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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Frenzy231199
Smash Cadet
https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/3eexme/a_falco_compendium/
Learn all the things listed here, but I would prioritize Laser Tech, Shortening Side B, and Movement first as these will have the biggest immediate impact on your play and you will see results quicker
SSS
Smash Ace
here's a gucci soundfile i made for getting shortest possible laser
https://musescore.com/user/21454/scores/1951926
BirdmanJR
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
- Messages
- 31
Where can I find the frame data of how much stun etc. lasers have. No matter what I do I feel like I have little understanding of how they work and when you get hit when you try to counter attack oos and I dont know how to learn this I feel like if someone has me locked with lasers its a complete crapshoot whether my aerial or shine oos hits them when they approach
I even play falco but I just dont get this portion of the game
I even play falco but I just dont get this portion of the game
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
The way I generally think of lasers is that you've got 4 frames hitlag + 8 frames hitstun. Because it's a projectile, you don't have to deal with hitlag directly, but you still have 4 frames landlag. So basically, if your laser hits your opponent on the same frame you land, you're +8. This makes laser -> shine and laser -> grab quite reliable. However, it does mean that it's VERY rare you'll get that extra frame where you're +9 and as such can true combo with an aerial. The fastest n/bair possible is frame 9, and dair is a bit slower.
The general purpose behind getting openings off of them is basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRa7249dBWk
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure that shieldstun is calculated differently, and I can't really remember that data, but I do remember that a good laser -> grab is SUUUUUUUPER good vs most shields, so yeah. What you can do, though, against a lasering falco approaching your shield, is roll out as he's about to set up that last laser or aerial. Gives you a lot of freedom to escape laser pressure.
If the laser is staled at all, it only does 5 frames of hitlag + hitstun, so a lot of options will beat laser grab on shield if you act quick. Completely unstaled it does 7 frames of lag, which is equal to the lag on crouching opponent. I think it's legit strategy to take one laser from far away to lessen the lag from following lasers.
BirdmanJR
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
- Messages
- 31
can someone explain to me what the mixups were exactly in this insane mango combo ?
https://youtu.be/DU0MNs2D7sQ?t=113
why would smash DIing the downtilt away pop you up like you DId a move in ?
https://youtu.be/DU0MNs2D7sQ?t=113
why would smash DIing the downtilt away pop you up like you DId a move in ?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I tried to take a look at Plup's left hand while he was getting combo'd, and I think that he was holding in, not SDIing out.
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
Hello, I wanted to express myself about Falco and I think that WestBallz placed Falco on the SS Tier with his acts.
I think that WestBallz exploited Falco's truth potential, he lastly defeated Leffen's and Mango's Fox 3-1
Btw, i don't know how to change my avatar, can someone help me?
I think that WestBallz exploited Falco's truth potential, he lastly defeated Leffen's and Mango's Fox 3-1
Btw, i don't know how to change my avatar, can someone help me?
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I think that WBallz has done a lot by way of innovation of combo game vs fast fallers and has helped to show us how flowcharted his combos can be overall, but WBallz himself needs a LOT more patience and the ability to create openings better and rely a bit less on reads before he can really break into the tip-top echelon of play and actually gain consistency vs floaty characters. PPMDs Falco is the truth, tho.
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BirdmanJR
Smash Cadet
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- May 1, 2015
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that makes more sense
Vish said that it was a DI trap because he was Ding the nair out which made no sense to me i guess he was just wrong/mispoke ?
Seems like incorrect info from the commentator.
IMO it is still a DI mixup and still very clever, though. When you get naired like that, f-smash is a common follow-up. However, it goes deeper. Since he DI'd that nair so well, a shine couldn't even hit him. I guess Plup thought he was safe with survival DI against the f-smash but Mango used d-tilt to reach him instead, and you need to keep DI'ing out against that.
Basically, you can nair -> f-smash or nair -> d-tilt and the DI on the f-smash and d-tilt is a 50-50, and you only don't end up dead immediately if you guess the 50-50 correctly. You're off stage either way lol.
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
WestBallZ is by far the best Falco imo, his aggressive style is unbreakable and he started to awaken his truth potential, to open unknown doors by Falco, PPMDs Falco applies faking methods combined with a defensive stand and it's pretty limited, because Falco got the potential to indefinitely combine till reaching the last blow and WestBallz got enough room of development while top players like Mango, Leffen , Armada and Mew2King reached already their room limits because after they reached their pinacle, there wasn't any real change in their play style, nowadays people say that it's a completely different WestBallz in comparison to the one from 2013-2015 and that's because he currently found the hidden doors never seen before.
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WondrousMoose
Mind the antlers
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I can't wait until PPMD makes his comeack. Westballz is really the only top player consistently using Falco, and while he is an incredible player, we need more diverse representation.
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
I can agree on this, I want to discard both styles, however against floaty cCharakters persistence is needed which means that an aggressive stand fits better, Westballz lastly demonstrated positive outcomes against Hungrybox and against Armada's Peach, he actually developed floaty-dedicated combinations within his aggressive style as Falco.
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BirdmanJR
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
- Messages
- 31
this is an insane amount of recency bias wes is the most techincal for sure but theres no evidence whatsoever to say his falco is better than PP's when wes hasnt ever even won a major or supermajor and if mango was going all falco his could have easily won some majors this year westballz is flashy and amazing but he just hasnt shown hes a god caliber player yet
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FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
Westballz never won a major because he chose a completely different way, a way which is a lot more complicated to master, PP's Falco is defensive and Mago's is a hybrid term, on the balance between a defensive and aggressive stand, while Westballz is mainly aggressive and barely uses a defensive stands, what I mean is that Westballz uses defensive tactics as improvisation and not as a main stand or term, which makes him unpredictable nowadays.
Westballz is very intelligent, original as well proud, according to his personality, a conformist ideology doesn't fit on him at all, I think that Westballz saw the limits on a defensive Falco as well on a hybrid one, Mago saw it surely too but he couldn't fix or adapt himself at the time of introducing aggressive standards like Westballz currently do, and it takes more effort to master Westballz's terms imo, Falco has more development room than Fox because Fox can't combine like Falco, but for that Fox can kill and return to the field with less difficulty, but simplicity is limited and predictable, I suppose that Mango already surrendered with Falco, that's why he play Fox more frequently, but it's only my personal supposition, however Westballz lastly denigrated Mango's and Leffen's Fox with relative ease, he lastly combined loafty characters this year too in hand with new combinations and he started to impact with his current style, what happened in the past doesn't really count nowadays.
In the past, Falco was stronger, because people had difficulties to counteract Falco's (simplicity/standard)combos, then people discovered with the time how to counteract Falco under such parameters and that was what took him down for a time, but Westballz changed it with his acts imo.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
You SERIOUSLY underestimate PPMDs style of Falco. The game isn't as cut and copy as aggro vs defense. Every player has a mixture of the two. PPMD plays the neutral probably better than any other player alive, and that's where he thrives. His punish game isn't always as devastating as Westballz' combos are, but he's more consistent overall for being less risky and opting for smaller commitments than anything else most of the time.
On top of this, you actually don't have as good of an understanding of how Westballz plays the game. His style of Falco is actually deceptively defensive and read-heavy. He'll move away from you for a few seconds with really slick platform movement before getting a read on what you're doing and just catch your next destination with a combo starter. The instant he whiffs anything, he has AMAZING mixups on what he does defensively to the point where most players actually don't get through the defensive walls that he elects to put up. The biggest habit he has is that sometimes he AC bairs into instant utilt, which you'll see Mango punish sometimes.
Mango actually has a different view of Falco than you might think. He said multiple times recently that Falco is more fun, but also more frustrating because he can't get away with doing as much risky stuff as his Fox does. You really have to commit to certain things with the way that Mango likes playing Falco, which is why you see him invent workarounds to different commitments. Where PPMD will laser in and DD to get info as to what you like to do out of his stun and create his opening out of that, Mango will laser a few times from a distance and read what you're going to do out of laser stun. Two quite effective solutions to the same problem.
Also, you're actually EXTREMELY uninformed if you really think that the current top players have no room for improvement and Weston has a lot. Mango regularly says that he's horrible at this game. Armada will admit it, too. PPMD says that the potential of the game is relatively untapped because this game is so incredibly deep. There may have been a time where I said that M2K wasn't going to improve much... and then he stepped up multiple aspects of his game and is starting to look quite nice again.
Last thought: Fox is one of the least "predictable and simple" characters. You're severely underestimating his neutral capability and defensive options. Watch the variation between how Leffen, Mango, and Armada approach the neutral game in any MU, and then tell me that he's predictable and simple. Your bias towards Falco is commendable, but your bias towards WBallz screams "I'm really new to the game and appreciate techskill more than anything else."
Bones0
Smash Legend
What Vish said was totally correct. Plup DIed the nair up/away predicting a dair. His SDI would have put him out of shine range and forced Mango to grab. Since Mango naired, Plup switched his expectations to an fsmash/dsmash, the most common combo finishers after low % nairs, and switched his DI to up/in, which resulted in a mostly vertical trajectory on the dtilt. Dtilt is countered harder by combo DI than shine is because of the lag and lower trajectory, but if they survival DI you can keep them in front of you where a shine would have allowed them to at least DI slightly behind. I don't think it mattered how Plup DIed the second nair after the dtilt because he was still at such a low % that Mango could get the suicide dair regardless, but it seems like he was still expecting an fsmash because he kept doing survival DI which just made it that much easier.
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FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
To begin with I never said that' such applied styles are separately from each other, a mixture is always needed, it's something obvious, I'm not here to give someone obvious answers in the mouth, if you're expecting from me to waste my time likes this, then we don't need to discuss , since I exactly want to avoid this sentences while realizing your opportunist behavior on the matter despite you're aware of these filler arguments you're giving to me and trying to deviate the subject.
PPMD is mainly defensive and when he applies aggressive terms, they're mostly expressed as opportunist acts which were mainly born from a defensive stand and such tactic is limited because it's mainly based on a second act after realizing the first one and as we all know, the first act is always in advantage because the second one must wait,no matter if it's for one, half, or a quarter of a second, apart from being slow in terms of combining upcoming combinations, the one who does the first aggressive act while avoiding the opposite defense, is the one who forces the adversary to change its rhythm when failing its defensive terms, PPMD uses laser and fake methods most times, which are pretty limited and predictable, lasers are very useful I'm not going to negate it, but if you spam them, they are predictable and it gives the opposition a certain room for the first contact.
If you don't risk you won't win much, if one is likely to risk you will win experience no matter if failing or winning, because risks give one experience in a minimal % and experience is worth, if one have a minimal % of experience in advantage, then one is likely to develop reactions likely to repeal casualties with the time.
You're actually very wrong on this, WestBallz isn't mainly defensive and opportunistic at all, he introduces lasers as an improvisation, he mainly searches the first contact without the necessity to discard if the laser did hit against an on-guard or off-guard, rather to cover the ground zone after shooting one or 2 lasers, he mainly searches the room for the introduction of its reflector combos, he is likely to use more DA entries while sometimes improvising lasers which is a lot more effective, because long DA entries mobilizes Falco for a potential Reflector combo which makes his playstyle more unpredictable instead punishing the enemy with lasers while waiting of the second act.
Yeah, maybe a minimal percentage of improvement is inevitable but again obvious, but WestBalz made a huge step in comparison to the others within the time skip, WestBallz suddenly made a huge step and the others maybe improved minimally, ofc the one who makes a sudden huge step is the one who highlights its own room potential and not otherwise.
Did I say that Fox is simple? Did I say that Fox can't combine?
I SAID
Fox can't combine like Falco and it's a fact, so you're being again opportunistic while throwing me with filler answers, doing your own manipulations on what I said.
I SAID
Fox can kill with less difficulty, he can kill without the necessity to combine that much and that's what makes him predictable in comparison to Falco, more ways you got to introduce combos or kills more unpredictable you're.
Understand the core of what I'm saying and don't react so abruptly, I please you very humbly, because answers from the wound are most times superficial.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
First, I want to address the last part of this. You're trying to assert that if you don't risk much, you can't gain much. However, back to the PPMD example, he risks very little when he plays the neutral game and still has the (subjectively) best Falco in the world. Both him and M2K largely refuse to put themselves into situations that are worse than 50-50, but PPMDs brilliance comes out of the fact that he mixes up what the situations are almost every single time and randomly makes harder reads to throw his opponent off and make themselves question themselves more. And obviously, losing confidence can easily lead to losing games.
As for the first part, I'll admit that I should have been a bit more specific when I mentioned PPMDs playstyle. He'll understand what you're going to do, but play defensively in your face, waiting for you to give him an opening that he can immediately leap upon. The only real limiting factor to this type of playstyle is against a player like Armada with ridiculously consistent powershields, but he can still generate neutral wins from there simply because of how deep his understanding of the neutral is. I think you touch on something interesting with "PPMD uses laser and fake methods most of the time...." <- that sentence, which really makes me question precisely what you mean. To me, it sounds like you're saying that PPMDs preferred style of generating neutral openings is limited, but then you acknowledge how insanely good his mixups are, which is entirely contradictory. The fact that he mixes up what he does so well is why he his style is so hard to handle, not what limits it. When I do video analysis, I have more fun looking at how he's tricking his opponent in neutral than anything else.
I didn't say that WBallz was mainly defensive and opportunistic. What I said was that he's deceptively defensive. A lot of people think of WBallz as an extremely aggressive player, but he chooses a lot of excellent moments to play surprisingly passively so that he can get a read on what his opponents trying to do. Also, please just call it a shine. Referring to it as a reflector combo just sounds ridiculous.
I think that the "huge step" you're talking about largely has to do with the concept of Local Maxima that Wobbles wrote on a while ago. If you don't know, he was basically asserting that a large amount of growth in the game involves getting drastically better and then plateauing before figuring out what's holding you back on that plateau and advancing once more. My biggest thing against WBallz is that the degree to which he attempts to read his opponents is a really big hindrance, as is his love of devastating punishes that often causes him to overextend. While he did make a nice step recently-ish, it doesn't appear he's going upwards super fast anymore, especially where it comes to floatier MUs, which are traditionally thought of as the harder ones for Falco.
Again, it feels like you're contradicting yourself. Are you trying to assert that Fox is a predictable character because people just want that one juicy usmash/uair? Because Falco is a predictable character for just wanting that one n/dair that leads into a shine. Marth is predictable for wanting a singular grab. Good players know these are the main tools and know the mixups and how to move around the counterplay. Foxes could easily do a safe nair or shield pressure for the opening that they need to kill or set up for an edgeguard, which they do regularly. I don't understand the basis of your argument, because you're not properly spelling it out.
*Break*
You see, the issue with this is that it's rather hard to do that when you don't properly say what you mean. I'm an author. Word choice and sentence structure is of the utmost importance. If you're going to say something, then say it properly and actually expound upon your thoughts instead of making generalizations that can easily be misread. The lengths of your sentences in multiple situations didn't help either due to the number of subject changes and phrases with unclear topics.
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
PPMD uses most times the laser to discard how its enemy will react and it's slow, it lacks persistence imo, he spams the laser to proof what will come as next which is slow because the adversary got the first chance to approach him, so the adversary has the first move and based on such one, PPMD is forced to adapt himself and there is the limit because while PPMD is trying to adapt himself, the adversary who made the first approach has the chance to adapt himself again, which puts PPMD's defensive terms in disadvantage and aren't sure at all, while PPMD is adapting himself, it's enemy is 1 or 2 steps away from him on the ground, middle zone or upper zone.
Standard, he won't be permanently aggressive despite it's his main style, it's obvious, and what I mean is that he doesn't always spam lasers, he do DA entries as well NA entries which give him a perfect approach for reflector combos, what's ridiculous about it? That he varies a lot more than PPMD is that ridiculous for you? He uses lasers to cover the ground zone for a blocking purpose and so to have an aggressive entrance from the medium, upper zone and sometimes on the ground, now if you don't know what I mean with DA and NA.
DA =Down Arial
NA = Natural Arial
We have to agree and disagree here, in the past WestBallz wasn't that triumphant with his aggressive style because it's more difficult to master imo, it requires more complexity and accurate movements, an aggressive term is a persistent term which doesn't let you breathe, which doesn't let one time to rethink "what should I do as next" an aggressive Falco is always in advantage because its mechanics makes him more dangerous of this way and the fact to improvise to a defensive stand makes him more unpredictable, an aggressive Falco has more options and more probabilities to reach its adversary and that's what counts.
Falco has more variation in the perspective of fighting and ways of killing, he can vary further than Fox and Marth without questions, to depend on viewer ways/options makes one more predictable than others with more ways and the ones with more ways got more room development by default, it's simple logic.
We have to agree and disagree here, one thing is the structuration of what one is writing and another thing is what's obvious, what it'ss necessary to say and what not because it's understandable or you're going to ask me if the economy influences politics?
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
As I said, your word choice was a bit poor previously. You're putting words in my mouth now, though. All I was saying was that the way you were talking and your sentence structure both made it extremely easy to misunderstand what you're saying. If you don't explain your thoughts well, then multiple interpretations are inevitable. It's typically good to assume what you're saying ISN'T implied.
My issue with WBallz, AS STATED, is that he's way too read heavy and commits too hard most of the time. Do I have issues with using slick platform movement to create some openings? No. Do I have issues with making strategic reads amid creating actual openings? No. My issue is a heavy reliance on platform movement and not creating nearly as many openings as he does just try to read what his opponents doing. PPMD doesn't particularly spam laser, he simply likes to shoot the gun. The reason he doesn't get super consistently punished for it is because he knows where and when he can. On top of this, when he's establishing this pressure, he DDs strategically in between the lasers so as to mix up WHEN he'll shoot, and then mixes up the laser height on top of it to make it even harder to powershield and to know what kinds of counterplay exist to that particular laser height. Also, if you don't think playstyles that are heavy on defense aren't good, then watch Armada's peach. He thrives on making his opponents life annoying and having better defense than their pressure.
I do want to say, though, that I appreciate your explaining your thoughts more. It also appears we do have different ideas about both the game and Falco, which is probably largely where our disagreement stems from.
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FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
Sr author, I'm so sorry that I don't have and extended vocabulary like you, if there is any intention on your side to highlight your dedication all those years as an author, then be proud of it, it's absolutely no problem, but don't come to me with such card, I expressed myself directly in a simplified way and you was the one who started distort my arguments with obvious answers.
When I say:
PPD's Falco is defensive, did I simultaneously say that it's only defensive?
No, I'm obviously highlighting PPD's defensive style, so if I'm highlighting it, is because his defensive style predominate.
If it predominates, does it mean for you that he won't use aggressive terms, NO.
If one side predominates over the other, does it mean for you there won't be a mixture. NO
What's the difference? he uses the laser a lot and that's why I call it spam why I should express myself how you expresses yourself, I have my humor and you have your own, however I don't mind, but again you don't have to tell me anything as long I'm not being disrespectful, but now you're the one who is sassy with such unnecessary redundant answer.
I can follow you on this, the so called 3 stage lasers or trial lasers which covers 3 stages and sometimes 2, yes indeed, it's a very good tactic against loafty characters imo, but against characters like Fox not always.
We have to agree and disagree, but to be sincere I only did it especially for you, I could have responded in a simplified way again and then finish my discussion with you no matter what you had to say, but like you see I'm not arrogant at all, I can be annoyed of the whole situation but when it's worth for specific people, then I acced to explain part by part.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
My goal wasn't to be come off as an asshole. The goal was to let you know that the way I read what you said was misunderstood (not my putting words in your mouth) because your statements were so vague. As far as the rest of it, I think we actually agree, just explain it differently. My description of a passive in-your-face style actually agrees with what you said. As far as your explaining yourself goes, I appreciate that you did it as it let me better understand the way you view the game.
Yeah, it doesn't always work well against Fox, but PPs amazing at adapting and realizing when he should run away a bit more. Like I said, he generally knows when he can and can't shoot the gun due to his ability to condition his opponents well. And if lasers aren't an option, he's got bits of solid shield pressure or clever tactics when running away, etc.
So, in my mind, if you're spamming an option, you're doing it a lot and almost mindlessly. Somebody who stands there utilting in the corner is probably spamming utilt. That's where the difference between spamming lasers and liking to shoot the gun plays in. It's not as though PPs shooting the same laser height with the same pattern every time, like I explained earlier. I should've said that a bit better, I'll admit, but that was the point I was trying to get across.
Now, before the conversation progresses (if at all), I do wanna apologize. I tend to come off as an asshole sometimes when people express views differing from mine, because, well, they're my opinions. As far as the author quip goes, I hadn't realized initially that you had your location set to Germany. That, compounded with other little things, makes me assume (but please correct me if I'm wrong) that English isn't your first language, so I wanna apologize for picking apart word choice so much. Little things like your use of the word "spam" earlier make it easy for me to understand messages in different ways from what they were intended to mean because I have such a heavy focus on word choice. I made no attempts to disrespect your opinions, simply put forth my own arguments regarding them.
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FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
But, PPD isn't mindlessly, he's a respectable gamer, so if I'm expressing myself on this way, is because I'm being sarcastic or rather ironical since I don't have the intention to make fun of PPD, it's just only a bit of humor.
I must agree that he's capable of varying within his defensive style, I won't negate it and he's good in this regard, WestBallz nor Mango won't be capable of playing his style so good and it's not easy to go through it, particularly I like more WestBallz's style and admire a lot the sacrifice he did at the time of choosing a mainly aggressive style on Falco, which wasn't that welcome 7 years ago.
I apologize too, I won't admit at all that I was right, I lack patience and I should have taken it more neutral, have some consideration toward PPD's style and English isn't my main language.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Alright, well I'm frankly glad we could work this out. I do definitely appreciate WBallz punish game most of the time, but I've got a lot of PPMD bias in me, so that comes through strongly a lot of the time.
Vista_
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2016
- Messages
- 39
Hey guys. I've recently been trying to improve my neutral and I was thinking about the applications of laser outside of follow ups and inhibiting movement, and I feel that lasers have a lot of potential as a mental tool. Broad question here but I feel like we can get a productive discussion going: how do you all use lasers to condition your opponent and affect them psychologically?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
So, it depends on the level of the player a lot. Sometimes I can stand there spamming SHL vs newer players and they get tilted from my doing nothing special, so that's one easier way to mentally affect people. The other big thing I like doing is using them to restrict recoveries and/or to catch them as they're coming down to extend combos. I know this is relatively standard, but depending on the MU/person, the feeling of having their options restricted like that can sometimes put people into this "I cannot escape Falco" mentality, which is reflected in their play by more desperate attempts at making openings. For example, Falcon already has a rough time vs Falco, so if the game's on FD and i'm pseudo-extending combos with lasers consistently, some Falcon's will start trying to throw out more randy knees/stomps in an attempt to get in.
Against more disciplined players, it's really hard to accomplish anything like that. They'll have realized that sometimes things like that are part of the MU and they'll know their counterplay to certain situations. As a result of this, they'll be way less likely to get tilted from lasers.
One thing that is really nice with lasers, though, is using them like Mango suggests to figure out how your opponents react to them. You get a read from there and can create a pretty nice opening. If you can do this consistently, they could become a bit more angry. It's sorta like getting techchased hard by a Falcon reading you. You feel what you did wasn't predictable or shouldn't have been easily punishable, and a good Falcon busts out a few nice reads and obliterates several stocks. Similar concept.
Vista_
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2016
- Messages
- 39
I really like Mango's suggested use for lasers. Since opponents like to shield and jump over lasers it works really well with Falco's anti air/anti shield games. This can add onto the feeling of restriction that Lasers can accomplish. I also find that the threat of lasers that can be applied by dash dancing like PP does between his lasers can keep your opponent expecting lasers, which lets you mix it up with an empty sh grab
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
In my opinion, the laser is a tool with double face if abusing it in this regard, you can generate a certain level of desperation on your opponent there are none doubts on this, but people are different we all got different mental endurance and there would be a breakpoint where soon or later your opponent will adapt himself to your rhythm based on your given patterns and finally use it against yourself, but if using lasers as an interval application rather than a consecutive application, you have the option to badly habituate your opponent making it literally impossible to accurately follow your rhythm based on your given patterns, this could lead your opponent to a certain mental instability wich is more effectively than a momentarily desperation/frustration.
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Vista_
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2016
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- 39
That's a good thought. At the front of your mind when using laser for whatever purpose against any half decent opponent should be the prospect of them picking up on your patterns. Learning to make the most of each laser is an extremely important concept so that your neutral does not become exploitable
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-266#post-13598472 Fun fact: The very first post in this thread by PP has a ton of links to his older posts about thoughts on the game. Lots of gems in there. The one I linked you has to deal with exactly what you asked about. Only remembered about the existence of those posts a little while ago because I wanted to see what he had to say on meditation. Hope it helps!
BirdmanJR
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
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- 31
I just want to point out that even if westballz has better "tech skill" than PP
PP still has better grounded movement as Falco than Wes ever has , and I doubt wes will ever be able to play and understand the neutral and understand how to change his strategy to beat gods like PP does
like I cant ever see westballz beating Hbox with falco consistantly... Hbox is just too smart for him Im sorry
Westballz is the kind of player that can take a game off any god on a great day but if they met 2-3-4-5-6 times or something like the hbox,mango,armada triangle in 2016 he would eventually start getting destroyed when they prepared for him I just dont see him as being that kind of player
PP still has better grounded movement as Falco than Wes ever has , and I doubt wes will ever be able to play and understand the neutral and understand how to change his strategy to beat gods like PP does
like I cant ever see westballz beating Hbox with falco consistantly... Hbox is just too smart for him Im sorry
Westballz is the kind of player that can take a game off any god on a great day but if they met 2-3-4-5-6 times or something like the hbox,mango,armada triangle in 2016 he would eventually start getting destroyed when they prepared for him I just dont see him as being that kind of player
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Vista_
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2016
- Messages
- 39
Thanks
FE_Hector
for bringing up that awesome resource. https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-237#post-13305125
THIS POST. I reccomend reading this to anyone who hasn't. In short, PPMD talks about how each character teaches different things to a player and then goes on to explain how he was frustrated with Falco's dash dance until he realized it needed to be used in conjunction WITH LASERS in order to condition the opponent.
For example, he would make them second guess themselves and possibly change their defensive habits by lasering in and then dash dancing in front of their shield. The beauty of this is not only its capacity to make them do exploitable things like sit in shield out of fear, but also its relative safety while keeping Falco's options open. By lasering in -> DD as a mixup, you can do a retreating laser, use a spaced tilt to poke their shield, run->shine or aerial-> shine to add pressure, JC Grab out of the dash, etc.
Yes, all of these options can either reset the situation or start a combo, but what I find interesting is that by performing any of these you're conditioning your opponent to choose an option later that you can exploit. For example, If you DD grabbed their likely to either spot dodge or space outside of grab range, both of which can be punished with a late/overshot aerial.
I've found that by trying to understand the mental aspect behind each action in neutral you can improve your game beyond the controller, as well as increase your general understanding of the game.
FE_Hector
for bringing up that awesome resource. https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-237#post-13305125THIS POST. I reccomend reading this to anyone who hasn't. In short, PPMD talks about how each character teaches different things to a player and then goes on to explain how he was frustrated with Falco's dash dance until he realized it needed to be used in conjunction WITH LASERS in order to condition the opponent.
For example, he would make them second guess themselves and possibly change their defensive habits by lasering in and then dash dancing in front of their shield. The beauty of this is not only its capacity to make them do exploitable things like sit in shield out of fear, but also its relative safety while keeping Falco's options open. By lasering in -> DD as a mixup, you can do a retreating laser, use a spaced tilt to poke their shield, run->shine or aerial-> shine to add pressure, JC Grab out of the dash, etc.
Yes, all of these options can either reset the situation or start a combo, but what I find interesting is that by performing any of these you're conditioning your opponent to choose an option later that you can exploit. For example, If you DD grabbed their likely to either spot dodge or space outside of grab range, both of which can be punished with a late/overshot aerial.
I've found that by trying to understand the mental aspect behind each action in neutral you can improve your game beyond the controller, as well as increase your general understanding of the game.
LeadRod
Smash Apprentice
I was thinking about it and I realized that I can't really think of a situation where DI mixups are effective w Falco outside off throw mixups and combo-ing at higher percents towards the edge where you can either get a guaranteed edgeguard situation or try to read their DI and get a kill confirm. Potentially there is room for DI mixups in low percent combos where you can catch the opponet DIing the wrong way to force them into an edgeguard early but other than those options I realized I don't really know of any other situation. Do you guys know of any?
FalcoSBM1990
Smash Cadet
Well, I'm not going tell you that you should change your opinion about WestBallz, if you think that he isn't that smart so be it however I don't mind, but PPD's Falco style can be considered as the son from the classic Falco style approximately 7-8 years ago, some sort of modification, while WestBallz's Falco style can be considered as the opposite brother from the classic Falco style, in my opinion, WestBallz had the guts to literally start from 0 which is worthy of being creative, innovative and such minds like from WestBallz's and from PPD's as well, contributes to the development of the character self who is Falco, what if in the upcoming years someone combines WestBallz terms with PPD's terms while introducing its own style?
A new style will be born, the character would develop further more.
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FE_Hector
Smash Lord
You can sometimes catch an opponent trying to DI out of pillars at low%s, and if they didn't hard DI beforehand, you sometimes have enough time to fsmash them. There's not a TON of mixups that can be done at low%s, but I mean... you've got Falco combos.