PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[LeadRod]

"but I mean... you've got Falco combos."
Lmao, fair enough. Thats pretty good can't lie. XD Just was wondering. The other day I got to thinking about how the reading of DI works and that the person will pretty much always DI to either 1) Avoid taking damage 2)Avoid going offstage 3)Avoid dying. It helped me put context to my combos a lot especially when I started thinking about how the opponent would try to read me reading them.

 

[FE_Hector]

"but I mean... you've got Falco combos."
Lmao, fair enough. Thats pretty good can't lie. XD Just was wondering. The other day I got to thinking about how the reading of DI works and that the person will pretty much always DI to either 1) Avoid taking damage 2)Avoid going offstage 3)Avoid dying. It helped me put context to my combos a lot especially when I started thinking about how the opponent would try to read me reading them.

Yeah, so if you're reading that they'll DI to avoid taking damage without regard for going offstage, you can put in that fsmash mixup I mentioned. It's also nice to throw in random reverse hitboxes to trip up DI.

 

[LeadRod]

Yeah, so if you're reading that they'll DI to avoid taking damage without regard for going offstage, you can put in that fsmash mixup I mentioned. It's also nice to throw in random reverse hitboxes to trip up DI.

Yeah thats a good one. I found that a throw mixup at the edge is either f-throw if you catch them DIing out or Up-throw dair off DI in. Also back throw suuuper easily chains into another grab on FF at low percent if they arent DIing for it but that one is pretty established at this point Im sure.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah thats a good one. I found that a throw mixup at the edge is either f-throw if you catch them DIing out or Up-throw dair off DI in. Also back throw suuuper easily chains into another grab on FF at low percent if they arent DIing for it but that one is pretty established at this point Im sure.

Uthrow dair mixups at mid to high %s against a lot of characters work pretty well. WBallz did it a LOT vs Marth's at SSS B4B if you wanna look there. PPMD did it once to Mango, I'm pretty sure, but I've watched so many VODs I can't keep it all straight.

 

[Bones0]

Vista_

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wDdb-kNgCaZ-zTBFL33rrs3bcPjRWpEnXHegYCIaO5o

 

[Vista_]

Vista_

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wDdb-kNgCaZ-zTBFL33rrs3bcPjRWpEnXHegYCIaO5o

Bones, will you marry me?

 

[V_x_I_D]

So I've been practicing my shield pressure on 20xx by setting the cpu to grab OoS and I've been able to get my late dair shines and shine grabs down, but I'm having trouble with shine -> dair
I can get it sometimes, but I feel like I'm missing something. It also seems dependent on how close I am to the opponent (being just a bit further away I get grabbed less, but touching their character model while they're in shield I get grabbed easier) how fast do I have to dair before I get hit by the grab hitbox?

Any tips?

 

[FE_Hector]

So I've been practicing my shield pressure on 20xx by setting the cpu to grab OoS and I've been able to get my late dair shines and shine grabs down, but I'm having trouble with shine -> dair
I can get it sometimes, but I feel like I'm missing something. It also seems dependent on how close I am to the opponent (being just a bit further away I get grabbed less, but touching their character model while they're in shield I get grabbed easier) how fast do I have to dair before I get hit by the grab hitbox?

Any tips?

The dair probably has to be as soon as you're airborne and with you already drifting backwards. I'm no shield pressure expert, but that's what intuition is telling me.

 

[Vista_]

Hey guys, what's the frame leniency for a ledge drop->firebird stall to refresh invincibility (no shine)? I don't have 20xx right now so I can't see the invincibility frames. Is it frame perfect?

 

[Klemes]

So I've been practicing my shield pressure on 20xx by setting the cpu to grab OoS and I've been able to get my late dair shines and shine grabs down, but I'm having trouble with shine -> dair
I can get it sometimes, but I feel like I'm missing something. It also seems dependent on how close I am to the opponent (being just a bit further away I get grabbed less, but touching their character model while they're in shield I get grabbed easier) how fast do I have to dair before I get hit by the grab hitbox?

Any tips?

you do know shine>nair is safer right ?
IMO shine>nair fade away is better to apply safe shield pressure. Then sometimes I'll shine> delayed dair to catch them moving OoS once they're used to the fade away nair timing.

Hey guys, what's the frame leniency for a ledge drop->firebird stall to refresh invincibility (no shine)? I don't have 20xx right now so I can't see the invincibility frames. Is it frame perfect?

haven't seen any data, but from practicing with 20XX I can tell it's pretty f hard to remain invincible the whole time. So ye I'd say either 1 or 2 extra frames. Or it's just me and I'm wasting frames before letting go, jumping...

 

[tauKhan]

Hey guys, what's the frame leniency for a ledge drop->firebird stall to refresh invincibility (no shine)? I don't have 20xx right now so I can't see the invincibility frames. Is it frame perfect?

There's a plenty of leniency and ways to upb to ledge, but you always have to let go off the ledge frame perfectly to stay fully intangible.

 

[Vista_]

There's a plenty of leniency and ways to upb to ledge, but you always have to let go off the ledge frame perfectly to stay fully intangible.

Thanks. Also, another noob question. When Fox up airs you, do you just slam the control stick and the c-stick in the opposite direction of his drift, or do you have to roll the control stick to get multiple units of SDI? I've watched and read a couple guides on this and it's still hard for me to make out what they're trying to say.

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks. Also, another noob question. When Fox up airs you, do you just slam the control stick and the c-stick in the opposite direction of his drift, or do you have to roll the control stick to get multiple units of SDI? I've watched and read a couple guides on this and it's still hard for me to make out what they're trying to say.

If he's dashing right and jumps to uair you (so he's got momentum to the right), I believe the general agreement is that you should hold left on the C-stick to get the ASDI for if you miss. As for the control stick, do rapid quarter circles from SW to NW so that you're most likely to hit one of the stock notches during the hitlag of the first hit uair. The ASDI moves you half of an SDI unit, I believe, which gives you a bit of a buffer for if you miss the actual SDI, and is just useful in general. I'm really bad about remembering to do this though, that's just what I'm pretty sure I've read.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.

I don't know if I've asked this question before, but I've grown a lot as a player since I started almost a year and a half ago.

I have a severe mental game issue.
I have trouble learning my opponent's patterns.
I have trouble noticing my opponent's tactics until it's too late (once a Captain falco literally just ran around and faired to get my last stock and I didnt realize all I had to do aas uptilt)
It seems like I'm only decent at tech and playing patient enough to punish a whiffed attack.

Is half of the mental game pretty much just knowing the matchup and all the options my opponent has and all my options that beat them?

I feel like this is the hugest thing holding me back from becoming more than just a decent player.

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks for the help guys, I appreciate it.

I don't know if I've asked this question before, but I've grown a lot as a player since I started almost a year and a half ago.

I have a severe mental game issue.
I have trouble learning my opponent's patterns.
I have trouble noticing my opponent's tactics until it's too late (once a Captain falco literally just ran around and faired to get my last stock and I didnt realize all I had to do aas uptilt)
It seems like I'm only decent at tech and playing patient enough to punish a whiffed attack.

Is half of the mental game pretty much just knowing the matchup and all the options my opponent has and all my options that beat them?

I feel like this is the hugest thing holding me back from becoming more than just a decent player.

Yeah, knowing MUs and what's "good" and "bad" in MUs is a really big thing, as is techskill. The way I had it explained to me once was that Melee has two levels of fundamentals. First is the MU- and stage-based knowledge of the game, as well as having pretty good techskill and movement. AFTER that, you start meeting better players in bracket who have moved on to the next level of the game: traditional fighting game fundamentals. What is your opponent looking for? How can you punish them? How hard are they reading you? What options are they likely to choose? Little things like that.

Also, don't worry about not being able to think too much during a match. In his Marth thread, PPMD recently said that thinking during a game is literally impossible. It's rather odd, but he basically said that you have to trust your subconscious to have a good enough game plan and the proper reactions to most situations. The game's just too fast to be actively thinking "oh, he just nair'd at me three times in a row, so I should grab his landing lag." it's more of a... a subconscious awareness of their tendency to nair and your positioning yourself where they think they can nair you and you punish from there. It's rather weird overall and I don't fully comprehend it yet, but that's what I got out of it overall.

 

[V_x_I_D]

Yeah, knowing MUs and what's "good" and "bad" in MUs is a really big thing, as is techskill. The way I had it explained to me once was that Melee has two levels of fundamentals. First is the MU- and stage-based knowledge of the game, as well as having pretty good techskill and movement. AFTER that, you start meeting better players in bracket who have moved on to the next level of the game: traditional fighting game fundamentals. What is your opponent looking for? How can you punish them? How hard are they reading you? What options are they likely to choose? Little things like that.

Also, don't worry about not being able to think too much during a match. In his Marth thread, PPMD recently said that thinking during a game is literally impossible. It's rather odd, but he basically said that you have to trust your subconscious to have a good enough game plan and the proper reactions to most situations. The game's just too fast to be actively thinking "oh, he just nair'd at me three times in a row, so I should grab his landing lag." it's more of a... a subconscious awareness of their tendency to nair and your positioning yourself where they think they can nair you and you punish from there. It's rather weird overall and I don't fully comprehend it yet, but that's what I got out of it overall.

I feel like I'm on the brink of the fighting game fundamental part of my career...where do i start building and learnin these fundamemtal

 

[FE_Hector]

I feel like I'm on the brink of the fighting game fundamental part of my career...where do i start building and learnin these fundamemtal

Frankly, I'm not entirely at that point yet, so I can't say. I'm good at breaking down situations to get the Smash-level fundamentals down, but FGC fundamentals are something I don't understand how to build. What I do with some other things, though, is look for habits in specific situations.

Silly example, but I play Pokken at a friends house sometimes. If he puts me in one situation and I shield, he ALWAYS does a grab because that's what traditionally beats it. To beat the grab, I just throw out a soft attack. I recognized that he ALWAYS did that option in that situation, so I ALWAYS used the one option that beats it. Obviously it's easier to do that when you're not playing against people that are mixing themselves up and actively adapting, but it's a relatively simple example. I guess you should just try to convert that kind of "in X situation he does Y so I should do Z" type thing into Melee.

LATE EDIT: Some stuff PP was talking about on a very similar topic. He talks a lot about mental aspects of the game over in the Marth threads. https://smashboards.com/threads/car...t-the-tiara-guy.118998/page-432#post-21567625

 

[Bones0]

Read the last few posts but I don't feel like quoting each of them.

Shine -> Dair shield pressure:
- Practice jump cancelling your shine asap. If you do this vs. a shield grabbing Marth, his grab will whiff, even if you don't do an attack.

- Practice dairing on the first airborne frame. I recommend going from Y to C-stick down. You have 5 frames of jumpsquat to get your thumb to the C-stick, and C-sticking makes it a trivial matter to get full drift away.

- Combine them and try to maintain both timings. Your goal is to get the dair out before their grab box comes out so spacing should be irrelevant if they grab. Ofc, you'll want to practice your drifting once you get the rest down so you don't get punished when they hold shield. Personally, I think shine fadeaway dair is better than fadeaway nair because it's very difficult to get analog jump back, reset to neutral for the nair before they can shield grab, and then press back again to get the rest of your drift.



SDIing Fox's uair:
- Get in the habit of envisioning where Fox's uair hitbubble will be on the next frame based on his momentum, both horizontally and vertically. If you watch Hbox, he is good at knowing when he can SDI upwards to escape and also when he is too low and will have to SDI horizontally. When you play experienced Fox mains, they will frequently dash forward and then drift backwards with their DJ uair to compensate for players trying to SDI against their dash direction. This is the mixup for SDIing, so you have to be aware of it. Just because you didn't get out of the uair doesn't mean you missed the SDI or did it in the wrong direction.

- Holding the C-stick in the desired direction might be optimal, but I wouldn't recommend while you're still learning since there's more important things to think about. First of all, ASDI input is checked on the last frame of hitlag and I'd say most of the time people miss their SDI is because they did it too early, in which case you will still get the ASDI for whatever direction your control stick is in. Secondly, ASDI is usually not enough to escape on its own anyway unless the Fox is spacing their uair poorly. Thirdly, trying to hold the C-stick can make you judge too early which direction you should SDI. Because of the mixup I explained above, you often can't tell which direction you should SDI until the last moment. Consequently, it's much more important to get the right direction than to have the backup ASDI input (imo).

- Don't try to SDI down or you will look dumb like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_mVNILlkzQ#t=3m40s



FGC Fundamentals:
- Disclaimer before anyone goes in deep with the FGC footsies stuff: I think all of it is VERY valuable and has concepts that hold back most Melee players because they don't understand it. That being said, I also think it's easy to get too wrapped in up footsies concepts and forget that Melee is NOT Street Fighter. There's tons of concepts that apply, but the solutions are not 1:1. For example, the idea that you should "very rarely" jump in SF obviously will not apply to Melee, or at least not Falco. Our game has platforms, a variety of jump speeds, gravity, and much more flexible movement. I would suggest immersing yourself in the footsies concepts, but when you feel you have a decent understanding of them, try to relate them back to Melee in a meaningful way instead of trying to play Street Fighter with Falco.

- Footsies Handbook: http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

- Juicebox's Explanation of Footsies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQQCan5oo90

- Juicebox on Online Play, Fighting Game Theory, Competition, and an Indepth Guide to Frame Traps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFvJch7u_KU

 

[Deleted member]

Bones0 go back to the House avatar so all of your posts can be super condescending to read

 

[Vista_]

Hey guys, I have a question about trajectory DI. If you don't input any trajectory di on the last frame of hitlag, can you at any point during the hitstun start to di at an angle by inputting it late? So if I get hit by a falcon knee and I don't input survival DI until after the hitlag is over, does it do anything?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey guys, I have a question about trajectory DI. If you don't input any trajectory di on the last frame of hitlag, can you at any point during the hitstun start to di at an angle by inputting it late? So if I get hit by a falcon knee and I don't input survival DI until after the hitlag is over, does it do anything?

I'm almost entirely sure that it doesn't do anything.

 

[redcometchar]

So i have a question if someone would be so kind as to help me out.

Why are double lasers from the ledge so unsafe against anyone but fox/falco?

38 frames of ledge invincibility
can drop from ledge on frame 9
dj on frame 10
begin laser frame 12 (one frame delay)
first laser comes out frame 25 (still invincible)
Second laser comes out frame 38 (last frame of invincibility)
lands on frame 43 (begins hard landing lag)
free on frame 47

So your only vulnerable for 8 frames, the lasers stuff any preemptive attempt to punish that isn't a blatant full hop, and if they are hit by the lasers and they cc them, that leaves them with 4 frames to punish and falco is grounded, which means he can cc. Fox and falco have their one frame shine that breaks cc so they can punish, but who else has a 4 frame move that breaks cc? marths up b is 5 frames, and even if it worked you could tech it and punish him, jabs get cc shined, and grabs are too slow.

Spaced grabs and moves are the only things to worry about but you have plenty of time to recognize and you can buffer a spot dodge. I dont understand.

 

[FE_Hector]

So i have a question if someone would be so kind as to help me out.

Why are double lasers from the ledge so unsafe against anyone but fox/falco?

38 frames of ledge invincibility
can drop from ledge on frame 9
dj on frame 10
begin laser frame 12 (one frame delay)
first laser comes out frame 25 (still invincible)
Second laser comes out frame 38 (last frame of invincibility)
lands on frame 43 (begins hard landing lag)
free on frame 47

So your only vulnerable for 8 frames, the lasers stuff any preemptive attempt to punish that isn't a blatant full hop, and if they are hit by the lasers and they cc them, that leaves them with 4 frames to punish and falco is grounded, which means he can cc. Fox and falco have their one frame shine that breaks cc so they can punish, but who else has a 4 frame move that breaks cc? marths up b is 5 frames, and even if it worked you could tech it and punish him, jabs get cc shined, and grabs are too slow.

Spaced grabs and moves are the only things to worry about but you have plenty of time to recognize and you can buffer a spot dodge. I dont understand.

Because most of the time you don't want to put out absurdly high double lasers. You're gonna wanna drop for a bit so that both of your lasers occupy roughly the same space, meaning that you're gonna be vulnerable for way longer.

 

[redcometchar]

Because most of the time you don't want to put out absurdly high double lasers. You're gonna wanna drop for a bit so that both of your lasers occupy roughly the same space, meaning that you're gonna be vulnerable for way longer.

I see. thanks

 

[Bones0]

Bones0 go back to the House avatar so all of your posts can be super condescending to read

I prefer to allow people to discover how condescending I am over time.

 

[Vista_]

Hey y'all, I lost a close set to a Marth player recently at a tourney. I feel like I have a good feel for the punish game but I feel like I would've won by a long stretch if I had a more fleshed out understanding of the neutral vs Marth. Generally I try to laser the Marth to keep him from moving around and I see what movements and attacks from me elicit a response that I can bait and punish from him. However on smaller stages I have a hard time testing the Marth because he can threaten me from across the stage. does anyone have any tips for the Marth matchup in neutral?

 

[MewtwoForce]

Need help. I'm trying to figure out a reliable follow up from a shine on fox that has 15% on battlefield near the lower platforms that puts fox on the platform. Need a follow up for after fox lands on the platform.

For now to make things simple we'll just focus on one part of the DI issue.

If i'm near the left of the platform depending on the DI he lands right on the edge closest to me, the middle of the platform, or the far right part of the platform. If i'm looking for it I can catch him with a shine if he DIs on the far left closest to me. But if I take time to try and read where his DI is taking him, that extra information processing makes me too slow to react in time to anything right now. And i'm especially having trouble if he DIs to the far right and tech rolls all the way to far left.

I can't tell if I don't have any reliable follow ups here or if i'm just too slow at executing them. Or if fox just has too many mixup escape options on the platform to do anything significant consistently to him.

Options i've tried so far.
1. Jumping into an immediate waveland on the platform. This doesn't seem fast enough. If it is I need to condition myself to react faster

2. Wavedashing as fast as possible to try and jump up through the platform and catch them with a shine where they land. This is awkward because if I hit the shine i'm stuck in mid air and can't get any decent momentum to chase them unless their DI is really bad.

3. Full hopping out of shine over the platform to try and read where he lands with a dair and maybe have a follow up option figured out if the dair doesn't land where he is.

Nothing else is really coming to mind. Maybe try to land with them and laser them at the same time? I don't think that would be fast enough though. Maybe my wavedashes are too short and that's cutting down on my movement speed?

 

[FE_Hector]

Need help. I'm trying to figure out a reliable follow up from a shine on fox that has 15% on battlefield near the lower platforms that puts fox on the platform. Need a follow up for after fox lands on the platform.

For now to make things simple we'll just focus on one part of the DI issue.

If i'm near the left of the platform depending on the DI he lands right on the edge closest to me, the middle of the platform, or the far right part of the platform. If i'm looking for it I can catch him with a shine if he DIs on the far left closest to me. But if I take time to try and read where his DI is taking him, that extra information processing makes me too slow to react in time to anything right now. And i'm especially having trouble if he DIs to the far right and tech rolls all the way to far left.

I can't tell if I don't have any reliable follow ups here or if i'm just too slow at executing them. Or if fox just has too many mixup escape options on the platform to do anything significant consistently to him.

Options i've tried so far.
1. Jumping into an immediate waveland on the platform. This doesn't seem fast enough. If it is I need to condition myself to react faster

2. Wavedashing as fast as possible to try and jump up through the platform and catch them with a shine where they land. This is awkward because if I hit the shine i'm stuck in mid air and can't get any decent momentum to chase them unless their DI is really bad.

3. Full hopping out of shine over the platform to try and read where he lands with a dair and maybe have a follow up option figured out if the dair doesn't land where he is.

Nothing else is really coming to mind. Maybe try to land with them and laser them at the same time? I don't think that would be fast enough though. Maybe my wavedashes are too short and that's cutting down on my movement speed?

Unless I'm reading this totally wrong, then #2 is your best option. Get a shine in, wavedash out, and react to his tech options with a jump up shine. It's REALLY hard to do, but it oughtta be possible. After you shine, just waveland onto the platform REALLY fast. You can't catch 100% of DI, but you can still catch a fair amount of it and there is some room when you're good at this I'm relatively sure there's at least some room for mixups.

 

[Logan Terpening]

Any tips for a new Falco players?

Yes... Including myself

 

[FE_Hector]

Any tips for a new Falco players?

Yes... Including myself

Start off slowly. You don't need to start off doing westballz pressure, shine wavelands, etc. Learn how Falco moves. Practice your lasers and being comfortable with approaching, retreating, and in-place lasers. Become comfortable with Falco's wavedash. Learn to SHFFL with every aerial, but become especially comfortable with d/nair's.

Some people have this massive list of techskill and fundamental things to learn, but those are really the basic things you should learn first. After that (and you're really comfortable with grounded movement in general) is when it's time to start learning how to pillar and specific combo things and stuff like that.

 

[Krysco]

I'll second that questioning of what to do for beginner Falco's. Primarily a Sm4sh player who's getting into Melee since my sparring buddy prefers it over Sm4sh. Main thing I've found is that I need to get used to wavedashing and all of its applications and lcancelling. The latter is pretty simple since it's just pressing L after an aerial but the former has so much application I have to get used to. Gotta learn the timing for wavelanding on every legal stages platforms, wavedashing onto stage from the ledge, just found out that wavedashing backwards at the edge of a platform makes you fall off while going forwards always seems to stop you at the edge. There's wavedash OoS and out of shine. Wavedashing into shine and whatever else. I can dash dance just fine but I always forget I can do it, still need to learn the timing for foxtrotting and I also need to get used to jump cancelled grabs. Edit: Never sure when to crouch cancel either.

For Falco specific stuff, I've gotten the hang of shine -> aerial and have been slowly but surely getting the timing for Phantasm cancelling. Slowly getting used to using shine as a means of turning around to bair in front of me. Couldn't sh ac laser for the life of me but I just got my crt hooked up and it's super easy now. Turnaround laser is taking a bit of time to get used to. Still get the occasional Phantasm off the stage instead. Gotta learn how to angle and sweetspot Fire Bird properly and I'm not too informed on what Falco's combo moves are aside from dair, shine and utilt. Not sure what he has that jab locks either though I'd imagine lasers do. Also not sure what the best throws are to use in any situation. Best I've found is dthrow -> dtilt but I don't think that's a true combo.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'll second that questioning of what to do for beginner Falco's. Primarily a Sm4sh player who's getting into Melee since my sparring buddy prefers it over Sm4sh. Main thing I've found is that I need to get used to wavedashing and all of its applications and lcancelling. The latter is pretty simple since it's just pressing L after an aerial but the former has so much application I have to get used to. Gotta learn the timing for wavelanding on every legal stages platforms, wavedashing onto stage from the ledge, just found out that wavedashing backwards at the edge of a platform makes you fall off while going forwards always seems to stop you at the edge. There's wavedash OoS and out of shine. Wavedashing into shine and whatever else. I can dash dance just fine but I always forget I can do it, still need to learn the timing for foxtrotting and I also need to get used to jump cancelled grabs. Edit: Never sure when to crouch cancel either.

For Falco specific stuff, I've gotten the hang of shine -> aerial and have been slowly but surely getting the timing for Phantasm cancelling. Slowly getting used to using shine as a means of turning around to bair in front of me. Couldn't sh ac laser for the life of me but I just got my crt hooked up and it's super easy now. Turnaround laser is taking a bit of time to get used to. Still get the occasional Phantasm off the stage instead. Gotta learn how to angle and sweetspot Fire Bird properly and I'm not too informed on what Falco's combo moves are aside from dair, shine and utilt. Not sure what he has that jab locks either though I'd imagine lasers do. Also not sure what the best throws are to use in any situation. Best I've found is dthrow -> dtilt but I don't think that's a true combo.

Lotsa text. You're very right about L-canceling, it's relatively simple. For wavedashing, though, a lot of it is preference and try not to overwhelm yourself as you're new to the game. For example, something you can do once you're more comfortable with general movement is dash -> wavedash, aka wavesurfing, for quicker grounded movement. And yeah, you can't wavedash or waveland forwards without going into the teeter animation unless you held forwards.

Foxtrotting isn't that important, but dash dancing is really important as a function of the game. How it's important between characters varies. For Fox/Marth/Falcon, it can be used as a spacing tool. For Falco, a timing mixups between lasers.

JC grabbing is deceptively easy. For crouch canceling, it tends to be really % and spacing-based, so it's hard to explain all at once.

Using running shineturnaround bair isn't necessarily bad, but just recognize you won't always have the time for it. Nair suffices most of the time, and when you need vertical hitboxes, your fair covers that pretty well. Laser tech is just a matter of getting used to, as is getting used to Firebird.

For combos, n/dair, shine, and utilt are his main things, which lasers being how he tries to create openings that let him land those moves. Once you're in the combo is when he gets really interesting.

Not sure what you mean by jab locks, but I think you may mean jab resets (different terminology between games). Because of how the function works in Melee and due to Falco's ground speed, a low laser is his main option. What I like to do is follow up where they're gonna have to tech with a laser just in case they missed the tech. It's pretty nice.

Falco's throw options are tricky. The biggest thing with them is that grabbing makes it so your opponent wants to shield less a lot of the time, meaning you get easier combo starters. Against spacies, you can get bthrow regrabs if they DI in, which is really useful. Uthrow is generally what you wanna use, though, because if you read their DI a bit you can shine them for it. On floatier characters (marth/peach/puff?) you can uthrow fair sometimes. Other than that, fthrow if it will put them off the ledge. I personally enjoy Falco uthrow a lot and then prefer to just take stage positioning. Lemme link a few videos real quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpxR9WSUvwg&list=PLoU3TQBakHOp0LFIjbrfUA8ibLMx6dfWV SSBM-Tutorial's full Falco playlist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk food for thought for now until you're more comfortable, but this is important to keep in the back of your mind.

 

[Logan Terpening]

Thanks guys! Really appreciate all the tips you have given me!

 

[Krysco]

Lotsa text. You're very right about L-canceling, it's relatively simple. For wavedashing, though, a lot of it is preference and try not to overwhelm yourself as you're new to the game. For example, something you can do once you're more comfortable with general movement is dash -> wavedash, aka wavesurfing, for quicker grounded movement. And yeah, you can't wavedash or waveland forwards without going into the teeter animation unless you held forwards.

Foxtrotting isn't that important, but dash dancing is really important as a function of the game. How it's important between characters varies. For Fox/Marth/Falcon, it can be used as a spacing tool. For Falco, a timing mixups between lasers.

JC grabbing is deceptively easy. For crouch canceling, it tends to be really % and spacing-based, so it's hard to explain all at once.

Using running shineturnaround bair isn't necessarily bad, but just recognize you won't always have the time for it. Nair suffices most of the time, and when you need vertical hitboxes, your fair covers that pretty well. Laser tech is just a matter of getting used to, as is getting used to Firebird.

For combos, n/dair, shine, and utilt are his main things, which lasers being how he tries to create openings that let him land those moves. Once you're in the combo is when he gets really interesting.

Not sure what you mean by jab locks, but I think you may mean jab resets (different terminology between games). Because of how the function works in Melee and due to Falco's ground speed, a low laser is his main option. What I like to do is follow up where they're gonna have to tech with a laser just in case they missed the tech. It's pretty nice.

Falco's throw options are tricky. The biggest thing with them is that grabbing makes it so your opponent wants to shield less a lot of the time, meaning you get easier combo starters. Against spacies, you can get bthrow regrabs if they DI in, which is really useful. Uthrow is generally what you wanna use, though, because if you read their DI a bit you can shine them for it. On floatier characters (marth/peach/puff?) you can uthrow fair sometimes. Other than that, fthrow if it will put them off the ledge. I personally enjoy Falco uthrow a lot and then prefer to just take stage positioning. Lemme link a few videos real quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpxR9WSUvwg&list=PLoU3TQBakHOp0LFIjbrfUA8ibLMx6dfWV SSBM-Tutorial's full Falco playlist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk food for thought for now until you're more comfortable, but this is important to keep in the back of your mind.

Thanks! Checking out the videos right now. I'm glad I caught on to most of Falco's main combo tools before posting here. Haven't used nair too much so I'll have to change that. I did mean jab reset, used to the term jab lock since it's the one used in Brawl/Sm4sh. Managed to get jab1 to reset Fox on an FoD platform so that's an option too though I've noticed that at higher percents it pops characters up. Gonna have to wait till my sparring comes back from holidays before I can start making proper use of dash dancing since it doesn't mean much to ai. Another thing I've found from playing that I find pretty neat is going down through a platform and then bairing results in Falco landing back on the platform. If I could consistently do it, I could see about lcancelling it and using it to apply shield pressure or immediately start following up with lasers or something.

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks! Checking out the videos right now. I'm glad I caught on to most of Falco's main combo tools before posting here. Haven't used nair too much so I'll have to change that. I did mean jab reset, used to the term jab lock since it's the one used in Brawl/Sm4sh. Managed to get jab1 to reset Fox on an FoD platform so that's an option too though I've noticed that at higher percents it pops characters up. Gonna have to wait till my sparring comes back from holidays before I can start making proper use of dash dancing since it doesn't mean much to ai. Another thing I've found from playing that I find pretty neat is going down through a platform and then bairing results in Falco landing back on the platform. If I could consistently do it, I could see about lcancelling it and using it to apply shield pressure or immediately start following up with lasers or something.

The big thing that's useful with nair is that it has more range. It can be crouch canceled more, though, which is the drawback. You can also use it to mixup people who are trying to DI as though you're about to dair, which really helps sometimes. It's got a lot of nice usage on top of being safer on shield overall. And yeah, initial jab can jab reset, it's just hard to be spaced for something like that.

I understand your point about AIs not caring too much about your dash dancing, but you can always use it a little bit to alter your spacing and such. If you're playing on vanilla Melee, try dash dancing a little bit in front of a lvl6 Fox and they'll just do SH aerials in place and it's really funny.

The dropdown bair you refer to I believe is called a platform cancel bair. They've gotta be pretty fast, but it's definitely some pretty cool stuff. Not too many aerials can platform cancel, though, and it's gotta be really fast.

 

[duckypotato]

So what do all the Falcos in this thread think they themselves need to work on most right now? Like, analyzing their own play, what does everyone think their biggest impediment to a level up is atm?

My edgeguards suck, most notably versus Marth. I can get the combo but have trouble finishing the edgeguard if my combo doesnt end on a strong enough hit or spike.

On that note, anyone have any Marth edgeguarding tips? I usually just grab the ledge and try to roll up when they attempt a sweetspot. They usually delay and I roll up early. I feel like I should learn the Marth killer as a starting point.

 

[FE_Hector]

My edgeguards suck, most notably versus Marth. I can get the combo but have trouble finishing the edgeguard if my combo doesnt end on a strong enough hit or spike.

On that note, anyone have any Marth edgeguarding tips? I usually just grab the ledge and try to roll up when they attempt a sweetspot. They usually delay and I roll up early. I feel like I should learn the Marth killer as a starting point.

Marthkiller is a really good option. You can also WD off instant bair to catch them for coming too close to ledge. Refreshing invincibility a lot naturally helps. Marth's recovery looks so linear but is actually infuriating at times to edgeguard.

 

[MewtwoForce]

Thanks FE_Hector. It's good to know there is a reason behind why i'm going crazy trying to land consistent punishes on this fox.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how to brainstorm making a good punish game. If you guys know of anyway I can get a really solid fundamental understanding of maximizing my opportunities in the punish game let me know. I don't really know how to study the punish game.

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks FE_Hector. It's good to know there is a reason behind why i'm going crazy trying to land consistent punishes on this fox.

I'm trying to wrap my head around how to brainstorm making a good punish game. If you guys know of anyway I can get a really solid fundamental understanding of maximizing my opportunities in the punish game let me know. I don't really know how to study the punish game.

The vast majority of it revolves around watching. Observe how PPMD, Mang0, Westballz, and sometimes Zhu and other accomplished Falco's create their openings, and what they do with them. Maybe start with games against spacies on FD and see what happens with punishes there and then start looking at more matchups on varied stages. A lot of the allure to Falco combos is how much room there is for split-second innovation and stylish decision-making, so there's very little of it that's flowcharted out.

Also, just play around a bit on your own. Once you're comfortable with execution of a lot of stuff, then start putting random things together. Shine -> WD out fullhop fair vs low% Marth is something I personally enjoy that I think I came up with. It's a combination of normal shine combos and PPMDs uthrow -> fair. Little bits of innovation, ya know?

Generally speaking though, it would be really cool if Dr Peepee would be willing to contribute here again? I know I asked you before in the Marth thread, but what do you think about it now that you're feeling better?

 

[Klemes]

Generally speaking though, it would be really cool if Dr Peepee would be willing to contribute here again? I know I asked you before in the Marth thread, but what do you think about it now that you're feeling better?

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