PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Dr Peepee]

One way to attack it is logically. What is an opponent really thinking when you make mistakes? It's usually something like "nice free punish" in my experience, or they think about what a good job they did lol. Most people are often thinking of themselves more than their opponents in a match. In addition, are your own worries fair to yourself? Do you think everyone plays perfectly all of the time and you hold yourself to a realistic standard? Do you think there are really NO older players that haven't gone 0-2 for longer or started later and gone 0-2 for a while? The main thing is with this is to give yourself contrast and to see other people as being fair to you. Think of your concerns as if your friend had them. How would you comfort a good friend who felt self-conscious about their play, and how would you get them to focus more on the game instead?

Another good question to ask yourself is where do these thoughts and feelings come from? Asking "why" more and more and getting deeper will eventually get you in touch with root causes and thoughts/feelings you can address as well as pain you can accept before working to change. It can also help to ask "what would my ideal self think/do?" and see how it compares. Success is not just NOT doing something bad, but also doing something good and building good habits. You need both, and need to keep reinforcing those habits daily. It's a practice like Melee training.

That's a pretty good starting point and it worked well for me in addition to other things I did mentally and physically, such as meditation and exercise. Hope it helps =)

 

[Jimbo Jumbo]

One way to attack it is logically. What is an opponent really thinking when you make mistakes? It's usually something like "nice free punish" in my experience, or they think about what a good job they did lol. Most people are often thinking of themselves more than their opponents in a match. In addition, are your own worries fair to yourself? Do you think everyone plays perfectly all of the time and you hold yourself to a realistic standard? Do you think there are really NO older players that haven't gone 0-2 for longer or started later and gone 0-2 for a while? The main thing is with this is to give yourself contrast and to see other people as being fair to you. Think of your concerns as if your friend had them. How would you comfort a good friend who felt self-conscious about their play, and how would you get them to focus more on the game instead?

Another good question to ask yourself is where do these thoughts and feelings come from? Asking "why" more and more and getting deeper will eventually get you in touch with root causes and thoughts/feelings you can address as well as pain you can accept before working to change. It can also help to ask "what would my ideal self think/do?" and see how it compares. Success is not just NOT doing something bad, but also doing something good and building good habits. You need both, and need to keep reinforcing those habits daily. It's a practice like Melee training.

That's a pretty good starting point and it worked well for me in addition to other things I did mentally and physically, such as meditation and exercise. Hope it helps =)

PP this advice is amazing!! Thank you so much! I definitely see how my broader feelings of social anxiety and insecurity play a role in this. I tend to assume that other people are having the same negative thoughts about me that I have about myself, not just when playing Melee but in pretty much all social situations. Even when I tell myself it's stupid or unrealistic I have a hard time stopping myself.

Your advice is incredibly helpful. It's gonna take a ton of introspection for me to figure this stuff out but your words are helping to put me on the right path. Your ability to make connections between the game and broader aspects of people's lives has always been an inspiration to me, and hearing your input on my own issues is amazing and humbling. Thank you once again

 

[Yort]

how does dash back differ from wavedash back in terms of how it influences the opponent?


1 - wavedash is much more distinct and obvious to the opponent so it’s more likely that it will actually be the object that’s reacted to (somewhat)
2 - people might expect you to run away / try and create more space quickly.
3 - people know you have access to all your ground moves easily from wavedash back and might account for that
These were my thoughts.

Also, how do I know which of my tools my opponents are reacting to? Assuming the small amount of time the tools such as dash forward and dash back are out, it's difficult to know if it's the dash back or dash forward that's stimulating the response or something else.

 

[Nils.]

Just labbed some Falco throws on Puff at 0%. NO SMASH DI. Puff tried to escape by spamming jump each frame. Falco port 1, Puff port 2.

Backthrow > nair is not guaranteed on DI in, Puff can jump out. But if you read jump out you can go for DJ fair which seems to be able to land some sick percents.

Forwardthrow > nair IS guaranteed on DI in. Often leads to uptilt, or you can read their jump with bair or something.

Upthrow > upair is guaranteed on DI away, and so is DJ fair! Upair is easier to connect but fair can potentially deal more damage. Good news: If Puff tries to nair or fair you out of the upair you have to time to bair her before she can hit you. If the flees there is no way to chase her though. Maybe Puff can circle around the bair and hit you. You should probably fade back when doing the bair in order to be safe.

If puff DIs behind just upair.

From my experience it's good to mixup backthrow and forwardthrow at low% because if you can land a nair > uptilt > something afterwards it can lead to some serious damage. Would like to hear you guys opinions on this.

BONUS:

Backthrow > Dair is a true combo on DI in at mid-high percents! I tried this on Puff at 60% and 72%. And 60% she could survive but was still pretty far down. At 72% she just straight up died. Seems like a good surprise option.

 

[Bones0]

This might be something I have to figure out on my own, but I figured I'd post this question here and if anyone has had similar experiences I'd love to hear their input!

I got into the competitive scene a little over a year ago and started going to tournaments this summer. I took a break for a couple months but started practicing again a couple weeks ago. I've found that insecurity has been a huge problem for me when playing -- in friendlies, on netplay, in tournament, or wherever else. I'm thinking less about the match/what I'm doing wrong and more about what the opponent thinks about me. If I miss a wavedash or don't get anything off of a grab/shine or do something stupid in neutral I just imagine them thinking "why would he do that" or "this guy's trash" or something along those lines.

Does anyone have any advice for getting past that? I'm obviously practicing so I'll get better with time, but I know I'd do a lot better right now if I had a healthier mindset. I think it might also have to do with my age -- I'm 22, which feels a little old to be going 0-2 at most of my tournaments (which is a stupid thing to worry about, I know, but I still do). And maybe getting to know the people in my scene better would help as well. But if anyone has any tips or relatable experiences or whatever else I'd love to hear about them. Thanks!

These kind of mentality issues are common among pretty much anyone that competes in anything. I recommend checking out The 6 Pillars of Self Esteem and other books related to confidence, performance, etc. Anything you can find that will teach you how your mind works is valuable for improving at Melee as well as life in general. That's one of the best parts of competing imo.

how does dash back differ from wavedash back in terms of how it influences the opponent?


1 - wavedash is much more distinct and obvious to the opponent so it’s more likely that it will actually be the object that’s reacted to (somewhat)
2 - people might expect you to run away / try and create more space quickly.
3 - people know you have access to all your ground moves easily from wavedash back and might account for that
These were my thoughts.

Also, how do I know which of my tools my opponents are reacting to? Assuming the small amount of time the tools such as dash forward and dash back are out, it's difficult to know if it's the dash back or dash forward that's stimulating the response or something else.

I think the biggest difference is when you WD back, the opponent understands you are able to dash forward or backward so you are less predictable in that sense. If you dash back, you can't immediately dash back again so they are more inclined to expect you to dash forward after. The catch to this is that if you dash back and continue into run, you give up your option of dashing towards them. This could be useful if you expect them to attack the back of your DD with an overshot aerial by giving you a chance to punish with something like WD back towards them out of your run, then shine.

I think the other huge difference (may be more notable depending on matchup or specific scenario you're in) is that if you dash back, they have to worry about retreating laser, whereas with a WD back, the threat of a laser isn't as immediate. A dash back SHL obviously creates more space between you than a WD back SHL in place, so just to give a specific example, I think if a Marth saw you WD back, he'd be more inclined to challenge your new location with a hitbox or wait to see if you approach after the slight retreat. If Marth saw you dash back, he might immediately dash attack past you to catch a retreating laser or just move forward to take space (keeping in mind he isn't threatened by Falco's DD without a laser out because he can dash/wavedash back grab any approach you do).

 

[Dr Peepee]

how does dash back differ from wavedash back in terms of how it influences the opponent?


1 - wavedash is much more distinct and obvious to the opponent so it’s more likely that it will actually be the object that’s reacted to (somewhat)
2 - people might expect you to run away / try and create more space quickly.
3 - people know you have access to all your ground moves easily from wavedash back and might account for that
These were my thoughts.

Also, how do I know which of my tools my opponents are reacting to? Assuming the small amount of time the tools such as dash forward and dash back are out, it's difficult to know if it's the dash back or dash forward that's stimulating the response or something else.

Well we can look at different properties between the tools for starters. WD back is slower and goes farther, while dash is quicker and doesn't go the same distance(among other differences like what you listed about ground moves). This means the opponent is much more likely to react to one individual WD than one dash, but if you were to stall your dash backwards out you could get a similar reaction as your opponent will have time to confirm it. Quicker dashes back will behave differently and may have similar effects but not always.

You've more or less got it but I felt I should round out the discussion.

Just labbed some Falco throws on Puff at 0%. NO SMASH DI. Puff tried to escape by spamming jump each frame.

Backthrow > nair is not guaranteed on DI in, Puff can jump out. But if you read jump out you can go for DJ fair which seems to be able to land some sick percents.

Forwardthrow > nair IS guaranteed on DI on. Often leads to uptilt, or you can read their jump with bair or something.

Upthrow > upair is guaranteed on DI away, and so is DJ fair! Upair is easier to connect but fair can potentially deal more damage. Good news: If Puff tries to nair or fair you out of the upair you have to time to bair her before she can hit you. If the flees there is no way to chase her though. Maybe Puff can circle around the bair and hit you. You should probably fade back when doing the bair in order to be safe.

If puff DIs behind just upair.

From my experience it's good to mixup backthrow and forwardthrow at low% because if you can land a nair > uptilt > something afterwards it can lead to some serious damage. Would like to hear you guys opinions on this.

BONUS:

Backthrow > Dair is a true combo on DI in at mid-high percents! I tried this on Puff at 60% and 72%. And 60% she could survive but was still pretty far down. At 72% she just straight up died. Seems like a good surprise option.

I saved this for future reference lol. Also did you mess with port here?

 

[OnVinyl]

I have a couple of questions regarding the neutral against sheik.

The first is kind of a really specific situation: sheik's full hop needles, or short hop needles from a platform. With other characters, I feel like it's possible to react and dash under sheik while she's still in the air, but with falco I have trouble combating it. I feel like I always get baited because being under sheik allows you to open her up but I get stuffed trying to go in. I've tried to wait it out since the range is so short, but sometimes they needle cancel and then they approach for free. Full hop lasers are another idea I've tried, but if sheik lands first I'm in a hugely disadvantageous situation.

The other question is broader. I read through the marth neutral discussion from a little while back on this thread, and over the past month or so I feel like my lasers against marth have been much more effective and conscientious. I was hoping to start a similar discussion about lasers in neutral against sheik, since I really don't know what to use them for. Normally I use them to stuff aerial approaches or shut down dash dancing, but since sheik doesn't rely on those things as much i find myself shooting lasers without knowing what I'm trying to beat out. Most of my neutral wins come from crouch cancelling or catching sheik above me with utilt or bair, but since lasers are such a strong neutral tool I want to incorporate them in a better way. If that's too broad of a question I can try to narrow to specific situations.

 

[Calais79]

One way to attack it is logically. What is an opponent really thinking when you make mistakes? It's usually something like "nice free punish" in my experience, or they think about what a good job they did lol. Most people are often thinking of themselves more than their opponents in a match. In addition, are your own worries fair to yourself? Do you think everyone plays perfectly all of the time and you hold yourself to a realistic standard? Do you think there are really NO older players that haven't gone 0-2 for longer or started later and gone 0-2 for a while? The main thing is with this is to give yourself contrast and to see other people as being fair to you. Think of your concerns as if your friend had them. How would you comfort a good friend who felt self-conscious about their play, and how would you get them to focus more on the game instead?

Another good question to ask yourself is where do these thoughts and feelings come from? Asking "why" more and more and getting deeper will eventually get you in touch with root causes and thoughts/feelings you can address as well as pain you can accept before working to change. It can also help to ask "what would my ideal self think/do?" and see how it compares. Success is not just NOT doing something bad, but also doing something good and building good habits. You need both, and need to keep reinforcing those habits daily. It's a practice like Melee training.

That's a pretty good starting point and it worked well for me in addition to other things I did mentally and physically, such as meditation and exercise. Hope it helps =)

In this same vein of thinking, I feel like I (and I'm sure a lot of other people) have a hard time balancing doubting their tech skill/ reading ability and being realistic and practical about their limits. Two examples I can think of is I always exclusively mained Falco growing up playing melee casually and loved it and still love playing him but I'm afraid to dedicate myself to him exclusively because I think ill hit a tech ceiling I can't surpass. In that case should I just push forward and risk investing all that time or just focus on another character I also really enjoy like Marth or Peach? Or a player who has a particularly strong punish in mind but worries they wont be able to execute it properly and thus leave themselves open so they opt for less percent wth something more guarenteed.

I know the knee jerk answer is usually "set the bar high and believe you can do it and you will" but then I think of how Hungrybox chose Puff because he felt like he couldn't execute the necessary tech skill with spacies. Obviously being realistic about his abilities worked out great for him and he found his niche, no other player in the world plays Puff like him. If he had taken the above advice maybe he wouldve only been winning locals with Fox instead of being one of the best ever. I have no illusions that that will happen to me, I just wanted to give an example of knowing your strengths and weaknesses and being practical about them.

I know this is case by case and kind of vague but I wondered what you might think about this mindset.

 

[Nils.]

I saved this for future reference lol. Also did you mess with port here?

No. I was P1 and Puff was P2.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I have a couple of questions regarding the neutral against sheik.

The first is kind of a really specific situation: sheik's full hop needles, or short hop needles from a platform. With other characters, I feel like it's possible to react and dash under sheik while she's still in the air, but with falco I have trouble combating it. I feel like I always get baited because being under sheik allows you to open her up but I get stuffed trying to go in. I've tried to wait it out since the range is so short, but sometimes they needle cancel and then they approach for free. Full hop lasers are another idea I've tried, but if sheik lands first I'm in a hugely disadvantageous situation.

The other question is broader. I read through the marth neutral discussion from a little while back on this thread, and over the past month or so I feel like my lasers against marth have been much more effective and conscientious. I was hoping to start a similar discussion about lasers in neutral against sheik, since I really don't know what to use them for. Normally I use them to stuff aerial approaches or shut down dash dancing, but since sheik doesn't rely on those things as much i find myself shooting lasers without knowing what I'm trying to beat out. Most of my neutral wins come from crouch cancelling or catching sheik above me with utilt or bair, but since lasers are such a strong neutral tool I want to incorporate them in a better way. If that's too broad of a question I can try to narrow to specific situations.

If Sheik FHs and has a full stack of needles she quickly shoots, you're better off just backing up unless you react to it really quickly to get under it. Same with platform needles. If Sheik has less needles usually she will wait longer to throw them and this can give you time to get under her. So be sure to keep up with her needle count.

You shoot lasers against Sheik to keep her from dashing in to DA/Dsmash and also dashing in and jumping to Fair. More importantly probably, lasers keep Sheik in place and give you frame advantage to move closer to her to threaten your attacks without her attacking or jumping to meet you coming in. From that position, lasers help to force Sheik to jump or Utilt or shield or WD and you get to freely observe these options and eventually outplay them if you do it correctly.

In this same vein of thinking, I feel like I (and I'm sure a lot of other people) have a hard time balancing doubting their tech skill/ reading ability and being realistic and practical about their limits. Two examples I can think of is I always exclusively mained Falco growing up playing melee casually and loved it and still love playing him but I'm afraid to dedicate myself to him exclusively because I think ill hit a tech ceiling I can't surpass. In that case should I just push forward and risk investing all that time or just focus on another character I also really enjoy like Marth or Peach? Or a player who has a particularly strong punish in mind but worries they wont be able to execute it properly and thus leave themselves open so they opt for less percent wth something more guarenteed.

I know the knee jerk answer is usually "set the bar high and believe you can do it and you will" but then I think of how Hungrybox chose Puff because he felt like he couldn't execute the necessary tech skill with spacies. Obviously being realistic about his abilities worked out great for him and he found his niche, no other player in the world plays Puff like him. If he had taken the above advice maybe he wouldve only been winning locals with Fox instead of being one of the best ever. I have no illusions that that will happen to me, I just wanted to give an example of knowing your strengths and weaknesses and being practical about them.

I know this is case by case and kind of vague but I wondered what you might think about this mindset.

I've never considered myself a particularly techy player and just focus on what'll get me best results with least risk. Practice helped with this enormously when I needed to improve my tech, and seeing others capable of doing greater things helped as well(though there's stuff Hax does I'm definitely not interested in doing lol). That being said, if you want to play Falco but are worried about your tech, my guess is to say that you should wait until you actually hit a tech ceiling and try many different ways to pass it if you really want to play Falco. Keeping secondaries is useful here too so the switch won't be so hard either. But if you don't want to waste your time figuring it out, that's okay too. I don't know if I have a good recommendation, but the middle ground approach of seeing if that fear is justified or not seems okay to me. Hope that can help some.

No. I was P1 and Puff was P2.

Got it. I'll play with the ranges in reverse some later on I guess.

 

[Basod]

Dr Peepee I apologize if this has been asked before or if this is the wrong place to ask but during this set( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls ) a little before the 11 second mark why did you reverse laser and then go for a shine? Is it faster to laser fastfall shine, did you read that mang0 was going to the right, were you trying to do a phantasm to the side, or something else. Forgive and please correct me if my question is condescending or is simply uneducated. Thank you.

 

[AnonymousID]

When you start up shield pressure, is it intentional or kind of accidental? Like as falco should you go in trying to hit them with a raw aerial and if they happen to shield, you shield pressure? Or is shield pressure something you purposely do when you notice that they hold shield?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I apologize if this has been asked before or if this is the wrong place to ask but during this set( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EvVrX7jls ) a little before the 11 second mark why did you reverse laser and then go for a shine? Is it faster to laser fastfall shine, did you read that mang0 was going to the right, were you trying to do a phantasm to the side, or something else. Forgive and please correct me if my question is condescending or is simply uneducated. Thank you.

I reverse lasered in case he tried to run under me from his dash forward position and then shined since he was close and may have tried to punish my lag.

When you start up shield pressure, is it intentional or kind of accidental? Like as falco should you go in trying to hit them with a raw aerial and if they happen to shield, you shield pressure? Or is shield pressure something you purposely do when you notice that they hold shield?

Well kind of. So many late aerials are good vs CC and vs shield so often you can handle either option. However, sometimes you may want to attack earlier/higher to catch jumps or beat out other attacks and those things would lose to shield(unless you can drift backward) so it can be a risk/reward decision. Since getting frame tight safe aerials is harder, it's usually better to practice that and make sure you can do those well and set them up well and then mix as you see fit.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Dr Peepee Hope you are doing well, I'm very thankful for the update video and I'm sure lots of others are!

I've been having some trouble implementing Full Hops vs Jiggs - A lot of the time I get caught as I start my jump with early Aerials (5:25, 22:36, 26:20) or she gets underneath me and Up-Airs during my endlag, and if I start it from far away it feels like Puff has enough air speed to outrange my aerial (18:09, 21:02). Also I feel quite lost in neutral in terms of visualizing Puffs threat range and figuring out where to position myself, as well as knowing when it is safe to approach Puff horizontally. I assume these two issues are linked as better positions grant better approach options right? I also don't know what to do vs landing N-Air the aerial drift Puff has on it combined with it's hitbox below makes it hard to punish to me (21:21, 21:33, 22:39). Finally I find it hard to set up B-Air walls to stop Puff from going above me, a lot of the time she hits the top of me with N-Air or B-Air or she drifts out of the way so she wins out in the situations (0:34,4:48, 25:33).

I recorded my netplay friendlies vs a Puff here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN6TGiaosCQ and I've put timestamps after most of the situations I'm describing so it's hopefully easier to understand what I'm struggling with (It's PAL by the way if that changes anything). If you feel like watching more of it or the other group of friendlies I have vs him on my channel then I'd welcome any other observations you have as well :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

For 5:25, you lasered at a spot you hoped Puff would drift into but it's unlikely she would since she can react to your laser easily and just generally would easily lose to anything directly coming in. Then when she confirmed you'd be in massive lag during/following the non-FF laser she drifted in and hit you jumping up as you finally reacted to her position being higher. So you needed to change the way you laser and also what you do if you miss a laser/stay in lag longer. A simple solution for the after laser thing is to turnaround utilt/Bair, retreating laser/Bair, or FH straight up maybe. For 22:36, you just ran into a walling Bair that Puff used to keep you cornered as you tried to escape the corner without confirming Puff's space. Overarching lesson is to remember Puff is slow and must fight from farther away.

For 18:09, it's okay to do that FH, but you just need to drift back if Puff didn't commit harder like you hoped. FH falling on Puff isn't going to surprise her usually unless platforms are involved.

For 21:21, you have Puff in a good position and then jump in without an aerial and get hit. There's a chance Dair could've traded, but honestly switching between laser and Bair/Utilt and FH out/runoff DJ Dair can be great vs Puff in this case. Laser has you facing forward which does not carry immediate Bair/Utilt threats, making them stronger. All this to add that you really should be using more Bair/Utilt in neutral to make Puff take longer to approach and weave closer to you, which can open up more of your forward threats. And for 4:48, you Baired when Puff had already drifted back with the Nair so you didn't have to worry about it and could have empty landed to have enough time to SH AC Bair then. The lag from the L-cancel and not confirming is what got you there. Any time you can't/won't confirm something that helps Puff get into position. When you realize you have more time as I said before, the better off you'll be.

 

[Frenzy231199]

For 5:25, you lasered at a spot you hoped Puff would drift into but it's unlikely she would since she can react to your laser easily and just generally would easily lose to anything directly coming in. Then when she confirmed you'd be in massive lag during/following the non-FF laser she drifted in and hit you jumping up as you finally reacted to her position being higher. So you needed to change the way you laser and also what you do if you miss a laser/stay in lag longer. A simple solution for the after laser thing is to turnaround utilt/Bair, retreating laser/Bair, or FH straight up maybe. For 22:36, you just ran into a walling Bair that Puff used to keep you cornered as you tried to escape the corner without confirming Puff's space. Overarching lesson is to remember Puff is slow and must fight from farther away.

For 18:09, it's okay to do that FH, but you just need to drift back if Puff didn't commit harder like you hoped. FH falling on Puff isn't going to surprise her usually unless platforms are involved.

For 21:21, you have Puff in a good position and then jump in without an aerial and get hit. There's a chance Dair could've traded, but honestly switching between laser and Bair/Utilt and FH out/runoff DJ Dair can be great vs Puff in this case. Laser has you facing forward which does not carry immediate Bair/Utilt threats, making them stronger. All this to add that you really should be using more Bair/Utilt in neutral to make Puff take longer to approach and weave closer to you, which can open up more of your forward threats. And for 4:48, you Baired when Puff had already drifted back with the Nair so you didn't have to worry about it and could have empty landed to have enough time to SH AC Bair then. The lag from the L-cancel and not confirming is what got you there. Any time you can't/won't confirm something that helps Puff get into position. When you realize you have more time as I said before, the better off you'll be.

Thanks for the quick response and the detailed answers, could you expand a bit more on what you mean by confirming Puff's space and that she is slow and must fight from further away? Do you mean I wasn't respecting the space she was challenging?

 

[Ultrasatanicus]

I figured I’d post this video here if anyone wants some tips on how to use 20xx to practice using falco! https://youtu.be/Bnx5ya_Fwls if anyone has any clarifying questions about the video I’d be happy to answer

 

[xeaid]

I have a question really just for PP. I watched Leffen's video about PP's playstyle, and in it he was saying that he really seemed to go into matches with a lot of knowledge about how to beat the specific player he's playing. My question to PP is, how much are you focused about the player matchup versus the general character matchup in terms of neutral? Hungrybox says its all about the player matchup when he's fighting foxes, where do you fall on that spectrum? and when you're playing someone you haven't done research on (a lower level player), how much of your game is adapted to their playstyle as you learn it versus you just playing your game? Hope that question makes sense to a top player lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks for the quick response and the detailed answers, could you expand a bit more on what you mean by confirming Puff's space and that she is slow and must fight from further away? Do you mean I wasn't respecting the space she was challenging?

Confirming Puff's location is all I mean. You have to know where she can go in a given amount of time and not assume she's too close if you miss a laser or something. She has to fight far away because she can't easily avoid quick attacks and doesn't have the speed or massive range to get in either. Playing as her can help you understand.

I have a question really just for PP. I watched Leffen's video about PP's playstyle, and in it he was saying that he really seemed to go into matches with a lot of knowledge about how to beat the specific player he's playing. My question to PP is, how much are you focused about the player matchup versus the general character matchup in terms of neutral? Hungrybox says its all about the player matchup when he's fighting foxes, where do you fall on that spectrum? and when you're playing someone you haven't done research on (a lower level player), how much of your game is adapted to their playstyle as you learn it versus you just playing your game? Hope that question makes sense to a top player lol

Your question makes good sense. I think there's a somewhat-true conception of me as someone who can only play a player I've studied a lot, but I think I haven't had a fair chance to show what I know about the game. I think if I could only choose one ability I'd rather be good at fighting a matchup/people in general, but because I need to learn the game through analysis much of the time, I end up learning how to fight players very specifically as a result. I'm not sure I would classify myself as either player-based or matchup-based, but I think top players would say I am player-based.

 

[xeaid]

Confirming Puff's location is all I mean. You have to know where she can go in a given amount of time and not assume she's too close if you miss a laser or something. She has to fight far away because she can't easily avoid quick attacks and doesn't have the speed or massive range to get in either. Playing as her can help you understand.


Your question makes good sense. I think there's a somewhat-true conception of me as someone who can only play a player I've studied a lot, but I think I haven't had a fair chance to show what I know about the game. I think if I could only choose one ability I'd rather be good at fighting a matchup/people in general, but because I need to learn the game through analysis much of the time, I end up learning how to fight players very specifically as a result. I'm not sure I would classify myself as either player-based or matchup-based, but I think top players would say I am player-based.

I forgot what the original intention of my question was while I was writing it, but reading your answer made me remember it lol. Building on what you've said, when I'm watching your games how much of what you're doing should I view as matchup-based neutral vs player-based? To what degree are they one and the same?

 

[Dr Peepee]

To me, the game is the way in which players express themselves. So this means that these things are always going to be greatly related. I would say if you can tell when I abuse a habit it's more of a player thing than a character thing, and if I seem uncertain and do something "good" and win then maybe it's more of a matchup thing. You could also say that earlier in a match, when there is less player data to use, is where I'm more likely to use matchup-specific knowledge as I gather player-specific data.

 

[Yort]

Does the marth match up have the highest threat range of any match up because of dash attack or is it fox / falco?

How can I use knowledge of threat ranges in match ups to benefit my spacing?

How often should I be playing inside or outside of the threat range in a match up, and how does being outside of the threat range differ from being inside in terms of the influence of my moves?

What’s the winning position vs falco? Close with a laser out? Wouldn’t the winning position vs most match ups for falco be close with a laser out?

What’s the difference in effect on an opponent of an approaching laser versus a laser in place, both shot from the same distance?
Are people really that likely to factor in the dash forward sh before the laser after the laser stun has already hit them?

How can I build more waits / patience into my game?

How can I maintain focus when playing to learn and testing my theories? Keep working on it? Discipline? Constant reminders and benchmarking on progress?

How can I improve my spacing with basic tools such as late bair etc? Mainly shadow boxing / out of game stuff? It feels like in game it moves so fast it’s hard to really test my spacing ideas as much as I want reliably.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think Marth dittos or maybe Fox dittos have the highest overall threat range of any matchup. For Falco yeah it would be one of those two, but the Marth one in particular is hard to define since Marth plays primarily grounded so his will vary much much more than Fox's.

Threat ranges are your starting point. That's where you know you are safe and can plan options from there. Closer spaces than that and you aren't guaranteed reactions/safety, farther away spaces provide different effects and more safety of course. Without this, you often rely on situational knowledge that isn't fully aware of the positions you're playing, which is not helpful.

My personal goal is to push more inside a threat range while maintaining safety so I can pressure most effectively while keeping lower risk. You could push in with the intention to pull back to bait, or play farther away to encourage more drawn-out interactions. None of it is necessarily wrong(though certain characters may be better or worse at certain styles, and certain stages or positions may help certain strategies more than others).
Being inside of a threat range means the opponent can hit you without you being able to react(probably) but it also forces them to act for similar reasons, meaning actions are often quicker here. Outside is typically the reverse. I imagine that having specifics here would make this more useful but the base concept might be better off uncomplicated for now. If you want to ask for specifics feel free.

Yeah Falco's winning position is close with a laser out. Vs weaker characters it can be just Dair/Nair/Bair spaced on them/their shield though and you don't need to risk all of the closer laser stuff. Vs Falco himself if you can get the other in shield and be close enough to space a move that's pretty strong as well.

I don't know what kind of approaching laser you mean, but I'll just assume full. It would also depend on the starting position and what happened right before, as well as what happened last time in a similar situation too. That said, laser in place is a way to build momentum and cut off their attacks, so it slows the opponent and builds advantage for you. Laser forward breaches their space to an extreme degree and therefore forces a very quick action in response(either during the jump or after the laser). Should you be farther away when doing this then it says to them you want to close space quickly and even if you can't jab/Ftilt and hit them out of this laser they're more likely to assume you'll try to attack afterward(though they often prime for laser followup attacks due to frame advantage). Yes, they really are likely to do so because it's an automatic reaction to space closing off even if they're not consciously thinking of it.

More dash/WD back, more pauses after those actions or lasers, more platform play with same things in mind(but this can also include FH/DJ too), some threatening of Utilt/Bair and especially doing so under a platform in certain matchups on certain stages. Now as for places to observe, you can build that in anywhere on offense or defense and anything in between.

What do you want to focus on? Winning? That's something you need to toggle back and forth between for best results based on my experience.

Kind of hard to easily answer this. You may need to learn positions better. You may need to develop more setups for the Bair better. You may need to analyze the tool or the connected tools better. Shadowboxing to help give you setups and apply knowledge before matches, as well as playing to learn to further apply ideas is another step in this process.

 

[Yort]

I think Marth dittos or maybe Fox dittos have the highest overall threat range of any matchup. For Falco yeah it would be one of those two, but the Marth one in particular is hard to define since Marth plays primarily grounded so his will vary much much more than Fox's.

Threat ranges are your starting point. That's where you know you are safe and can plan options from there. Closer spaces than that and you aren't guaranteed reactions/safety, farther away spaces provide different effects and more safety of course. Without this, you often rely on situational knowledge that isn't fully aware of the positions you're playing, which is not helpful.

My personal goal is to push more inside a threat range while maintaining safety so I can pressure most effectively while keeping lower risk. You could push in with the intention to pull back to bait, or play farther away to encourage more drawn-out interactions. None of it is necessarily wrong(though certain characters may be better or worse at certain styles, and certain stages or positions may help certain strategies more than others).
Being inside of a threat range means the opponent can hit you without you being able to react(probably) but it also forces them to act for similar reasons, meaning actions are often quicker here. Outside is typically the reverse. I imagine that having specifics here would make this more useful but the base concept might be better off uncomplicated for now. If you want to ask for specifics feel free.

Yeah Falco's winning position is close with a laser out. Vs weaker characters it can be just Dair/Nair/Bair spaced on them/their shield though and you don't need to risk all of the closer laser stuff. Vs Falco himself if you can get the other in shield and be close enough to space a move that's pretty strong as well.

I don't know what kind of approaching laser you mean, but I'll just assume full. It would also depend on the starting position and what happened right before, as well as what happened last time in a similar situation too. That said, laser in place is a way to build momentum and cut off their attacks, so it slows the opponent and builds advantage for you. Laser forward breaches their space to an extreme degree and therefore forces a very quick action in response(either during the jump or after the laser). Should you be farther away when doing this then it says to them you want to close space quickly and even if you can't jab/Ftilt and hit them out of this laser they're more likely to assume you'll try to attack afterward(though they often prime for laser followup attacks due to frame advantage). Yes, they really are likely to do so because it's an automatic reaction to space closing off even if they're not consciously thinking of it.

More dash/WD back, more pauses after those actions or lasers, more platform play with same things in mind(but this can also include FH/DJ too), some threatening of Utilt/Bair and especially doing so under a platform in certain matchups on certain stages. Now as for places to observe, you can build that in anywhere on offense or defense and anything in between.

What do you want to focus on? Winning? That's something you need to toggle back and forth between for best results based on my experience.

Kind of hard to easily answer this. You may need to learn positions better. You may need to develop more setups for the Bair better. You may need to analyze the tool or the connected tools better. Shadowboxing to help give you setups and apply knowledge before matches, as well as playing to learn to further apply ideas is another step in this process.

Thank you.

I have another kind of unrelated question about learning in melee very generally

I feel overwhelmed right now. I feel like there is a vast amount of things I don’t understand along with things that I want to know, especially regarding fundamentals that I think I’ve largely ignored for years. I keep re reading notes and your and others advice and thinking but I just can’t shake the feeling that I don’t truly understand this stuff and I don’t know how to feel good about it. I feel like I’ll never truly grasp these things.

It makes me anxious. I try and step back and recognize its the effort that’s important but it’s hard. Do you have any tips of this type of feeling?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Honestly I think in a way that feeling is very healthy. Most people get very confident in their ways of thinking and growing and don't question enough. When you're in an uncertain state you're at least more likely to be flexible and grow.

Still, I remember feeling very much that "my feet aren't on the ground" and I felt lightheaded often when trying to work these things out with Cactus. It was extremely disorienting. So maybe I never found a good answer in my own experience, but if you keep pushing and be sure to set your training/goals up to look for tangible results to use to be sure you're on the right track you'll be okay. Things like feeling more mastery of a tool, or setting up TR for every matchup, or getting different tourney results, or playing friendlies and understanding why more stuff happens. All of that can be growth and real feedback mechanisms you can take advantage of.

 

[Yort]

How does the threat range work in falco dittos? I don't understand how threat range works in this match up as the full hopping and lasers make it confusing.

How can I better pressure falco full hopping away in general?

Generally, how can I properly push laser advantage to the fullest against falco? Why exactly is having laser control vs falco considered so good and effective?

How can I pressure falcos laser oos in the corner while also being ready to cover his roll and full hop? I feel like if I get too close to let me punish / pressure laser oos I let him get away with rolls.

Do you consider wavedash oos shine a threat that I should account into their shield threat range? Is it possible to reasonably react to this? for both fox and falco.

How can I deal with players who are proactive and defensive? Especially in falco dittos but also in general. I don't know how I should build my gameplan around players like this.

How can I reasonably threaten laser oos? Would maybe dash back at a mid range bait them into thinking laser oos is safe into dash forward nair / dair?

I did notice that when I dash forward in front of a falcos shield in corner and get real close laser oos is much less likely while roll / dair oos is more likely. Guess i'm not sure on how to capitalize.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I'll agree it's not constant due to platform layouts and lasers. I just keep it simple and say you're primarily safe if you're both grounded and outside of dash SH Nair range, and then platforms/FH/DJ can extend your range so you'd need to back up for that(though being under platforms and particular platform layouts of every stage[lol FoD] is going to complicate things). I can't make a hard and fast rule besides the grounded one, but that is a pretty good guide all the same. It's worth playing around in various positions on every stage(platform vs platform, platform vs ground, platform vs FH, different starting positions, etc) to get a better feel for general rules, specific ones for certain stages, and positional rules.

If he's FH'ing away, you can laser his landing, FH Nair/Dair him if you're close or think he won't react, DJ land on platform laser him to force a DJ or directly punish, FH Bair if he's more cornered since it'll beat everything else...might be another option or two like DJ over him to work Dair but those are some good ones.

Laser advantage is good against Falco because it lets you keep mobility while he loses his. If it hits him it also turns him forward. So you can outrange him with Bair or force him to move back/FH away as some of his primary options(though he has other good ones like Bair OOS). How to press advantage depends on spacing. If you're right next to Falco you can shine vs grab vs shine grab vs double shine etc, but if you're just a little farther away you can dash JC shine vs grab vs JC double shine vs jab(into some of these things or more) vs Ftilt, and then if you're farther than that you have options like immediate Nair vs dash in pivot Bair vs dash in laser(in place or not) and so on and so on. Basically it's better to just map out what they can do in various positions and what Falcos like to do as well. I don't know how to give a simple rule for this besides don't rush it(or at least don't always rush it).

WD OOS shine is not a concern vs Falco imo, and Fox usually won't do this because it isn't great though it is at least decently fast so it should be considered lightly. Well....might depend on what setup you want to do but ordinarily I wouldn't worry about it so much unless the opponent proves it's an issue.

Proactive defensive players don't usually want to give up stage unless provoked, so you just provoke them back a little and this will force them to make a big commitment or a defensive backup play. From there you can see what they prefer and begin abusing it. In Falco dittos, you won't always have this option. You may have to take a bigger risk on getting a laser out after taking a laser if they prefer watching and waiting to see what you do, and this can turn the tables sometimes obviously.

Yeah that's a big way to draw out laser OOS. You can also do it with WD back. You can also wait a little before acting, or do a slower setup that would give them time if they had a read, but not with a reaction.

Your last paragraph shows you'll just need to probe the positions deeper. If you have a specific situation you'd like to link we can talk about it.

 

[Yort]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1KqbWnW39w&t=3m33s

3m 34s

Here santi hit him laser on shield at med range went for nair and west full hopped out of the way before santi could hie
West drifted forward and fell with dair
Santi went for full hop bair and got hit out of it
Santi got hit out of hit but shined him because of low percent getting daired out of the air


Why did west drift forward? Did west expect him to dash towards him after the whiffed nair, which he could then pressure maybe? I think also he might have drifted forward out of this full hop because santi was so close and drifting back puts him in a riskier spot off stage when he doesn’t have to. I think this full hop drift was preemptive though but i don’t really know how to tell what’s on reaction and what’s not at this point in neutral.

Although santi took the dair and still hit west, wouldn’t he have lost to bair if west decided to bair himself? In that case would santi have to wait below the platform and react to the whiffed bair on platform? Or maybe dash far enough around the dair to space around it if possible with full hop bair to top platform etc. Also i’m thinking maybe west couldn’t have fallen with bair well here because it’s not spaced well for him, as he needs to hit below him and not the the sides. Bair falling out of the fullhop is more useful for threatening horizontally and dair for vertically, so dair for hitting people directly below (below platforms especially) and bair for hitting people coming into you on the ground.



I’m curious here as to how to reliably pressure the full hop mix ups in the corner area especially drift backwards.

I try fh / dj bair but I think I don’t space them / time them right and end up with him dodging my bair with drift back or hitting me with dair / bair in the air. I think that if I positioned closer and timed them better I would do better here.
I figure I can fix this by getting closer than I normally do before I set up for fh bair and thus being able to threaten the drift back, but this also might leave me susceptible to him jumping over me. I think I need to practice and work on full hop / dj bair set ups.


Is being closer to the opponent during their fullhop as falco recommended so I can better threaten the falling laser better? Should I get into a threat range where I can avoid the falling bair and dair and pressure the laser if need be? And if i’m threatening the laser then they’re probably less likely do it in the first place which seems nice.
Also, isn’t falco’s threat range in the air / out of full hop less than on the ground? Do you factor falco’s drift into his aerial threat range? Same with puff and everyone else pretty much, fall speeds seem to change a lot with this and i'm not sure how to factor the fall speed and drift in when considering the threat range.

 

[SalaMenace]

I've heard people say that camping the top platform with Falco is good against floaties. What exactly is the strategy for camping the top platform? Which top Falco's are best at this? Any videos of this being done successfully?

 

[Yort]

I've heard people say that camping the top platform with Falco is good against floaties. What exactly is the strategy for camping the top platform? Which top Falco's are best at this? Any videos of this being done successfully?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8iGB_5LFBAE

This is the only video I know of it being done successfully and I don’t know anything about it but the video is pretty funny

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1KqbWnW39w&t=3m33s

3m 34s

Here santi hit him laser on shield at med range went for nair and west full hopped out of the way before santi could hie
West drifted forward and fell with dair
Santi went for full hop bair and got hit out of it
Santi got hit out of hit but shined him because of low percent getting daired out of the air


Why did west drift forward? Did west expect him to dash towards him after the whiffed nair, which he could then pressure maybe? I think also he might have drifted forward out of this full hop because santi was so close and drifting back puts him in a riskier spot off stage when he doesn’t have to. I think this full hop drift was preemptive though but i don’t really know how to tell what’s on reaction and what’s not at this point in neutral.

Although santi took the dair and still hit west, wouldn’t he have lost to bair if west decided to bair himself? In that case would santi have to wait below the platform and react to the whiffed bair on platform? Or maybe dash far enough around the dair to space around it if possible with full hop bair to top platform etc. Also i’m thinking maybe west couldn’t have fallen with bair well here because it’s not spaced well for him, as he needs to hit below him and not the the sides. Bair falling out of the fullhop is more useful for threatening horizontally and dair for vertically, so dair for hitting people directly below (below platforms especially) and bair for hitting people coming into you on the ground.



I’m curious here as to how to reliably pressure the full hop mix ups in the corner area especially drift backwards.

I try fh / dj bair but I think I don’t space them / time them right and end up with him dodging my bair with drift back or hitting me with dair / bair in the air. I think that if I positioned closer and timed them better I would do better here.
I figure I can fix this by getting closer than I normally do before I set up for fh bair and thus being able to threaten the drift back, but this also might leave me susceptible to him jumping over me. I think I need to practice and work on full hop / dj bair set ups.


Is being closer to the opponent during their fullhop as falco recommended so I can better threaten the falling laser better? Should I get into a threat range where I can avoid the falling bair and dair and pressure the laser if need be? And if i’m threatening the laser then they’re probably less likely do it in the first place which seems nice.
Also, isn’t falco’s threat range in the air / out of full hop less than on the ground? Do you factor falco’s drift into his aerial threat range? Same with puff and everyone else pretty much, fall speeds seem to change a lot with this and i'm not sure how to factor the fall speed and drift in when considering the threat range.

West drifted forward because Santi put himself directly below West's FH/DJ. Since West also jumped early he had extra frames to ensure he'd be directly over Santi even if Santi reacted perfectly and moved back toward center which would make his Dair pretty safe. The DJ ensured West would be able to get back down quickly, might have encouraged Santi to counterattack, and since Santi had advantage he tried to continue to push that advantage, something FH/DJ out of the corner can prey on quite well. Normally when you FH in the corner you come straight back down and laser as they respect the Dair, but in this case Santi was too close for that obviously.

West needed to Dair because Santi got directly below him and tried some FH Uair thing. Bair would have lost to this probably.

If you wanted to win the situation Santi was in after the Nair, you'd probably have to dash/run to the right as frame perfectly as possible and FH Bair fading away and then you could probably outspace the Dair. You could also attempt to shine West's landing lag. Airdodge can mess with both of these options, so there isn't anything surefire here.

Yeah in order to beat FH with Bair/Dair you need to be close first, and for Bair you often need to dash forward pivot FH/DJ so you can stay close since you don't have dash momentum. If you're farther away/react later you can just try to laser/Bair their landing or shine it OR laser them as they descend with DJ double laser and either force their DJ or pseudo punish from there. You can also FH/DJ over them and attack.

I do factor Falco's drift into his aerial threat range, in addition to FF and platforms and lasers of course. Platforms do extend the range quite a bit, especially on YS where you can go from top platform to the ground very quickly.

I've heard people say that camping the top platform with Falco is good against floaties. What exactly is the strategy for camping the top platform? Which top Falco's are best at this? Any videos of this being done successfully?

It's good, but only on BF/DL and it's pretty grueling. Plus I think Falco beats floaties without it so it's probably not necessary, though I understand why people do it since it can be simpler. It's basically about abusing Falco's vertical mobility and Dair/Bair range over the lesser range and poor mobility of floaty characters and the high top platform when you have a lead.

 

[Barron]

Yall does falco really have a chain grab on IC's at low percent with forward throw ??

From Wobble's blog in 2009 -
"It's been awhile since I've fought really fast Falcos; they're scary. You can also see Axe using a lot of f-throw, which (for some reason) makes Nana drop her shield when he grabs you. That keeps her from being able to shield grab, which sucks. The throw hitbox also has strangely powerful knockback, meaning the two of you will get separated in a heartbeat. Falco can also CG with it at low percents "

Matches wobbles is talking about --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9OWzvb8u00&feature=channel_page

It seems that if you grab and forward throw Nana instead of Popo, Popo can shield and punish the throw (assuming he's on the ground). First 5 seconds of the video we can see Axe doing this exact thing and getting grabbed for it. Later on the in the video however, (2:20) Wobbles shield grabbed early for some reason so he couldn't shield the forward throw and got hit from Axe forward throwing Nana.

I wonder if falco can actually get away with chain grabbing an IC's at low percent though. Maybe nowadays the IC's players DI it accordingly and buffer spot dodge or something? Either way it's a good way of splitting them up. It can also set up for tech chase opportunities starting at later percents. Thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Seems kind of unlikely to me that you can CG with Fthrow due to the extra knockback from getting hit by a thrown character, but the low percent Fthrow power I didn't know about. Seems kind of risky if you grab Nana but if you can grab Popo it looks pretty good. Between this and Dthrow having wonky properties it looks like Falco's throw game against ICs has a fair bit of somewhat useful jank lol.

 

[Yort]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogwOyIDyehQ

1 -
4.56
do you think this wait after the first laser vs hax into another laser in place was on purpose or did you miss input on dash?
What do you think of laser in place into wait or stand in place before deciding? What's the difference between that and committing to movement and watching during the movement?

1.23 in same vod
here you shoot the the sh laser in place at a closer distance slight dash forward dash back and during the dash back full hop shine waveland to try and cover hax's full hop waveland on platform. Your decision point was during the dash forward right? That's where you reacted to the fact that your laser was jumped over and then you decided to cover the waveland on platform forward instead of an empty full hop or something else out of full hop. Correct? Do you think the decision point was the dash forward or dash back?

2 -
I feel like some players act on a timer before deciding to act rather than reacting or playing on previous instances. For example if i empty dash dance some players will act at a seemingly random point maybe rather than reaction.
how important do you think it is in understanding their timer?
How would you go about doing that?
How much do you think you read peoples movement out of shield for example based on a perceived timer they have to act oos?
Is this what you mean when you talk about rhythm?

3 -
If i'm lasering somebody and they don't act immediately out of shield or stun on body but wait for a little while, how should I go about adjusting my decision point? Is this where I could decide to laser again, attack, or move more based on the fact that they didn't act immediately out of laser?

For example I am trying to learn how to react to a marth nairing oos after my laser stun on shield. Assume he is a medium range about the range of marth fsmash.
If I do the set up laser in place -> long dash back -> long dash forward then during the laser and dash back I could react to him holding shield when the laser hits and I see it connects to shield I could dash forward and react to him nairing oos during the dash forward. However, if I notice during the dash forward that he continues holding shield for a while instead of acting immediately out of shield, this is where I would adjust and maybe do more movement to still wait for something or laser again to reset or attack / read his oos options? Does this all make sense? Just trying to understand decision points and reacting in neutral more right now aside from some basic tools.

4-
What do you mean when you say people are off balance, out of laser or anything, and how can I recognize this?
does this have to do with people innate timers / rhythm as I asked about earlier?

 

[FE_Hector]

It's been a while since I was in here, but I figure there's no loss in posting here, especially because of the question at the end that I'm really unsure of how to answer. Remember that most of this is coming from a pretty low-level player and just the interactions that I often see in the Fox matchup and my views on further improvement from there. It is really long though (I love writing and haven't written anything like this before), but a lot of it comes down to the paragraphs after Reaction #3. Buildup was necessary IMO. https://medium.com/@aedangarcia/dont-get-antsy-ec17d67fa496 Any opinions or takes on the question posed right near the end would be appreciated.

 

[`Rival]

question more on game mechanics here.

so as far as i know, in order to hit a tech, you have to press l or r 20 frames before you hit the ground. if you press either l or r and you DONT hit the ground within 20 frames, you will be unable to tech for the next 40 frames. as far as i know this is why tech traps work (someone please correct me if im wrong).

so if this is right, if you could trick opponents into pressing L or R early, then grab them out of the air and then downthrow them, they will be guaranteed on the ground beside falco because they cant tech? i tested a bit on 20xx debug mode and seems to work but i want someone else to try this so i can confirm?

at certain percents/situations this could be useful for setting up kills on platforms into pretty much guaranteed edgeguards (where if you use other moves, there are more reads required to close a stock). if they are just lying down on a platform, it could set up free dair/fair through platform-->dair/fsmash/dsmash (depending on what character is getting hit).

edit: nvm, i forgot people could just slide off platforms.
but it does work on the ground.

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogwOyIDyehQ

1 -
4.56
do you think this wait after the first laser vs hax into another laser in place was on purpose or did you miss input on dash?
What do you think of laser in place into wait or stand in place before deciding? What's the difference between that and committing to movement and watching during the movement?

1.23 in same vod
here you shoot the the sh laser in place at a closer distance slight dash forward dash back and during the dash back full hop shine waveland to try and cover hax's full hop waveland on platform. Your decision point was during the dash forward right? That's where you reacted to the fact that your laser was jumped over and then you decided to cover the waveland on platform forward instead of an empty full hop or something else out of full hop. Correct? Do you think the decision point was the dash forward or dash back?

2 -
I feel like some players act on a timer before deciding to act rather than reacting or playing on previous instances. For example if i empty dash dance some players will act at a seemingly random point maybe rather than reaction.
how important do you think it is in understanding their timer?
How would you go about doing that?
How much do you think you read peoples movement out of shield for example based on a perceived timer they have to act oos?
Is this what you mean when you talk about rhythm?

3 -
If i'm lasering somebody and they don't act immediately out of shield or stun on body but wait for a little while, how should I go about adjusting my decision point? Is this where I could decide to laser again, attack, or move more based on the fact that they didn't act immediately out of laser?

For example I am trying to learn how to react to a marth nairing oos after my laser stun on shield. Assume he is a medium range about the range of marth fsmash.
If I do the set up laser in place -> long dash back -> long dash forward then during the laser and dash back I could react to him holding shield when the laser hits and I see it connects to shield I could dash forward and react to him nairing oos during the dash forward. However, if I notice during the dash forward that he continues holding shield for a while instead of acting immediately out of shield, this is where I would adjust and maybe do more movement to still wait for something or laser again to reset or attack / read his oos options? Does this all make sense? Just trying to understand decision points and reacting in neutral more right now aside from some basic tools.

4-
What do you mean when you say people are off balance, out of laser or anything, and how can I recognize this?
does this have to do with people innate timers / rhythm as I asked about earlier?

With Hax I just wanted to contain him and figured he'd fly forward with SH pullback Nair as he often does lol so I did the second laser on purpose to slow him down. Those other options are good, but stand in particular can be risky as you risk getting overwhelmed mobility wise if you wait too long.
Committing to movement chains with the laser done previously and assumes I'll act on the frame advantage in some way, so it ups the tempo and is more likely to force them to make a decision(even if I just move back and shoot another laser, arguably). Watching during movement in terms of just tech means you'll have to divide your focus between pressing buttons and observing, which is difficult when untrained or when under stress from their actions. This is why keeping it simple, practicing well, and building in longer waits earlier in your training can help you adapt to mitigate the technical difficulties on your mind.

1:23- Dash forward to move in to threaten Bair/jump shine, but I messed up since I didn't jump shine his FH landing. I then reconfirmed on dash back he was moving in and jump shined there but did it too early(though it looks like I wasn't really reacting and just kinda did it since I was so early). The main important one is the forward dash, but there is also an element of one in the back dash.

2. Oh boy. Let me see if I can answer this well. So there are two main facts I want to bring up here about why this can seem to be true. One is that people generally have their own preferred rhythm they will usually try to follow. It is often different from your own. The second fact is sometimes in certain situations people will just do whatever they want on their own time. This is somewhat related to the first point.

That doesn't mean they aren't influenced by you. Even when they want to act on their own time, their resulting action may be offensive or defensive depending on how you've played or your closeness to them.

Also, keep in mind most people aren't really paying attention to what's happening in a match or recognizing positions and not practicing, so they may be focusing on their own character more and just not truly noticing. Despite all of this that I've said, I've noticed every player I've ever played without exception has been influenced by my actions repeatedly.

If you want to understand their "timer" then you need to learn positions and how your actions affect the opponent. Besides that, you'd maybe want to learn about how people act when they get anxious or feel pressured vs when they're calm or when it's a calm person doing the actions. Plenty of decent psychological books or articles to learn things from, but many times you can also learn plenty by just watching people in and out of game(or while they're playing).

This is a lot of what I'm talking about when I talk about rhythm, but I must stress that I always say you should put the game first until a higher level of mastery because you need to interact psychologically through the game. I hesitate to say any more for this reason, and it's why my answer is like it is.

3. If he stays in shield, that's a decision and he still reacted to something. "Nothing" is a decision basically, and it took me a bit to learn this. It means you need to play on whatever they're waiting for/influencing you to do. If a Marth holds shield there, some good options after dash back/on start of dash in observation are slight dash forward laser in place(to threaten grab for example), SH Nair in for pressure(or laser in to also catch WD back or have less lag in case of roll, among other reasons), or to simply reset with another laser in place.....you can also stall out the movement and then do a laser or go into some of these things. It's quite variable. The most important thing is to not DD mindlessly just because he didn't move. Set up a way to usefully wait or pressure or set up a better position etc etc

4. It does and doesn't have to do with rhythm. I would say someone is off balance when they're in a losing position or they were surprised by an option in a position, or they get hit but not comboed, or they're in a dropped combo and transitioning back from a damaged state to resourceful state. Recognizing this can be obvious like people holding shield for a while or panic spotdodge/rolling/jumping/attacking, but it can be more complicated like an altered dash pattern.

 

[SalaMenace]

Hey can we talk a bit about approaching vs letting your opponent approach? I usually like to be the one approaching because I'm the one dictating how the encounter goes. I feel like as long as I mix up the timing and space my attack well, I should be winning most of the time. But I've heard mang0 say Falco shouldn't approach fox, and I've heard others say that sometimes it's best to just sit back, laser, and wait for them to approach.

I have a really hard time doing this. Maybe I just have bad reactions or just don't know what to do to counter different approaches from my opponent, but to me it seems like the person being approached is at the disadvantage. Also some characters like falcon and fox are so fast that I just get hit unexpectedly while trying to shoot a laser before it even comes out, even when I think I'm at a safe distance. I'd like to hear some thoughts on how to effectively let your opponents approach you. I'm sure this is also matchup dependent, so what matchups is this strategy best in? And what matchups should Falco be the aggressor?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, if you want to play defense, you may need to be farther back if you're getting hit out of your lasers. Either that or you need to mix lasers with Bair/Utilt more(an easy way to do this is SH backward and either reverse laser or Bair or land and do Utilt/nothing, etc). You also likely have ways to go in using lasers like confirming if one hits and then attacking or moving then attacking. With defense, you want to laser or move and then see if they're attacking instead, while setting up counters to possible attacks. So if you laser then turn around you cover them going over the laser since you're preparing Utilt/Bair immediately. Sitting under a platform is also pretty strong as Falco in many matchups/stages because it cuts off aerial approaches where lasers obviously don't affect anyone.

I don't have a personal opinion on what matchups it's better to play defensively in. I think Falco can go in on any character and be roughly even with them at worst so that's good enough for me.

 

[Diagonal_Smash]

Hey PPMD. Which do you think is more important in melee: thorough situational or psychological understanding? Is it more important to understand most situations well, or to be able to anticipate what your opponent will do based on their previous patterns/tendencies/feelings and what not. Do you think good psychological understanding is a skill developed separately, or does it tend to build in a player along with their situational awareness?