PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Bones0]

What do you guys think of shield poking with the weak hitbox of rising bair? Been testing it on fully shielded Marth and you can place it in a position where it hits his feet and knocks him out of shield. Have not been able to convert much but I'm pretty sure if I am able to get stricter timing I could get a shine off, but at low percents >50 if you get them on a platform it's likely they will be able to just shield again since the bair has end lag, though they are free to hit if you pop them off stage or off the platform.

Sounds very liable to get CC grabbed.

 

[Jackson]

Random Multishine questions:
1. How many shines will generally connect on a shield before they are pushed too far back?
2. How many shines will generally break a shield?

 

[Bones0]

Random Multishine questions:
1. How many shines will generally connect on a shield before they are pushed too far back?
2. How many shines will generally break a shield?

1. It depends on how you're spaced and which way they are shield DIing, if at all.
2. Too many to ever break someone's shield from full health.

 

[McWaffles]

How do I get close enough to my opponent to hit with shine?
I'm not very good at SHFFL Dair to shine.
What other shine approaches are there?

If I were you, I'd learn spacing with Falco.. Also, you need to SHFFL.

 

[Zeppeli]

Man, are there any other ways to practice getting out your aerials precisely to stuff certain moves?

PP's really the only falco that does this and somehow always gets his DD AC bair out at a perfect time when its too risky & takes too long to laser. I think he talked about laser -> turn uptilt as being pretty important on his streams ... Guess I have to work on getting out Falco's defense. That definitely feels like the hardest thing about his gameplay right now, especially since only dair IMO is decent when he's trying to stuff something while facing his opponent. The little turn really does make a difference.

 

[OninO]

Pivot jumps are essential to all Falco's defensive aerials

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

This is just in General but how do you know when to Laser or not?

Edit:Nevermind, figured it out

 

[SpiderMad]

What should I be doing DI wise when I get hit by Peach's D-smash

 

[PlamZ]

What should I be doing DI wise when I get hit by Peach's D-smash

SmashDI up and try to escape the third hit away. Also, don't miss your tech or you might be in for another round in the washing machine.

 

[KevJames]

In regards to waveshining, Is it expected to reset your control stick to neutral in between the shine and the wavedash to avoid turning around in shine? I know sometimes I accidentally do a turnaround waveshine because I tend to hold towards the direction I'm going to wavedash in. Should I just input the direction as i airdodge for the wavedash?

 

[Jackson]

This isn't really relevant, but something weird is that i used to mess up and get the laggy staying in shine thing when waveshining backwards, but now when waveshining backwards as fast as i can i turn around but dont lag. Idek

 

[Bones0]

In regards to waveshining, Is it expected to reset your control stick to neutral in between the shine and the wavedash to avoid turning around in shine? I know sometimes I accidentally do a turnaround waveshine because I tend to hold towards the direction I'm going to wavedash in. Should I just input the direction as i airdodge for the wavedash?

I continue holding down from the shine input until I jump, at which point I rotate it left/right to the desired wavedash angle.

 

[Jackson]

Two questions:

1: is it possible to do a fully invincible fire bird stall on the ledge?

2: if so, what is the optimal execution to achieve this?

 

[PlamZ]

Two questions:

1: is it possible to do a fully invincible fire bird stall on the ledge?

2: if so, what is the optimal execution to achieve this?

1: Unless you are frame perfect on your drop (Dropping from the ledge at the EXACT first frame it is possible), you will probably always have 1 to 4 frame of lag depending on the speed you can do it.

2: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall has a pretty good breakdown on how to achieve this.

 

[Bones0]

Two questions:

1: is it possible to do a fully invincible fire bird stall on the ledge?

2: if so, what is the optimal execution to achieve this?

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-...t-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/#post-16602582

 

[IdkLmao]

Suggestion. Has anyone ever thought of compiling all the ideas, questions and answers in this thread into one place?

That would save so much time for any player wanting to catch up on this threads valuable information

 

[oukd]

this thread is the one place

theres really too much material in this thread to organize properly. i just bookmarked a few posts that i thought were noteworthy and i imagine thats what most other people do too. unless someones ready to comb through 566 pages of materials its really not a feasible idea. could be doable if you split the work up between a few people...but its not really that worth ~_~

you can also use the search function to look for specifics in the thread

 

[keninblack]

Somewhat of a controversial/probably idiotic question... but, is there a reason to multishine excessively?

Outside of looking sick I never see anyone truly even convert off of it after the 3rd, 4th, and onward shine. It doesn't take away all that much shield either.

Am I missing something here? I usually do 2 shines in succession, but I just don't understand the reasoning of going for all those multishines when you can get a more guaranteed shield grab into more pressure anyway.

Feel free to call me out on this and tell me why I'm wrong I'm really curious, i'm a mediocre player on a good day so I just would like to know. Basically i'm just wondering if its a "play how you like" option or a option in which you NEED to implement into your game and i'm just missing out. Thanks in advance!

 

[Stalled]

There's not really any reason to do more than two shines most of the time, imo. Successive shines will push the opponent out of range without them lightshielding or shield DIing away, meaning that if the opponent uses either of these options, you might have ****ed yourself trying to be fancy. The benefit of doubleshining is that is covers your opponent rolling, the shines after that are a bit slower (3 frames? don't quote me) and I believe that they will not beat a buffered roll.

Though if you can do like 47 multishines in a row people think you're cool.

 

[M.C.Jeducation]

The more multishines you can do, the more successful you will be in all areas of life. While being able to do 69 multishines in a row may be fairly useless in a game of smash, it WILL give you the ability to be the coolest person in a room and to intimidate your opponent into submission.

Seriously, if you start out a match by doing 420 multishines in a row the opponent has a 100% chance of just giving up out fear.

Be careful with this power though, I once saw a man do 30 multishines and then drop dead on the spot. This is a power beyond any other in the world and must be used with caution.

But you know, if you only want to double-shine that's okay. I guess.

 

[EZPZ]

Is the key to getting bair into dair hitting the bair late or hitting a weird hitbox with it

 

[Bones0]

Is the key to getting bair into dair hitting the bair late or hitting a weird hitbox with it

It depends on their character, percent, DI, and your spacing. Sometimes you need to hit with a strong bair to ensure there's enough hitstun to link the dair. Other times you need to hit with a weak bair to prevent them from flying too far away. There are, of course, times when it's simply not guaranteed.

 

[bolt.]

WHat's up falco discussion?
what openings do you guys look for when you play?

 

[Spoice]

So is Falco a part of 20XX or is that just Fox?

 

[bolt.]

just marth and fox maybe pichu and bowser too

 

[AvengerAngel]

Dear @ Dr Peepee , do you have some advice on the Falco ditto MU?
The problem is that I really REALLY suck at dealing with lazors and finding defensive options against Falco.

We all know how good Falco's Bair/Utilt/CC etc. are to deal with most of the cast's moveset, and how hard it could be to penetrate the defense of a good Falco player. And we also know that Falco's approaches can be countered very well by most of the top tiers. But when I'm playing the ditto I just feel helpless ;_;
If I get lazored I'm forced to turn around and I can't Bair/Utilt anymore to defend from the incoming approach. If I shield to avoid getting hit I can get grabbed and then die. If I try to run away or spot dodge to avoid the grab I get hit and die. If I try to CC the hit I get Daired and die. Why is this character sooooo broken omg

That's why I prefer the aggressive side in the ditto, but if I misread my opponent's movement then I can get spot dodge>shined, shined OOS, CC shined etc., and then I die anyway.

I know the simple answer for all of this could be "be less predictable and avoid getting hit", but it's easier said than done xP
I think I really lack some kind of "mental flowchart/list of counters" to deal with Falco's moveset.
E.g.: I know that I want Marth to be above me and not under me because when he's in the air he's weak and I can hit him with Bair/Utilt depending on the situation, or mabye shield/CC his attacks and punish etc., so I know how to deal with him when I put him in that situation. But against Falco I have no idea of which situation would give me a real advantage and why D:

Also I'm bad at comboing/tech chasing but there's nothing much you can do about it to help me I guess lol

I've recently recorded a tournament set of Falco dittos in which I really sucked because of the horrible new Smash 4 controller that is terrible for lazoring, but anyway if you feel like watching a few minutes of that I can link it here when I'm done uploading it D:

tl;dr: how do I avoid getting detroyed by Falco as Falco? D:

 

[OninO]

What tools do other people have to deal with the approach? The same tools you do, accept the laser hit then move, jab them after hitstun ends, shield and buffer roll after the shine. If at mid range, accept laser, jump immediately, get your laser out and dont fast fall it, this often works to regain laser control.

 

[Stalled]

wavedash oos is crucial for the falco ditto.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dear @ Dr Peepee , do you have some advice on the Falco ditto MU?
The problem is that I really REALLY suck at dealing with lazors and finding defensive options against Falco.

We all know how good Falco's Bair/Utilt/CC etc. are to deal with most of the cast's moveset, and how hard it could be to penetrate the defense of a good Falco player. And we also know that Falco's approaches can be countered very well by most of the top tiers. But when I'm playing the ditto I just feel helpless ;_;
If I get lazored I'm forced to turn around and I can't Bair/Utilt anymore to defend from the incoming approach. If I shield to avoid getting hit I can get grabbed and then die. If I try to run away or spot dodge to avoid the grab I get hit and die. If I try to CC the hit I get Daired and die. Why is this character sooooo broken omg

That's why I prefer the aggressive side in the ditto, but if I misread my opponent's movement then I can get spot dodge>shined, shined OOS, CC shined etc., and then I die anyway.

I know the simple answer for all of this could be "be less predictable and avoid getting hit", but it's easier said than done xP
I think I really lack some kind of "mental flowchart/list of counters" to deal with Falco's moveset.
E.g.: I know that I want Marth to be above me and not under me because when he's in the air he's weak and I can hit him with Bair/Utilt depending on the situation, or mabye shield/CC his attacks and punish etc., so I know how to deal with him when I put him in that situation. But against Falco I have no idea of which situation would give me a real advantage and why D:

Also I'm bad at comboing/tech chasing but there's nothing much you can do about it to help me I guess lol

I've recently recorded a tournament set of Falco dittos in which I really sucked because of the horrible new Smash 4 controller that is terrible for lazoring, but anyway if you feel like watching a few minutes of that I can link it here when I'm done uploading it D:

tl;dr: how do I avoid getting detroyed by Falco as Falco? D:

watch how wes and mango dodge lasers at mayhem. the simplest answer is to to go high. FH/DJ/platforms. if youre up there you cant be hit. then you can either attack or shield drop or laser back down and start your own offensive.

on the ground, you should be SDI'ing lasers into turnaround utilt or bair.

really, the bigger problem people have with falco isn't what I just said though, it's practice. practice getting shot. get shot. take a 20xx cpu and make him shoot and get shot, or take a level 9 regular cpu and he will shoot when far away. practice getting used to being hit, the SDI, and how to dash/jump/attack/whatever afterward. you build comfort and can recognize your options easier there.

everyone that wants to learn to fight falco needs to get shot up a lot lol. then it's not scary because you're used to it.

 

[IdkLmao]

Hey guys. So this is mainly for Dr PeePee or any other really serious falco player atm.
The mewtwo boards are trying to get an overhaul in activity and we're trying to get some development in mewtwos metagame going. Problem is mewtwo boards are really slow and are lacking good write ups on how his matchups go in general atm.

Falco is one of mewtwos hardest characters to fight against. Not having much information on dealing with him is pretty rough. I was wondering if you could maybe give us some juicy comprehensive writeups on your thoughts about how falco does against mewtwo. Or even share ideas for topics you think mewtwo needs to cover that haven't gotten threads or noticed very much yet.

If thats too much to ask, really anything is better than nothing. Whatever you feel comfortable writing and sharing might be very helpful for developing mewtwo.

Edit- Dr.PeePee. Additionally hearing your thoughts on marth would also be great. Its a hard matchup and you have one of the best marths around.

Thanks for reading.

 

[BirdmanJR]

this thread is the one place

theres really too much material in this thread to organize properly. i just bookmarked a few posts that i thought were noteworthy and i imagine thats what most other people do too. unless someones ready to comb through 566 pages of materials its really not a feasible idea. could be doable if you split the work up between a few people...but its not really that worth ~_~

you can also use the search function to look for specifics in the thread

for a person trying to learn falco is reading this thread from top to bottom a bad idea? Im only worried about misinformat

this thread is the one place

theres really too much material in this thread to organize properly. i just bookmarked a few posts that i thought were noteworthy and i imagine thats what most other people do too. unless someones ready to comb through 566 pages of materials its really not a feasible idea. could be doable if you split the work up between a few people...but its not really that worth ~_~

you can also use the search function to look for specifics in the thread

you think its a good idea for a relatively new falco to go back and read as much of this thread as possible? I just want as much falco knowledge as I can fit in my brain

 

[IdkLmao]

I'd be up to the task of compiling the threads information together. The thing is I can't distinguish the post advice from the 2009/earlier years in this thread as advice that would really work in todays metagame/getting good or not. Are they timeless gems or outdated? For example even PPMDs earlier posts from 2009 in here make me wonder if he thinks its good advice today. Not that I think its bad. I just don't know how he personally feels about how good it is now.

Deciding how good advice was from posters here who can't be linked to strong tournament attendance is also hard. Their advice might have been on to something or could just be blind leading the blind. Its hard to tell.

Getting all the good nuggets of info in one place from this thread together and organized would be really nice to see.

@ BirdmanJR starting with the main thread links PP has in the first post is a great start. Try to work through those if you haven't already.

 

[Bones0]

I've already compiled all the useful posts in this thread HERE.

 

[tauKhan]

If I get lazored I'm forced to turn around and I can't Bair/Utilt anymore to defend from the incoming approach.

Learn to turnaround utilt proficiently, using control stick angles that cause both turn and the utilt. Your orientation shouldn't matter too much, since turn only takes 1 extra frame. If you're grounded and want to bair but you're facing wrong way, you can smash turn bair. Smash turn is done by smashing the stick like when dashing, and allows you to jump immediately facing the other way.

 

[AvengerAngel]

stuff

Yup I also tried platform camping but I feel it's really hard sometimes to go back down without getting lazored and comboed for that lol

Also with SDI are you just referring to SDI'ing away from them? I never thought it could make such a huge difference D:

Learn to turnaround utilt proficiently, using control stick angles that cause both turn and the utilt. Your orientation shouldn't matter too much, since turn only takes 1 extra frame. If you're grounded and want to bair but you're facing wrong way, you can smash turn bair. Smash turn is done by smashing the stick like when dashing, and allows you to jump immediately facing the other way.

Lol I'm terrible at turnaround > Utilt, I guess I'll have to work on that
Do you have a picture that shows the correct angles to turnaround > utilt?

Also I never heard of smash turn before I think. Do I just smash the stick away as fast as possible and then jump? What's the difference from holding the stick away at a different angle? D:

Thanks for the help <3

 

[tauKhan]

Lol I'm terrible at turnaround > Utilt, I guess I'll have to work on that
Do you have a picture that shows the correct angles to turnaround > utilt?

Unfortunately I don't have any picture, but you should be able to figure it out yourself. The angles are slightly up and back, and if you are in a situation where you can buffer the up without jumping, you can do full up and slightly back, for instance angle in the middle between the upward notch and diagonal up and back notches.

What's the difference from holding the stick away at a different angle? D:

If you hold the stick or do a slight input to do a tilt turn, you need to wait for a certain char dependent amount of frames (>= than 5 with all chars I think, 7 might be the most common), or you'll revert back to your original orientation after jumping (or shielding). However if you smash turn, you can jump immediately after turning. If you do an attack out of tilt turn, you will be turned though, so you don't need to smash turn utilt for instance.

And yeah, to smash turn you just smash the stick as fast as you can. If you want to avoid dashing, you need to jump immediately after the turn or do empty pivot kind of motion.

 

[AvengerAngel]

If you hold the stick or do a slight input to do a tilt turn, you need to wait for a certain char dependent amount of frames (>= than 5 with all chars I think, 7 might be the most common), or you'll revert back to your original orientation after jumping (or shielding). However if you smash turn, you can jump immediately after turning. If you do an attack out of tilt turn, you will be turned though, so you don't need to smash turn utilt for instance.

And yeah, to smash turn you just smash the stick as fast as you can. If you want to avoid dashing, you need to jump immediately after the turn or do empty pivot kind of motion.

Ok so let me check if I got it correctly.
If I want to do a turnaround Utilt, I can just try to tilt the stick in the correct direction to turnaround and then utilt. I can also use the stun of the opponent's lazor to start moving the stick without accidentally jumping or dashing in the other direction, right? That would be the "tilt-turn" Utilt.

However, if I want to turnaround and instantly Bair them, I can't "buffer" the turnaround input during the hitstun of the lazor (because that's laggy), so I'll have to wait for the stun to end and then smash the stick in the opposite direction, jump and finally Bair them. Of course dashing for a few frames is not an issue, but the most important thing is to turn around asap to Bair them (a SH Nair could be a good defensive tool as well, but not as much as a Bair sometimes).
So it's just a matter of smashing the stick from the neutral position to the far left/right as quickly as possible when the stun is over, right?

I think I had already noticed the tilt-turn thing lag by myself, but I never studied it in-depth so I didn't know there was a faster way to turn around without lag lol. Experimenting with this can help me improve my defensive game :D
Thank you for the help <33

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah you got everything correctly. Though I want to add that doing a dash bair will have the hitbox of the bair in a very different spot than a smash turn jump bair. Even 1 frame of dash will make you move a considerable amount and it gives your jump initial velocity as well. So you kind of have to be able to avoid the dash to bair at a certain place, for example when stuffing approaches.

 

[bolt.]

Hey @ Dr Peepee how do you feel about ccing lasers?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yup I also tried platform camping but I feel it's really hard sometimes to go back down without getting lazored and comboed for that lol

Also with SDI are you just referring to SDI'ing away from them? I never thought it could make such a huge difference D:

You're not camping, you're just moving down right after a laser comes out or when they stop shooting. Watch Falco dittos in slow motion and you will notice there is not constant shooting and you can find where to place one.

Hey @ Dr Peepee how do you feel about ccing lasers?

I always forget if it does anything or not, but either way I don't care much for it. Lasers don't stun long anyway so I'd rather take that time to move usually.