think about sex but thought of warm sunny beaches. It was like a trigger they created the same image in their mind every time like self hypnosis. Kinda like what actors when crying on cue. Buddhists apparently have gamma spikes off the charts when doing compassion/gratitude meditation and can live in this state for hours at a time
I suspect that if you get rid of all stress (which is hard in tourney situations) and your more familiar with how to create a high arousal feeling. And you coast when your not in flow instead of stress and you create a hypnotic anchor for these feelings of oneness and compassion and gratitude you can reenter flow almost immediately and stay in flow longer. Also ironically the more you go in flow the more nitric oxide your body produces so the faster you get into flow :/
This is just theory but seems logical. Have a few others but need to learn more about flow though
hope this post didn't weird any one I'm done posting for a while lol
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I had wondered about that. Flow does appear in different forms as Kotler and Wheel mention, and this is likely another manifestation as you said.
Right a mental groove connected with emotion and practice to ingrain it. Makes sense that's how good learning and conditioning is done. I like the example though thanks for that.
I don't think getting rid of stress is the answer, but more about maintaining calm under stress/reframing a stressful input into something positive or manageable. But yeah as it starts to work it builds on itself in a feedback loop, much like with someone who approaches competing negatively eventually can't handle the thought of competing anymore.
If you're worried about being judged about flow or its manifestations, you could message me if you're interested. I am certainly quite curious about this subject as well. Up to you of course.
Good luck.
Right a mental groove connected with emotion and practice to ingrain it. Makes sense that's how good learning and conditioning is done. I like the example though thanks for that.
I don't think getting rid of stress is the answer, but more about maintaining calm under stress/reframing a stressful input into something positive or manageable. But yeah as it starts to work it builds on itself in a feedback loop, much like with someone who approaches competing negatively eventually can't handle the thought of competing anymore.
If you're worried about being judged about flow or its manifestations, you could message me if you're interested. I am certainly quite curious about this subject as well. Up to you of course.
Good luck.
Hey PP,
I was analyzing your first falco game vs S2j at Apex ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg&t=371s) and I have a few questions:
I noticed S2J was playing your lasers very defensively and only called out your lasers a few times during the entire game (5:00 for example), how do you get falcons to respect your laser game so heavily? Is it due to you mixing up dash back laser with things like dash back bair? (5:43)
How do you beat run up shield? You and S2J both applied run up shield heavily when in the corner, and saw almost no punishes on it, in fact, I think S2J calls it out here (6:22), yet your still able to roll away from it. I thought shield was supposed to be disadvantageous yet you still have access to good movement options (buffer roll, WD), and good attacking options (Laser, Aerials,Shine), how are you supposed to call out and beat a player who abuses this?
I know you get the kills on these edgeguards (5:10,5:50) but how do you feel about shine turnaround bair? I feel like it completely invalidates captain falcon's chances at getting back on stage. In fact, you use something similar to that when you edgeguard him @ 6:15, why don't more falcos use this?
Last but not least, why has nobody mapped out all of Falco's tech chase options? I feel like falco could become so much deadlier if you're able to follow-up on even one tech chase. So many tech chases lead into falco's deadlier punishes (Dair,Shine,Grab,Utilt,FSmash,DSmash),is it just not worth the effort recognizing or are Falco players simply being lazy?
Even if you're not PP feel free to discuss this with me.
Thanks in advance,
Chuk
I was analyzing your first falco game vs S2j at Apex ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8yKWtB2nOg&t=371s) and I have a few questions:
I noticed S2J was playing your lasers very defensively and only called out your lasers a few times during the entire game (5:00 for example), how do you get falcons to respect your laser game so heavily? Is it due to you mixing up dash back laser with things like dash back bair? (5:43)
How do you beat run up shield? You and S2J both applied run up shield heavily when in the corner, and saw almost no punishes on it, in fact, I think S2J calls it out here (6:22), yet your still able to roll away from it. I thought shield was supposed to be disadvantageous yet you still have access to good movement options (buffer roll, WD), and good attacking options (Laser, Aerials,Shine), how are you supposed to call out and beat a player who abuses this?
I know you get the kills on these edgeguards (5:10,5:50) but how do you feel about shine turnaround bair? I feel like it completely invalidates captain falcon's chances at getting back on stage. In fact, you use something similar to that when you edgeguard him @ 6:15, why don't more falcos use this?
Last but not least, why has nobody mapped out all of Falco's tech chase options? I feel like falco could become so much deadlier if you're able to follow-up on even one tech chase. So many tech chases lead into falco's deadlier punishes (Dair,Shine,Grab,Utilt,FSmash,DSmash),is it just not worth the effort recognizing or are Falco players simply being lazy?
Even if you're not PP feel free to discuss this with me.
Thanks in advance,
Chuk
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MambaGreenFalco
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2017
- Messages
- 179
So for Falco's corner pressure game, I feel like you either have to commit heavily when they go on the platform, or set up a more passive sh/fh bair. But you also have to be worried about them running into you and brute forcing their way out of the corner. Does this mean that when you have a corner pressure situation set up you have to discourage one and then cover the other everytime? And mixup which one you preemptively cover in the first place? Like maybe fh wl down on side plat to cover the jump to the side plat, which also gives you another angle of attack, and then turn around shield drop bair to potentially beat run through/sh fade forward fair and then land at a roll spacing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=YIEQJs5dnHU
Can you explain this sequence for me starting at 0:07 and ending at 0:13 when wes gets the bair uptilt? I'm confused about the defensive full hop trif did, and wes's plan against Peach when she has a turnip. For trif's full hop, was his plan to go to the side plat to set up a strong turnip/float for lot's of stage presence, and then was discouraged to do that when he saw wes fh fade forward? What exactly is wes covering when his fh there?
My understanding of anti-peach turnip gameplan is to laser less because turnips go through lasers and peach can jump and throw them which means she can avoid your laser and hit you with the turnip in the process, she can also throw the turnip a little later/higher to prevent you from jumping. Was wes simply too far to get hit by it? How should my gameplan against peach with a turnip change if she's too far to threaten what I described above?