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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
If a Peach sees you always buffering roll, they could just Fair and then chase your roll with DA. This is when you can get more hold shield or even Dair/FH OOS counterplay, among other mixups such as delayed roll or other timing differences. FC Fair into jabs does beat roll iirc but I'm not sure about spotdodge. Jabs give a good positional advantage that is especially worse on smaller stages/when closer to the corner(though better than getting outright grabbed, at least usually). Dsmash you can shield and I think some have said you can WD OOS shine this even after FC Fair(from full shield mainly) but I couldn't do it consistently.
wavedash forward oos after peach downsmash hard af lol.
 

Mr_towel_Man

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
109
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FD blows
nah he just generally gets frustrated. the taunt probably didn't help though lol
Hey so in my regional area the best player is an ice climbers main and I'm so close to beating him but I was wondering if you had any general tips on Falco Vs IC?

What are the best stages against them and is there any good laser techniques that I should be using?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hey so in my regional area the best player is an ice climbers main and I'm so close to beating him but I was wondering if you had any general tips on Falco Vs IC?

What are the best stages against them and is there any good laser techniques that I should be using?
- Be aware when it's worth it to attack Nana instead of Popo. If Nana is at KO % and you're at 0%, it's usually worth killing her if Popo is only going to get a single uair on you. What you don't want to fall into the habit of doing is trying to combo Nana and frequently getting hit out of your combo by Popo. Whenever I break up the climbers, I try to prioritize attacking Popo, and if Popo was the only one that got sent flying or launched by a shine, I will take that opportunity to kill Nana.

- Lasers are good at controlling their ground movement, but I think shooting consecutive lasers can be risky because they are able to WD forward between them and fsmash/dsmash. Even if Popo gets hit by a laser while moving forward, Nana will still attack. This can happen during WD approaches as well as when they dash attack.

- SHing forward and DJing (especially with a platform nearby) is a good way to test the waters in neutral. It allows you to see how they respond to approaches and can give you opportunities to attack. They may try to grab if you jumped from far away and it looks like you'll land in front of them. If you jumped from a closer distance they may shield and do a bad shield grab, but better IC players will tend to WD back to escape your SHFFL range. If they jab or fsmash, then that's a sign they like to use hitboxes to defend themselves as opposed to movement, and you can DD to bait those out and whiff punish.

- Don't overuse plats. Being on platforms is nice because there's no real risk of being wobbled, but their uair is amazing for pressuring side plats and it easily beats Falco dair directly. Stay on the plats only until you can find a safe way back to the ground where you can cut off their movement.

- Recovering high should be your default vs. ICs. They can desync to cover a wide variety of ledge recoveries, but they struggle to jump up high and their bair is hard to hit with. Often they will land a uair on you if you recover onto the side plat, but it won't lead to KOs.

- Don't give up unnecessary damage to Sopo. Falco can laser Sopo much more to control his WDing because he doesn't have Nana attacking with him. Most Sopos rely a ton on getting gimmicky WD dsmashes that shouldn't work if you're zoning properly. Laser, utilt, and spaced bair/dair are ridiculously good for zoning, and you can also space dtilt on shield to KO since they don't have a fast enough fair to punish it. If you end up on plats, they're almost always going to uair so make sure you are angling your shield down or light shielding to avoid them tacking on damage or potentially getting a knockdown scenario.

- Stages: I think there's a lot of preference and dependency on how the IC plays. In general though, this is my order of preference:
1. BF/DL (high top plat and room to move around)
2. YS (less room but you still have a top plat, and you can shine up-B Nana off the top)
3. PS/FD (lack of top plat and low/nonexistent side plats hurt your movement and buff their punish, but it's harder for them to get down, and transformations on PS can sometimes cause problems for them)
4. FoD (small size and low/nonexistent side plats makes it hard to avoid them; lasers aren't always feasible because of low side plats; top plat isn't very high and the high ceiling prevents YS-esque gimps)
 

Mr_towel_Man

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- Be aware when it's worth it to attack Nana instead of Popo. If Nana is at KO % and you're at 0%, it's usually worth killing her if Popo is only going to get a single uair on you. What you don't want to fall into the habit of doing is trying to combo Nana and frequently getting hit out of your combo by Popo. Whenever I break up the climbers, I try to prioritize attacking Popo, and if Popo was the only one that got sent flying or launched by a shine, I will take that opportunity to kill Nana.

- Lasers are good at controlling their ground movement, but I think shooting consecutive lasers can be risky because they are able to WD forward between them and fsmash/dsmash. Even if Popo gets hit by a laser while moving forward, Nana will still attack. This can happen during WD approaches as well as when they dash attack.

- SHing forward and DJing (especially with a platform nearby) is a good way to test the waters in neutral. It allows you to see how they respond to approaches and can give you opportunities to attack. They may try to grab if you jumped from far away and it looks like you'll land in front of them. If you jumped from a closer distance they may shield and do a bad shield grab, but better IC players will tend to WD back to escape your SHFFL range. If they jab or fsmash, then that's a sign they like to use hitboxes to defend themselves as opposed to movement, and you can DD to bait those out and whiff punish.

- Don't overuse plats. Being on platforms is nice because there's no real risk of being wobbled, but their uair is amazing for pressuring side plats and it easily beats Falco dair directly. Stay on the plats only until you can find a safe way back to the ground where you can cut off their movement.

- Recovering high should be your default vs. ICs. They can desync to cover a wide variety of ledge recoveries, but they struggle to jump up high and their bair is hard to hit with. Often they will land a uair on you if you recover onto the side plat, but it won't lead to KOs.

- Don't give up unnecessary damage to Sopo. Falco can laser Sopo much more to control his WDing because he doesn't have Nana attacking with him. Most Sopos rely a ton on getting gimmicky WD dsmashes that shouldn't work if you're zoning properly. Laser, utilt, and spaced bair/dair are ridiculously good for zoning, and you can also space dtilt on shield to KO since they don't have a fast enough fair to punish it. If you end up on plats, they're almost always going to uair so make sure you are angling your shield down or light shielding to avoid them tacking on damage or potentially getting a knockdown scenario.

- Stages: I think there's a lot of preference and dependency on how the IC plays. In general though, this is my order of preference:
1. BF/DL (high top plat and room to move around)
2. YS (less room but you still have a top plat, and you can shine up-B Nana off the top)
3. PS/FD (lack of top plat and low/nonexistent side plats hurt your movement and buff their punish, but it's harder for them to get down, and transformations on PS can sometimes cause problems for them)
4. FoD (small size and low/nonexistent side plats makes it hard to avoid them; lasers aren't always feasible because of low side plats; top plat isn't very high and the high ceiling prevents YS-esque gimps)
Thanks Bones! Good work!
 
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LeProJay

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Mar 14, 2018
Messages
2
Hi everyone, this weekend i'm going to my first bigger tournament outside of locals. I've seen that there is a yoshi player in my pool, so i wanted to ask people who have experience in that matchup what i have to look out for and what my gameplan should be (slower pace and laser heavy or more agressive) i'm just looking for some general guidelines (but if someone is willing to share all of his secret's against yoshi i'd be really happy). I've started to play against yoshi on 20XX just to see what combos i can pull off before he can use his DJ armor, but that only get's you so far.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Hi everyone, this weekend i'm going to my first bigger tournament outside of locals. I've seen that there is a yoshi player in my pool, so i wanted to ask people who have experience in that matchup what i have to look out for and what my gameplan should be (slower pace and laser heavy or more agressive) i'm just looking for some general guidelines (but if someone is willing to share all of his secret's against yoshi i'd be really happy). I've started to play against yoshi on 20XX just to see what combos i can pull off before he can use his DJ armor, but that only get's you so far.
If they can parry, you have to be unpredictable with your aerial timings. Doing standard SHFFLs will get parried, but you can FF empty land shine, no FF and do your aerial as late as possible, DJ after SHing towards them, and laser shine (though if they PS the laser you may get punished). Empty land shine in particular is something I find very strong and if you're FFing asap there isn't much they can do one they've let you SH towards them. Be aware if they start zoning to prevent these jump-ins however, since his ftilt is quite good at beating or at least trading with predictable approaches.

Most Yoshi players rely heavily on approaching with DJC to get over lasers. You can antiair DJC approaches very easily with utilt/AC bair, but if they are facing you, you can't be predictable because they will be looking to whiff punish utilts with fair, not unlike how Falcons use stomp. This is also a common habit out of combos. If you can't get a true followup, such as from uthrow, then it's not a bad idea to anticipate a DJC aerial and intercept it with a utilt/AC bair.

Yoshi's shield has limited options, but I think most people underestimate how decent his options are. Yoshi doesn't have shield stun so he can roll away very quickly, even if you do something like a late bair which normally is good at keeping opponents locked down. Chasing rolls with dair is effective, but if you are slow you can expect them to jab/ftilt/dtilt. They might also just shield release and use those moves if you aren't threatening him. Waveshining on its own can be decent pressure, especially if the Yoshi is good at doing roll into parry which is a big go-to for those competent with it.

Yoshi's shield on platforms is even better than on the ground. His light shield causes him to slide ridiculously fast and far, so if he's in a bad position and has demonstrated a willingness to use this tactic, you're often better off just waiting him out and punishing what he does from that position. This can include utilting underneath him to catch him shield dropping into you, or waiting for him to roll and jump shining it on reaction.

If you are in front of him, his GUA is unreactable. This is unfortunate, but at the same time, it means Yoshi players rely on it a lot. If they miss tech and you aren't in position to immediately attack, it's not a bad option to run up and shield. You can dair stand/GUA on reaction, and if he MTRs left or right, you won't be able to get a true punish, but you can SHL out of shield in that direction and keep him trapped on the ground.

The biggest factor in whether you will win or not is usually how good your defense is. Yoshi players are used to getting mileage out of scenarios due to unfamiliarity with armor. If you overextend on your combo, he will reversal you and he hits way harder than you do. He also lives longer and KOs you sooner. When Yoshi is recovering you can jump out to shine spike him below the ledge (shine breaks armor at 0%). Fsmash breaks armor at 39% and bair breaks it at 75%. Other than those 3 moves, you really have no business edgeguarding him because he will armor through you and kick you off stage yourself. Depending on how comfortable you are in the mu, you can actually attack his DJ armor at lower percents as long as you are moving away from him. A retreating AC bair that doesn't break his armor can still net you some safe damage if his DJ won't land close enough to punish you. You can also doing rising FH aerials that he will be unable to punish as long as you are out of range of his uair immediately after hitting him.

When you're recovering, be aware that he can immediately DJ to hog the edge, and also take care to avoid dtilt and dash attack. Those moves will also catch you if you try to LHDL, firestall, or DJ regrab the ledge, so don't play around there. Ledgedash and WL onto side plat are both solid as usual. On stage, it's crucial for you to land your techs (you generally want to TR away), but if you do miss a tech and get jab reset, you can use C-stick down+DI away to ground TR his DJC uair, which is his go-to launcher from jab resets.
 
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LeProJay

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
2
If they can parry, you have to be unpredictable with your aerial timings. Doing standard SHFFLs will get parried, but you can FF empty land shine, no FF and do your aerial as late as possible, DJ after SHing towards them, and laser shine (though if they PS the laser you may get punished). Empty land shine in particular is something I find very strong and if you're FFing asap there isn't much they can do one they've let you SH towards them. Be aware if they start zoning to prevent these jump-ins however, since his ftilt is quite good at beating or at least trading with predictable approaches.

Most Yoshi players rely heavily on approaching with DJC to get over lasers. You can antiair DJC approaches very easily with utilt/AC bair, but if they are facing you, you can't be predictable because they will be looking to whiff punish utilts with fair, not unlike how Falcons use stomp. This is also a common habit out of combos. If you can't get a true followup, such as from uthrow, then it's not a bad idea to anticipate a DJC aerial and intercept it with a utilt/AC bair.

Yoshi's shield has limited options, but I think most people underestimate how decent his options are. Yoshi doesn't have shield stun so he can roll away very quickly, even if you do something like a late bair which normally is good at keeping opponents locked down. Chasing rolls with dair is effective, but if you are slow you can expect them to jab/ftilt/dtilt. They might also just shield release and use those moves if you aren't threatening him. Waveshining on its own can be decent pressure, especially if the Yoshi is good at doing roll into parry which is a big go-to for those competent with it.

Yoshi's shield on platforms is even better than on the ground. His light shield causes him to slide ridiculously fast and far, so if he's in a bad position and has demonstrated a willingness to use this tactic, you're often better off just waiting him out and punishing what he does from that position. This can include utilting underneath him to catch him shield dropping into you, or waiting for him to roll and jump shining it on reaction.

If you are in front of him, his GUA is unreactable. This is unfortunate, but at the same time, it means Yoshi players rely on it a lot. If they miss tech and you aren't in position to immediately attack, it's not a bad option to run up and shield. You can dair stand/GUA on reaction, and if he MTRs left or right, you won't be able to get a true punish, but you can SHL out of shield in that direction and keep him trapped on the ground.

The biggest factor in whether you will win or not is usually how good your defense is. Yoshi players are used to getting mileage out of scenarios due to unfamiliarity with armor. If you overextend on your combo, he will reversal you and he hits way harder than you do. He also lives longer and KOs you sooner. When Yoshi is recovering you can jump out to shine spike him below the ledge (shine breaks armor at 0%). Fsmash breaks armor at 39% and bair breaks it at 75%. Other than those 3 moves, you really have no business edgeguarding him because he will armor through you and kick you off stage yourself. Depending on how comfortable you are in the mu, you can actually attack his DJ armor at lower percents as long as you are moving away from him. A retreating AC bair that doesn't break his armor can still net you some safe damage if his DJ won't land close enough to punish you. You can also doing rising FH aerials that he will be unable to punish as long as you are out of range of his uair immediately after hitting him.

When you're recovering, be aware that he can immediately DJ to hog the edge, and also take care to avoid dtilt and dash attack. Those moves will also catch you if you try to LHDL, firestall, or DJ regrab the ledge, so don't play around there. Ledgedash and WL onto side plat are both solid as usual. On stage, it's crucial for you to land your techs (you generally want to TR away), but if you do miss a tech and get jab reset, you can use C-stick down+DI away to ground TR his DJC uair, which is his go-to launcher from jab resets.
Thank you so much bones, I hope I'll make it out of pools whit all that information you gave me :)
 

Bones0

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Jarrettsville, MD
Scenario said:
Anyone have any thoughts on which of these positions is better? I have pretty much always preferred controlling bottom mid (red Falco), but I increasingly find it much safer to control center stage from above. These are the possibilities I see for each Falco from these positions. This is particularly true for Peach and Luigi because they have limited vertical mobility and don't have particularly dangerous upward moves (unlike Marth or Puff for example). For this discussion, however, I'm focused on Sheik who is more mobile, but is also notorious for camping under side plats because of her solid WD back/needle/platforming game.


Red Falco:
- He can limit Sheik's ground movement with lasers. If things go well, he may get an aerial or grab, but if Sheik is able to sneak between his lasers with a run up (power)shield, grab, or DA, he could get reversaled.

- Dropping into Falco's position from the side or top plat can be dangerous. Sheik can attack the drop down directly or attempt to whiff punish Falco coming down with an aerial by grabbing. If Falco lasers to protect against this kind of whiff punish, then he's at risk of being attacked preemptively or needled for ~17%.

- Sheik can challenge Falco's current position with FH needles, which also puts her on the side plat, a generally good position for her because of dropzone fair and shield drop options to prevent shield pressure.

- Sheik can WL onto the side plat without needles to set up her runoff/shield drop fair threat even faster, and Falco doesn't have a good way to challenge her. (Or does he?) He can aerial to catch WLs off the plat, but this loses to WL in place. He can aim for Sheik's WL in place spacing, but he can't get there before she shields, and it loses extra hard if Sheik decides to WL forward and take center stage (possibly even bairing behind her to catch Falco moving past).


Blue Falco:
- He cannot limit Sheik's ground movement with lasers, but he can WD off/shield drop/drop down with shine or aerials to prevent her from moving forward similar to if he started on the ground. For example, Red can space a SH bair to beat Sheik moving forward, but Blue can shield drop down with a bair and get a low bair out even faster.

- He can WD off or SHFFL an aerial onto the side plat if Sheik WLs up there, or he can even do it preemptively to control the side plat, then use that position to control space with shield drop/runoff aerials. He can also quickly retreat back to the top plat with the SH dair aerial interrupt. Falco's WD off is incredibly flexible since he can dip down and go for a shine, then immediately DJ away back to safety on the top plat. He can also feint landing on the ground and DJ onto the side plat, forcing Sheik to deal with an unreactable movement that looks exactly the same as a retreat.

- He can attack Sheik under the side plat with WD off bair or SH, drop through the side plat, aerial. The latter is countered by Sheik WDing back and the former is kinda slow and gives Sheik too much access to center stage (you're no longer threatening an aerial in that region). I don't really like coming down off the top plat because the risk reward of getting grabbed in the corner or giving up bottom mid is pretty bad, but the threat of these attacks is still very real. It seems like Sheik players usually stay in the corner and just wait for Falco to come down, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

- Sheik can't really attack Falco on the top plat. Outside of calling out his movement in a specific direction at the right time, Sheik's ability to reach the top plat isn't amazing. FH WL fair is pretty quick, but it's slow enough that Falco could move or at least shield in time. More importantly, below KO %s this kind of attack won't lead to anything, and even if Falco is forced to shield or retreat, that just means he can easily shield drop or run off the plat and take control of bottom mid while Sheik is on the top plat.


tl;dr - I wanna camp top plat 'cause fighting Sheik on her terms is lame. Legit or no?
 
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Dr Peepee

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I'm going to assume you're only talking about YS.

I think the top platform vs Sheik isn't great to spam due to her Bair which is likely to beat whatever you do and be safe, but obviously you technically can counter this. That said, top platform is good for Falco to abuse intelligently in general. You can also SH or drop from platform to shine and can retreat or DJ WL down(or down back)/onto side platform for safety or for a varied approach.

It seems to me your main worry is Sheik on the side platform when on the ground, which is justifiable to me. It's a really wonky position that definitely needs to be explored more. I don't perfectly know all of the shield drop nuances, but I think on YS in particular your fadeaway AC Bair is really useful to keep her from coming forward while also threatening her shield directly. You have other options though like moving forward to do some shine DJ vs shine waveland down or to set up a fadeaway aerial/pivot retreating Bair. From this forward threat, Sheik could shield drop punish on reaction to dash in or just WD OOS over you. You can either pivot earlier than you normally would to set up Bair to beat/pressure either, or you can laser to catch her shield dropping through. That type of mixup has felt fairly strong to me in practice.

You can't really avoid going high sometimes, but I personally don't want to do it too much vs Sheik since her dash/run Uair is pretty strong and not a trade I often want and wouldn't want to condition her to start expecting to do it a lot vs me. I may be overstating that worry some, but when you die from that sort of thing it's hard to forget lol.
 

DogLifeGood

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
Hey again! I've been trying to figure out the Yoshi - Falco MU recently and I have a couple of questions.

First off what is the proper way to use lasers in the MU? Right now I find myself firing lasers to keep yoshi in place and not approach but that doesn't seem to lead to an opening. All that happens is yoshi will ps it, DJ armor through it and continue approaching, or CC it and ready himself for an approach that he can parry. I find Yoshi rarely is actually threatened by laser approach for I feel like Yoshi doesn't often shield / roll due to laser. I find lazer is best for punishing a whiffed aerial. Am i underestimating laser? Or is what I said essentially true and I need to rely less on laser in the neutral as apposed to other MUs?

Another situation that bothers me is when Yoshi is shielding on platform. I feel like I see Yoshi usually win that situation if the Yoshi is patient enough and has solid shield drops. I feel like in these trying times I should just take center stage and anticipate a shield drop I can punish or drop shield -> FH aerial that I can whiff punish or Utilt. Am I respecting Yoshi too much here?

Finally I want to know which playstyle you think is most effective against Yoshi. I've noticed a lot of Falco's play more grounded against Yoshi where they use clever DD mix ups to punish low DJ canceled aerials and whiff punish FH aerials via dash back laser or dash back -> dash in aerial. However I've been watching a lot of Yu vs aMSa and it seems like Yu uses a lot of FH DJ Daris to punish Yoshi for FH's or movement to catch him. It seems like he plays the matchup more vertically when he can; if that makes sense. I feel like Yu's way of playing makes a lot of sense however whenever I try to simulate it I find Yoshi's FH bair and Uair are really good tools for punishing Falco for going high. Ideally I think knowing how to play it both way is most beneficial but I want to know what you think.

I hope the points I'm trying to make get across I feel like my wording is a little jumbled. Thanks!
 

Bones0

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I'm going to assume you're only talking about YS.

I think the top platform vs Sheik isn't great to spam due to her Bair which is likely to beat whatever you do and be safe, but obviously you technically can counter this. That said, top platform is good for Falco to abuse intelligently in general. You can also SH or drop from platform to shine and can retreat or DJ WL down(or down back)/onto side platform for safety or for a varied approach.

It seems to me your main worry is Sheik on the side platform when on the ground, which is justifiable to me. It's a really wonky position that definitely needs to be explored more. I don't perfectly know all of the shield drop nuances, but I think on YS in particular your fadeaway AC Bair is really useful to keep her from coming forward while also threatening her shield directly. You have other options though like moving forward to do some shine DJ vs shine waveland down or to set up a fadeaway aerial/pivot retreating Bair. From this forward threat, Sheik could shield drop punish on reaction to dash in or just WD OOS over you. You can either pivot earlier than you normally would to set up Bair to beat/pressure either, or you can laser to catch her shield dropping through. That type of mixup has felt fairly strong to me in practice.

You can't really avoid going high sometimes, but I personally don't want to do it too much vs Sheik since her dash/run Uair is pretty strong and not a trade I often want and wouldn't want to condition her to start expecting to do it a lot vs me. I may be overstating that worry some, but when you die from that sort of thing it's hard to forget lol.
Yes, I was talking specifically about YS since the top plat is so low, though a lot of this applies to FoD sometimes as well. Maybe I am underestimating how hard it is to deal with Sheik if she's able to get under me, but Sheiks generally just camp the corner vs. me so it's hard for me to say from experience.

Sheik jumping onto the side plat is definitely a big reason I think the top plat is useful. I can AC bair preemptively to catch shield drop attempts, but then I also feel like this gets countered by a WD forward fair, or at the very least, it puts me right in her needle range so I have to give up center to respect that. She seems to be able to play very reactionary from plats because of how quick shield drop and WD off fair are. The biggest limitation to her AC fair on the ground is her high SH, but the plat removes that factor. The idea of using a high laser to cover shield drops sounds pretty interesting and isn't something I've really considered. I have lots of things to think about and keep an eye out for in vods, so thanks for your input.


Dr Peepee Dr Peepee
Hey again! I've been trying to figure out the Yoshi - Falco MU recently and I have a couple of questions.

First off what is the proper way to use lasers in the MU? Right now I find myself firing lasers to keep yoshi in place and not approach but that doesn't seem to lead to an opening. All that happens is yoshi will ps it, DJ armor through it and continue approaching, or CC it and ready himself for an approach that he can parry. I find Yoshi rarely is actually threatened by laser approach for I feel like Yoshi doesn't often shield / roll due to laser. I find lazer is best for punishing a whiffed aerial. Am i underestimating laser? Or is what I said essentially true and I need to rely less on laser in the neutral as apposed to other MUs?

Another situation that bothers me is when Yoshi is shielding on platform. I feel like I see Yoshi usually win that situation if the Yoshi is patient enough and has solid shield drops. I feel like in these trying times I should just take center stage and anticipate a shield drop I can punish or drop shield -> FH aerial that I can whiff punish or Utilt. Am I respecting Yoshi too much here?

Finally I want to know which playstyle you think is most effective against Yoshi. I've noticed a lot of Falco's play more grounded against Yoshi where they use clever DD mix ups to punish low DJ canceled aerials and whiff punish FH aerials via dash back laser or dash back -> dash in aerial. However I've been watching a lot of Yu vs aMSa and it seems like Yu uses a lot of FH DJ Daris to punish Yoshi for FH's or movement to catch him. It seems like he plays the matchup more vertically when he can; if that makes sense. I feel like Yu's way of playing makes a lot of sense however whenever I try to simulate it I find Yoshi's FH bair and Uair are really good tools for punishing Falco for going high. Ideally I think knowing how to play it both way is most beneficial but I want to know what you think.

I hope the points I'm trying to make get across I feel like my wording is a little jumbled. Thanks!
Just in case you missed it, I made a pretty good starter post on the Yoshi matchup a few posts back (on this same page if you're using 50 posts per page).
 
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DogLifeGood

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Just in case you missed it, I made a pretty good starter post on the Yoshi matchup a few posts back (on this same page if you're using 50 posts per page).
Wow I am blind as a bat... heck!
Really good write up though that had a ton of useful info thanks!

Can you clarify what the abreviations GUA and MTR stand for?

If the answer lies on this same page i swear imma
 

Yort

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Aug 27, 2014
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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee

Hello! I have more questions.

Can you define counter attack?
Can you define what exactly a position is? For example, is shiek being in the middle of the right platform on yoshis while I am center stage a position? Would me being at a long range be a different position? When looking for more positional understanding do you think it is a good thing to go very in depth or should I keep looking for different positions? I keep finding myself spending 30 minutes to 1 hour on one position and all the possible options which I think is beneficial but I want to be better with using my time as there are many positions to learn lmao.

Can you explain how a "position" differs from a "situation" or are these interchangeable? I feel like they are different but I can't put my finger on the difference.


Can you explain what having a timing advantage is?
I’ve been looking at timing as an independent factor in analysis now as you suggested and I’m still a bit confused as to what to look for.

How does one get a timing advantage and how does one abuse it?


How do I get better at timing my retreating ac bair to beat approaches / counterattack? Do I react to spacing / their stimulus / recognize situation? I find myself doing retreating AC bair to beat approaches at completely unreasonable times, where i’m throwing away an advantage / putting myself in a disadvantage when I don’t need to at all.

https://youtu.be/jBvdnCfI2_M?t=14

In this example, you seem to react to his dash forward and also because you just landed from a jump you could assume he might want to attack because of your landing lag, do you think this makes sense? What do you think you might have done if he was about 1 more dash distance away instead of this close but you register that he was dashing forward? Maybe an approaching nair to hit him running forward or a laser if you could at that range?
Do you have a timing advantage here or does he because of the positional / frame advantage? I don’t really understand how it plays into space / position and all that junk yet.


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/239751993?t=09h20m09s

In this clip I did a bair, after the first bair, that I think was completely inappropriate
Assuming I was at a timing advantage because he was in lag having to fall after my first bair, I don’t think I had any reason to be scared of an attack. How can I get better at recognizing situations like this when i’m at risk of an attack versus when i’m not?


b

Could you elaborate more on the difference between defensive and patient players please?

What strategy would a defensive impatient falco player use vs puff?

What strategy would a defensive patient falco player use vs puff?

What strategy would an aggressive patient falco player use vs puff?

What strategy would an aggressive proactive falco player use vs puff?

What strategy would an aggressive proactive patient falco player use vs puff? (you haha)

What strategy would an aggressive reactive falco player use vs puff?


Just looking for general stuff / scenarios to kind of understand.

I also don’t really get how to classify players as proactive vs reactive well enough, I end up classifying almost everyone as proactive. I think I struggle with overlaps between the categories which is good to think about in its own right but it’s frustrating not being able to understand whether players are being proactive or not.

Are proactive players less likely to react to specific stimuli than a reactive player? Would a reactive fox for example be more likely to full hop only when he sees you dash sh forwards and expects a laser, versus a proactive player who might make more predictions?


c)


What are some ideas for beating players who wavedash forward after taking laser at a mid range?


I notice this usually happens when their initial intention is to powershield, they don’t react to getting ps but just preemptively wd forward which I then usually stuff with laser in place or slight approaching dair / dair in place depending on range.


I notice when I do dash dances and they do this wd forward oos I often get pressured hard / hit, and I think at least versus the players who are main threats to me in my state this seems to be a pretty meta thing, players who constantly run forward when i’m threatening laser and then wd forward oos if they get powershield or not.


What do you think about using 2x laser in place to beat wd forward / dash forward instantly after taking laser?


What about laser dair / nair?

Is their anything else you think about this “meta thing”


I find myself getting a ton of mileage out of varying my laser timings a lot and just dairing people who wavedash forward and it’s usually pretty clear with the amount of people who run forward attempt to ps > wd forward punish, at least against players in my state. It honestly makes me feel kind of lazy because I want to get better at 1 - 2 dash dance observe set ups after laser because it’s fun but against these players I get a lot of mileage out of just laser dair. It also depends on character of course, I guess i’m mainly talking about marth shiek and fox, I haven’t really looked too in depth at how the meta for powershielding is for other characters.


What is the nair timing you mentioned earlier that might hit jump oos and be safe?
Is it what we call the sami nair down here? IE about a frame 10-12 nair which you buffer the fast fall so the ff comes out before the nair, or are you talking about a specific timing you put the nair out which you fast fall after hit lag which is still safe to grab oos?

Druggedfox told me the earliest nair you can do which you fast fall after the lag for is frame 7, which is still pretty early and should hit jumps, I’m trying to figure out if you are talking about this nair or the “sami nair”.


One rule i’ve noticed that seems prominent is that if I am cornered and the opponent is center stage it seems more likely that i’m going to get walled out by things such as shieks fh bair / marths ftilt / nair rather than them moving back.

I find this rule is especially prominent when I am at high percent and they just want to hit me off and wall me out.


What do you think of this rule? I will post some examples later.


Also, let’s I am cornered at 90% by a marth who is just outside of his ftilt range and I land a laser on him. How do I deal with marths who do this ftilt / fsmash right after taking laser here? Dash dancing just seems to leave me more pressured. I can full hop above him and attempt to get back down which is good I think, but what do you think about lasering twice in place and trying to force him off balance?

Sorry if these questions are too much, answer whatever you would like and ignore whatever you think is not useful. I plan on asking with more specifics later to explain the rules / stuff I am talking about here, I have been writing a lot in my notes but not asking many questions so I have a bunch of ideas in my head at the moment which I would like some guidance for as per usual. Thank you!!!!
 

Dr Peepee

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A counterattack is attacking second with the express intent of beating an opponent's attack. So you could attack second but not aim to counterattack and it would be in a fuzzy area since I think the intent is important. Basically it's when you hit an opponent for attacking, though you could also maybe argue it's hitting an opponent out of an aggressive intent.

A position is literally anything that could even be kind of considered neutral. We usually only think of around TR or kind of close to be positions, but people on the edge or in a juggle state or in a dropped combo state etc etc can all be positions. Going in depth for the most common/useful positions is best, but really you want to learn as many as possible. Starting with the most common/useful will give you the best foundation and you can expand that to the rest of the positions.

I tend to think of positions are more purely neutral things, whereas I might think a situation includes positions but also with preconditions like if I dropped a combo but they're still at disadvantage near me. They're pretty interchangeable to me.

A timing advantage is more or less about attacking appropriately to beat their intent or move(s). You can have a great position, but if you have predictable timing it won't matter. Therefore, waiting different lengths of time or using different tempos can give your positions more depth. If you find yourself AC Bair'ing at the wrong time, ask yourself what you were responding to, or what rhythm you were on. Find a way to adjust it. For me, this often means building small waits into my game for observation and/or beating something that takes a little bit to get to me.

Yeah that's right about my Bair. If he was farther I might have hit him first like you said, but just as likely lasered in place or backing up slightly to counter approaches and assert my new position, as well as seeing what he did so I could know for next time. Note my timing would have been bad if I instantly Baired, but because I dashed a little first that gave him time to get closer so I could beat his Nair as he did it.

First, it helps to basically jot out where your real openings in your tools are. Next you want to look at where the practical openings are. The difference is you KNOW there is an opening after your first Bair or Utilt or laser etc, but practically your opponent might not be prepared to punish, or the distance is too wide. You need to see what actually happens and start accepting things as they practically are, and not just only a theoretical feeling. This leads into my next point which I should've made a while ago.

Okay so I'm gonna skip a lot of your questions in favor of recommending this: work on a very very very simple gameplan. I'm talking about doing things like laser Nair vs laser dash back Nair in. No extra dashing, no worrying about timing(because this mixup takes care of that for you), just focus on the mixup game. This gets you thinking more concretely about your options and how they work together, and it'll also help you adapt so you don't have to wonder about why something did or didn't work. You can practice this right now and it shouldn't add too much time to your practice regimen. If you do this well, you will find stuff that works in various matchups pretty quickly. Once you have that type of foundation down, then you can worry about adding more complexity in. Right now I think we have gone far away from practical things in favor of stuff that you should think about only after having a basic mixup game down. So just like I still want you focusing on individual tools, I want you to just focus on basic mixups here too. That was why I brought up intention theory before and it will still help now I imagine, but if it makes things confusing then don't worry about that either. Just do mixups that make sense to you and that work.

Yeah I was talking about the "Sami Nair" though Cactus told me about it before Sami ever mentioned it lol.

In that Marth situation, you can laser then wait then attack, or laser then dash back then attack/laser in. You can also FH over like you said, or FH WL on side platform to prep fall down laser or attack or whatever you want.
 
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Bones0

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@ Yort and PP's discussion:
Not sure how related this is or how helpful it will be, but I used to ask a lot of the same sorts of questions. There were always a lot of specifics I wanted to nail down, and I think with common scenarios this is still really nice because you know exactly what to do and can identify the situation immediately. However, for neutral, things are always going to be ambiguous. I think trying to find the answer to a specific combination of timing and spacing is way too difficult, and applying the correct answer in game is downright impossible because your brain cannot possibly track down the exact right answer.

The way I think of things now is I'd like to have a more broad understanding of the principles of neutral, and then I can apply those principles in any situation, no matter how specific or ambiguous it is in the moment. As a super basic example, I don't need to know that when an opposing Fox is 5 feet away and at a 3 frame advantage that I should dash back AC bair. All I need to do is understand the principles that are relevant to the situation:
- Fox players like to approach when they have frame advantage (calibrating this expectation for your specific opponent is adaptation).
- AC bair beats approaches.

Therefore, I should AC bair. I don't need to worry about the exact timing and spacing when I decide to do the AC bair. If they are at a timing and spacing where I would expect an approach, I know AC bair will beat it. I feel that this expectation may start as a conscious observation (studying vods, you may notice "Foxes always nair in these kinds of situations"), but it should quickly become unconscious. If you think about a specific mixup you are confident in (for me a good one is baiting and whiff punishing Marth rising fair OoS), then you will understand that you don't think about it, you are acting instinctively.

In the past I have done a pretty poor job of identifying mixups, and have instead opted for more 20xx-style gameplay where I spam high EV options and abuse low risk high reward setups. A good example is TIP shine immediate dair, something I stole from Westballz and have gotten tons of mileage from. The problem is I wasn't doing this based on anything my opponent was doing, it just worked a lot so I used it a lot. Ofc, when I run into someone who doesn't fall for, I can identify I should stop doing it, but now I don't know my other options because I never really explored the mixup, I just picked a single good option. This leads to panic shielding and dodging, which top players abuse to the max.

When you start looking at all the options in the mixup scenario, it suddenly becomes way easier to identify what style your opponent uses. I haven't played since my understanding changed in this way, but just by watching vods I'm noticing really basic patterns I never did before. I start seeing things like "oh, this Fox is really passive", but I didn't make that observation all at once. It was a result of me noticing the Fox opting for a defensive/retreating option in 8/10 different mixup scenarios. Players deal with every mixup differently, but it seems like it's generally the same mindset behind the decision. As another example, you may notice that the opponent is extremely aggressive or extremely defensive in their mixups. This indicates a very black and white decision making pattern, and understanding that pattern clues you in to what mixup options to expect in the future. If this opponent is in an entirely new mixup, even if I have no previous data to pull from, I already have a decent way of narrowing down which options he is likely to use based on information from previous mixups.

Maybe PP can clarify how exactly he adapts to different mindsets, especially with his experience studying players before hand, but this is my current approach to vod analysis. I really spent a lot of time trying to simplify my analysis process because trying to figure out every situation was too exhaustive. Now I just try to focus on "what strategy was X trying to implement" and "what strategy was Y trying to implement".

A strategy can vary on scale though. A Falco may have an overarching strategy to control the ground with lasers and force the opponent to jump, but then within each interaction there are tactics which are effectively micro strats. When a Fox shields a laser, does he FH? Does he WD forward shine? This approach to analysis lets me see the big picture while simultaneously seeing how each individual mixup fits in with their style and overarching strategy. I feel like next time I play someone, I'll be much better suited to identify their macro strategy based on how the deal with mixups and also predict how they will deal with mixups based on their macro strategy.


Wow I am blind as a bat... heck!
Really good write up though that had a ton of useful info thanks!

Can you clarify what the abreviations GUA and MTR stand for?

If the answer lies on this same page i swear imma
GUA = get up attack (the attack you do after missing a tech)
MTR = missed tech roll (rolling left or right after a tech

I also use TIP for tech in place, but I think I'm the only one who actually uses these abbreviations anyway. lol It's a habit from my own analysis where half of the words/phrases I use are abbreviated for efficiency's sake.
 
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Dr Peepee

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@ Yort and PP's discussion:
Not sure how related this is or how helpful it will be, but I used to ask a lot of the same sorts of questions. There were always a lot of specifics I wanted to nail down, and I think with common scenarios this is still really nice because you know exactly what to do and can identify the situation immediately. However, for neutral, things are always going to be ambiguous. I think trying to find the answer to a specific combination of timing and spacing is way too difficult, and applying the correct answer in game is downright impossible because your brain cannot possibly track down the exact right answer.

The way I think of things now is I'd like to have a more broad understanding of the principles of neutral, and then I can apply those principles in any situation, no matter how specific or ambiguous it is in the moment. As a super basic example, I don't need to know that when an opposing Fox is 5 feet away and at a 3 frame advantage that I should dash back AC bair. All I need to do is understand the principles that are relevant to the situation:
- Fox players like to approach when they have frame advantage (calibrating this expectation for your specific opponent is adaptation).
- AC bair beats approaches.

Therefore, I should AC bair. I don't need to worry about the exact timing and spacing when I decide to do the AC bair. If they are at a timing and spacing where I would expect an approach, I know AC bair will beat it. I feel that this expectation may start as a conscious observation (studying vods, you may notice "Foxes always nair in these kinds of situations"), but it should quickly become unconscious. If you think about a specific mixup you are confident in (for me a good one is baiting and whiff punishing Marth rising fair OoS), then you will understand that you don't think about it, you are acting instinctively.

In the past I have done a pretty poor job of identifying mixups, and have instead opted for more 20xx-style gameplay where I spam high EV options and abuse low risk high reward setups. A good example is TIP shine immediate dair, something I stole from Westballz and have gotten tons of mileage from. The problem is I wasn't doing this based on anything my opponent was doing, it just worked a lot so I used it a lot. Ofc, when I run into someone who doesn't fall for, I can identify I should stop doing it, but now I don't know my other options because I never really explored the mixup, I just picked a single good option. This leads to panic shielding and dodging, which top players abuse to the max.

When you start looking at all the options in the mixup scenario, it suddenly becomes way easier to identify what style your opponent uses. I haven't played since my understanding changed in this way, but just by watching vods I'm noticing really basic patterns I never did before. I start seeing things like "oh, this Fox is really passive", but I didn't make that observation all at once. It was a result of me noticing the Fox opting for a defensive/retreating option in 8/10 different mixup scenarios. Players deal with every mixup differently, but it seems like it's generally the same mindset behind the decision. As another example, you may notice that the opponent is extremely aggressive or extremely defensive in their mixups. This indicates a very black and white decision making pattern, and understanding that pattern clues you in to what mixup options to expect in the future. If this opponent is in an entirely new mixup, even if I have no previous data to pull from, I already have a decent way of narrowing down which options he is likely to use based on information from previous mixups.

Maybe PP can clarify how exactly he adapts to different mindsets, especially with his experience studying players before hand, but this is my current approach to vod analysis. I really spent a lot of time trying to simplify my analysis process because trying to figure out every situation was too exhaustive. Now I just try to focus on "what strategy was X trying to implement" and "what strategy was Y trying to implement".

A strategy can vary on scale though. A Falco may have an overarching strategy to control the ground with lasers and force the opponent to jump, but then within each interaction there are tactics which are effectively micro strats. When a Fox shields a laser, does he FH? Does he WD forward shine? This approach to analysis lets me see the big picture while simultaneously seeing how each individual mixup fits in with their style and overarching strategy. I feel like next time I play someone, I'll be much better suited to identify their macro strategy based on how the deal with mixups and also predict how they will deal with mixups based on their macro strategy.
My way I approached things, and still do to an extent, is I figure out how to beat things that are common(or in the case of Marth vs Falco, should be common) and then go from there. Eventually the specifics coalesce together into rules that I can begin applying to other matchups or areas of the game, and also inform my understanding of my own character as well as others.

Now it's a bit different. I still want to continue to revisit situations that I feel confident in because I know the slightest change of positioning or timing or move choice(or some combo) can have great effects and it helps me explore and learn more. That aside, it would be fair to say I just look at what's common or what beats my current theory of what's "best" and to continue to round myself out. Of course I think it's equally important to maintain relaxation in matches and analysis and to find psychological weaknesses that manifest in the game, but these things may matter less to most players and the positional work is what I recommend most.

If I had to sum up how I approach things and what I'd recommend, it would be: positions and simplicity. Understanding a position, its nuances, and how to sensibly navigate toward a solution should be a no-brainer, but it's not common. Simplicity doesn't mean in my way per se, it just means that one doesn't waste inputs and doesn't overcomplicate(a problem more common today and especially in spacies who have access to more routes for neutral at least).

Not entirely sure if this is helpful, but it does seem to provide a good balance to what you said to me.
 

Yort

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Dr Peepee Dr Peepee Bones0 Bones0

I appreciate the push back to reality and the advice to focus on practical things. I find myself getting distracted by theoretical things that are above me often. Although this advice you have given can be frustrating, as I have been working on basic tools and simple mix ups after laser for about 4 months, I have not been working as comprehensively as I know I should be, and I often get distracted and switch my focus. I will take a few steps back again and try not to get distracted.

I would also like to keep asking questions here regularly, as I think the help I receive is invaluable, do you mind if I ask questions about the positions and basic tools and mix ups that I have been working on?
How do I avoid getting off topic and digging too far into things that aren't useful as of now?
How do you think new players over complicate things or "do too much"?

I would also like to ask about my own sets and recent games sparingly, but I haven't been sure of the best way to do this. I need to learn how to ask better questions :p.
 
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Dr Peepee

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Yeah I don't mind questions, that's why I'm here lol, but I just want them to get the most gain for people that's all. I think a big part of this is specifics. Many people ask "how do I play this whole matchup?" But when I ask what do they REALLY want to know, they want to know how to edgeguard, or how to play in the corner, and/or how to play FD. And sometimes, if I'm really lucky, they will ask about Sheik on a platform when you're at high percent but they're at low percent and they've shown a tendency to runoff Fair and you're in the middle of BF with them on the middle of the left platform. The more specific you are, the better I can answer.

New players overcomplicate technically by speeding past the essentials so they can play friendlies then stop being connected with the game and its tools. This leads to an overcomplication of ideas because they now are taking in much theoretical information online but with no good training or analysis framework because of their practice. It's related.
 

Yort

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Yeah I don't mind questions, that's why I'm here lol, but I just want them to get the most gain for people that's all. I think a big part of this is specifics. Many people ask "how do I play this whole matchup?" But when I ask what do they REALLY want to know, they want to know how to edgeguard, or how to play in the corner, and/or how to play FD. And sometimes, if I'm really lucky, they will ask about Sheik on a platform when you're at high percent but they're at low percent and they've shown a tendency to runoff Fair and you're in the middle of BF with them on the middle of the left platform. The more specific you are, the better I can answer.

New players overcomplicate technically by speeding past the essentials so they can play friendlies then stop being connected with the game and its tools. This leads to an overcomplication of ideas because they now are taking in much theoretical information online but with no good training or analysis framework because of their practice. It's related.
I try to ask specifics and often tell myself I will ask specifics but I often end up asking theoretical stuff for some reason. Maybe it is just easier and more fun to talk about theoretical things.

What I want to know is how to outright beat foxes full hop with falco, pressure his full hop landing, and beat the options afterwards which I consider 3 different parts to outplaying fox in neutral.

https://youtu.be/Ti33SwxLdU4?t=255
In this example, colin did a dash FH fair basically max threat range and hit me out of my dash back laser in place. I did the dash back laser in place with the intention of reading a full hop to hit him out of the air with laser and / or land a laser on him moving forward / staying on the ground in some way. I ended up getting hit by his FH fair, which was threatening me while I felt like I was still safe / spaced outside of his FH threat range stuff.

Anyways, colin in the set has before shown that he likes to do dash sh forward full drift in multi hit fair to hit me. I also think he's only likely to do it when I am high percent, as fair won't have much reward at all if i'm not at a percentage that it will pop me up.
I am also under the impression that he did the FH fair in response to my roll, as falco often likes to dash back laser to reset when he rolls, and thus is in a frame disadvantage, while still feeling safe from immediate threats, even though he is disadvantaged.

Okay that is my write up on what I think happened.
Was this mainly an error of understanding the threat range of his max drift fh fair forwards? I knew he was doing it before and was trying to hit his landing / him out of the air with the laser, but I did not expect at all to get hit when I was this far away.

I have also been messing around a lot with dash back bair to beat the aggressive full hops directly, as you recommended. Do you think I could react to this full hop fair with dash back bair if I was observing / waiting to see what he did instead of immediately making a decision as I did with the laser? I'm still not sure if I can actually react to his drift / momentum when I do the dash back bair counter attack thing I asked about 2 posts ago.

Do you think pre emptively dashing forwards is good if I expect this bair to go underneath him? Sometimes I feel like if I fail to beat the aggressive full hop directly the fox takes a bunch of space for free when he lands and I just feel pressured and have a disadvantage in the upcoming situation (the situation where he lands from the full hop and does dash back / uptilt / full hop again / shield).

Let me know if I veered off to much with this question. I am also trying to get the most out of my questions but that in itself can be tough.
 

Meck

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Hi PP,
I'm having trouble dealing with Marth's nair in neutral. It seems like the Marth uses nair to stop me from approaching with a short hop laser. Even if I space the laser and it hits, I feel like the Marth still has time to throw out a fair so I don't have time to puish. I think I could be mixxing in more aerials but I feel like the timing is a bit wonky
 

Dr Peepee

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I try to ask specifics and often tell myself I will ask specifics but I often end up asking theoretical stuff for some reason. Maybe it is just easier and more fun to talk about theoretical things.

What I want to know is how to outright beat foxes full hop with falco, pressure his full hop landing, and beat the options afterwards which I consider 3 different parts to outplaying fox in neutral.

https://youtu.be/Ti33SwxLdU4?t=255
In this example, colin did a dash FH fair basically max threat range and hit me out of my dash back laser in place. I did the dash back laser in place with the intention of reading a full hop to hit him out of the air with laser and / or land a laser on him moving forward / staying on the ground in some way. I ended up getting hit by his FH fair, which was threatening me while I felt like I was still safe / spaced outside of his FH threat range stuff.

Anyways, colin in the set has before shown that he likes to do dash sh forward full drift in multi hit fair to hit me. I also think he's only likely to do it when I am high percent, as fair won't have much reward at all if i'm not at a percentage that it will pop me up.
I am also under the impression that he did the FH fair in response to my roll, as falco often likes to dash back laser to reset when he rolls, and thus is in a frame disadvantage, while still feeling safe from immediate threats, even though he is disadvantaged.

Okay that is my write up on what I think happened.
Was this mainly an error of understanding the threat range of his max drift fh fair forwards? I knew he was doing it before and was trying to hit his landing / him out of the air with the laser, but I did not expect at all to get hit when I was this far away.

I have also been messing around a lot with dash back bair to beat the aggressive full hops directly, as you recommended. Do you think I could react to this full hop fair with dash back bair if I was observing / waiting to see what he did instead of immediately making a decision as I did with the laser? I'm still not sure if I can actually react to his drift / momentum when I do the dash back bair counter attack thing I asked about 2 posts ago.

Do you think pre emptively dashing forwards is good if I expect this bair to go underneath him? Sometimes I feel like if I fail to beat the aggressive full hop directly the fox takes a bunch of space for free when he lands and I just feel pressured and have a disadvantage in the upcoming situation (the situation where he lands from the full hop and does dash back / uptilt / full hop again / shield).

Let me know if I veered off to much with this question. I am also trying to get the most out of my questions but that in itself can be tough.
Watch frame by frame. Your main issue is actually before he FHs. You dash in out of roll, which puts you both very close since he's moving in too. I think laser in place would've been fine, but if you want to dash in vs aggressive players then you either need to fully commit or be ready to back up(WD back etc). As for Bair, if you had dashed in then you would've needed to dash away then SH immediately to cover running in so you can lower Bair while still having good spacing vs FH attacks.

In this particular clip, you can also ASDI down shine the Fair.

Hi PP,
I'm having trouble dealing with Marth's nair in neutral. It seems like the Marth uses nair to stop me from approaching with a short hop laser. Even if I space the laser and it hits, I feel like the Marth still has time to throw out a fair so I don't have time to puish. I think I could be mixxing in more aerials but I feel like the timing is a bit wonky
Depends on how close you are. If your laser hits then Marth definitely can't aerial before your aerial hits him if you're within early aerial range, but you're much more susceptible to shield grab then. You just don't have a ton of advantage so you can't wait. I'd guess either that or your spacing is off. Also you have frame advantage if you hit shield with laser. Anyway, if you're worried about Nair/Fair in place directly, then just get close enough to pop it, then wait in place for it then attack their lag. For Nair you won't always be able to get a big punish on this(though you can SH over it and Bair and sometimes SH after first Nair hit with your own Nair/Dair) but for Fair it's pretty obvious where the punishable spot is. Make sure you either laser wait then attack or laser dash back then attack depending on spacing.
 

Bones0

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Yort Yort
I think focusing on simplistic problem solving is the best way to learn, but theory is useful for altering your perspective to discover problems you may not have thought about or recognized before. For example, a common theory that players stumble upon is the importance of stage positioning. Some people may understand from the beginning that they should focus on stage control, but if you aren't one of those people, the game can feel really random and confusing. Once you arrive at the theory of "controlling center stage is the best way to win neutral", suddenly your perspective shifts and you can see all these instances where you were losing neutral because you didn't understand the concept. But ultimately, understanding the theory of stage control won't help you actually control it. It just illuminates a bunch of problems you were ignorant to because you were relying on a less comprehensive theory of the game. While stage control is a really basic theory, I think there are also very advanced ones that take time to grasp. I am a very slow learner because I get preoccupied with details so for me, larger concepts like stage control, positioning, and threat ranges are hard for me to keep in mind. I tend to be attracted towards more micro concepts like timing mixups, move choice, or other small optimizations.

I guess the point of this explanation is to suggest that you should delve into theories and concepts only long enough to alter your perspective on a situation. Once you have a fresh view of the problem, you should look for solutions, test them, then rinse and repeat. Diving deeper and deeper into theories may expand your understanding, but your gameplay won't benefit from it. You're also more likely to swerve off course into the territory of unrealistic/useless theories because your ideas aren't being grounded by experience. If you're like me, you've probably spent a ton of time theorycrafting or pondering a certain way of playing only to realize how impossible it is in practice. If I had stopped after my initial assumption and tested my theory at the beginning, I would have saved myself a lot of time instead of building concepts on top of concepts which are all flimsy or downright inaccurate.

With regards to Colin's FH approach, I agree with PP that your little DD wasted valuable time without really doing much. You're too far away for a dash forward to threaten Fox, and the dash back didn't really move you out of his range either. Ignoring those things, it honestly look like you could have baired the FH on reaction since you had already SHed, but because you lasered so late, it seems like you were mentally committed to lasering earlier than was necessary.
 

Blackbird66

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Hi PP and co

I'm starting to learn the game competitively and so far am enjoying playing falco. His movement feels really smooth to me and I like his general playstyle. However from some Reddit comments I've seen it seems like maybe falco isn't the best character to learn the game with because it's fairly easy to just spam lasers and tech skill and not really develop a strong neutral. I figure if I'm mindful that won't happen but I'd like your input

Thank you <33
 

Dr Peepee

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You can always round yourself out by playing other characters and learning them too. This has the added benefit of helping you learn to beat those characters and making your Falco stronger.

I wouldn't worry about developing skills and such since good players can still beat mindless laser spam. So long as you're willing to build your understanding and don't lazily spam, you'll be alright.
 

Bones0

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Hi PP and co

I'm starting to learn the game competitively and so far am enjoying playing falco. His movement feels really smooth to me and I like his general playstyle. However from some Reddit comments I've seen it seems like maybe falco isn't the best character to learn the game with because it's fairly easy to just spam lasers and tech skill and not really develop a strong neutral. I figure if I'm mindful that won't happen but I'd like your input

Thank you <33
Spamming lasers and mindlessly approaching can be a huge crutch at low levels, but these days you won't get far in tournament without someone being able to challenge these tools and make you think. I would recommend not really listening to random comments on Reddit since they're often misinformed or extremely biased. I think given a good perspective on the game, lasers can actually make it easier to learn neutral interactions since it is closer to resembling traditional fighting game footsies, and they allow you to establish a clear mixup scenario from which to progress. Other characters have to learn neutral based on more abstract threats like the possibility that they could run up and grab or some other kind of approach. Hope that helps!
 
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Dandelion

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Hello PP, I have some questions about fighting Peach.

-When Peach is floating above the highest possible laser height, I feel so extremely threatened by her fair that I end up dash-dancing myself into the corner or just getting smacked for trying to out-prioritize with an aerial/uptilt. I can usually safely jump away to a platform but then I have to get back down and I feel like it's a never ending dance of jumping away and then resetting and then having to jump away again. Can you challenge Peach's high float in a direct way? Or should I be preying on the landing/the action after landing?

-What would you consider the 'best possible position' to be for Falco vs Peach? Or at least some positions that I should be aware of where Falco is in an advantageous position. And what do Peaches usually do when in this/these position(s)?

-What would you consider the 'worst possible position' to be? And what are the most common ways Falcos deal with being put here?

-Has anyone ever even been as far as to have decided who should want to do look more like?
 

Dr Peepee

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-If she Fairs early, then you have to back up and Bair her landing for pressure or damage if lucky. Otherwise back up and laser it. Sometimes you can dash/run in and FH/DJ Nair her out of her float but this isn't usually possible. You can also just get on a side platform and land with laser which hits this float height. You can then fall down with laser as she's on the ground and chase her from there.

-Falco needs to be right next to(shine distance) Peach with a laser out, or at least some other frame advantage. This way she can't jab/Dsmash her way out and has to shield which should be a great advantage for you. Usually Peaches don't roll and just hold shield here, which sets up grabs if you can convert, and good pressure if you can't, just watch for up-B/Nair OOS.

-Being close to Peach but just out of shine distance with her having frame advantage. Something like her landing from Fair near you without you being ready or something. Holding down can be alright since Peaches often jab here, as can FH away or WD back. Sometimes you just have to shield though unfortunately.

-que
 

Scroll

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A little surprised you didn't mention Fair. It reaches just above highest laser height.
That's usually what Ginger tells people when they ask about this float height
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah I forgot to mention that if Peach does her Fair late instead of early you can hit her out of it with Bair/Utilt/Fair and sometimes Nair. Fair occasionally works on her float height on some stages but that will depend on how close the Peach float habits. So if they usually immediately FC Fair backward if you get near them, then I wouldn't recommend Fair. I think it may also depend on stage since some of the higher side platforms force an even higher float height you couldn't reliably Fair. Didn't feel like including all of this in my initial response but probably should have included some of it.
 

Cucumber

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What are some ways to deal with people baiting shield drop aerials when they are DDing below me on a platform? I can jump away, but then I need to get down. Shield drop waveland is something I do, but sometimes it's too slow.
 

Dr Peepee

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FH is fine since on your drift back you can Dair vs laser to keep yourself safe usually(you can also go to top platform usually which is helpful). You can also SH and mix falling through the platform or landing on it or going down then DJ'ing back to it. You can also WD off of the platform into them or away from them, or just down to change the situation. You could also shield drop empty land and drift away from them before you land so you have time to shield and punish their attack or attack their grab attempt.

Edit: Oh and you could also just shield drop laser since they'd be spaced and waiting for an aerial, whups lol
 
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Bones0

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I think WD off laser (in whichever direction they are furthest from) is very good for that situation. It creates space between you and the opponent, and lasering ensures they can't continue DDing or chase your movement on reaction.

11,111 posts... Such feels, OMG.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Hi PP/Bones, I'm a mid level Falco and the best at my college by far. One thing I've noticed is through my constant analysis and application against bad players/players worse than me, I've developed a bad habit. When playing against better players at a city nearby, I have a solid gameplan at first, but fail to adapt. Another way of saying this is I don't get to apply my ideas against better/good players, and thus I'm really strong against the style of melee people play at my college, but bad at adapting to others.

How do I go about better learning to adapt when I don't have easy access to players better than me. I've tried a lot of visualization during analysis, and some shadowboxing, but for some reason they seem to reinforce my problem rather than aid it.

I should also mention that recently I've converted my main source of improvement to analysis rather than netplay, because I've found that mindlessly spamming ranked games makes me frustrated and I feel worse coming out of it. During analysis I look at each and every position and go into detail why it was done considering what's happened before, what each players could do better, and the mixups they could do beyond what I see in the vod.

I feel like my process of improvement is solid, and I spend at least about 2 hours a day on analysis, but I feel like the results are still the same. Am I not approaching my problem correctly or is it simply a matter of time?
 

Bones0

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Hi PP/Bones, I'm a mid level Falco and the best at my college by far. One thing I've noticed is through my constant analysis and application against bad players/players worse than me, I've developed a bad habit. When playing against better players at a city nearby, I have a solid gameplan at first, but fail to adapt. Another way of saying this is I don't get to apply my ideas against better/good players, and thus I'm really strong against the style of melee people play at my college, but bad at adapting to others.

How do I go about better learning to adapt when I don't have easy access to players better than me. I've tried a lot of visualization during analysis, and some shadowboxing, but for some reason they seem to reinforce my problem rather than aid it.

I should also mention that recently I've converted my main source of improvement to analysis rather than netplay, because I've found that mindlessly spamming ranked games makes me frustrated and I feel worse coming out of it. During analysis I look at each and every position and go into detail why it was done considering what's happened before, what each players could do better, and the mixups they could do beyond what I see in the vod.

I feel like my process of improvement is solid, and I spend at least about 2 hours a day on analysis, but I feel like the results are still the same. Am I not approaching my problem correctly or is it simply a matter of time?
Everyone is different, but I would recommend combining analysis, friendlies, and ranked matches all together as a form of improvement. Play ranked matches and do your best to win. Analyze those matches to figure out why you lost and devise some sort of solution/counterplay. Practice those solutions in friendlies (either offline or on netplay). Take your newly incorporated solutions back into ranked and apply them to beat better and better players.

If you tunnel vision on only playing friendlies or only analyzing or only grinding ranked, then you won't have all the good chances to plan, practice, and test the different aspects of your gameplay. PP has talked about how he practiced and hopefully he can elaborate, but he generally just studied videos, theorycrafted how to beat certain things, then would practice it vs. his brother. Having your gameplan be ineffective vs. better players and not being able to adapt on the fly is normal. Adapting mid-set is mostly for discerning tendencies or habits; you can't expect to learn how to beat a better player as you play. You may be able to come up with a few solutions or ideas, but the best thing you can do is identify where things are going wrong and/or record you matches so you can go back later and figure it out.

If the players at your college are actually dedicated and serious about improving, you should also try to teach them what they could be doing against you that the better players do. If a good Fox player keeps beating you by spamming FHs, mention that to your college training partners and ask them to try using it.
 
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MambaGreenFalco

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Everyone is different, but I would recommend combining analysis, friendlies, and ranked matches all together as a form of improvement. Play ranked matches and do your best to win. Analyze those matches to figure out why you lost and devise some sort of solution/counterplay. Practice those solutions in friendlies (either offline or on netplay). Take your newly incorporated solutions back into ranked and apply them to beat better and better players.

If you tunnel vision on only playing friendlies or only analyzing or only grinding ranked, then you won't have all the good chances to plan, practice, and test the different aspects of your gameplay. PP has talked about how he practiced and hopefully he can elaborate, but he generally just studied videos, theorycrafted how to beat certain things, then would practice it vs. his brother. Having your gameplan be ineffective vs. better players and not being able to adapt on the fly is normal. Adapting mid-set is mostly for discerning tendencies or habits; you can't expect to learn how to beat a better player as you play. You may be able to come up with a few solutions or ideas, but the best thing you can do is identify where things are going wrong and/or record you matches so you can go back later and figure it out.

If the players at your college are actually dedicated and serious about improving, you should also try to teach them what they could be doing against you that the better players do. If a good Fox player keeps beating you by spamming FHs, mention that to your college training partners and ask them to try using it.
Thanks Bones, that all makes sense.

I found last night after analyzing a lot that my play was more fun, creative, and rewarding. So I feel like I'm already starting to get a feel for the ratio I should have of analysis/shadowboxing/practice.

I've tried asking my friends to use certain options against me to see how I do against it. But of course since I'm a lot better than them the option I tell them to do is (understandably) super telegraphed and not usually applied in the right scenario, so I find I can bait it easily and punish it easily. For example recently I asked my sheik main friend to use slight dash back shield after a their short hop aerial because I saw faceroll do it in a vod a lot, and it seemed like the option was super strong and almost unpunishable. However, I was able to beat it pretty easily because they did the same shff timing and thus I was able to time my dd nair around it to get in on their shield and then shine grab/shine immediate nair fade away. So does this mean it's my responsibility to teach them more about what they're doing wrong? Does the main reward from this practice come from explaining what options they could do to beat my option?

Are there any other strategies I can use to get as much as I can out of playing people much worse than me? Also what kind of solutions would you use to beat that option ^^^?

BTW here's the vod of faceroll using it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXG8LLXaKtc Faceroll has a habit of dashing away after every sh in general, so I would also like to know how you would go about punishing that. I've considered lasering slightly closer to punish them for dashing back and taking more stage, because I feel nairing into a sheik dashing back after that fair is super unsafe unless you time the nair right after the fair (which is the option I was using to beat my friend's sheik so I never know what factors are making it work) Did the nair work even though the theory is bad? Did the nair work because my friend did telegraphed short hops? Or did the nair work simply because it's a good option in this situation. I have so many questions flowing through my head right now which probably means there's some base idea I'm missing, or perhaps this is just the process one goes through when trying to figure out all the mixups when considering a specific case between two characters?

Ty again!!
 

Dr Peepee

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Are you analyzing yourself?

In many instances, when we get put "out of our depth" to use a more chess-like term, we just need to examine the next steps. My analysis was especially focused on next steps. So I couldn't always see where I had openings, but opponents could show me and sometimes other players in other sets could too. So if you're losing to this one Faceroll technique, then you'd need to ask what positions cause you to lose, or what other things is he threatening while choosing to go for this? (the second question should be something to help your friends use the option better) That should get you started. As for your own plan, you want to see what your timings cover and how to switch those up. Many times people will attack from the same spacing and in Falco's case they may just attack after a laser in the same way every time. So even if you mix up what you do before the laser, if you always immediately high Nair after every laser in most situations, then you'll be very predictable. It's hard to go too much deeper without more information, but this is why shadowboxing is actually important. It doesn't reinforce if done correctly, since you're supposed to also use the time to question yourself and make adjustments where you observe weaknesses.

I would also recommend experimenting with new styles and new ways of covering options you theorize in shadowboxing + analysis when playing people weaker than you. Experimentation helps build real application muscle memory and could help give you access to it in more difficult situations. Practice will reinforce.
 

MambaGreenFalco

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Are you analyzing yourself?

In many instances, when we get put "out of our depth" to use a more chess-like term, we just need to examine the next steps. My analysis was especially focused on next steps. So I couldn't always see where I had openings, but opponents could show me and sometimes other players in other sets could too. So if you're losing to this one Faceroll technique, then you'd need to ask what positions cause you to lose, or what other things is he threatening while choosing to go for this? (the second question should be something to help your friends use the option better) That should get you started. As for your own plan, you want to see what your timings cover and how to switch those up. Many times people will attack from the same spacing and in Falco's case they may just attack after a laser in the same way every time. So even if you mix up what you do before the laser, if you always immediately high Nair after every laser in most situations, then you'll be very predictable. It's hard to go too much deeper without more information, but this is why shadowboxing is actually important. It doesn't reinforce if done correctly, since you're supposed to also use the time to question yourself and make adjustments where you observe weaknesses.

I would also recommend experimenting with new styles and new ways of covering options you theorize in shadowboxing + analysis when playing people weaker than you. Experimentation helps build real application muscle memory and could help give you access to it in more difficult situations. Practice will reinforce.
I was amazed when the first thing you asked is if i'm analyzing myself, because that's the one thing I'm not doing which I plan on doing next time I have a netplay sesh. I'm not also entirely sure what you mean by "next steps"? By that do you mean I'm looking too far into analysis and should instead be keeping it simple by looking for simple timing, move choice, and spacing mixups? Or perhaps you're saying that I should be looking more at the bigger picture and what factors about my style/decision paths I choose that make me weak against the faceroll technique. Again I'm not entirely sure what the "next step" is.

How exactly does shadowboxing not reinforce if done correctly, but at the same time help me internalize options? What is it not supposed to reinforce?

How do you go about coming up with new rules to follow to try out new styles when playing against weaker opponents? My play is so grounded in strong stage positioning and staying grounded that I find it's hard for me to deviate from those rules. For this same reason my favorite players to watch are you/santiago and find I have to be in a particular mood to watch westballz/squid. I'm not saying that they don't adhere to those same rules, but for some reason the style that you/santi play make much more sense to me. Recently I've forced myself to start experimenting with full hop ff/dj mixups and I've had some success, and I've also tried to incorporate stuff that squid/wes do more. But mostly I'm trying to come up with rules/gameplans that they follow so that I can emulate and learn from that, but because I'm so unfamiliar with their style I'm not entirely sure how to verbalize their gameplan in a succinct, comprehensive manner. Is there a process I can follow that can help me define new styles to try?
 
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