PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Deleted member]

Welcome back.

I'm probably going to retire from smash for a bit. I suddenly got a strong urge to play because I've been cooped up in New Jersey for a while and had too much leftover energy. However with school, and other responsibilities coming back, I don't think I'll have the time or energy to keep up for a while, so I'm just going to wait until I get that itch to play again. I feel very accomplished, especially watching vids of the 5 tournies I went to in the EC chronologically, I feel like I've met all my expectations and more. imma rest in peace for a little.

I figured you took some sort of break. I think it's incredibly healthy (smashwise or not) to just take a break and not force yourself to do something you don't want to do (especially if you have some obligation). Glad to have you back once again, and I look forward to seeing that Mango post.

gaaaaayygaygaygagyagygagyagayg gayyyyyyyy

 

[JPOBS]

Well I mean, its tough to play ganon at high levels cuz he sucks as a char, but its no different than any other character. You make a mistake, you die.

 

[Divinokage]

but kage i love taking damage! why wouldn't i want that

That would make you a masochist and creepy...

Zhu, it's ok do what you have to do and GL with that. =) Your smash skills can't really go away anymore, I mean I met my old friend who hadn't played in like almost 2 years and he was still able to beat me and beat most players here surprisingly which in turn made them MAD salty haha.

PP, your opinion is highly valued, **** the haters man. I also have my share of those too, unless they really have something constructive to say then it doesn't really matter. =)

 

[Deleted member]

falco may lose on paper

but in reality people suck and personal skill >> matchup (excluding midtier/gimmicks) until we get armada/mango/pp caliber players for each character

 

[Divinokage]

falco may lose on paper

but in reality people suck and personal skill >> matchup (excluding midtier/gimmicks) until we get armada/mango/pp caliber players for each character

Like I said, haters don't matter.

 

[JPOBS]

falco may lose on paper

but in reality people suck and personal skill >> matchup (excluding midtier/gimmicks) until we get armada/mango/pp caliber players for each character

This post confused me.

Do you mean that those players make matchups matter because at that point they are all equally skilled?

Or did you mean that matchups don't matter after a certain skill calibur (which is already implied by skill > matchups) ?

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

gaaaaayygaygaygagyagygagyagayg gayyyyyyyy

LOL you know I suck **** when I don't come prepared, and I honestly don't really have that much fun either.

falco may lose on paper

but in reality people suck and personal skill >> matchup (excluding midtier/gimmicks) until we get armada/mango/pp caliber players for each character

1000% true (within almost all the playable characters anyways).

imo ban metaknight

This post confused me.

Do you mean that those players make matchups matter because at that point they are all equally skilled?

Or did you mean that matchups don't matter after a certain skill calibur (which is already implied by skill > matchups) ?

He's saying that matchup theory generally does not outweight personal skill until you get to a certain level. Once you get to a certain level, personal skill can no longer overcome character / matchup stuff, but this is something that only applies to a very select few.

 

[Deleted member]

@kage please explain how i am being a hater. i'm simply stating that PP may very well be right in smash theory but current level of smashers isn't close to smash theory level.

i literally didn't bash or even disagree with PP's statements lol...

==
@jpobs- currently we're in a state where matchups pretty much are close enough that the better player would win regardless of character assuming matchup knowledge/no luck/etc

but if we had a mango for each character that played close to perfect then I'd say thats when matchups begin to matter. thats when having the tiniest advantage means that you should outright win

as you approach OUR current top level matchups approach 50:50

==

idk whatever gunna go eat

==

OMG zhu thanks yeah thats what i mean

 

[Divinokage]

Because there's no such thing as gimmicks like you apparently said earlier that Ganon is supposed to have.

 

[Deleted member]

last post to kage in this topic who still thinks im being a hater on PP but gimmicks is literally 5% related to the argument and also a very real element of smash and any fighting game.

non top tier characters range from outclassed to heavily outclassed but they have some wacko element to their gameplay or strategy. It could be luigi n-airing right away after a jab or his absurdly long wavedashes but in the end, his traits can only be seen as a special trick that won't win you games unless you are better than your opponent. It's no spacey shine and people who are adept at dealing with luigis stuff will be fairly unfazed by his tricksies

if ur saying ganon has no gimmicks/ not reliant on gimmicks either, then LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Divinokage]

See what I mean? No one can be immune to tricksies if it's timed correctly. I'm not saying you are a hater to PP but a hater to mid tiers. There are no gimmicks in this game, just learn to play.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Welcome back.

I'm probably going to retire from smash for a bit. I suddenly got a strong urge to play because I've been cooped up in New Jersey for a while and had too much leftover energy. However with school, and other responsibilities coming back, I don't think I'll have the time or energy to keep up for a while, so I'm just going to wait until I get that itch to play again. I feel very accomplished, especially watching vids of the 5 tournies I went to in the EC chronologically, I feel like I've met all my expectations and more. imma rest in peace for a little.

I figured you took some sort of break. I think it's incredibly healthy (smashwise or not) to just take a break and not force yourself to do something you don't want to do (especially if you have some obligation). Glad to have you back once again, and I look forward to seeing that Mango post.

Yeah I watched your improvement over the course of your stay on the EC, and I wished you had pushed a little farther because I wanted to see you advance on a few things but your solid play was and is very enjoyable to watch.

My break worked for me so I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as well haha. =)

Yeah man. My hands were hurting after playing so much fox yesterday at a tourney. I lost to M2K 3-1 in GFs (I beat his sheik with fox on FoD, after losing with falco on that map, and probably should've won game 4 in Fox v Marth on YS).

After losing to Bam with fox in WQs 2-0, then I couldn't take the pain and started playing my secondaries. I beat Vwins with Marth/Sheik in LQs, and I beat Bam 3-1. Game 1 and 3 were falco dittos (I lost as pichu on FD by 1 stock, and he went fox vs my falco game 4 and got *****).

Still, the thing that I wanted to tie into your post was about my hands hurting because I played almost all fox all day. My left index finger is actually swollen right now.

Curious, how much do you practice/play with Fox? I mean do you ever do stamina-type training or anything so that damage like that is more avoidable?

Hope your hand feels better soon by the way haha.

Ok play Ganon at high level and see how much your mind gets destroyed. One mistake with Ganon = so much dmg, and you dont want that. Other characters can at least get away or have more tools to do so.

I get the feeling you and I will need to have a very long discussion one day. For now, suffice to say that your struggle is not unique to your character, and anyone who makes a mistake will get punished hard(depending on the degree of the mistake and all that human factor stuff).

it is really a pain in the *** to play ganon at a high level.

So hard to land hits on some characters (*cough*falco*cough*). Well, from my experience

Linguini

falco may lose on paper

but in reality people suck and personal skill >> matchup (excluding midtier/gimmicks) until we get armada/mango/pp caliber players for each character

Which is why I say people won't believe me because top players for every character don't exist. If our community were bigger and more competitive then I bet we'd see more people using different top/high tiers or using them in different ways to push the limits of theory.

I have a lot I want to say on this topic and the way I look at matchups but I feel like most of it isn't really relevant to your post so I'll save it haha. It's an excellent point to bring up, though.

 

[Divinokage]

At least high tier characters can recover from off-stage not Ganon. lol. The warrior's road is the hardest one. =)

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Yeah I watched your improvement over the course of your stay on the EC, and I wished you had pushed a little farther because I wanted to see you advance on a few things but your solid play was and is very enjoyable to watch.

My break worked for me so I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as well haha. =)

I feel like the big things that hold me back are my defense and edgeguarding. I think I'm just not as disciplined in my spacing (lasers, attacks, retreats) as I used to be and I allow myself to get hit more than I should. And for some reason I have trouble seeing how people recover (Fox in particular) and have no sense of how to punish their recoveries.

hmm I'm curious to know what you were talking about. Was I close or were you looking at other things?

And thanks, criticism from you makes me not want to quit again and prove you wrong. ahhhhh >)

 

[Druggedfox]

If your hands hurt while you're playing, there's like a 90% chance its because you're too tense while playing. If you try to relax your grip/wrists/everything a bit while playing, you shouldn't really have pain issues.

That's pretty useful for anyone playing a character that requires a lot of button pressing xD

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like the big things that hold me back are my defense and edgeguarding. I think I'm just not as disciplined in my spacing (lasers, attacks, retreats) as I used to be and I allow myself to get hit more than I should. And for some reason I have trouble seeing how people recover (Fox in particular) and have no sense of how to punish their recoveries.

hmm I'm curious to know what you were talking about. Was I close or were you looking at other things?

And thanks, criticism from you makes me not want to quit again and prove you wrong. ahhhhh >)

Your discipline is part of it, for sure. I wanted to see a couple more of those platform tricks you seemed like you had half-developed or were starting to abuse(that tech chase waveland uptilt after you dair'd m2k onto the ground when he popped up onto the right or top platform on YS was VERY interesting to me). I was thinking more along the lines of your positives not your negatives haha.

But yes the discipline and edgeguarding thing would have helped you a ton, though I think you edgeguarded M2K far better than I ever have haha. The Fox though not so much, but if you want I can talk about it on here or AIM.

Also you have my oldish habit of dash attacking from a tech or a forced neutral position to disrupt their momentum/approach but M2K kept dair'ing you OOS and it happened several times in a row....a few times lol. That was probably the most noticeable habit you could have fixed but there are always a ton of little things, am I right? =p

And I have that effect on people sometimes haha. <333 You put in work though man.

If your hands hurt while you're playing, there's like a 90% chance its because you're too tense while playing. If you try to relax your grip/wrists/everything a bit while playing, you shouldn't really have pain issues.

That's pretty useful for anyone playing a character that requires a lot of button pressing xD

Hmmm yeah I think I just figured this out on my own. Guess I never thought of telling anyone else it haha.

 

[Deleted member]

you're the man kevin. whenever you need help with something, smash or something else, i'm here for you man. aim, text, call, whatever.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Preciate that man! =)

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

But yes the discipline and edgeguarding thing would have helped you a ton, though I think you edgeguarded M2K far better than I ever have haha. The Fox though not so much, but if you want I can talk about it on here or AIM.

Also you have my oldish habit of dash attacking from a tech or a forced neutral position to disrupt their momentum/approach but M2K kept dair'ing you OOS and it happened several times in a row....a few times lol. That was probably the most noticeable habit you could have fixed but there are always a ton of little things, am I right? =p

And I have that effect on people sometimes haha. <333 You put in work though man.

Wow you keep tabs LOL

It's interesting because I think m2k also knows that I tend to getup attack / immediate getup / immediate something. I realized in the 4th / 5th match that I've conditioned him into senselessly punishing those, cause I'd just tech away / center and I see him preemptively covering those options many times. Maybe I can use this to my advantage!

And I feel like I've had a really good edgeguard trick against Marth for a long time, I've just never been able to use it or show it on video. I think in the 4th match, I got m2k with it maybe 3 of the 4 stocks. Teach me Fox, and I'll go through my way of edgeguarding Marth if you're interested =D I think hungrybox does the exact same thing actually, so I might not be the first to do it.



And yeah with the discipline thing, I don't think I've ever seen you gimped / edgeguarded / throw stocks away like other Falco players. What's your mindset when you're behind? You seem to always catch up without ever really putting yourself in danger. I just can't seem to get good hits or reads in when I'm behind like you do, and when I do, I feel like it was entirely by accident or the opponent's fault.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Wow you keep tabs LOL

It's interesting because I think m2k also knows that I tend to getup attack / immediate getup / immediate something. I realized in the 4th / 5th match that I've conditioned him into senselessly punishing those, cause I'd just tech away / center and I see him preemptively covering those options many times. Maybe I can use this to my advantage!

And I feel like I've had a really good edgeguard trick against Marth for a long time, I've just never been able to use it or show it on video. I think in the 4th match, I got m2k with it maybe 3 of the 4 stocks. Teach me Fox, and I'll go through my way of edgeguarding Marth if you're interested =D I think hungrybox does the exact same thing actually, so I might not be the first to do it.



And yeah with the discipline thing, I don't think I've ever seen you gimped / edgeguarded / throw stocks away like other Falco players. What's your mindset when you're behind? You seem to always catch up without ever really putting yourself in danger. I just can't seem to get good hits or reads in when I'm behind like you do, and when I do, I feel like it was entirely by accident or the opponent's fault.

M2K is pretty good at covering options as everyone knows and blah blah hype m2k stuff, but he's surprisingly strange when it comes to covering certain options. Like if you pick a bad recovery or other defensive option a lot then he'll take a game or more sometimes to pick up on it even though he's blindly swinging and missing. I think he's already a step ahead sometimes in the combo when he's doing that though so he can't be forced to make all those reads every time but I'm not entirely sure if it's that or him not playing Melee much or what....


Uhhh I think I figured it out but I'm gonna go back and watch to be sure. =p I don't mind saying it but I like being right when I "guess" things lol.

And yeah I can teach you Fox haha. That guy is mad fun.


Hmmm well when I get behind, I usually know why I'm behind. If Mango's beating my face in I could tell even when I was dying at Genesis that he was forcing certain reactions or I was approaching badly. M2K is mostly matchup stuff since that's how he plays smash, etc.

Basically I'll think about things like that and/or focus very hard on what I need to be doing vs these people/matchups(sometimes I'll forget something important to try or a way to move) and also how my opponent will be thinking and feeling. They get all comfy when they get ahead so they get shocked whenever I hit them with something I knew they would do because I had been doing something dumb/different often and then if it's M2K/Armada under pressure then I can pick them apart and if it's Mango then it's a spacie and I just ride my momentum.

But even more importantly than alllll that, is I never think about the fact that I'm losing when I am. Sure I can acknowledge it, but if I just tell myself I have less chances to mess up than my opponent and to play a tighter game then that's all I have to do. Only time this changes is vs M2K because I know he'll edgecamp more then(and I mean like plank instead of the hangin by the edge he does when he's losing).

Basically, losing means "it's time to tighten up and play your game well while understanding why you're here" instead of "I'm losing and I'm frustrated my reputation and whatever way they're playing annoys me or is hard to get in on now that they're ahead wahhh."

 

[JPOBS]

zhu please explain your edgeguard trick vs marth?

 

[Divinokage]

Uhh this is too much for my head, I wish I could understand all that. =(

 

[Niko45]

Basically, losing means "it's time to tighten up and play your game well while understanding why you're here" instead of "I'm losing and I'm frustrated my reputation and whatever way they're playing annoys me or is hard to get in on now that they're ahead wahhh."

Damn, that's so true.

Zhu's edgeguarding on Marth is diirrrrrty.

 

[unknown522]

Curious, how much do you practice/play with Fox? I mean do you ever do stamina-type training or anything so that damage like that is more avoidable?

I do play fox a lot, but this is the first time that my hands actually hurt from playing too much. When I'm at smashfests, then I play 4-15 hours a day, usually 2-3 days in a row (sleepovers ftw). At home, since there's not much else to do, I practice tech skill a lot with fox. Roughly 4-6 hours in a day, but split in 2 hour intervals. I've always felt that I need more technical consistency with fox, so I play him a lot in friendlies + he's genuinely fun for me. If I'm not fox, then I'm usually falco to help someone with the matchup, or because we're playing falco dittos. . Then there's the occasional sheik, because some people don't believe me about the tech chase to death on spacies is really easy to do.

I don't think I have done any kind of stamina training, but usually my hands don't get hurt from playing too much smash. I think if it happens again, then I may get it checked out but I'm never gonna let it stop me from playing.

Hope your hand feels better soon by the way haha.

thanks a lot man. It'll probably be good in a day.

Linguini

yeah, that's true.

At least high tier characters can recover from off-stage not Ganon. lol. The warrior's road is the hardest one. =)

I dunno. Sheik's recovery is kinda bad.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Geez Unknown you might have been playing too much recently then hahaha. XD Maybe just giving your hands a little break can help them recover?

But yeah having it checked out is a good idea either way.

 

[Deleted member]

i know at least 4-5 fox mains that play (somewhat) regularly that complain of hand pains

might be more of a fox problem then anything

 

[crush]

I can play fox like 15 hours no hand hurtingness at all. And I don't even drink milk (bigger factor than you think, got milk?)

 

[unknown522]

Geez Unknown you might have been playing too much recently then hahaha. XD Maybe just giving your hands a little break can help them recover?

But yeah having it checked out is a good idea either way.

i know at least 4-5 fox mains that play (somewhat) regularly that complain of hand pains

might be more of a fox problem then anything

word. I should probably take a little break.

Oh yeah, something I found kinda funny: All the quebec guys say that I'm really technical. But I think that tech skill is my weakest aspect. Though, in a lot of matches I did play really well (like teams WQs vs M2K+Kage). Even though we lost, I was really happy that I actually played well.

Also, in friendlies, I kinda bodied m2k's sheik with my falco. He kept saying how gay falco is and stuff (though it's just friendlies). I lost the 1 game as falco vs him in GFs, but I mostly think it's because we were on FoD.

 

[Chroma]

At least high tier characters can recover from off-stage not Ganon. lol. The warrior's road is the hardest one. =)

Isn't his recovery debatably better than Falcon/Falco/Sheik's?

 

[unknown522]

falco? Definitely not.

I'm mean, it's not great but ganon's is definitely worse

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Hey PP I noticed you watched this set ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2MkfdwgwNI

Do you have any advice? =)

 

[Winston]

Isn't his recovery debatably better than Falcon/Falco/Sheik's?

No, it's definitely worse than all 3 of those

Distance doesn't matter, options do

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Aldwyn: Post in the critique thread I PROMISE PROMISE PROMISE I'm going in there soon haha.

I actually really liked some of your ideas though. That Bair to punish his stupid jabs(wtf Peach your jab beats everything makes no sense) after the FC Fair in the corner was good. Also your use of Dair, while obvious....or maybe repetitive(noticeable anyway)?, took away his CC gayness in the second game which I really liked and will have to mess around with more. There's more good stuff but that can be discussed in the critique thread.

Very generally though, you did well on BF but you lost momentum and made a bad decision or two and lost. Then you went to PS and tried to play it like he was still forced to be close to you like on BF and got whupped for a bit until you started ****** his CC stuff but then a little bit of bad decisioning and you lost. Game 3 you might have realized this and tried BF again but I think Armada had just figured you out more than vice versa by then....he also seemed to warm up over time which is lame lol XD but maybe I recall incorrectly.


Again there'll be more specific stuff in the critique thread so post it there please.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

@Aldwyn: Post in the critique thread I PROMISE PROMISE PROMISE I'm going in there soon haha.

I actually really liked some of your ideas though. That Bair to punish his stupid jabs(wtf Peach your jab beats everything makes no sense) after the FC Fair in the corner was good. Also your use of Dair, while obvious....or maybe repetitive(noticeable anyway)?, took away his CC gayness in the second game which I really liked and will have to mess around with more. There's more good stuff but that can be discussed in the critique thread.

Very generally though, you did well on BF but you lost momentum and made a bad decision or two and lost. Then you went to PS and tried to play it like he was still forced to be close to you like on BF and got whupped for a bit until you started ****** his CC stuff but then a little bit of bad decisioning and you lost. Game 3 you might have realized this and tried BF again but I think Armada had just figured you out more than vice versa by then....he also seemed to warm up over time which is lame lol XD but maybe I recall incorrectly.


Again there'll be more specific stuff in the critique thread so post it there please.

I didn't realize there was a specific thread, I'll post there immediatly ^^

Apart from that your analysis is actually 10 times deeper than what was going on my mind :°D it's kinda like the image of the two players playing smash one of which is thinking about technical stuff, spacing, etc. and the other one is only thinking about falcon punching his opponent :°D

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

I didn't realize there was a specific thread, I'll post there immediatly ^^

Apart from that your analysis is actually 10 times deeper than what was going on my mind :°D it's kinda like the image of the two players playing smash one of which is thinking about technical stuff, spacing, etc. and the other one is only thinking about falcon punching his opponent :°D

Dammit I clicked your sig again.

 

[crush]

No, it's definitely worse than all 3 of those

Distance doesn't matter, options do

????

ganons recovery is worse than falcons? because of weight/falling speed? i thought his ganon kick made his better

 

[Divinokage]

Yes Falcon has better fastfalling and aerial movement with his Up-B so he can air control from really really high making his recovery better. Ganon is just keep bairing until he dies.

 

[G.L.]

how do you choose which speed you get up from hanging on the ledge? like sometimes i get up really slow and other times i get up at normal speed.

 

[crush]

You don't it depends on whether you're over 100% or not.

 

[Mogwai]

how do you choose which speed you get up from hanging on the ledge? like sometimes i get up really slow and other times i get up at normal speed.

if you're at 100% or higher, you get up slowly, otherwise you get up quickly.