PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[RedGamer]

Lol yeah. Remembering how fun falco is was my original goal by playing other characters too.

There's gonna be a monthly tournament this weekend and while I'll still play a lot for fun, this'll be my last time competing until I get my drive back if I ever. I'll be sure to get some dope stuff on stream for you guys.

 

[FE_Hector]

Lol yeah. Remembering how fun falco is was my original goal by playing other characters too.

There's gonna be a monthly tournament this weekend and while I'll still play a lot for fun, this'll be my last time competing until I get my drive back if I ever. I'll be sure to get some dope stuff on stream for you guys.

Sounds good. One thing I love to help keep myself motivated to get better is playing against players that just annihilate me. Obviously as you're getting better in your area it's harder to find people that can do that, but trying to learn the game is amazing. One way you might be able to accomplish that is just going to larger events. I know TX has some pretty big events now and then, so going to something like that and trying to get a few friendlies against top players or getting to them in bracket might be a good way to accomplish that. Having friends to help critique stuff etc is also great.

 

[Klemes]

Yo. I haven't posted on here in like 3 years lol.

I'm currently top 5 in my city and I "main" falco. I got good with falco and I put the most time into him, but lately competing hasn't been fun so I've switched to other characters in tournament to avoid becoming stale in my mentality.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is: what can i work on tightening to make my bird the word? Both in game (tech chasing, laser spacing, etc) and out (diet, mentality, discipline, etc)

In game.
Falco is a character that rewards patience, that is easy to forget when you think of the crazy pressure and combos everyone loves, but it's true. Wait / DD between lasers, see if your opponent commits to anything, space bairs when he's in the corner, dair in place when you think he's about to rush in etc.
The other thing you should value above everything else is center stage. When you have the stage, you have lasers, and you have patience, Falco is the boss. Every exchange is heavily in your favor : his ground movement is limited by lasers AND the corner, you have great zoning moves (utilt, ftilt, jab, bair, even nair/dair) and your godlike jumps let you hunt him wherever he jumps to.

So this is true vs fox falcon etc. And it is CRITICAL vs sheik marth peach etc. You forget about it = you lose, basically.
Not losing in tournament is nice generally, so I recommend you write it down, keep it in mind at all times when you're warming up in free play. Make this part of your identity. Get good at getting out of the corner and capitalize whenever you get center stage. And again : Patience = W.

Out.
I won't write about how to improve right now. This here is good stuff http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.fr/p/improved-drastic-improvement.html
Play better players, training routine, define objectives, analyse sets, write **** down etc.
I haven't read much on mentality specifically in tournament, but I would very much like to.

Diet.
Tested and approved :
- DO NOT eat junk food. Digesting fat and transformed food actually requires a lot of energy. You can feel heavy, your mind can be clouded or easily distracted.
What you need
-proteins. Ham, cold chicken
-vegetables so you're full but they're still light on your stomach. I like tomatoes, cucumber, paprika, carots
-fruits. vitamins and sugar, they energize you and boost your focus. Apples are top tier : easy to pack, nourishing
-snacks. twix kit-kat chocolate bars. you don't want to run out of availible sugar between meals.

 

[FE_Hector]

In game.
Falco is a character that rewards patience, that is easy to forget when you think of the crazy pressure and combos everyone loves, but it's true. Wait / DD between lasers, see if your opponent commits to anything, space bairs when he's in the corner, dair in place when you think he's about to rush in etc.
The other thing you should value above everything else is center stage. When you have the stage, you have lasers, and you have patience, Falco is the boss. Every exchange is heavily in your favor : his ground movement is limited by lasers AND the corner, you have great zoning moves (utilt, ftilt, jab, bair, even nair/dair) and your godlike jumps let you hunt him wherever he jumps to.

So this is true vs fox falcon etc. And it is CRITICAL vs sheik marth peach etc. You forget about it = you lose, basically.
Not losing in tournament is nice generally, so I recommend you write it down, keep it in mind at all times when you're warming up in free play. Make this part of your identity. Get good at getting out of the corner and capitalize whenever you get center stage. And again : Patience = W.

Out.
I won't write about how to improve right now. This here is good stuff http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.fr/p/improved-drastic-improvement.html
Play better players, training routine, define objectives, analyse sets, write **** down etc.
I haven't read much on mentality specifically in tournament, but I would very much like to.

Diet.
Tested and approved :
- DO NOT eat junk food. Digesting fat and transformed food actually requires a lot of energy. You can feel heavy, your mind can be clouded or easily distracted.
What you need
-proteins. Ham, cold chicken
-vegetables so you're full but they're still light on your stomach. I like tomatoes, cucumber, paprika, carots
-fruits. vitamins and sugar, they energize you and boost your focus. Apples are top tier : easy to pack, nourishing
-snacks. twix kit-kat chocolate bars. you don't want to run out of availible sugar between meals.

Just reading this reminded me: NEVER EVER underestimate water. Staying hydrated is super important, and if your opponent can't wait a few mins for you to pee between sets, then that's kinda ridiculous (esp at locals). Alternatively, if you're getting really nervous or sweat under pressure, Gatorade is pretty nice because it's got a bit of sugar, plenty of water, and stuff your body loses when you sweat to keep you going.

 

[Audos]

Just reading this reminded me: NEVER EVER underestimate water. Staying hydrated is super important, and if your opponent can't wait a few mins for you to pee between sets, then that's kinda ridiculous (esp at locals). Alternatively, if you're getting really nervous or sweat under pressure, Gatorade is pretty nice because it's got a bit of sugar, plenty of water, and stuff your body loses when you sweat to keep you going.

Being brutally honest I think hydration is overrated for competitive play. Yes, you don't want to be dehydrated, but if you aren't thirsty there isn't much drawback to not consuming water. If anything the jug of orange juice Armada carries sometimes, or even an energy drink is far more useful as it actually boosts energy level, and by extension focus, almost immediately after taking a few swigs. Physical activity puts your body in water retention mode, while I don't know whether or not the adrenaline and intense activity you get when you play in a stressful event will also cause that, it is still not important to hydrate too much. Your body will tell you when it is thirsty, and chugging out of habit or instinct when your body is trying to store water is actually bad for your health.

I like to carry a bottle of water with me all the time, I just don't run through it quickly.

 

[FE_Hector]

Being brutally honest I think hydration is overrated for competitive play. Yes, you don't want to be dehydrated, but if you aren't thirsty there isn't much drawback to not consuming water. If anything the jug of orange juice Armada carries sometimes, or even an energy drink is far more useful as it actually boosts energy level, and by extension focus, almost immediately after taking a few swigs. Physical activity puts your body in water retention mode, while I don't know whether or not the adrenaline and intense activity you get when you play in a stressful event will also cause that, it is still not important to hydrate too much. Your body will tell you when it is thirsty, and chugging out of habit or instinct when your body is trying to store water is actually bad for your health.

I like to carry a bottle of water with me all the time, I just don't run through it quickly.

Yeah, I was more thinking of the fact that a lot of people will play for a long period of time without thinking about eating or drinking, which isn't something that's good to forget. I may have overstated my point, though.

 

[WondrousMoose]

Being brutally honest I think hydration is overrated for competitive play. Yes, you don't want to be dehydrated, but if you aren't thirsty there isn't much drawback to not consuming water. If anything the jug of orange juice Armada carries sometimes, or even an energy drink is far more useful as it actually boosts energy level, and by extension focus, almost immediately after taking a few swigs. Physical activity puts your body in water retention mode, while I don't know whether or not the adrenaline and intense activity you get when you play in a stressful event will also cause that, it is still not important to hydrate too much. Your body will tell you when it is thirsty, and chugging out of habit or instinct when your body is trying to store water is actually bad for your health.

I like to carry a bottle of water with me all the time, I just don't run through it quickly.

Hydration is one of the most important factors of healthy living. It may not be important to you, but others should know how important it is.

 

[Zorcey]

The Falco board is kind of volatile.

 

[CP Adagio]

The Falco board is kind of volatile.

(Rant incoming)
I kind of like when we go off the rails on the Falco boards. Very few Falco players actually like talking about improving in ways other than "How do I do/when do I do this tech". I personally LOVE the marth boards because they talk about the theoretical aspect of the game. When you read what marth players write you can actually identify a human being behind the screen. I really like marth players for this reason. I still love the bird and many of the people who play him, and I love talking about tech skill. But it is refreshing to read long write ups on mentality and strategy as opposed to "Should I learn to quadruple shine or nah?"

 

[HDMN]

Being brutally honest I think hydration is overrated for competitive play. Yes, you don't want to be dehydrated, but if you aren't thirsty there isn't much drawback to not consuming water.

so true. and for people like me who has to go to the bathroom after each set its HUGE DRAWBACK

 

[FE_Hector]

The Falco board is kind of volatile.

Similar to what CP_Adagio said, it's quite honestly human nature. Falco is a more techskill-heavy character, which is often why we see questions regarding specific techskill, but there are multiple unique answers to almost every situation, and that's the fundamental idea behind different playstyles existing. Mew2King's Sheik likes to play reactions based and put himself into situations that are constantly 50-50 or outright in his favor. Plup's Sheik likes to use movement and reads way more aggressively and is okay taking a big bet for a big reward, which is why Plup tends to do better than M2K when he's down. Sometimes those plays are needed.

The lack of top active Falco's (Mango only plays him sometimes, PP MIA, and Zhu busy IRL) has left most people seeing a single playstyle of Falco: WBallz' max-techskill, high octane, read-heavy, punish-oriented Falco. There's nothing wrong with that, but it means that there's a general lack of patient Falco's for people to analyze. i'm not saying there's anything wrong withe either style, but only having had WBallz to analyze and learn Falco from for the last year and a half has left most people thinking that the character should be played roughly the same way.

The wealth of options that the Marth boards consistently mention come from an environment that has already identified that their character can play multiple roles and no one is objectively "better" than the other. On top of that, they have lots of footage of M2Ks Marth along with several other really good ones (Mango's random one, Colbol vs Fox, Moon, etc) to SHOW them what some playstyles and different types of options/combos for different situations look like. On top of this, I think that the Marth boards also have more mid-level players AND the resource of PPMD consistently answering their questions, which provides quite a lot of food for thought.

Finally, I also think that the reason that the Falco boards have less mid-level players is because of the difference in what the "average" player sees while watching Falco vs while watching Marth. This also does tie right back into the different playstyles thing, but even just looking at PPMD there's an interesting difference. Immediately looking at PPMDs Marth (commentary strengthens this), you see that he's really patient and does a LOT of work conditioning his opponents with dtilts and dash dances with extremely intentional purpose in how they threaten the opponent and make them think he's going to approach. If you just watch his Falco, however, most spectators are gonna see a little bit of DDing, lots of lasers, and big punishes off of one aerial -> shine. As a result of this, most Marth's are going to have more intentional movement and move choices than Falco's are. I do think that unintentional bias towards a certain character throughout the community that creeps over into commentary is a factor in this, but there's definitely a lot more to Falco than what commentators make it sound like.

DISCLAIMER: I will be the first to admit that I'm actually not that great of a player when you meet me. I simply have a lot of time to think about and watch the game, but minimal time to play. This is all my own observations and extrapolation, so I don't want people taking it as law. That kinda goes against everything that I said before. I'm only adding this because I recently realize how authoritatively I can give advice and make statements, so I needed to make this abundantly clear.

 

[Audos]

Hydration is one of the most important factors of healthy living. It may not be important to you, but others should know how important it is.

I think you misunderstood my post. XD
I said not to over hydrate because of scientifically identified reasons. Like I said at the end it is important to still carry water, just don't overdue it as there are health factors that could hurt you, and at the very least isn't helping you much. I know a majority of people mean well when they recommend drinking a ton of water all the time, but you should only drink enough to avoid signs of dehydration. The concept of drinking tons of water is only really a thing because marketing and unreputable sources pushed for higher sales of bottled water. Not trying to say anything about how much I value water, I'm only talking about the actual health benefits of it.

 

[Audos]

Similar to what CP_Adagio said, it's quite honestly human nature. Falco is a more techskill-heavy character, which is often why we see questions regarding specific techskill, but there are multiple unique answers to almost every situation, and that's the fundamental idea behind different playstyles existing. Mew2King's Sheik likes to play reactions based and put himself into situations that are constantly 50-50 or outright in his favor. Plup's Sheik likes to use movement and reads way more aggressively and is okay taking a big bet for a big reward, which is why Plup tends to do better than M2K when he's down. Sometimes those plays are needed.

The lack of top active Falco's (Mango only plays him sometimes, PP MIA, and Zhu busy IRL) has left most people seeing a single playstyle of Falco: WBallz' max-techskill, high octane, read-heavy, punish-oriented Falco. There's nothing wrong with that, but it means that there's a general lack of patient Falco's for people to analyze. i'm not saying there's anything wrong withe either style, but only having had WBallz to analyze and learn Falco from for the last year and a half has left most people thinking that the character should be played roughly the same way.

The wealth of options that the Marth boards consistently mention come from an environment that has already identified that their character can play multiple roles and no one is objectively "better" than the other. On top of that, they have lots of footage of M2Ks Marth along with several other really good ones (Mango's random one, Colbol vs Fox, Moon, etc) to SHOW them what some playstyles and different types of options/combos for different situations look like. On top of this, I think that the Marth boards also have more mid-level players AND the resource of PPMD consistently answering their questions, which provides quite a lot of food for thought.

Finally, I also think that the reason that the Falco boards have less mid-level players is because of the difference in what the "average" player sees while watching Falco vs while watching Marth. This also does tie right back into the different playstyles thing, but even just looking at PPMD there's an interesting difference. Immediately looking at PPMDs Marth (commentary strengthens this), you see that he's really patient and does a LOT of work conditioning his opponents with dtilts and dash dances with extremely intentional purpose in how they threaten the opponent and make them think he's going to approach. If you just watch his Falco, however, most spectators are gonna see a little bit of DDing, lots of lasers, and big punishes off of one aerial -> shine. As a result of this, most Marth's are going to have more intentional movement and move choices than Falco's are. I do think that unintentional bias towards a certain character throughout the community that creeps over into commentary is a factor in this, but there's definitely a lot more to Falco than what commentators make it sound like.

DISCLAIMER: I will be the first to admit that I'm actually not that great of a player when you meet me. I simply have a lot of time to think about and watch the game, but minimal time to play. This is all my own observations and extrapolation, so I don't want people taking it as law. That kinda goes against everything that I said before. I'm only adding this because I recently realize how authoritatively I can give advice and make statements, so I needed to make this abundantly clear.

This has honestly been a big problem for the bird considering how incredibly diverse the character has the potential to be. There are so many dials of marth players and fox players to view from, and very little for falco at top level. To say it isn't affecting the scene at all would be crazy, and it is probably the main reason the community thinks falco is dying. Even so if the community brings in lower level players to our boards it is really our job to help them become better players as other falco mains, at least as a collective. I'm really looking forward to PPMD returning, but honestly you can still gain a ton from watching the way old PP played. He does play differently now, after all. Although I think that could mainly be due to his health condition, his style of play being less and less about discipline and control and more about creative movement and conditioning could easilly be attributed to a lack of focus over a long period of time. I personally think it has more to do with his increasing involvement with the players of melee and his use of marth affecting the way he wants to play neutral, but I could be wrong and he might have entirely different reasons for it. Either way there is a strong chance no falco's, even PP coming back, will play the same way he did in 2012-2013, so there is still a ton to learn if we want to crack the bird's potential.

 

[CP Adagio]

This has honestly been a big problem for the bird considering how incredibly diverse the character has the potential to be. There are so many dials of marth players and fox players to view from, and very little for falco at top level. To say it isn't affecting the scene at all would be crazy, and it is probably the main reason the community thinks falco is dying. Even so if the community brings in lower level players to our boards it is really our job to help them become better players as other falco mains, at least as a collective. I'm really looking forward to PPMD returning, but honestly you can still gain a ton from watching the way old PP played. He does play differently now, after all. Although I think that could mainly be due to his health condition, his style of play being less and less about discipline and control and more about creative movement and conditioning could easilly be attributed to a lack of focus over a long period of time. I personally think it has more to do with his increasing involvement with the players of melee and his use of marth affecting the way he wants to play neutral, but I could be wrong and he might have entirely different reasons for it. Either way there is a strong chance no falco's, even PP coming back, will play the same way he did in 2012-2013, so there is still a ton to learn if we want to crack the bird's potential.

Agreed. I really feel that if someone is looking to learn from watching a top level Falco, old PPMD offers the most to analyze. Before I go to tournaments I love to watch some of PPs best sets and see if I can pick apart what makes his neutral tick. The way he moves, controls space, and edgeguards makes it hard to NOT take something away from viewing his play. It's not like he keeps all this a secret, either. If I have any advice to new Falco mains it would be to take some hours to look back through this board and see the knowledge that PP has shared. That said, I really wish PP were as active on these boards as he is on the marth boards. Maybe I'll think of some Falco questions for him to answer on this board...

 

[FE_Hector]

Agreed. I really feel that if someone is looking to learn from watching a top level Falco, old PPMD offers the most to analyze. Before I go to tournaments I love to watch some of PPs best sets and see if I can pick apart what makes his neutral tick. The way he moves, controls space, and edgeguards makes it hard to NOT take something away from viewing his play. It's not like he keeps all this a secret, either. If I have any advice to new Falco mains it would be to take some hours to look back through this board and see the knowledge that PP has shared. That said, I really wish PP were as active on these boards as he is on the marth boards. Maybe I'll think of some Falco questions for him to answer on this board...

The last time I asked him why he doesn't really post in here is because he doesn't feel he could control this thread as easily. It's entirely possible that, seeing as he's been getting a lot more energy and focus recently, he'll start replying in here if we start tagging him again. I still follow that one Marth board discussion because it's amazing thinking about how he views the game.

 

[Audos]

The last time I asked him why he doesn't really post in here is because he doesn't feel he could control this thread as easily. It's entirely possible that, seeing as he's been getting a lot more energy and focus recently, he'll start replying in here if we start tagging him again. I still follow that one Marth board discussion because it's amazing thinking about how he views the game.

That's pretty useful to know. I hope he comes back for the sake of everyone, but if he is any bit like me then I think I can see his reasoning to staying on the marth boards. A huge part of the conversation online centers around helping other people realize new ideas or you yourself learning new ideas to work into your game, but just as much as that there is organizing your own thoughts. The more you talk and express your opinions in an engaging way the more likely you are to stick to them in the game, to remember how you want to play. Players like mang0 are incredible because they can't describe how they play very well, but neither can anybody else. More controlled players tend to have a greater hold on organized thought, players like PP, armada, or druggedfox to name a few. I think if you value consistency you have to value breaking down your own thoughts and reinforcing them, something that is really easy to do if you are constantly helping others work out how to deal with their issues that you have overcome.

PP has once said that he thinks marth is easier as a character to cover yourself with, that falco requires so much focus, reflexes, and constant thought to play where as marth can play neutral in a slightly more 1-player fashion. I mean I'm sure that he puts a lot of thought into his marth, but I also think that he considers it harder to keep track of everything he does with falco. His marth is interesting and creative in neutral, but it relies on simple concepts pushed to their fullest potential with more room for error. Falco never really works like that and is much harder to organize thoughts on.

tl;dr: The falcoboards probably don't need controlled better, falco is just harder to explain to somebody trying to learn than marth. Less stressful overall.

 

[Klemes]

(Rant incoming)
I kind of like when we go off the rails on the Falco boards. Very few Falco players actually like talking about improving in ways other than "How do I do/when do I do this tech". I personally LOVE the marth boards because they talk about the theoretical aspect of the game. When you read what marth players write you can actually identify a human being behind the screen. I really like marth players for this reason. I still love the bird and many of the people who play him, and I love talking about tech skill. But it is refreshing to read long write ups on mentality and strategy as opposed to "Should I learn to quadruple shine or nah?"

To answer your question, quad-shine is not optimal frame-data wise. The third shine gets stale and lets the opponent escape, even when frame perfect. So while double shine is the best close-quarter tool in the game (arguably better than fox since falco's shine does 1 more frame of shieldstun for 2 more frames of jumpsquat BUT does more shield damage, allowing for heavier pressure and easier pokes) you should preferably follow it up with one of few options such as :

1. grab. options = covered, you cannot get punished for a frame perfect dub-shine grab, by any character in the game.
2. nair/dair fadeback. very good chance to poke vs M&Ms shield + he shouldn't DI well, retain stage positioning when he's in the corner. When spaced correctly you will be safe, and it can trigger a shieldgrab out of him (or some other OoS) you can punish with fsmash (or dair to start combo at low% / double dip)
3 crouch / shield. when he has his back against you, punish OoS option, jump, roll in (even roll away with jump>fantasm !), throw him off-guard or simply delay then shine.

On the other hand, quadshine will get you all the ladies in the room. So tough option select for sure.

Well, I hope you got what you came for, feel free to ask about anything. Have a good day on the Falco Boards !

 

[FE_Hector]

On the other hand, quadshine will get you all the ladies in the room. So tough option select for sure.

Yep, both of them.

 

[Zorcey]

So I'm a Marth main who's fairly new to Falco, and I'm trying to determine exactly how I want to play the character. Assuming I have all my tech skill in order (SHL, shine OoS, shinegrabs, out of shine movement, etc.), what kind of situation am I looking to achieve from the neutral? I understand there's a combination of DD and SHL to be used to wall out/approach the opponent, but ideally, what do I want my Advantage state to look like before I start my combo? Is it just simple things like shinegrab on shield or aerial -> shine not on shield, or is it more complex than that? Falco has such crazy organic combos, but I'm not sure about how dynamic his neutral game is, and have been wanting to analyze it.

Also if someone could give me explanations/tips/links on ledge options like ledgedashing and lasers from the edge that'd be helpful too lol.

 

[Audos]

So I'm a Marth main who's fairly new to Falco, and I'm trying to determine exactly how I want to play the character. Assuming I have all my tech skill in order (SHL, shine OoS, shinegrabs, out of shine movement, etc.), what kind of situation am I looking to achieve from the neutral? I understand there's a combination of DD and SHL to be used to wall out/approach the opponent, but ideally, what do I want my Advantage state to look like before I start my combo? Is it just simple things like shinegrab on shield or aerial -> shine not on shield, or is it more complex than that? Falco has such crazy organic combos, but I'm not sure about how dynamic his neutral game is, and have been wanting to analyze it.

Also if someone could give me explanations/tips/links on ledge options like ledgedashing and lasers from the edge that'd be helpful too lol.

Falco thrives on his ability to lock the opponent down in neutral, He doesn't have amazing mobility but he has an extremely threatening bair and up tilt making the opponent fear closing in without a calculated approach. Not only that his lasers are great for discouraging different approaches. Ideally you want to put the opponent in positions where you can tell exactly where they will move by experimenting with different walling and lock down tactics then reading how they want to escape them. You can also just stop their movement entirely which is what a majority of new falco players focus on despite it being an unreasonable goal on players as they get better and better at dealing with lasers. The methods you use to limit the opponents options will vary heavily depending on the match up you are playing because your individual tools work differently against different characters. Falcon for example has a very hard time moving under higher lasers and most of his approaches require start up on ariels, so a majority of the time you won't be shooting low lasers and will be abusing up tilt. Then there are characters like marth that can weave under almost all high lasers and try to grab you but don't do too well once you force them off the ground in uncomfortable ways.

Also for ledge options I'd make sure you practice the ledge dash options after you sweetspot with a recovery move. Practice more than just WD grab edge to ledge dash, practice how you would actually use it mid game. Here is some of falco's invincible options: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yXUJ-q2P9c
This is also a great video to help understand other methods: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPnrEd1z2XQ

 

[Audos]

I was recently in a pretty in depth discussion over on the Falco Discord group. We were discussing the faox and falco match-up, more specifically the concept of stage control. One of us though that falco is more advantageous in a position under the side platform. They thought that falco's mostly immobile walling tools and threatening punish game made the side platform a safe area for falco to successfully set the pace of the game while fox was too easily able to set the position. They said that taking center stage was risky at best due to fox's great options from the corner as well as his amazing vertical approaches that work more effectively when falco is not under side platform. The other person thought that falco should value center stage, saying that his approaches taht don't normally cover enough space to be effective become much more effective at finding openings when the fox has less room to work with. He said that the position fox is in makes falco's punishes even more potent due to the fox being near the edge and that while fox's vertical options are strong, falco can react to fox changing vertical zones or preemptively snuff the attempt.

I'm not going to say which person I agreed with more, instead I'd like to see what the falco players frequenting the forum think. Should falco value center stage if given to him or is his optimal stage position innately immobile and defensive? I'm really interested in what individual players think so feel free to give any insight on the topic big or small. :D

 

[Sprenzy]

I was recently in a pretty in depth discussion over on the Falco Discord group. We were discussing the faox and falco match-up, more specifically the concept of stage control. One of us though that falco is more advantageous in a position under the side platform. They thought that falco's mostly immobile walling tools and threatening punish game made the side platform a safe area for falco to successfully set the pace of the game while fox was too easily able to set the position. They said that taking center stage was risky at best due to fox's great options from the corner as well as his amazing vertical approaches that work more effectively when falco is not under side platform. The other person thought that falco should value center stage, saying that his approaches taht don't normally cover enough space to be effective become much more effective at finding openings when the fox has less room to work with. He said that the position fox is in makes falco's punishes even more potent due to the fox being near the edge and that while fox's vertical options are strong, falco can react to fox changing vertical zones or preemptively snuff the attempt.

I'm not going to say which person I agreed with more, instead I'd like to see what the falco players frequenting the forum think. Should falco value center stage if given to him or is his optimal stage position innately immobile and defensive? I'm really interested in what individual players think so feel free to give any insight on the topic big or small. :D

hey can I join ur falco group?

 

[CP Adagio]

So I'm a Marth main who's fairly new to Falco, and I'm trying to determine exactly how I want to play the character. Assuming I have all my tech skill in order (SHL, shine OoS, shinegrabs, out of shine movement, etc.), what kind of situation am I looking to achieve from the neutral? I understand there's a combination of DD and SHL to be used to wall out/approach the opponent, but ideally, what do I want my Advantage state to look like before I start my combo? Is it just simple things like shinegrab on shield or aerial -> shine not on shield, or is it more complex than that? Falco has such crazy organic combos, but I'm not sure about how dynamic his neutral game is, and have been wanting to analyze it.

Also if someone could give me explanations/tips/links on ledge options like ledgedashing and lasers from the edge that'd be helpful too lol.

I was recently in a pretty in depth discussion over on the Falco Discord group. We were discussing the faox and falco match-up, more specifically the concept of stage control. One of us though that falco is more advantageous in a position under the side platform. They thought that falco's mostly immobile walling tools and threatening punish game made the side platform a safe area for falco to successfully set the pace of the game while fox was too easily able to set the position. They said that taking center stage was risky at best due to fox's great options from the corner as well as his amazing vertical approaches that work more effectively when falco is not under side platform. The other person thought that falco should value center stage, saying that his approaches taht don't normally cover enough space to be effective become much more effective at finding openings when the fox has less room to work with. He said that the position fox is in makes falco's punishes even more potent due to the fox being near the edge and that while fox's vertical options are strong, falco can react to fox changing vertical zones or preemptively snuff the attempt.

I'm not going to say which person I agreed with more, instead I'd like to see what the falco players frequenting the forum think. Should falco value center stage if given to him or is his optimal stage position innately immobile and defensive? I'm really interested in what individual players think so feel free to give any insight on the topic big or small. :D

I personally love to be under the side platform vs fox. You have room to shoot lasers and feint an advance while forcing the fox to commit to an approach or continue taking damage. And if they try to approach then you'll see them coming, forcing them to work around Bair/Up tilt

 

[FE_Hector]

hey can I join ur falco group?

http://bit.do/20yys
I'm one of the OG members, but schools been bogging me down so I haven't been on. There's still a ton of other people in there tho.

 

[Bones0]

To answer your question, quad-shine is not optimal frame-data wise. The third shine gets stale and lets the opponent escape, even when frame perfect. So while double shine is the best close-quarter tool in the game (arguably better than fox since falco's shine does 1 more frame of shieldstun for 2 more frames of jumpsquat BUT does more shield damage, allowing for heavier pressure and easier pokes) you should preferably follow it up with one of few options such as :

1. grab. options = covered, you cannot get punished for a frame perfect dub-shine grab, by any character in the game.
2. nair/dair fadeback. very good chance to poke vs M&Ms shield + he shouldn't DI well, retain stage positioning when he's in the corner. When spaced correctly you will be safe, and it can trigger a shieldgrab out of him (or some other OoS) you can punish with fsmash (or dair to start combo at low% / double dip)
3 crouch / shield. when he has his back against you, punish OoS option, jump, roll in (even roll away with jump>fantasm !), throw him off-guard or simply delay then shine.

On the other hand, quadshine will get you all the ladies in the room. So tough option select for sure.

Well, I hope you got what you came for, feel free to ask about anything. Have a good day on the Falco Boards !

Shine doesn't stale if it hits a shield. You won't hit a roll attempt anyway unless you do a perfect double shine and your shine wasn't stale and even then I think sometimes their roll animation will cause them to dodge Falco's tiny shine hitbox.

With regards to #1, you can absolutely be punished. Roll and spotdodge both avoid a perfect shinegrab, let alone one done after a double shine which is even slower. Spotdodge easily leads to quick counterattacks, and roll is invul frame 4 which means any OoS option that hits sooner (or is invincible) will beat shinegrab. That includes Fox shine OoS and up-B OoS for Peach, Samus, Doc, Mario, and Bowser. I think Marth's and Luigi's up-B might be fast enough to beat double shine grab, but I'd have to check. Also, going back to what I said above, if they roll between your shines because you weren't frame perfect/unstaled, then they can punish you.

 

[Klemes]

Shine doesn't stale if it hits a shield. You won't hit a roll attempt anyway unless you do a perfect double shine and your shine wasn't stale and even then I think sometimes their roll animation will cause them to dodge Falco's tiny shine hitbox.

With regards to #1, you can absolutely be punished. Roll and spotdodge both avoid a perfect shinegrab, let alone one done after a double shine which is even slower. Spotdodge easily leads to quick counterattacks, and roll is invul frame 4 which means any OoS option that hits sooner (or is invincible) will beat shinegrab. That includes Fox shine OoS and up-B OoS for Peach, Samus, Doc, Mario, and Bowser. I think Marth's and Luigi's up-B might be fast enough to beat double shine grab, but I'd have to check. Also, going back to what I said above, if they roll between your shines because you weren't frame perfect/unstaled, then they can punish you.

Thanks a lot bones. You rule these boards. I'll try not to talk about things I don't know anyhing about next time.

While you're here, I was hoping you could answer a few questions.

1. fox
- I hold down a lot, and often happen to CC fox shine and tank it without getting knocked-down. But not all the time though, so shine has set KB, which led me to wonder what other factors were in play. Am I late to CC sometimes since shine is so fast, does CC work exactly the same way when I'm in hitstun (nair>shine), Is there a difference when fox is airborne, some involuntary ASDI ...

- How exactly should I deal with drill>shine and drill>grab ? 1/4 circle SDI down>away ? Can I CC shine if he's not perfect ? Is there a difference between high drill and late drill ?

2. marth
- How to not get hit by uthrow>tipper, are there any good reads on the subject ? I know full DI away at +60% gets me killed every time, but I haven't figured out how to escape / force another less brutal punish.

- How to make the low% chaingrab harder for marth (after the 0% DI behind)
- What do you do to escape after fthrow under 9% ? I get regrabed / dtilt in the corner a lot, and also get punished after buffer spotdodge / roll in.
- before utilt% I mix up no DI, slight DI behind and DI up > drift behind. I buffer tech in place, and try to shine ASAP at +20%. Am I doing this right ?
- I SDI utilt away, but should I DI the uthrow to get hit by a specific part of the utilt ?

Also I'm thinking hard about tech chasing with Falco. I have a few ideas, but It's hard to piece together honestly. Do you recall some posts / discussions on the subject I could try and dig out ? Anyway I'll probably come back here with what I've come up with once I've done my homework.

 

[tauKhan]

1. fox
- I hold down a lot, and often happen to CC fox shine and tank it without getting knocked-down. But not all the time though, so shine has set KB, which led me to wonder what other factors were in play. Am I late to CC sometimes since shine is so fast, does CC work exactly the same way when I'm in hitstun (nair>shine), Is there a difference when fox is airborne, some involuntary ASDI ...

- How exactly should I deal with drill>shine and drill>grab ? 1/4 circle SDI down>away ? Can I CC shine if he's not perfect ? Is there a difference between high drill and late drill ?

2. marth

- How to make the low% chaingrab harder for marth (after the 0% DI behind)?

1) Crouch kb reduction prevents the knockdown, there's no other factors. You have to be actually crouching, ASDI down does nothing vs shine. If you're in hitstun, you can't crouch ofc. Fox has hefty advantage after the shine even if you crouch it, since the shine spikes and it won't get ASDI down canceled ever. Lot of the time they won't react fast enough since they were expecting knockdown though.

Drill is only +7 vs falco, so drill grab barely even works, and it's borderline impossible to combo consistently. Against fox who drill grabs a lot, try to [A]SDI behind him and shine/spotdodge. You can try both shine and spotdodge at the same time, so that if your shine input was early, you'll still have a chance of spotdodging. Against drill shine the only thing you can really attempt is SDI out of shine range. My preferred SDI method for that is smash stick slightly below horizontal cardinal direction (at least 17 degrees below). Then roll the stick from there to the other side of that horizontal direction. That way you get 2 attempts of almost horizontal SDI inputs.

2) Try to DI the uthrow very slightly behind so that it's hard for the Marth to see which direction he needs to grab you. Marth's grab box doesn't hit close to his body, and often there's very close DI values where the Marth has to turn with very slightly stronger DI, but needs to not turn with the weaker DI. If you hit your DI close enough to the transition point, Marth has to basically guess whether to turn or not.

 

[CP Adagio]

1) Crouch kb reduction prevents the knockdown, there's no other factors. You have to be actually crouching, ASDI down does nothing vs shine. If you're in hitstun, you can't crouch ofc. Fox has hefty advantage after the shine even if you crouch it, since the shine spikes and it won't get ASDI down canceled ever. Lot of the time they won't react fast enough since they were expecting knockdown though.

Drill is only +7 vs falco, so drill grab barely even works, and it's borderline impossible to combo consistently. Against fox who drill grabs a lot, try to [A]SDI behind him and shine/spotdodge. You can try both shine and spotdodge at the same time, so that if your shine input was early, you'll still have a chance of spotdodging. Against drill shine the only thing you can really attempt is SDI out of shine range. My preferred SDI method for that is smash stick slightly below horizontal cardinal direction (at least 17 degrees below). Then roll the stick from there to the other side of that horizontal direction. That way you get 2 attempts of almost horizontal SDI inputs.

2) Try to DI the uthrow very slightly behind so that it's hard for the Marth to see which direction he needs to grab you. Marth's grab box doesn't hit close to his body, and often there's very close DI values where the Marth has to turn with very slightly stronger DI, but needs to not turn with the weaker DI. If you hit your DI close enough to the transition point, Marth has to basically guess whether to turn or not.

Yes and no. If I'm chain grabbing a Falco I can just pivot grab if they slight DI behind and I'm not sure which way to turn. You should still slight DI behind because pivot grabs are tough to hit consistently for them, but know that they don't have to guess

 

[tauKhan]

Yes and no. If I'm chain grabbing a Falco I can just pivot grab if they slight DI behind and I'm not sure which way to turn. You should still slight DI behind because pivot grabs are tough to hit consistently for them, but know that they don't have to guess

Yeah, pivot grab can cover more, but you won't have time for that very low%. Frame tight pivot grabs are tough to perform as well.

 

[squirrels4ev]

Could anyone give me some rough estimates of the percents at which strong dair knocks down falco, falcon, marth, sheik, and peach when you hit them while they're airborne? Also, does the length of their tumble affect if they will be knocked down or not? Do they get knocked down earlier if they are closer to the ground (but not grounded/ccing) when you hit them?

I watched Kira's how to combo fast fallers with falco video and getting the knowledge that fox gets knocked down at or before 38% by dair was really helpful for me to formulate a more cohesive plan for what I'm looking for during combos. Would be nice to know percents for other common characters. I'm most interested in Marth since both my roommates play him

 

[FE_Hector]

Could anyone give me some rough estimates of the percents at which strong dair knocks down falco, falcon, marth, sheik, and peach when you hit them while they're airborne? Also, does the length of their tumble affect if they will be knocked down or not? Do they get knocked down earlier if they are closer to the ground (but not grounded/ccing) when you hit them?

I watched Kira's how to combo fast fallers with falco video and getting the knowledge that fox gets knocked down at or before 38% by dair was really helpful for me to formulate a more cohesive plan for what I'm looking for during combos. Would be nice to know percents for other common characters. I'm most interested in Marth since both my roommates play him

First off, the 38% stat is for an unstaled dair. If you were comboing with dairshines, then it's gonna be more like 45%ish. Same goes with Falco and is about what I look for against Falcon. Against Marth and Sheik I think it's a bit higher (probably 50-55), and is roughly the same for Peach. 50% just tends to be the threshold. If you're in tumble animation, you're gonna have the chance to tech. You CAN wiggle your stick and get back into an upright position ONCE you're out of hitstun, which is nice for waveland mixups.

As far as the Marth MU goes, just know that without plats, Marth can easily jump out of low% pillars and entirely mess up your combo. If you catch his jump, though, he's closer to helpless. One thing I've been testing out on FD recently is dair -> shine -> WD appropriately -> FH fair. Similar concept to PPs uthrow fair, but you don't have to worry about SDI vs lasers and can theoretically get better stage positioning and get them to mid% where you can more freely combo him way faster.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Shine doesn't stale if it hits a shield. You won't hit a roll attempt anyway unless you do a perfect double shine and your shine wasn't stale and even then I think sometimes their roll animation will cause them to dodge Falco's tiny shine hitbox.

With regards to #1, you can absolutely be punished. Roll and spotdodge both avoid a perfect shinegrab, let alone one done after a double shine which is even slower. Spotdodge easily leads to quick counterattacks, and roll is invul frame 4 which means any OoS option that hits sooner (or is invincible) will beat shinegrab. That includes Fox shine OoS and up-B OoS for Peach, Samus, Doc, Mario, and Bowser. I think Marth's and Luigi's up-B might be fast enough to beat double shine grab, but I'd have to check. Also, going back to what I said above, if they roll between your shines because you weren't frame perfect/unstaled, then they can punish you.

I remember seeing a Gif a while ago of Marth being able to Up-B out of Fox's Shine Grab but not Falco's Shice Grab which makes sense

 

[Klemes]

I remember seeing a Gif a while ago of Marth being able to Up-B out of Fox's Shine Grab but not Falco's Shice Grab which makes sense

Yo Frenzy ! We played friendlies at Syndicate, good to see you here man.

 

[tauKhan]

Could anyone give me some rough estimates of the percents at which strong dair knocks down falco, falcon, marth, sheik, and peach when you hit them while they're airborne?

Following percents are pre-hit: fox at 35%, falco 36%, marth 38%, falcon 43%, peach 39%, sheik 39%. If staled, it's usually around 2% more.

If you want to find out more stuff like that in the future, use the calculator.

First off, the 38% stat is for an unstaled dair. If you were comboing with dairshines, then it's gonna be more like 45%ish.

Dair can't even stale 7% in damage, that's way too high leap in percents.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dair can't even stale 7% in damage, that's way too high leap in percents.

IDK, it definitely doesn't feel like it knocks down before 40% ever. I might be remembering something wrong though

 

[tauKhan]

IDK, it definitely doesn't feel like it knocks down before 40% ever. I might be remembering something wrong though

Maybe you're thinking post-hit percents? I specified before hit in my post. I don't know what the 38% mentioned for fox was supposed to be, since it fits neither.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Yo Frenzy ! We played friendlies at Syndicate, good to see you here man.

I didn't go to Syndicate haha, maybe you are confusing it with Heir 3 or Beast 6?

 

[Klemes]

I didn't go to Syndicate haha, maybe you are confusing it with Heir 3 or Beast 6?

Whoops. I must have lost my mind then. my B

 

[Zorcey]

So what do all the Falcos in this thread think they themselves need to work on most right now? Like, analyzing their own play, what does everyone think their biggest impediment to a level up is atm?

 

[FE_Hector]

So what do all the Falcos in this thread think they themselves need to work on most right now? Like, analyzing their own play, what does everyone think their biggest impediment to a level up is atm?

First off, I really like this question. I think I've got two big things I need to work on right now.

1.) (Hopefully this will change next semester) but as it stands right now I don't feel I get that much practice vs other people. The problem with this mostly arises in when I try to play friendlies/bracket. Feels like my techskill is only around 75% during these and I drop some really crucial combos/kills on account of it. Would've forced one of the better players at my college to switch off of Fox to Marth if not for 2 crucial techskill errors.

2.) Starting Friday, I intend to start doing what Mango suggested and lasering to determine what your opponents gonna do. I'm REALLY gonna focus on lasering and saying "okay, well they just did X" and figuring out a counter to it.

Also apparently I needa grab more so I'm working on implementation of that.