PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

It's more important to know situations well. If I know you intimately and have done psychological evaluations of you on a professional level, it does not help in the game unless you have situational understanding first. They can be developed together, but you will only be able to apply psychology after you have deeper in-game knowledge.

 

[makehersquirtle]

How do I slide off di to escape marths combos on platforms/ in general? Annalog left, c stick down? and is there a specific timing to this. Also what are some of the best ways to follow up shine/ double shine to keep pressure on besides a fade away aerial

 

[Yort]

@Dr_PeePee

I have been messing around with dash back recently and how people respond to it.

My main training partner almost always does dash forward in an attempt to pressure dash back laser, as such I’ve been punishing with dash back dash in late aerial etc.

Another player I play against responds differently by waiting more as you said some do.

My main question about this is what does this difference in response to dash back indicate their play style?
What about the response of taking space vs waiting shows me what type of player they are? I’d assume the former is more aggressive and the second is more defensive, at least in this situation.

Also, when I’ve been testing stimulus I’ve mainly been focused on their response to the stimulus in a raw neutral threat range type of position. I recently realized something important, that people’s response to these things varies on many factors such as frame advantage and positioning. This makes it super complicated.

For example let’s say a marth whiffs fair in front of me and I’m dashing back during this, his option after whiffed fair is often dash back because of the frame disadvantage while he might dash forward in raw neutral.

I guess my question is just looking for more clarification on this idea and also to ask how to get better at realizing how my stimulus influences them in different game states, I’d imagine your answer would be like something you’ve said many times like deeper study into different situations where I might be dashing back but I still want to know if there’s anything else you could tell me.

Also, I realized that along with noticing how they react to my dash back I also have to be aware of what they are doing at the time of my dash back. Before I was too gunned on just their reaction to it but not how this changes how I should act, such as the previous example I shouldn’t do dash back approaching nair if they’re on whiff punish and I can’t hit it, only if they’re in raw neutral. Although this is true, even when I try hard to observe and be aware and choose my actions meaningfully in response to the situation, I often still end up doing the same thing over and over. How do I start to be more deliberate in deciding?

In this situation I’d imagine I should approaching laser instead of hair assuming he might dash back, or late aerial if he reacts with shied often, but I really struggle at actually doing these things and I’ll often stick to plan a. How can I improve on reacting to the situation, and choosing a deliberate decision based on what happened?

I understand this is more of just writing my own thoughts and believe you’ve answered these general questions for me before but any advice is appreciated.

 

[Yort]

How do I slide off di to escape marths combos on platforms/ in general? Annalog left, c stick down? and is there a specific timing to this. Also what are some of the best ways to follow up shine/ double shine to keep pressure on besides a fade away aerial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1S1Ja8_3WY
9.00
avery gives a pretty good description of it here.

to force a slide it's good to tech roll hold then down on c stick and down away / away on analog. Keep in mind it doesn’t work if they get a tipper uptilt so if they do wavedash turn around uptilt (hit you with the side of the swing) it won’t work. It capitalizes on them not understanding how to beat it or not having enough time to set up well. Works on up air for a while too.

Also you can do slide off di's when you tech in place as well but not all moves / situations will push you off the platform which is what you're looking for.

Missing tech on purpose after their upthrow and then teching the up air is good too but I’m not good at the timing so I don’t really know how good.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Dr_PeePee

I have been messing around with dash back recently and how people respond to it.

My main training partner almost always does dash forward in an attempt to pressure dash back laser, as such I’ve been punishing with dash back dash in late aerial etc.

Another player I play against responds differently by waiting more as you said some do.

My main question about this is what does this difference in response to dash back indicate their play style?
What about the response of taking space vs waiting shows me what type of player they are? I’d assume the former is more aggressive and the second is more defensive, at least in this situation.

Also, when I’ve been testing stimulus I’ve mainly been focused on their response to the stimulus in a raw neutral threat range type of position. I recently realized something important, that people’s response to these things varies on many factors such as frame advantage and positioning. This makes it super complicated.

For example let’s say a marth whiffs fair in front of me and I’m dashing back during this, his option after whiffed fair is often dash back because of the frame disadvantage while he might dash forward in raw neutral.

I guess my question is just looking for more clarification on this idea and also to ask how to get better at realizing how my stimulus influences them in different game states, I’d imagine your answer would be like something you’ve said many times like deeper study into different situations where I might be dashing back but I still want to know if there’s anything else you could tell me.

Also, I realized that along with noticing how they react to my dash back I also have to be aware of what they are doing at the time of my dash back. Before I was too gunned on just their reaction to it but not how this changes how I should act, such as the previous example I shouldn’t do dash back approaching nair if they’re on whiff punish and I can’t hit it, only if they’re in raw neutral. Although this is true, even when I try hard to observe and be aware and choose my actions meaningfully in response to the situation, I often still end up doing the same thing over and over. How do I start to be more deliberate in deciding?

In this situation I’d imagine I should approaching laser instead of hair assuming he might dash back, or late aerial if he reacts with shied often, but I really struggle at actually doing these things and I’ll often stick to plan a. How can I improve on reacting to the situation, and choosing a deliberate decision based on what happened?

I understand this is more of just writing my own thoughts and believe you’ve answered these general questions for me before but any advice is appreciated.

Lol looks like you already know some of the answer =p

In a given situation that is somewhat capable of being replicated, the dash in vs dash back you mentioned is important. However you won't truly know how people fall into archetypes without more information. If they're aggressive in one situation but not in 80% of others, then you'd be getting a false cue. Maybe some people are aggressive early in a set/session but not so later, etc. Still, you may come to realize that certain situations will show more than others and give you a boost in sorting out what type of player you're playing against. This could be from times you allow your opponent to show what they want to do, as in your dash back observe example.

If you want to be more deliberate, practice being more deliberate. Practice dashing back and doing actions out of it. Practice staggering the actions like you would in a match. If you play a match and you can't do the actions like you did in practice and get effective results, you practiced poorly and need to redo it. This should be your starting point, and it is the purpose of shadowboxing and building your own setups. Then you apply these things to friendlies/analysis, then take that new information back to practice. It's a good cycle.

 

[Yort]

Lol looks like you already know some of the answer =p

In a given situation that is somewhat capable of being replicated, the dash in vs dash back you mentioned is important. However you won't truly know how people fall into archetypes without more information. If they're aggressive in one situation but not in 80% of others, then you'd be getting a false cue. Maybe some people are aggressive early in a set/session but not so later, etc. Still, you may come to realize that certain situations will show more than others and give you a boost in sorting out what type of player you're playing against. This could be from times you allow your opponent to show what they want to do, as in your dash back observe example.

If you want to be more deliberate, practice being more deliberate. Practice dashing back and doing actions out of it. Practice staggering the actions like you would in a match. If you play a match and you can't do the actions like you did in practice and get effective results, you practiced poorly and need to redo it. This should be your starting point, and it is the purpose of shadowboxing and building your own setups. Then you apply these things to friendlies/analysis, then take that new information back to practice. It's a good cycle.

When you say staggering here, you mean the inserting waits and stuff I asked about earlier right?

I think I often struggle at putting my practice into application and really getting the most out of my friendlies when i'm testing new ideas. I'm working on bench-marking myself more and trying to hold myself more accountable.




New Question Wall:

1
I remember one time you mentioned that newer players aren't so good at pushing advantage.

I'm wondering if you mean purely frame advantage, or are there some others types of advantage that exist?
I think that space advantage is pretty obvious, certain match ups percent advantage is a big deal (below 40% vs shiek) and maybe things such as being on the ground while characters are in the air and you have a threat range example?

Do you have some sort of classification for the different types of advantage and how to push them?
I've noticed recently when watching you that you seem adept at getting a small advantage and pushing it into a bigger one over time.

2
I would like to ask some questions about game 2 in this set
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vXqzutULYQ

4.56
when you did the laser dash back here, did you react to him full hopping and decide to crouch assuming nair or that you were too late? I figure that if he were to drill shielding would be better here.

Do you think that during the crouch you were able to react to the fact that he drifted back and then you decided to laser his landing? How much do you react to drift, is this something that's very possible to work on? I remember asking about this one and still being confused.


4.59 - 5.02
In this interaction, you used the set up: Laser in place > slight dash forward > slight dash back > Laser in place 3 times and then did approaching laser and got a shine.

Is this an effective full hop counter? Clearly it seems safe and effective to continue force sfat to shield and full hop in the video, but i'm just wondering if this is your main use for it here.

What are you uses for this set up generally speaking? Do you have a break down of it? Where are the decision points and how would they be effective vs fox and in pushing your advantage here?

Something I STILL don't understand well even though I've asked it about multiple times is how the slight dash forward after the laser could influence him, considering the fact that he's full hopping immediately out of laser shield stun and can't react to your action after the laser until he's already full hopped (i'd assume based on how I understand reaction speed vs laser), how can he react to the dash forward to think you're attacking? Maybe it influences his action in the full hop and the drift itself? Or for example if he decided to dash back instead he might shield assuming attacking because you did the slight dash forward.

What was your cue to finally come in with approaching laser here near the end? Was it the fact that you realized it was maybe going to hit him right before he landed, which nets a good approach?

Was it the fact that he drifted backwards after this full hop rather than forwards like usual?

How did your set up and overall the way you used it in this interaction condition him? I noticed he did full hop drift forward most of the times out of shield but then he did drift back, and this is the one you attacked, so i'm wondering if it had anything to do with your decision or maybe his own (adaptation)?
Maybe you forced him off drift forward because he realized it wasn't working, didn't really know what to do and drifted back, and you realized he didn't understand this as well and so you punished? I don't really know just trying to find more factors that might have contributed to your decision.


5.04
Lastly, I always wonder how you get these types of nairs
How did you know he would dash forward here after his roll? What tipped you off to that? Assuming he'd at frame disadvantage because he just rolled, and had to retreat for a while, I would imagine he would do some sort of retreat?

I think maybe the fact that you just were in slight nair lag and also the fact that was a lot of space and not much disadvantage on his end that led to the run forward. Often I notice versus falco many people when they're in raw neutral will just take as much time as they can running forward to take space while it's possible (before the next laser comes out etc).
Especially marths as I see them run forward and take as much space as they can before they get lasered lol.
I'm probably wrong about this but i'm still wondering.

Mainly, how do you read dash forward so much and get good nairs all the time haha? What tipped you off in this specific situation vs sfat?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes that's what I mean.


1. Hmm, I think I usually mean positional or timing advantage, but frame advantage can apply too. This can be anything from dropping free edgeguards to not knowing how to pressure a shield to not recognizing when your opponent isn't sure what to do. I don't think I could give any comprehensive answer about how to improve at these things as each individual one is pretty complex.

2. omfg I watched the first ten seconds and man am I disappointed in myself

Anyway, I did crouch expecting Nair, then I saw him start his drift back early so that let me set up the laser. It can be more nuanced than this, but in this case it wasn't.

5:02- I did what I did to get him to stop jumping immediately in response to my lasers, and if I do it long enough I laser his landing and can get pressure or a shine if he stays jumpy. It's....not easy to say if it is or isn't effective. It is really good if they jump in place immediately like that with little drift, but harder if they change their timing or use different FF or drift or DJ(which has its own FF and drift timing). It can still work though it just needs modification, especially on platform levels. I guess there's also the case where you're trying to set it up and Fox can just FH in at you as you laser(after they get hit by one as you dash in/out or jump to set up initially or another if they just tank the laser). So I can't easily say it's great, but for the typical meta counter of just FH'ing in place with no platform it's pretty good.

Slight dash in after laser CAN influence immediately in certain instances, but often you're right about it influencing him after he's already jumped. I probably didn't distinguish the complexity of the issue there. It would influence his drift as he may think you're closer to him as he makes his decision(this could make him back up if he thought your dash in could carry a FH/DJ threat, so it doesn't mean he'd automatically come in, but he could also drift in if he thought you were coming in to be over you and beat your jumping threats. It's nuanced as I said).

The going in cue went as you said. I would add that since he got closer he needed to back up, and this fear was what made me more confident in going forward.

5:04- Yeah you're right in this very weird niche case of me doing an accidental aerial provoking him to come forward. This encouraged me to Nair. See most people want to regain some control after getting hit and usually it's by retreating. If they don't have any immediate disadvantage though they may just run in, which is more common from WC players. So it was a pretty easy prediction he would run back in at that point especially if you combine it with his forward FH drifts that he wants to push in when he can.

 

[Basod]

I apologize in advance if this message isn't suited for the board, but how do you learn from your losses? Do you think back about what you did wrong and how you should improve? It would help to record sets and analyze them, but what if you cant do that? How do you try to improve yourself in a dead region? How do I practice this game without anyone else to play with? Practice helps to iron some of the kinks out in your gameplay , but how do you apply these things during a set. I can't really seem to apply half the things I want to do in a situation. For example if I see my opponent in shield and I want to pressure them I know I should do a jab WD back on shield, or try another way to bait them out, but I can't seem to do it during a set. Its frustrating because I know how to do X, but I cant do it in Y situation. How do I control my nerves when Im in a bad position? Again I apologize for my rude behavior I just lost at my local tourney and Im super frustrated. I know its not cool to take my anger out, but I don't know what to do. Again I'm sorry, and thanks for the help PP.
<3
P.S.
Come back soon

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can get someone to use your phone to record your matches if you want. You can also train your observation skills in friends so you can remember what happens in tourney. Just pause/stop playing when you get hit and try to understand what happened and eventually you won't need to do that anymore.

I'm not sure why your specific action you practice won't work, but maybe the context isn't right. Maybe in practice you're not hitting a shield, or you want to back up first before hitting them in matches but don't do that in practice, or you let tension get the best of you. For that last one, you can use meditation, exercise, and various forms of relaxation or tackling your negative psychological impulses to calm yourself.

 

[Yort]

You can get someone to use your phone to record your matches if you want. You can also train your observation skills in friends so you can remember what happens in tourney. Just pause/stop playing when you get hit and try to understand what happened and eventually you won't need to do that anymore.

I'm not sure why your specific action you practice won't work, but maybe the context isn't right. Maybe in practice you're not hitting a shield, or you want to back up first before hitting them in matches but don't do that in practice, or you let tension get the best of you. For that last one, you can use meditation, exercise, and various forms of relaxation or tackling your negative psychological impulses to calm yourself.

You've recommended a bunch of times to try and remember what happens in between stocks and games. I was wondering if you did this every time in tournament and if it is mainly for adaptation or if you think you should keep your mind completely clear in tournament.

What are the benefits of improving smash memory? Should I do more of it in game when i am playing to learn instead of just inbetween stocks? Like in the middle of an interaction or right when an interaction ends.


B
How do you train your reactions to specific things such as shiek nair oos etc?

I am going to use shieks full hop and short hop nair out of shield as an example to ask some questions I need help with.
sorry for the twitch vods

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/222932887
11.42.15
do you think punishing the fair lag directly is a good idea?
Also in this type of situation do I have to practice spacing on the dair better to get a good punish?

Often I see you or mango waiting and not attacking after they whiff a fair from full hop for example, and then reading their action after the fair whiff, such as their ftilt or dash back or shield and you guys will punish with approaching laser or aerial or delayed nair on shield.
I was just wondering what thoughts you about this idea of instead of always going for the first punish waiting for something better, because I think I see you and mango do it a lot but I don't have that type of discipline yet to keep waiting.

I think this situation I posted of myself is one where I could punish directly, only because I was so close and ready for it, but in other spacings at a more mid range where I risk hitting the shield when going for a good whiff punish I think I maybe should wait to get a better position or whatever.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/222932887
11.44.31
I think this nair gets me a lot
the sh nair oos with the lingering hitbox they fall on you with
Maybe run up crouch would be good versus this at low percents?


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/222932887
11.48.20
when the shiek does the risking nair into ftilts and smacks me
this I think is a good example to ask some stuff i have been thinking about.

1) Here she lands and instead of backing up she immediately pressures the space in front of her with ftilt.
I was wondering, what gives people incentive to immediately attack after landing from a full hop whiff versus dash back or shield for example?
I personally believe a lot of time it involves the amount of space they control and also the momentum (it seems like). If they feel pressured they often do dash back and vice versa. But also, if i'm cornered I notice people are more likely to ftilt / uptilt etc to pressure me trying to get out of the corner. Also, the amount of space between myself and the opponent seems to indicate a lot. If my fox training partner lands from his fh nair really close to me he seems to go for turn around uptilt but further away he will rely more on dash back which I punish with approaching laser.
Any thoughts on this stuff? Trying to figure it out.

2) I notice people often commit to the same option or related options after my laser hits them that they were going for before the laser hit them.
I consider this an important rule of lasers that i've been observing and trying to understand more
for example, if shiek is trying to ftilt and she gets lasered, they often just ftilt again.
Also for another example, if a shiek does run forward > take laser > ftilt I think it's usually because they were running forward that they commit to the ftilt
take a lot of space and then threaten in front with ftilt after the laser hits, I see this often.
SO i see people committing to actions that aren't necessarily only based on what they were already trying to do but actions out of laser that are based on what sort of movement they were doing before they take the laser
such as run forward > take laser > ftilt
or dash back > take laser > dash back
or run forward > take laser > dash attack

how important do you think space combined with actions the opponent committed to before they took the laer in determining what they will do after? I have noticed that it seems very important. So most of the factors i've learned about this action after laser thus far are
1) What they're doing when the laser hits them
2) What they did before the laser hit them
3) What I did before the laser hit them
4) The space in between me and the opponent when they take the laser, also being cornered or them being cornered plays a big factor

Is this anything else I am missing here?
Just kind of listing my thoughts and hoping for more guidance :L

C)
A few more shiek specific questions because I need help haha.

1) How do I deal with the more aggressive shiek recoveries such as double jump airdodge onto stage or double jump close double poof? Sami has told me to drop shine bair her for the double poof and sh bair the double jump airdodge, but I struggle reacting to the cue to figure out if she's going to do the airdodge onto the stage in the first place.
It seems like normal get up timing does not cut it with a lot of these recoveries.

2) How do I deal with shieks empty short hop into delayed fair when I am cornered? Let's say I am cornered at 80% versus a shiek who's at a mid range and she does empty short hop drift forward when i'm in a slight frame disadvantage. This situation often feels awful. How do I deal with this? Full hop over her? Roll through on a read? Shield it and play the pressure mix up stuff?


LASTLY, more general question again
I struggle figuring out when I should or should not use laser. I often feel like I rely on laser too much to begin a neutral interaction which I know is not always a bad thing, but sometimes I think I should be able to recognize the fact that i'm an advantage to begin with and don't need to laser to set up further. Do you have a more general rule to understand this? I'll find examples later to ask more because i'm really interested in fixing this.

Thanks for your time and apologies for the disorganized rambling. I think i'll find more examples to ask you about later from different falcos to get some more ideas if that is okay, pretty interested in this match up right now. Also if the twitch vods or times are being weird feel free to ignore that stuff.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Did I do this in tournament? No, I never had a chance besides Apex 2015 late bracket to really use it. Too much of my own psychological issues/not developing the skill enough got in the way before then. However that limited experience, done poorly, still shows me it can be done to the level I can do it in friendlies. But to more directly answer you, it's something you train yourself to automatically pick up. If you need extra conscious thought about it, then you should be able to slip back into state well if you've trained appropriately. So at no time should it feel like excessive thought.

Improving memory benefits everything. How you approach a situation, how you act while in it and afterward as you will be less surprised or at least prepared. You will likely also be calmer since you're able to remember things which will keep you from losing balance. Training it is usually best done right after you get hit(ask to pause the game before session starts) and gradually as you get better at it you can reserve it for between stocks/matches or when you get hit high into the air. However, you'll also be able to retain a lot of what happens right after it happens which gives you a leg up between situations as well.


Training for specific reactions requires beating the stimuli itself as well as preparing for possible situations leading up to the stimuli so it simulates a tourney match as much as possible. So for Nair OOS I'd practice beating it outright with pressure or from certain pressures I'd want to do, or from spaced moves I'd often want to do, as well as examining how easy each of these are so I can set up for them in tourney matches more easily while covering other things like grab and roll too. Then I might take a step back and plan for beating her other options like I said and what can cover most of those things. Then take another step back and figure out ways to get into my best positions from neutral and practice those mixups.

Punishing that Fair lag directly is pretty hard but possible iirc(you actually punished Ftilt startup in this clip looks like). Luckily Sheik drifted in so that makes it more possible to at least pressure the landing. And yes you'd want to set yourself up to be prepared for dash in jump forwards right there so you can perfectly stuff Fair before it comes out with Nair/laser or Bair/Dair/laser/Ftilt/Fsmash the landing for pressure or direct hit. And yeah I don't think it's always that easy to punish normally plus it's just a hard thing for Falco to punish anyway so you're often better off waiting at most spacings imo. If you grind it out then you can see for yourself what you'd like to do.

This Nair is dumb against Falco because it hits him out of so much of what he wants to do. CC, Utilt/Bair are your best options against it, but if you position it right I think you can Nair/Dair/laser it as she's falling to somewhat useful effect. This can depend on drift and such though but it seems HT only drifts in lol so at least that's kind of standardized for you.

B 1. Some people when pressured will do attacks and some will shield or dash back. It can depend on player or character or position or conditioning. However to standardize all of that for a moment, yes them being kind of close encourages more attacks. It's also more likely to have them attack again if you're signaling you may move in if you're DD'ing more quickly or just threw out a laser at a range that can link to your aerials. You seem to be on the right track with this though so if you want any clarification or can't figure it out let me know.

2. In addition to what you listed, I would add conditioning. Generally you can beat a habit out of someone. If they keep doing something then they must still be getting rewarded for it. Even if they never hit you, if they get space or seem to throw you off a little for it then that is considered a reward to some. Some habits are so ingrained to the point that this is not the case, but usually it is.

Also, most people don't have very deep gameplans vs laser so it can lead to a bit more repetition than you would see at other times.

C 1. Yeah the Shine Bair/Dair is pretty good. When Sheik gets below you or pretty close to you then hold down/away to drift into her to get the shine. From there you can body her. Even if you miss the aerial, Sheik still doesn't want to be above you and deal with Bair so it's still good. Also you can either Bair or edgedash shine or Utilt or whatever you wanna do vs airdodge if you react well. Sheik really shouldn't ever feel safe being under you since shine is so fast.

2. Yeah this is the other dumb Sheik thing. FH over, (dash)WD under, Fair through(occasionally can Nair through depending on your exact definition of mid range) get on a platform if it's BF/DL, roll through early occasionally, shield it and go to edge are probably your better options. The key to beating it isn't exactly knowing any of this, but not wasting time shooting or doing excessive DD if she's at a spacing where she's just gonna run up and do it though. So if you laser and then she's jumping over your laser, you either need to stop doing predictable lasers or shoot higher. If you're DD'ing a lot and not shooting and she does it to you and you don't react, you have a mindless DD and need to have more meaningful movement.

Not very sure how to answer your last question, but my rule is usually "don't shoot more than two lasers in a row." That somewhat includes DD'ing between lasers as well. So if you find yourself sitting in place and shooting a lot, then it's like what I said above about mindless actions.

Actually, have you heard of intention theory? That will help a lot if we get that out of the way.

 

[Yort]

@Dr_PeePee

a
How does the rule you have on not lasering more than twice somewhat include dash dancing inbetween lasers?

Do you think there's room for more dash dancing after laser when people are in a bad spot like holding shield in the corner assuming I have to wait for longer?

Mindless dash dancing is one of my biggest faults from my perception. I have put time into understanding dash back and dash forward and think I have had some success but it is still a huge issue. Do you have any advice on less dash dancing mindlessly and more meaningfully aside from practicing basic tools and set ups? Or maybe a rule on what positions to avoid it.

1) Is more dash dancing useful when they're in the air to shark? Such as a shiek full hopping above
2) When they're holding shield and you want to wait and pressure the oos options instead of going in or committing to an action
3) When they're cornered and you have more room to wait for a whiff and are dding outside of threat range
4) When they're on platform above you

I feel like in some situations it's inevitable that I have to wait for something. There are certainly ways to do this without dash dancing, like wavedash or staggering actions like you mentioned. However, how exactly is dash dancing a lot here to wait not as useful as mixing up my actions?

How does wavedash count as an action out of dash dance when the cue is similar and the movement gained is similar compared to just dash dancing.

Is one of the reasons you think excessive dash dancing is bad because of the fact that you are not putting out consistent visual cues to entice your opponent?

What do you think of quick close dash dancing? How do people react to this? When I see my training partner dash dancing quickly I do not know what dash to react to or what to expect. You said above that it implies aggression from the opponent, how come?

b
I watched that Lucien video on spacing you recommended.
Do you always recommend the tip of the dash dance to be outside the threat range?

Do you think falcon with his dash sh nair has the largest threat range?

How does laser impact the threat range?

I feel like most of the game is not played at threat range but more inside of it or just outside of it, how do I balance and implement the knowledge of threat range into something useful, considering it's not something that is constant in games.

Should I practice dash dancing and moving just outside of threat ranges to get the feel of where the tip of my dd should be?
Should I be shadowboxing set ups at the threat range? Are certain set ups better for this? Do I need to differentiate which spacings my set ups are useful at?

What is the threat range like when peach is in the air floating? What about puff in the air threatening with bair?


c
When are people inclined to hold shield?
I figured it is generally only inside the threat range if used properly. When they expect attack or feel adequately threatened to shield.
Why would laser force people to shield? Simply the threat of sh aerial attached to it?

When do you recommend using wd oos? I was practicing a bit of shielding when I got close in the threat range and wavedashing away when I reacted to them moving backwards or creating space. Do you practice wding oos at these different ranges and do you do it on reaction to them moving away etc?

What do you think of laser oos to beat them for not pressuring your shield vs wavedash oos? (assuming they are moving backwards)

When you do delayed aerials, do you react to the fact they are holding shield when you are in the dash sh itself?

If true, does this also apply to when you are doing long cross overs?

Does the long crossover nair i've seen you do a lot vs falcon for example cover both wavedash back / roll oos while also being safe to hold shield?

How do you prepare a delayed aerial?

This is where all these questions came from, i'm trying to figure out shield and when people shield because I've struggled in applying late aerials well and I think it comes from not understanding or reacting to the fact that people shield.


d
Do you use intention theory to explain why people engage in habits that still have some reward?
How do you relate it to melee?

What do you think of habits that are deeply ingrained, do you have any recommendations to cut out habits that are deeply in grained?

What advice do you have for breaking habits in general?


e
Why would fair be useful in beating shieks delayed fair after sh over nair? What properties does fair have that might make it useful here?

If I am lasering and waiting to react to what my opponent does out of laser, should I play the mix up based around what they're going to do AFTER the action they do out of laser?
For example, if a marth does dash back out of laser should I try and play around what I expect after the dash back?
I've been doing this with success, I expect the marth to dash forward after his dash back out of laser and smack him for it.
I think I misunderstood before, I was interpreting it as that you are supposed to directly punish his action you react to out of laser stun, but now to me it seems impossible to do that and more possible to read his option AFTER the action he does out of laser. Is this all on track to understanding the laser mix up?


f
This is a basic question but I deeply struggle with applying my knowledge to the game.
How do I get better at applying things? Is playing to learn or playing to win better?
How can I practice implementation / application of things I have been practicing?
Should I just have set goals before every session and work on achieving them?
I need to be way more disciplined I believe, what role do you think discipline has in this process?
What do you think about basically spamming an option while playing to learn to see how it's responded to, is this one of the main ways to play to learn from your perspective?
When i'm trying to implement something that is niche in the game, for example punishing shieks spaced fair falling from platform, which may happen once a game, how do I apply my knowledge and what I want to try assuming it happens so infrequently? How can I stay on task to punish that ONE aspect of the game I've been working on when it happens so rarely? (Let's assume here that shiek spaced fair falling off platform is only happening once a game on the right platform of battlefield).



There are many questions here, some general and some specific, that I have had in the back of my mind.
I think all your help has been very important to my progress, thank you for your time.

 

[Dr Peepee]

A. Well let me qualify. If your goal is to wait then this can be okay, but you still want to be making a decision. Making a decision requires setting yourself up to make one. So if you lasered three times in a row in place, it is not giving you tons of new data and also telegraphing your plays to your opponent. If they play Fox they may jump over you and hit you after seeing one or two. Even if you put dashes between lasers two and three, if you're only tunnel-visioning for an approach on the ground then the FH'ing Fox will still surprise you. For this reason, my rule is meant more to teach people to make a decision/observation and to speak to how others tend to respond to lasers.

Don't ever do more than 3 dashes without making a decision/observation. There's your rule. It is occasionally breakable, but I want you to never break 1-2 dashes without making a decision/observation right now. Practice it.

1. You don't need to DD that much ever, and certainly not that quickly. You want to be threatening Bair or Utilt, so you'd need to dash so that you can stop and Utilt or reposition for Bair if she drifts away(dash in pivot or long dash in, short away depending on spacing).

2. You want to condition them even if you're waiting often. Give yourself a chance to punish them and give them a reason to challenge you. Get close with a dash or jump, or move away so they think they are safe. This can take just one action often. Then you observe to see how they handle this(you can back up after getting close to see what they did) and then punish accordingly. If you don't set yourself up to observe you won't know how your manipulation worked. Lasers are helpful for this. Laser gives you that frame advantage leeway to observe and can be combined with dashes sometimes to either catch them moving as a result of dash manipulation, or gives you a new manipulation after dashes to combine with them. So if you dash back to give them space and encourage them to move and then you laser in place, you would be very safe from any oos play and catch their response, but add in more manipulation if your extra space did not immediately encourage their action. This is just one example of many.

3 and 4 sort of seem like you want more specifics but I imagine the practice I encouraged you to do before will force you to realize them. Things like working in more SH/DJ out of a dash or two for platform games come to mind.

Dash dancing a lot can be good as it speeds up the tempo of a match and Falco has some decent options like Nair/Bair out of it. However, doing so quickly means your mind is so focused on doing the inputs it cannot focus on the opponent. If you REALLY want to practice doing tons of dashes while still watching your opponent you could probably do it, but I think that would just diminish how hard it is but not eliminate it. It's better to just be more minimalist. There can be other problems like you position incorrectly because your opponent acted at a slightly different timing than you expected so you're facing the wrong way/positioned the wrong place, or you just can't react with a useful option because Falco's long dash is still small and his jumpsquat is pretty long so you can't easily just dodge and counterattack in some spaces where you'd like to just wait and whiff punish. With any rule, there are exceptions as I said, but you're better off being minimalist until you understand it better.

WD is basically a really slow dash that shifts your entire space to a new center, while dash only temporarily or slightly shifts your position. Said differently, WD shifts your entire DD space.


B. For starting position, yes. Though as you'll see in practical matches this is not always feasible. Still you need a benchmark.

I think Marth's threat range is longest but also slowest of the top tiers + Falcon. Falcon's is kind of weird but his is similar to Marth's.

Laser and threat range....I haven't fully answered this satisfyingly for myself honestly. Laser sort of feels like a switch you hit to change threat range, and it seems to cause threat ranges to shift much more drastically than in other matchups. It is more complicated than this, but I would focus on just the starting range without laser then play around with adding it in and see how it feels to you.

Inside threat range is made easier for you with laser thankfully, but it's also a space in which you cannot usually react to everything. Because of this you'll need to do things to set up reactions in this space. This is part of why I like half dash back laser so much.

To that list of questions: yes.

Depends on how high Peach and Puff are. Even so, they don't reach as far as you do imo. Peach has a bit of a float forward into Fair, and Puff similar into Bair. Try playing around those moves and how you'd specifically beat them to get an established spacing going.


C. People often shield if they feel they cannot avoid an attack in any other way. But it could also be fear or messing up a PS I suppose. So yes mostly consider it about the SH threat attached, as well as Falco's poorer grab game.

I WD away OOS when I need to get away from an opponents' threats quickly and my FH may not be a good option or I want to CC a possible attack on my escape. Often it's used more when I have less stage than my opponent or I've lost a laser battle.

Laser OOS is a very good mixup for WD away OOS for that reason, as is mixing those with FH OOS. I also like WD in shine OOS.

Sometimes I react to shield, sometimes I don't. It depends on how the situation went and how much time I have.

Yeah that's why I crossup Nair, but also getting behind Falcon is really good.

D. Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about first/second/third intention for attacking or counterattacking. So if I attack by running straight in that's first intention, but second would be I run in and fake and then attack, etc.

Beating old habits is mainly about starting new ones and practicing those, but it can also be about analyzing why the old one was useful and thinking more deeply about it.


E. Fair you can do early to beat her Fair before it comes out, and DEHF told me that your Fair actually outranges hers so that's pretty cool. Also Nair is more likely to lose/trade with her Fair and you'd need to be really close and time it very well to hit her Fair end lag.

It depends on how close you are, but yeah you'll often be punishing what comes after their laser action.


F. Playing to learn will help you learn more, and is definitely what you should be preferring right now. Playing to win is integrating your knowledge and keeping your killer instinct alive but most people overpractice this.

Have good practice that can transfer to friendlies and then that will apply fine to tourney. Good practice is based on replicating real match scenarios. Shadowboxing is about training for real possibilities and sharpening your ability to handle them. Practicing basics informs your shadowboxing. This is why basics are so crucial.

I think setting goals before training is useful but not exactly required. I'd also recommend writing down your thoughts on the training when you're done so you'll know how well your process is working day in and day out.

Yeah you can option spam to learn it, or take it away and see what its absence does.

Punishing Sheik falling Fair may be something you need to train with a partner/maybe 20XX bot moreso. You may also need to visualize it/run through possible other solutions the Sheik can have to mentally keep your mind in the mixup.

 

[Yort]

I don't understand how you use observation and decision interchangeably, I think this will clarify a lot for me actually.
So in a sense you can keep dash dancing past 3 if you make an observation on something and choose your next action in response to that with?
How exactly would you define observation and decision? Is there any distinction for you?


What about very slight dash dances, imagine the setup laser in place > slight dash forward > long dash back > slight dash forward > dash back
to bait and pressure shieks nair oos when she lands
These two forward dashes are both very small, is that still breaking the rule? The amount of time I spend dash dancing here is very similar to three medium length dash dances. I am probably over complicating things, but I think understanding what exactly you mean by decision would help me a lot here.
Assuming I make the observation on the fourth and slight dash back, I act afterwards with a sh delayed nair to pressure the shield I believe will come next.

Also, dash forward is great at baiting nair oos from shiek right? Break space with dash forward and she might attack or whatever if she thinks you are threatening aerial out of that dash.

lastly, something I meant to ask you a while ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCW6Z8lNSrE&t=622s
at 10.17 in this set it seems like you do empty dash dance outside of his shield and asdi his jab when he wd jabs into sh fair punish. This was insane.

How do you asdi so readily during your dash dance and also during your wavedash like you said above?
Do you just hold the c stick down during your dash dance / wd and quickly move your thumb if you need to use any of the other buttons?

Do you asdi down during almost all of your uptilts / wavedashes / dashes? OR is there specific set ups where you hold it anticipating something, like the situation vs duck above. That punish seemed so pre meditated it was sick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIPB6MLLso&t=426s
Here's another one at 8.20
How'd you do this asdi? Did you observe that he was falling with fair when you were landing and then hold down and turn around uptilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

An observation is a decision. Doing nothing is a decision. A decision is making an attack or a defensive option or a wait or a watch or some combination of these things. Dash forward WD back allows you to guaranteed make an observation during WD back for example. The main difference between observation and decision is you're directly looking for something to inform your decision(if you're about to make another one) with observation, and decision includes observation as well as stuff like attacking. You can also observe during movement such as multiple parts of a dash forward, but for the sake of clarity lets ignore that for now.

You are breaking the simplicity rule yes, but you could still do this if you included decisions throughout the series of actions. Again, I think that is going to overcomplicate things so you should just stick to simpler stuff right now.

Dash in can definitely encourage Nair OOS, though if you're close enough and laser her shield you'd often get the Nair anyway since she'd have to pre-empt your attack.

Nah I don't think I ASDI'd that. If I did it was probably because I did the Dair input and it allowed me to hold down and then I could Fair afterward, which I get away with sometimes doing that or WD inputs.

I'm also not sure that was ASDI but I probably was holding down to FF there. I would often just keep holding down even after I had FF'd so I could get occasional CCs/ASDI downs and to be sure I hit the FF.

 

[Yort]

https://youtu.be/fUKDqKygZCo?t=143
Would you consider this punish excessive dash dancing?
Did you do two dashes, make an observation that he is holding shield, and then make the decision to wait for an attempt to punish the nair?

https://youtu.be/fUKDqKygZCo?t=30
Would you consider this excessive?
Here you did 5 dashes, did it follow similar logic as the first one I posted where you did 3 dashes, observed the shield, made the decision to do two more dashes and then approaching whiff punish dair if he naired?

When whiff punishing with dair do you mainly do the earliest dair possible or should it be slightly delayed?

Would you consider an observation and a reaction to be synonymous?
While on the other hand a decision could entail something proactive like an approaching laser to see how the opponent responds.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes and no for the first clip. No because of what preceded it, the long dash I added in there to encourage a response, and because it's m2k. Yes because it is not something I'd normally recommend or do myself.

That second clip is similar.

I mainly do earliest possible Dair, but it can depend on my readiness, how I set it up, what move I'm beating, and my confidence. If I want to cross the opponent up because I'm not sure I may just yolo Dair through them like Mango does. Also if their percent is mid or high then early Dair is much more acceptable since they're far less likely to punish it.

An observation leads to a reaction/prediction.

 

[Yort]

What is the difference between reaction and prediction?

Would dash forward > long dash back function similar to dash forward > wavedash back in terms of how you are forced to make an observation during the dash back?

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=78
Here did you do long dash back then you observed armada land into shield and then your nair on shield was the reaction?
Wouldn't this also be a prediction of them continuing to hold shield?

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=176
with this one, did you do waveland back > dash back
observed him holding shield during your waveland / dash back and then decided to approach nair predicting his response would be wavedash forward?

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=126
here you observed during both the long dash > wait
and also the short hop to see where he was floating before you decided to bair correct?

https://youtu.be/qhIPB6MLLso?t=334
Here, did you observe during the dash back that he was jumping, that he was falling during the dash forward, and then crouch to tank if he attacked, and observed his air dodge in the crouch which you then lasered?


Can you define observation, reaction, decision, and prediction for me again?
I know you've answered most of these for me and I feel like I finally have a decent grasp of what these terms mean for you now but I've been wrong before and I want to make certain.

I am going to go take your advice and practice simplicity and find rules for myself and hopefully only come back if I have more specifics.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Reaction and prediction are closely related. They feed into each other. Reaction is more about seeing something then responding, and prediction is more about guessing and setting up reactions/coverage though.

Yes, but the differences in the tools will inherently make this different.


First video: yes

Second: Yes but I predicted hold shield or jump OOS. I foolishly predict jump OOS too much with armada and he tends to WD back more against me. I generally try to catch many jumps OOS with Nair and go for this somewhat often.

Third: That's right.

Fourth: Yep.


Observation- Information gathered in a match. Set up not only during dash backs btw. Can come from waits, SH/DJ hangtime or other waits, and even during dashes inward.

Reaction- A response to stimuli. Something you set up. Can be a response to many things or one thing, but the more things(or sets of things) you train to react to the better I notice.

Decision- An action with a purpose.

Prediction- An (educated) guess about what will happen, and usually setting up a way to confirm/deny that guess as well as manipulate responses.

 

[Yort]

What type of nair do you do that is safe on shield and also catches jumps easily?
I figured you had to do earliest possible nair to catch jumps, or at least that's what i've been doing for some reason.
Do you just short hop, nair a bit late and then ff after the shield/hitstun?

I do not really understand how you are so good at reacting to specific situations this quickly, does this come from years of analysis and training each specific situation?

I've been practicing observing and then reacting out of dash back and I just feel lost. It feels so tough to react to what I see while also selecting the right option that beats my prediction on their out of shield option etc.
Is the goal to train yourself to make this intuitive?
Do you think focusing consciously on reacting to specific things will make me intuitively be able to deal with it later?
So some parts of melee involves me just constantly looking for situations to consciously improve on and then moving on?

I honestly just don't really understand how you are so good at observing and then choosing the correct prediction so quickly sometimes. I have practiced pausing when you react to their action so I can see when you act, and it seems like you are reacting for sure, I just don't understand how you decide what to respond with so quickly, and then execute it so quickly.
How have you trained your reactions so well?
I understand years and years of practice and deep thought but it is still kind of mind boggling to me.
I will try to use what you wrote me earlier about reacting to specific stimuli for this. It probably answers this question.

 

[Dr Peepee]

There is a buffer FF Nair you can do that can probably be safe on shield and catch jumps, but I never did it despite knowing about it for years. It was my main Falco weakness tbh. I just mixed early or mid or late depending on what I wanted to cover.

You don't start practicing these compound actions. You will drown in the complexity. You practice the basics first. Back to WD, laser, dashes, etc. SHFFL itself is technically a multi part action. When practicing the basics, you think of their purposes individually. So what a dash does by itself. How it influences the opponent and sets you up. Other properties of it. Then you move on to another tool. Eventually, you can combine tools. At this stage you get what each tool does individually but new complexity through combination(greater than the sum of its parts). At this stage you practice compound actions and think through them. Then you build others or offshoots of these compound actions, and this is what shadowboxing is.

It takes two things to react as I do. One is situational knowledge that comes from deep analysis, and the other is good practice and understanding of basics. You need both.

 

[Yort]

a
Can you explain the theory of intention and how it relates to melee?
The source I was looking at was talking about a theory of motivation for human behaviors, seems different from what you are getting at.

"Are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about first/second/third intention for attacking or counterattacking. So if I attack by running straight in that's first intention, but second would be I run in and fake and then attack, etc. "

Can you give me an example of third intention?
What about intentions past third intention, are these relevant?
If my intention was to attack with approaching nair:
1st intention - attack immediately
2st intention - feint and hopefully force a whiff/reaction which I then attack
3rd intention - feint and observe, feint again and then attack
Would this be a good example?

How does theory of intention play into creating set ups and understanding tools?


b
Looking at the set up dash forward > wd back
In this set up, the wavedash back would be the decision correct? So here, I am deciding to feint with wavedash back and observe during it?

Imagine I observe a shiek ftilt during my wavedash back and I know that I do not have enough time to directly punish it with dair, if I decide to do approaching laser to hit her dash back would this be a prediction and also a decision?
What types of actions do you classify as not decisions? Things that don't have direct intention maybe?


c
I think I am still struggling to determine what exactly a decision is in your terms.
Many things seem to constitute a decision, what is the different between a dash back that is a decision and one that is not?

Why should to be making decisions more quickly than you think they are?
You do think this is important right, and one of the reasons you stress less dash dancing and more deliberate movement?

Do you in particular observe during every wavedash back and base your next action off the observation?
Or is it only certain wavedash backs that you specify to be an observation point?
Should I strive to be observing and basing my next action off of my observation during every wavedash back, or should they sometimes be attached to a more pre emptive decision?

I guess I don't understand why you are not just constantly observing during every action, is this even possible? I know you wrote about a barrier with difficulty when people are focusing on tech they cannot make accurate decisions as well. Is there anything else?

earlier question kind of reiterated:
For example, do you ever pre-emptively decide to do wavedash back > approaching aerial or do you always try to observe and decide what comes next during the wavedash back itself, I feel as though you don't have much time to observe during the WD back so it is tough to even determine what action they are doing :S.

https://youtu.be/a3EvVrX7jls?t=111
here is an example of above:
You did wavedash back into immediate approaching nair oos.
Did you base your decision off of noticing his dash back during your wavedash thus assuming he would dash forward because he reacted to the shield / wd back?
or did you decide to wd > back aerial when you noticed him whiff the grab and assumed he would come back in when he saw you shielded instead of punishing his whiffed grab?
How do you think this wd back oos into approaching nair worked? Where was the decision?

Here is something you said a while ago on the marth threat that I have been referencing:
That said, you build your action to be conscious. You can do this in practice by doing deliberate action sequence practice. Basically do 1-2 dashes and then a move, or a move then dashes, or a move between dashes and then you add in WD jumps etc. Here's something simple: run forward SH Fair in place. You first need to understand the importance of each of these tools individually and how they work together, but skipping that for now you'll see you can reliably pressure the opponent and take some stage space with this sequence. You may also note that on your dash forward you could react to your opponent coming in to disrupt your jump/Fair(conditioned response) and you can now just grab or early Fair or WD back or whatever. So practicing simple options can lead to very deep results. I'm sure if you ask more questions here you will get more ideas from those who have been working on it since I talked about it a while ago. Hope this is helpful.

So in this set up, you built a decision point into the dash forward, and that decision point is observation, and then you base your next decision off of that observation. Before I assumed that tings were a bit more black and white and that decisions came at the END of set ups, not the beginning, but if the dash forward serves as an observation then it IS a decision in itself.
For example if you did WD back on a prediction of sh nair forward from fox to grab him for it, the WD back would also be a decision?
So this combination of actions would be two decisions, one being observation and the other being prediction based on factors such as conditioning with dash forward or player specific habits or things such as seeing him dash back and assuming he will dash forward afterwards.
This goes back to the earlier question, is the end goal to make almost every action a decision?
Is this what you mean by trying to make your actions conscious?
What exactly do you mean by making your actions conscious?
Do you want EVERY action to be conscious?
Why or why not? What is the end goal here?
I believe I asked something like this earlier but maybe this time it's with different context :s

This post is way longer than planned again.
I am still hazy on the conceptual stuff, so I appreciate any help on this. I have not veered from the basics and I am trying not to get off track. I think I am close to getting some sort of grasp on this structure, but I keep running into more complexities, which I think is a good thing as long as I stay focused on my original themes as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

A. Yeah that's basically it. Intention theory is about layering your threats. If you laser and someone attacks OOS immediately, then you hit them afterward, second intent. If you laser then dash in, and the dash in forces a response, you can argue that's second or third(I'd call it second still) but the point is that you can build your strategy to cover this or account for their counter and then go for the later intent. Obviously if you Bair and beat a Nair then that can be first intent vs first intent and you win, so it's not always about being one intent earlier or later, but it's used to help structure your setups. Tools are ways to introduce intent, with threats extending from dashes or lasers or whatever carrying an intent level with them.

B. The WD is sort of a decision, but if you did it aimlessly then it wouldn't be. You must make sure to observe during the WD or it's subsequent moments for it to count as a decision here imo. Decisions are conscious, in other words. But yes the WD is a decision we could say.

Yes to your next question.

C. Really, anything could be a decision. Doing nothing could be a decision. However, I am forcing the rule of a decision on making an action that is conscious and separate from dashes, because so many people do mindless dashes now.

You want to do less movement so every movement is purposeful. Doing extra actions takes too much mental toll and draws focus away from the opponent. Also it's usually never practiced and not with clear goals so it just is wasteful and hurts you.

When I am well, yes I observe off of every WD back. Sometimes if you are closer you may have to pre-empt a decision but normally WD back gives you the space/time to observe at least a little.

Yes you can observe during every action, but some make it easier than others. So I'm trying to make it easier to get into the habit of observing by forcing people to use less excessive action and deliberately practice.

You may decide a little more or less in advance, and if you're really confident in your read you may not observe that much if it makes sense. Reads and reactions are quite relative. Also, people's habits make it easier to go for more reads later on in a set because you should have gained them with observations earlier on. Still, that doesn't mean forgoing reactions or observations.

Ah, this was largely a read because I know Mango likes to push in when off balance(he was from whiffed grab). I WD'd back because I was too slow to react to his grab and then during the WD back I likely decided I'd push back in immediately.


Yes, every action should be conscious, and if I'm being honest, should consist of at least one decision in it. However, I am trying to keep it very simple for practice purposes.

 

[Yort]

What's the deal with all the nairs at the beginning of this yoshis game?

https://youtu.be/qhIPB6MLLso?t=8

do you ever purposefully jump behind shieks shield when pressuring to cut off nair oos?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not totally sure. I wasn't exactly all there that event lol.

And yes I do.

 

[Yort]

"When I am well, yes I observe off of every WD back. Sometimes if you are closer you may have to pre-empt a decision but normally WD back gives you the space/time to observe at least a little."

How do you go about practicing observing off of a basic tool such as wd back or laser?
Do you practice the option by itself while also imagining the opponent at different ranges / doing different actions and then thinking about what you would decide next based on that? Is that one way of practicing basic actions?
A lot of analysis and thinking to supplement what decision you'd make i'd imagine.

I have been trying it with 20xx bots because they're always doing stuff fast and it's tough.

 

[wendell]

Hey peepee, i have a question about mix ups, you can pm me if you don’t want others to see the answer lol. Some people say to remember people responses to agressive mix ups but i often get confused about that because diferent people react in diferent ways after diferent previous actions. For example, if i
Wd back + empty jump + dash in nair

My oponent responds to each action respectively with:

Fair out of range + wd back + shield.

And then, against another opponent i did the same mix up
Wd back + empty jump + dash in nair

And the opponent 2 responds with respectively with:
Dtilt + shield + empty jump

How would you analyse this situation for data purporses after the sets? You would remember all the responses to each action you did to both players or just the final response of the mix up (the shield and empty jump)? You would notice they both shielded in the middle of the mix up and make this a pattern? I try to make notes of responses to my mix ups but i don’t know if i am really learning in the process or just writing a lot of useless stuff.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"When I am well, yes I observe off of every WD back. Sometimes if you are closer you may have to pre-empt a decision but normally WD back gives you the space/time to observe at least a little."

How do you go about practicing observing off of a basic tool such as wd back or laser?
Do you practice the option by itself while also imagining the opponent at different ranges / doing different actions and then thinking about what you would decide next based on that? Is that one way of practicing basic actions?
A lot of analysis and thinking to supplement what decision you'd make i'd imagine.

I have been trying it with 20xx bots because they're always doing stuff fast and it's tough.

Prime yourself for possible outcomes, and also just wait to observe responses at first as you get used to seeing things. I still think you're overcomplicating things and should practice basic actions alone, outside of any cpu/human interaction to get used to the tools for real first.

Hey peepee, i have a question about mix ups, you can pm me if you don’t want others to see the answer lol. Some people say to remember people responses to agressive mix ups but i often get confused about that because diferent people react in diferent ways after diferent previous actions. For example, if i
Wd back + empty jump + dash in nair

My oponent responds to each action respectively with:

Fair out of range + wd back + shield.

And then, against another opponent i did the same mix up
Wd back + empty jump + dash in nair

And the opponent 2 responds with respectively with:
Dtilt + shield + empty jump

How would you analyse this situation for data purporses after the sets? You would remember all the responses to each action you did to both players or just the final response of the mix up (the shield and empty jump)? You would notice they both shielded in the middle of the mix up and make this a pattern? I try to make notes of responses to my mix ups but i don’t know if i am really learning in the process or just writing a lot of useless stuff.

People will have a delay in reaction sometimes or for certain actions, so you can't always assume there's a direct correlation. I'd pay more attention to the shield and the next action like you did. For everything else about your question, I think Yort and I have been covering a lot so I'd check out the previous posts lol =p

 

[wendell]

Good answer, i’ll try to notice more delays and right away responses from my opponents based on my mix ups. Btw, just for my curiosity: Did you read a lot of books about intencion theory and apply ideas in smash or you just use the layers concept to the game based on intencion theory?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I only saw a short post from someone about intention theory before, but I cross-referenced it with other ideas I was using to learn and fleshed it out some.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Random question that I saw on reddit but am now having doubts about my answer:

Falco's f-tilt spaced so the furthest hitbox hits shield, does that hitbox come out on frame 6 of the move? It looks like the frame 5 hitbox is behind Falco.

If that's true, then the move would be -14 on shield instead of -15 on shield, which would mean characters like Game and Watch would no longer have a frame perfect f-air out of shield punish on it, and Puff wouldn't be able to frame perfect wavedash rest it.

 

[JustJoeIL]

I've finally decided to take a more disciplined approach to honing some skills. The first I decided to work on is shadow boxing. Thing is I don't quite think I understand fully what the "shadow" should be doing. I either imagine doing what I might consider too little, or too much to mentally keep up with and to play it out as if it were a game. Any wise words on that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah, don't start with shadowboxing. It's too complicated. Instead, focus on doing your basic techs again, but this time focusing on the importance of each one. You want to include how each one influences your opponent. So for a WD you want to think of how changing space and that lag from it, and the options out of WD influence your opponent for example. You also want to just be able to do WD without devoting mental energy to it so you can focus on your opponent, so practice serves at least a dual purpose.

 

[Scroll]

Hey PP
I am trying to work on my laser game and I find that some of the fundamental lasers are giving me trouble. Mostly talking about the lasers in neutral. From what I can gather the optimal spacing to shoot a sh laser from (while staying safe) is approximately 1 roll length away from the opponent. Now as for characters that doesnt have lasers they wanna be on approximately half of that distance from you (where dash dance is effective). Within this distance I find that I often get punished outright when trying to sh laser. How do I work around this spacing, what am I looking for? And how do connect an appropriate sh laser into a shffl'd aerial approach? Am I right in assuming I wanna catch a jump with the laser? (in which case I land before them and can advance on them "safely"?)
I know there goes alot more into it than that, but getting some confirmation if I am on the right track would be nice.

 

[DownDog]

What is the most consistent method of multi shining with Falco because I can't do them to save my life. I try sliding my thumb from y to b and I can sometimes get 2 down but that's about it

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP
I am trying to work on my laser game and I find that some of the fundamental lasers are giving me trouble. Mostly talking about the lasers in neutral. From what I can gather the optimal spacing to shoot a sh laser from (while staying safe) is approximately 1 roll length away from the opponent. Now as for characters that doesnt have lasers they wanna be on approximately half of that distance from you (where dash dance is effective). Within this distance I find that I often get punished outright when trying to sh laser. How do I work around this spacing, what am I looking for? And how do connect an appropriate sh laser into a shffl'd aerial approach? Am I right in assuming I wanna catch a jump with the laser? (in which case I land before them and can advance on them "safely"?)
I know there goes alot more into it than that, but getting some confirmation if I am on the right track would be nice.

Laser less at this spacing unless you just shot. Instead, work your aerials or even Ftilt or CC. If you need to then WD away or FH away or retreating SHL(full momentum) away to regain control. You're looking for what the opponent does in this space as well as what they do after a laser. Do they rush you or wait or back up or go high, etc and then you need counters for all of these. Catching their jump with Nair is much better than catching their jump with laser, but yeah the laser catch is great too so you get frame advantage to get in. It's about how you wanna do risk-reward.

What is the most consistent method of multi shining with Falco because I can't do them to save my life. I try sliding my thumb from y to b and I can sometimes get 2 down but that's about it

Honestly I kind of suck at it too lol but I'm sure others in here will know.

 

[Yort]

Dr Peepee


a
"Prime yourself for possible outcomes, and also just wait to observe responses at first as you get used to seeing things. I still think you're over complicating things and should practice basic actions alone, outside of any cpu/human interaction to get used to the tools for real first."

I have been practicing basic actions alone but I do think I have been moving too fast and tried to work on set ups / combinations too early. I have mainly focused on dash back, dash forward, wd back, wd forward, laser in place, and approaching laser. I try and just use the basic action while thinking about what it threatens and why and how that might make the opponent respond at different spacings. I then try to think of combinations and what they might do to the opponent. I will definitely take a few steps back and work on this more, as I don't think I spent enough time doing this.

Do you think this should be done with aerials as well such as bair, where I just use it over and over and think of it's purpose, or mainly with movement tools that also threaten something attached to it like short hop threatens nair or dash forward threatens jc grab?
Should I get familiar with every single decision tool like wait, stand, and roll and spot-dodge before even attempting to move on?
Personal question but considering that you think I have been over complicating things, which I agree with, in what ways do you think I have been doing this? How do I even know when I should move on?


b
https://youtu.be/3ZKx_VtnrHc?t=100
Here, did you laser fsmash assuming he would immediately jump oos with nair / wd or did you think the laser would anti air and combo? He did nair oos but didn't get hit, still wondering the intentions though
https://youtu.be/3ZKx_VtnrHc?t=68
Did you do approaching laser jab assuming you would hit his landing lag and not shield?
Was the approaching laser designed to both pressure shield effectively upon landing while also lasering if he dashed back immediately, or did you know for certain he would have to shield. I am wondering when I should approaching laser pressure peoples landings versus approaching aerial.

At 1.10, did you do laser dash attack when you saw that you lasered his landing in order to hit his movement out of of shield with wavedash / jump like in the earlier fsmash situation?

Why do you do laser jab when doing pressure strings sometimes even if you should be able to observe that he is shielding when you land with the laser and know that jab can be grabbed on shield?

I have been messing around with spaced approaching laser to hit shield > turn around uptilt / bair to beat shieks immediate drift in nair oos.
Do you think this is a good idea?

Assuming the shiek is most likely to full hop / sh drift in nair or wavedash back, what can I do to pressure both of these? If I do laser > uptilt or bair I miss the pressure on wavedash back so that makes it more of a hard read while maybe I can do something like laser > dash back observe > approaching laser vs wd back or laser in place vs their nair oos.

Why do you like shine retreating aerial so much vs shiek? Is it because it beats nair oos while also letting you observe the oos options and then getting an even better position afterwards possibly if you predict correctly?

In what edge guard situations do you roll to edge guard shiek versus the usual timed normal get up?


c
What do you think the core fundamentals of melee are and how many of them are there?

Right now I consider it to be
Neutral game (which has multiple aspects, also wondering what you think the core distinctions of neutral game are)
Punish game (tech chasing, air combos, di traps, tech traps)
edge guarding
juggling
defense
recovery
ledge play (ledgedash, getting off the ledge, etc)

What is the most consistent method of multi shining with Falco because I can't do them to save my life. I try sliding my thumb from y to b and I can sometimes get 2 down but that's about it

y to b is fine just focus on the speed of Y to B instead of B to Y for now and try to flick / slide it, also I think you should just work on the singular input of grounded shine oos for now then translate that into double shines. It is the same input to some degree and that input is universal in grounded double shines, dash grounded jc shine, and grounded shine oos. Also the shine oos input is more practical earlier on anyways. Also if you do work on multi shines I highly recommend not bothering going past two, more then two isn't very useful anyways.

 

[DownDog]

Dr Peepee


a
"Prime yourself for possible outcomes, and also just wait to observe responses at first as you get used to seeing things. I still think you're over complicating things and should practice basic actions alone, outside of any cpu/human interaction to get used to the tools for real first."

I have been practicing basic actions alone but I do think I have been moving too fast and tried to work on set ups / combinations too early. I have mainly focused on dash back, dash forward, wd back, wd forward, laser in place, and approaching laser. I try and just use the basic action while thinking about what it threatens and why and how that might make the opponent respond at different spacings. I then try to think of combinations and what they might do to the opponent. I will definitely take a few steps back and work on this more, as I don't think I spent enough time doing this.

Do you think this should be done with aerials as well such as bair, where I just use it over and over and think of it's purpose, or mainly with movement tools that also threaten something attached to it like short hop threatens nair or dash forward threatens jc grab?
Should I get familiar with every single decision tool like wait, stand, and roll and spot-dodge before even attempting to move on?
Personal question but considering that you think I have been over complicating things, which I agree with, in what ways do you think I have been doing this? How do I even know when I should move on?


b
https://youtu.be/3ZKx_VtnrHc?t=100
Here, did you laser fsmash assuming he would immediately jump oos with nair or wavedash?

https://youtu.be/3ZKx_VtnrHc?t=68
Did you do approaching laser jab assuming you would hit his landing lag and not shield?
Was the approaching laser designed to both pressure shield effectively upon landing while also lasering if he dashed back immediately, or did you know for certain he would have to shield. I am wondering when I should approaching laser pressure peoples landings versus approaching aerial.

At 1.10, did you do laser dash attack when you saw that you lasered his landing in order to hit his movement out of of shield with wavedash / jump like in the earlier fsmash situation?

Why do you do laser jab when doing pressure strings sometimes even if you should be able to observe that he is shielding when you land with the laser and know that jab can be grabbed on shield?

I have been messing around with spaced approaching laser to hit shield > turn around uptilt / bair to beat shieks immediate drift in nair oos.
Do you think this is a good idea?

Assuming the shiek is most likely to full hop / sh drift in nair or wavedash back, what can I do to pressure both of these? If I do laser > uptilt or bair I miss the pressure on wavedash back so that makes it more of a hard read while maybe I can do something like laser > dash back observe > approaching laser vs wd back or laser in place vs their nair oos.

Why do you like shine retreating aerial so much vs shiek? Is it because it beats nair oos while also letting you observe the oos options and then getting an even better position afterwards possibly if you predict correctly?

In what edge guard situations do you roll to edge guard shiek versus the usual timed normal get up?


c
What do you think the core fundamentals of melee are and how many of them are there?

Right now I consider it to be
Neutral game (which has multiple aspects, also wondering what you think the core distinctions of neutral game are)
Punish game (tech chasing, air combos, di traps, tech traps)
edge guarding
juggling
defense
recovery
ledge play (ledgedash, getting off the ledge, etc)





y to b is fine just focus on the speed of Y to B instead of B to Y for now and try to flick / slide it, also I think you should just work on the singular input of grounded shine oos for now then translate that into double shines. It is the same input to some degree and that input is universal in grounded double shines, dash grounded jc shine, and grounded shine oos. Also the shine oos input is more practical earlier on anyways. Also if you do work on multi shines I highly recommend not bothering going past two, more then two isn't very useful anyways.

That's actually helping thanks a bunch!

 

[clowsui]

hi it's chi, i've talked w kevin a lot about this stuff and i asked the same questions lol

Dr Peepee
Do you think this should be done with aerials as well such as bair, where I just use it over and over and think of it's purpose, or mainly with movement tools that also threaten something attached to it like short hop threatens nair or dash forward threatens jc grab?
Should I get familiar with every single decision tool like wait, stand, and roll and spot-dodge before even attempting to move on?
Personal question but considering that you think I have been over complicating things, which I agree with, in what ways do you think I have been doing this? How do I even know when I should move on?

He's never advised me to do anything but just be simple. So if you do movement tools then isolate to one dash, or one short hop, then vary the aspects gradually. What happens when I dash from this spacing? Slightly farther? When I jump from this spacing, what do I threaten? From this spacing? How does drift change? If you do a move same kind of thing. If I bair at this spacing how do I feel? What space does it control? Does drift affect? How about timing? From there based on properties/ideas/discovery you can combine, and deep understanding is how combinations of tools accomplish uses beyond their additive combination (though I'm not sure what he means by this; he mentioned this somewhere in a Marth thread and I'm still trying to figure it out).

As for getting familiar with every single decision tool now vs. later: consistently his answer is it's honestly up to you, but just weigh practicality with breadth + depth. He's also insistent that being extremely familiar with a few strings + tools is way more valuable than being moderately familiar with many. My interpretation of this was to work on a few things at a time, confirm theories + refine them through analysis + playing with others, and move on when I felt l was being outplayed in other areas.

Dr Peepee
c
What do you think the core fundamentals of melee are and how many of them are there?

Right now I consider it to be
Neutral game (which has multiple aspects, also wondering what you think the core distinctions of neutral game are)
Punish game (tech chasing, air combos, di traps, tech traps)
edge guarding
juggling
defense
recovery
ledge play (ledgedash, getting off the ledge, etc)

from him directly
FUNDAMENTALS: Stage position, conditioning, character knowledge, neutral + sum components [[chi thoughts: zoning, TR/inside TR, intention theory, mix ups, approaching/partial approach, defending/counterattacking/interrupting are concepts we seem to talk about a lot]], combos, juggles, pseudo combos, tech chasing, mitigation, recovery, edgeguarding, edge play, percentages, maybe more

 

[Yort]

hi it's chi, i've talked w kevin a lot about this stuff and i asked the same questions lol



He's never advised me to do anything but just be simple. So if you do movement tools then isolate to one dash, or one short hop, then vary the aspects gradually. What happens when I dash from this spacing? Slightly farther? When I jump from this spacing, what do I threaten? From this spacing? How does drift change? If you do a move same kind of thing. If I bair at this spacing how do I feel? What space does it control? Does drift affect? How about timing? From there based on properties/ideas/discovery you can combine, and deep understanding is how combinations of tools accomplish uses beyond their additive combination (though I'm not sure what he means by this; he mentioned this somewhere in a Marth thread and I'm still trying to figure it out).

As for getting familiar with every single decision tool now vs. later: consistently his answer is it's honestly up to you, but just weigh practicality with breadth + depth. He's also insistent that being extremely familiar with a few strings + tools is way more valuable than being moderately familiar with many. My interpretation of this was to work on a few things at a time, confirm theories + refine them through analysis + playing with others, and move on when I felt l was being outplayed in other areas.

from him directly
FUNDAMENTALS: Stage position, conditioning, character knowledge, neutral + sum components [[chi thoughts: zoning, TR/inside TR, intention theory, mix ups, approaching/partial approach, defending/counterattacking/interrupting are concepts we seem to talk about a lot]], combos, juggles, pseudo combos, tech chasing, mitigation, recovery, edgeguarding, edge play, percentages, maybe more

Thanks chi, I appreciate it. I might ask you some questions about this stuff on facebook later considering you know a lot about these types of things. Also, aren't you coming to GA soon and staying at Samis? When is that? I would like to train with you when you are here if that is true.

That's actually helping thanks a bunch!

I actually wanted to add one process related thing that helped me a bunch in learning inputs like this.
One good way to do it is to consider how a double shine works, so in a double shine you do one grounded shine, jump out of it, and then shine again during your jump squat before you enter the air. So then you can ask, how long is falcos jump squat?
It is 5 frames, so if you are struggling to do the grounded double shine input then you are not going from Y to B within 5 frames. When you figure out this then you can deduce that the true difficult part of double shining is the Y to B input, and then you can figure out a way to get from Y to B within 5 frames. This also allows you to kind of ignore the first part of the input, the b to y part, as it can be as slow as you want while you're learning it for now. Later on, you can speed up this B to Y input in order to have better double shines, but for now you would want to focus on the Y to B input within 5 frames.
Also, this gives you perspective on your speed, if it's really so difficult going for Y to B within 5 frames then it's unlikely you're even near frame perfect on the B to Y input, you're probably even slower than Y to B.

This stuff might be wrong i'm not a huge frame nerd but uh the important part is the process, I think it's very useful to break down inputs and then focus on the most important aspects of them, slow down at first and then gradually speed up once you understand what parts of the inputs are important and how you can fix them. This is also why I think it's important to start with grounded shine out of shield because that lets you focus only on shielding and doing the Y to B input out of shield, plus it's more applicable.