Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
I asked the last part earlier kind of and Bones sent this to me so it could help you
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-haxdash.390932/
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-haxdash.390932/
Guzzler Guzzler
Melee Elitist
Then practice your SHFFL dair to shine and watch videos of pro falcos. If you can't answer such a simple question yourself then you need to do a lot more training
Breakfast_
Smash Rookie
Jump cancel grab vs boost grab? Falco's grab range is trash but it seems like boost grab has a slightly larger grab box than jump cancelled... Boost grab obviously gets punished more but which one is more optimal?
*edit: After thinking about it, jump cancel grab is probably the better option because Falco has very little punishes he can get from grabbing in the first place. Also the safer, faster option is better most of the time in this game as it gives less openings for the opponent to capitalize especially on an easy character to combo like Falco.
*edit: After thinking about it, jump cancel grab is probably the better option because Falco has very little punishes he can get from grabbing in the first place. Also the safer, faster option is better most of the time in this game as it gives less openings for the opponent to capitalize especially on an easy character to combo like Falco.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Pretty sure it's worthless in every way. It's slower (thus you have to commit earlier) and you probably don't gain any speed from the DA. It's also laggier and easier to punish.
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Doser
Smash Ace
You need to practice SHFFLing if you want to play Falco.
The Prince L
Smash Apprentice
What's more stylish than a Walljump dair with Falco ?
The Prince L
Smash Apprentice
Oh yeah, sounds pretty amazing too.
keninblack
Smash Cadet
So I downloaded 20XX and am discovering (I think?) a lot of stuff about how offense works in this game.
So to avoid opponents grabbing OoS on you all day you want to focus mainly on spacing lasers properly out of range, and try to stay BEHIND the opponents shield? Because I'm trying to be as clean and as optimal as possible, but shine grab, and multishine are the only options i'm getting that are beating grab OoS. So is this the goal?
Now onto shine OoS, occasionally a multishine will punish a shine OoS but I do not see how anyone goes about beating this option consistently. It beats shine grab and seems to beat all my pressure.
Am I just missing something? Please let me know, thanks so much!
So to avoid opponents grabbing OoS on you all day you want to focus mainly on spacing lasers properly out of range, and try to stay BEHIND the opponents shield? Because I'm trying to be as clean and as optimal as possible, but shine grab, and multishine are the only options i'm getting that are beating grab OoS. So is this the goal?
Now onto shine OoS, occasionally a multishine will punish a shine OoS but I do not see how anyone goes about beating this option consistently. It beats shine grab and seems to beat all my pressure.
Am I just missing something? Please let me know, thanks so much!
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There are counters to everything but shield pressure and approaching with spacies are basically mixups that work in your favor. you wont always be able to do late nair shine or spaced lasers. people will just hit you before attack or powershield or whatever. late nair shine fadeaway early nair is also relativly safe as an option that will punish early grab. Also remember that while shine grab and doubleshinegrab are relativly safe mixups, they can be low reward compared to shine dair/nair pressure. you can't beat everything all the time. Another important thing to remember about shield pressure is that humans don't have that good of a reaction time. shineoos from fox will beat your 3rd shine but its not like the player will wait for the second shine against a doubleshinegrab and the first shine when you shinegrab. It has to be done based on prediction, and even their punish is very frametight compared to what you have to do. against falco, shine grab can't be soos, and you are free to multishine if close enough, but only your first two shines will punish the roll anyways.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9ybib14CkU heres part two of the billion hour discussion of how marth edgeguards falco and falco's options by PPMD zhu and cactuar. i think they started talking about something close to your situation at the beginning there, but it could be before that as well.
short answer is vary your DI on the dthrow and doublejump sweetspot the edge as perfectly as you can
The long answer is if the marth plays it correctly there's nothing you can do. DIing in your options become DJ to sweetspot the edge, can be punished on reaction by dtilt. DJ to walljump sideB can be covered with the bread and butter doublejab gimp, dropping against the ledge to ride the wall with up-B leads into a free counter, dropping straight down and up-Bing up leads to runoff counter on certain stages, and on others the same standing counter will cover that option as well.
Against a Marth that knows his edgeguarding flowchart you do not go to the edge. There are some Marths out there that have done the homework on how to kill a Falco off of one grab like M2K used to do and they're just as good at it. You can escape with DJ airdodge at sub 10 percent to get inside of the Marth and throw off his spacing, but that's covered by a Marth that knows how to pivot accurately.
This is a scenario where the game has been out long enough and Marth covers enough options that if executed properly it's always a checkmate in Marth's favor. Do not get grabbed by the edge, if your techs are predictable and the Marth is quick do not get techchased toward the edge and give the grab. Just don't get grabbed, the closer we get to 20xx the more people will understand why Marth and Fox are the best characters in the game as more and more of our Marths get deathtouchy off of grabs
to clarify: Falco has some tricks to deal with the throw like shinestalling but that's a gimmick that still lets the Marth react to your jump, just use the shinestall to try to sweetspot the edge perfectly with your DJ because otherwise it's doing nothing to gain you a tangible advantage.
Probably the best mix-up option that isn't DJing for the edge is DIng away and doublejumping away to make the Marth guess your up-b angle, mixing up with FF to the edge but too high and he can just charge B, too close and he can just jump out and swat you the same as every other time you up-B. Alternatively you can shorten side-b after that dj away if you can hit the midrange, but that's kind of hard. It does throw off the dtilt timing though if he expects a regular side-b. Don't bother doing it above the edge because it's Marth, he can just jab you when he realizes what you've done.
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TheChocolateLava
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2014
- Messages
- 31
Hey, just wondering if the falco video thread was still active? Seems like it's been a month since anyone did any critiques, I'm hoping I didn't post some games there for nothing.
In case this post is off-topic or something, does anyone have tips for converting small hits in the neutral into bigger punishes? Especially in the fox matchup.
In case this post is off-topic or something, does anyone have tips for converting small hits in the neutral into bigger punishes? Especially in the fox matchup.
OninO
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 19, 2014
- Messages
- 289
"Converting small hits" implies you're achieving these small hits randomly. This shouldn't be the case, your attacks should be thrown with the intention of creating big combos, or walling the opponent out/stuffing an approach. Otherwise they probably shouldn't be thrown at all.
Some hits (walling with bair for example) you shouldn't expect to be able to follow up on, especially as percents get higher. Let those ones go, go for riskier stuff if you're more confident you'll get it (up-tilts to stuff approaches for example). These ones you can follow up with your standard Falco stuff.
Some hits (walling with bair for example) you shouldn't expect to be able to follow up on, especially as percents get higher. Let those ones go, go for riskier stuff if you're more confident you'll get it (up-tilts to stuff approaches for example). These ones you can follow up with your standard Falco stuff.
Bones0
Smash Legend
If you are nicking them with small hits and almost never converting, look at what escape options they are using. Are they shielding, dashing away, attacking, dodging, jumping, or something else entirely? Once you know which option or sets of options they use most of the time, you can start anticipating and punishing their post-hit actions. I highly recommend watching the 20GX match critique of Mango's Falcon vs. Hax's Fox on YouTube. They go over a ton of examples of this type of situation where one player shields the attack of another player. Shielding an attack is obviously different than getting a light hit (i.e. no knockdown), but most of the same principles apply when it comes to covering what they do next without being at a significant frame advantage (i.e. no guaranteed punishes).
TheChocolateLava
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2014
- Messages
- 31
Thanks Bones0! I appreciate your posts on this forum.
On an unrelated note (to prompt some discussion (and increase my post count)), anyone have tips for edgeguarding marths? Noob marths that can't sweetspot are easy (roll from ledge -> forward smash). But I sometimes feel like I'm letting marths get on too often/easily.
On an unrelated note (to prompt some discussion (and increase my post count)), anyone have tips for edgeguarding marths? Noob marths that can't sweetspot are easy (roll from ledge -> forward smash). But I sometimes feel like I'm letting marths get on too often/easily.
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's all about managing your invul as best as possible. You should get in the habit of grabbing the ledge as late as possible every time (right before they're within up-B range as you don't want to get hit going for the ledge). Once you're on the ledge, good Marth players will save their DJ and side-B so they can stall under you. Using a combination of several tactics, you can get a second or third regrab to continue covering the ledge option. You can Firestall (you will be vulnerable if you are not frame perfect), ledgestand and WD back on, or DJ back so Marth's up-B would miss and drift back towards the ledge to regrab. Sometimes you can get success simply by LHing a dair/bair at the right time and/or dsmashing their up-B. Ultimately, these have some weaknesses in theory, but in practice they tend to be quite effective vs. most players. One simple place to start with Marth edgeguards is getting in the habit of shieldhogging whenever Marth cannot DJ to the ledge (and being prepared to edgehog/attack them if they up-B/airdodge around it).
hey guys, quick falco frame data question. may sound a bit dumb. It's about this sequence, Dash-->Run-->Crouch-->Shine.
Since Falco's dash turns into run on frame 12, and you can cancel the run by crouching, on what frame would the shine come out? I have no idea if crouching takes 1 or 2 frames or something.
Since Falco's dash turns into run on frame 12, and you can cancel the run by crouching, on what frame would the shine come out? I have no idea if crouching takes 1 or 2 frames or something.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
You can shine immediately out of run (for some reason lol). Easily tested: go into a full run, pause, input shine, unpause.
pretty sure you can do any special immediately during a run state. you even get a little momentum boost for most of them.
unfortunately you can't do a shine until you get into the run state. so on the 12th frame you go from a dash->run and then you can shine on the next frame but you cant dash->shine on the 12th frame.
crouching takes 1 frame for attacks
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thanks guys
Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
How do you deal with a Aggressive Falco? I feel like my playstyle makes it hard, my playstyle is similar to PP and Zhu.
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you have to be way more specific to get a good response. give specific situations that you struggle with and then someone can help you but "how do you deal with a aggressive falco" doesn't really tell us what kind of advice you want
Bones0
Smash Legend
Change your playstyle.
Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
This is impossible for me but how do mix up your tech rolls, I tried a lot of things even the Mango way and it doesn't work. What should I do?
OninO
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 19, 2014
- Messages
- 289
Don't lose laser control, shoot "lazy" lasers, i.e. don't fast fall them, put the about head height, will catch jumps and let you establish laser control.
Tityboi
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2013
- Messages
- 44
Can someone go over this match for me? I'm the falco lol.. I feel like I do some good stuff in this matchup, but end up dying from one mistake (stupid off stage ****). Any input would be great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJ4N1T75Bg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEJ4N1T75Bg
JCBeef
Smash Rookie
Lol why do you say that? Like are you just saying he should mix up his play style or saying he shouldn't play like that?
OninO
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 19, 2014
- Messages
- 289
Something to work on, platform dropping! I noticed you don't really drop straight through platforms from standing, you often short hop then fast fall through them. There was at least one time where it definitely got you killed (the Marth had timing on that option).
That being said, I don't think it's ever a good idea to challenge Marth directly, especially off the top platform. Tactically, I think you need to look for other ways of getting down, and as an extension of that, don't get up in the first place! When you jump up onto a platform in the first game on battlefield, you're putting yourself in a disadvantageous position and you're not really doing it for any reason.
On spacing, you're playing ultra-defensively, your spacing is basically at the extreme, which is safe. BUT, when Marth inevitably comes forward to deal with your lasers, you run out of room to maneuver almost instantly. Work on being more comfortable closer to Marth (not on tipper range, but just outside). That means being happy with spot-dodge shine when you read a grab happy Marth, shield forward smash and wavedash in->shine if he's mid blade, or wavedash out if he tippered your shield.
Zeppeli
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2014
- Messages
- 34
Hey everyone. I would like some advice vs Falcon, if you would. PPMD's advice has always been invaluable but I don't always want to bother him. Would you guys happen to have some tips? My problems boil down to:
Being unable to deal with overshot nairs because Falcon covers such a tremendous distance with them.
Combo game and all is easy. Sometimes I get tricked by Falcon's recovery (when he goes down and somehow manages to delay it - I'm guessing I should just DJ to refresh my invincibility frames instead of always going for rising bair).
All comments are very appreciated!
Being unable to deal with overshot nairs because Falcon covers such a tremendous distance with them.
- It makes lasering difficult when Falcon isn't preoccupied with movement or some kind of lag animation. I also have a hard time dealing with it in general ... Sometimes I can grab or shine OOS and other times it's just spaced pretty well. I've tried bairing and up tilting and nairs/dairs on the spot but usually I miss and they put me in lag animation => free grabs for falcon.
- What exactly is the optimal thing to do here? Should I also jump and laser him while he's falling below? Sometimes doing a dash back and nairing also works, but it's sort of whacky and situational.
- Often, I can laser but I can't nair or dair approach right after the laser because Falcon is so far away. At that range, he can just nair through me if I attempt another laser - It goes back to being unable to dair with its nair because falcon's line of approach is so great with this. Is there any way to really pin him down in neutral like this? I can only solidly convert when I land a stray hit/grab and go from there.
Combo game and all is easy. Sometimes I get tricked by Falcon's recovery (when he goes down and somehow manages to delay it - I'm guessing I should just DJ to refresh my invincibility frames instead of always going for rising bair).
All comments are very appreciated!
Bones0
Smash Legend
He said he feels like his playstyle makes it hard, therefore he should change his playstyle and see what happens. I think way too often people figure out why they're losing and don't actually address the problem. If you play super campy and it doesn't work in a particular matchup, you should probably stop playing campy. Don't try to get really good at playing campy in a mu that isn't conducive to playing that way.
I'm not particularly good vs. Falcon myself, but here's stuff that I've noticed:
1. Utilt and AC bair are my goto moves for beating (or at least trading with) Falcon's nair. You have to be careful to not carelessly throw them out however because Falcon can always knee instead of nair and you end up with a terrible trade. At low %s, before he gets knocked down, Falcon usually won't mind getting AC baired too much, so if you do bair him try to immediately put on laser pressure/threaten his space. If he can go for SHFFLs without getting punished, he'll keep doing them and it's not a winning battle for Falco.
2. You can jab or utilt, but they can CC/shield grab it. You can space utilt, but they'll probably just nair OoS and force you into shield. Shine if you land right on top of him. You can grab, but Falco doesn't get much off grabs, especially vs. Falcon. Even shine grab is weaker in this mu since Falcon's roll quite often out of pressure. Dash back immediate bair is decent at high %s to catch their OoS movement, but I think the option I use most is to jump into them and shine DJ WL on a plat. If the shine hits, you're set up for a nice combo. If they shield it, you can dip real quick off the plat and space an aerial on your way back to center stage.
3. You articulated that middle ground situation pretty well. It's the part of the mu I'm worst at because I just get hit by nairs OoS on my lasers all the time. I'm gonna watch PP vs. S2J to see what he does. I'm guessing it's just space bair or DD though. lol
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Forward tilt might, but its not something u want to use against Falcon. Try CCing his nair with Shine, or hitting between his legs with a nair or bair.
How's the use for weak down air in combos? I hardly ever see anyone use it. I know weak dair doesnt knock down Fox till like 55 (strong dair knocks him down around 40), so how come there isn't much use for it?
falco's jump height makes it awkward to just keep shine dairing fox past 50 even if you could get the weak hit. that's really the only reason. if you notice, the last connectable move off a short hop at that percent is a bair and uair it's for a good reason, you need the higher hitbox or fox can jump or shine out before falling back into your dair hitbox
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Pr0fessor Flash
Smash Master
Does Nair, Dair and Bair go though Samus Missiles?
Edit:Also if you're on a big stage vs Samus do you play Aggressive or Defensive?
Edit:Also if you're on a big stage vs Samus do you play Aggressive or Defensive?
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victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
H
How about if they miss the DI on the shine/up tilt, and then you do a DJ FF weak dair?
Mywhy
Smash Cadet
What do you guys think of shield poking with the weak hitbox of rising bair? Been testing it on fully shielded Marth and you can place it in a position where it hits his feet and knocks him out of shield. Have not been able to convert much but I'm pretty sure if I am able to get stricter timing I could get a shine off, but at low percents >50 if you get them on a platform it's likely they will be able to just shield again since the bair has end lag, though they are free to hit if you pop them off stage or off the platform.