Potential Sheik "Counter"

[LightLV]

1) people hype the **** out of yoshi because his moves are obnoxious, but this EVO a yoshi didn't even make it into top 25. He doesn't have the results to back up what people always say about him. I'm starting to believe he's just a noob trap at this point.

2) Shiek doesn't really have a counter, hence her being S-tier. Best you can hope for is a 50/50 matchup at this point.
thing.

 

[FrankTheStud]

He isn't top 8/10

He's extremely overhyped and his lack of results prove that.

Also kill moves are different than kill set-ups. All yoshi's kill set-ups are extremely character-dependant, and situational. And they're ALL shieldable. For a character with an awful grab/throw game to be in a game with shields like this is enough to drop them 1-2 tiers alone. (and before anyone brings it up, no. the command grab doesn't help. it will never convert into a kill vs a good player)

Ftilt also does not combo into uair, utilt does but it's not particularly fast and fails to true combo non-fast fallers at kill percents with any type of rage + di.

Go into training mode. At higher percets, ftilt sets up uair and can kill at around 115-125% on Peach. (random) Try different things at different percents to find out all options before making incorrect statements.
His grab isn't particularly good, but by reading with his command grab, you definitely can set up kills. My down throw doesn't guarantee a follow up except for up + b at higher percents, if that. You know how I get kills when I can't backthrow at ledge because Mario's kill throw is weak? I read and punish with usmash or fsmash.
Also you have TWO shield breakers, you don't need a kill throw. Find other ways to punish spammy shield-play that aren't follow up throws. Your character has the tools, you're just not using them correctly or perhaps well enough.

 

[LightLV]

Go into training mode.

Yeeeaaahhhhh, if a combo is barely doable in training mode, it's nearly guaranteed impossible in real combat. Especially at higher percents when DI is a thing.

 

[DunnoBro]

Go into training mode. At higher percets, ftilt sets up uair and can kill at around 115-125% on Peach. (random) Try different things at different percents to find out all options before making incorrect statements.

What do you think a set-up is? For me it's a true combo or a reliable frame trap. This is neither, just checked.

It neither true combos and there's actually plenty of time for peach to air dodge or just jump away. Don't assume I haven't labbed this character because I have.

Also mario's dthrow just plan frame traps for kills better. He has actual 50/50s by the ledge. Not to mention an overall better grab/throw and landing coverage with usmash. Mario's reads are much easier to get AND safer to go for than Yoshi's.

Regardless, this thread isn't about yoshi's secret top tier status so I'll let you continue thinking a laggy, easily avoided shield damage(not a break at 100%) is any substitute for an actual kill combo/throw.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Yeeeaaahhhhh, if a combo is barely doable in training mode, it's nearly guaranteed impossible in real combat. Especially at higher percents when DI is a thing.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's far from barely doable, and this far from impossible in real combat. If you don't put in time in training mode and transfer it to combat, you'll never improve. Knowing as many options as possible in the case of a switch up is a key to outsmarting and outplaying your opponent.

 

[LightLV]

If you don't put in time in training mode and transfer it to combat, you'll never improve. Knowing as many options as possible in the case of a switch up is a key to outsmarting and outplaying your opponent.

You think this game has a training mode?

Smash probably has the most useless training mode ive ever seen. It omits key mechanics, it gives you zero control over the AI, and worst of all, it has a combo counter that actually lies to you.

 

[FrankTheStud]

What do you think a set-up is? For me it's a true combo or a reliable frame trap. This is neither, just checked.

It neither true combos and there's actually plenty of time for peach to air dodge or just jump away. Don't assume I haven't labbed this character because I have.

Also mario's dthrow just plan frame traps for kills better. He has actual 50/50s by the ledge. Not to mention an overall better grab/throw and landing coverage with usmash. Mario's reads are much easier to get AND safer to go for than Yoshi's.

Regardless, this thread isn't about yoshi's secret top tier status so I'll let you continue thinking a laggy, easily avoided shield damage(not a break at 100%) is any substitute for an actual kill combo/throw.

Okay, just keep making excuses for your character's flaws until Daddy Sakurai makes every character the same. Sorry not every character has a true kill setup, that's just the game. You can't have everything. You have faster speed than Mario, so reads should be easier as Yoshi, so you can react quicker and punish rolls and landings easier... Don't mettle with more false statements please.

 

[LightLV]

Okay, just keep making excuses for your character's flaws until Daddy Sakurai makes every character the same. Sorry not every character has a true kill setup, that's just the game. You can't have everything. You have faster speed than Mario, so reads should be easier as Yoshi, so you can react quicker and punish rolls and landings easier... Don't mettle with more false statements please.

Then why does Mario clearly do better than Yoshi in nearly every tournament? What magical secret strategy have Yoshi players not unlocked that you're aware of?

 

[FrankTheStud]

Then why does Mario clearly do better than Yoshi in nearly every tournament? What magical secret strategy have Yoshi players not unlocked that you're aware of?

Maybe because Mario has a lower floor than Yoshi and is easier than pickup and play? Or is it because Mario players like Ally have been putting years into the character and is just a better player overall?

Edit: Mistakes in wording!

 

[neohopeSTF]

I feel if there is any counter to Shiek it would be Pikachu. Esam did really well at Smashcon and even Nakat's Pikachu was doing OK against ZeRo.

 

[LightLV]

Maybe because Mario has a lower floor than Yoshi and is easier than pickup and play? Or is it because Mario players like Ally have been putting years into the character and is just a better player overall?

Edit: Mistakes in wording!

So, what, we've been through countless Smash4 tournaments, EVO, and multiple forums around the net devoted to Yoshi, and nobody has come up with a way to make him win tournaments yet?

Simple fact that people don't seem to understand...pros play to win. The argument a specific character in a fighter is only bad because they're unexplored isn't only a weak argument, it's just a flat-out lie. There are plenty of people playing Yoshi (just like you). But no amount of dedication, strategy or solid play is going to make a character with strong weakpoints win tournaments. It's just the truth, man.

Skill floor or "easier to play" is only going to widen that gap. If your character is technically better, but it requires perfect execution and a crazy amount of luck for that to show through....is that character really better? (The answer is no.)

 

[FrankTheStud]

I feel if there is any counter to Shiek it would be Pikachu. Esam did really well at Smashcon and even Nakat's Pikachu was doing OK against ZeRo.

ESAM is also an incredibly good player, let's not sell him short. That set that went to round 5 was super hype!

So, what, we've been through countless Smash4 tournaments, EVO, and multiple forums around the net devoted to Yoshi, and nobody has come up with a way to make him win tournaments yet?

Simple fact that people don't seem to understand...pros play to win. The argument a specific character in a fighter is only bad because they're unexplored isn't only a weak argument, it's just a flat-out lie. There are plenty of people playing Yoshi (just like you). But no amount of dedication, strategy or solid play is going to make a character with strong weakpoints win tournaments. It's just the truth, man.

Skill floor or "easier to play" is only going to widen that gap. If your character is technically better, but it requires perfect execution and a crazy amount of luck for that to show through....is that character really better? (The answer is no.)

LOL THE ANSWER IS YES! Get better as a player and take advantage of the better technical character. A high floor is no justification for complaining about no wins. That's what Zero did, that's what Nairo has done. Zero won Evo with nerfed to hell Diddy... You know why? Because he GOT GUD.

Edit: The game has only been out a YEAR, and CUSTOMS throw a huge wrench in balance. Give the game more time.

 

[neohopeSTF]

ESAM is also an incredibly good player, let's not sell him short. That set that went to round 5 was super hype!

I didn't mean it like Esam only got far because of Pikachu, he is a great player, I'm just saying that I think what we've seen from him is that Pikachu is at least a neutral MU against Shiek. Honestly, that set was the hypest set in Smash 4 yet.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I didn't mean it like Esam only got far because of Pikachu, he is a great player, I'm just saying that I think what we've seen from him is that Pikachu is at least a neutral MU against Shiek. Honestly, that set was the hypest set in Smash 4 yet.

I agree! ESAM's up b play really seemed to throw Zero off. So hype!

 

[The_Devious]

How's battlefield for sheik?

 

[LightLV]

LOL THE ANSWER IS YES! Get better as a player and take advantage of the better technical character. A high floor is no justification for complaining about no wins. That's what Zero did, that's what Nairo has done. Zero won Evo with nerfed to hell Diddy... You know why? Because he GOT GUD.

Edit: The game has only been out a YEAR, and CUSTOMS throw a huge wrench in balance. Give the game more time.

LOLOL do you think there was ever a point in Smash 4's lifetime when Diddy Kong was a bad character? They could further nerf every attack in his arsenal by 1.1% and he'd still be better than the vast majority of the cast, are you kidding me?

He wasn't "nerfed to hell", he was brought from Jesus-tier to Not-Broken-tier.

 

[FrankTheStud]

LOLOL do you think there was ever a point in Smash 4's lifetime when Diddy Kong was a bad character? They could further nerf every attack in his arsenal by 1.1% and he'd still be better than the vast majority of the cast, are you kidding me?

He wasn't "nerfed to hell", he was brought from Jesus-tier to Not-Broken-tier.

Okay, you missed the point entirely and are now giving a poor (and debatable) attempt at strawman. It's okay to admit I was right. Anyway, I'm not going to reply to you anymore, as you seem to only be replying for the sake of argument.

 

[Raijinken]

Is Yoshi on the same list as Rosalina now? The whole "This character seems good but has minimal results perhaps barring 1-2 notable players" list?

How's battlefield for sheik?

Not as good as Smashville, but she doesn't even slightly struggle on any legal stage to my knowledge. It doesn't give her (or anyone, really) as much horizontal room to fall back on needle camping, and she can't make quite as good (relative to her playstyle and kit) use of static platforms as, say, Robin or Shulk. But while it doesn't help her much (aside from some rare earlier kills from dthrow uair from top platform maybe), it doesn't hinder her much either, so unless it gives gives other characters (like maybe Pikachu, and perhaps Metaknight though I don't know how he does on Battlefield) a favorable scenario, she's fine there.

Basically, she only wants to ban it if it makes the opponent anything near a viable threat. Easy decision given this game's stage selection rules.

 

[LightLV]

Okay, you missed the point entirely and are now giving a poor (and debatable) attempt at strawman. It's okay to admit I was right. Anyway, I'm not going to reply to you anymore, as you seem to only be replying for the sake of argument.

Fine, don't reply, nobody is taking your argument seriously anyway. I'm just trying to point out the obvious flaws in your logic. You're trying to draw parallels between Yoshi and Diddy, as if Diddy was ever in a spot comparable to him. No, ZeRo picked Diddy at EVO because Diddy is a good character. Not because he went into the mountains and learned the ancient techniques of outplaying Shieks with a nerfed character.

It's simple, if Yoshi was a better character, he would place higher at tournaments consistently. There MAY be a player out there who's a ZeRo level Yoshi, and we just havent heard of him yet....but what are the chances of that?

I'd say there are better chances that a player that good would have recognized Yoshi's flaws...and jumped to a better character. You know, like Mario. So, the answer to the question was no. Being "POTENTIALLY" better does not mean your character is "PRATICALLY" better, those are two different things.

(And besides, this argument is just assuming that yoshi is a potentially better character than Mario...which i wouldn't suggest was true in the first place off moveset alone.)

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

!

Alright so, and I'm being serious here, can we or can't we put D3 on the list? He also gets a bunch of jumps, some good off-stage performance, and Gordo creates a nice wall while ignoring needles. Dude can also go super deep and still recover with upB.

Optimal D3 also has longer reach and takes goddamn forever to kill. I won't say it's the be-all-end-all counter or anything, but an interesting MU to note.

I would have it he wasn't heavy. D3 may be floaty, but he is heavy AF. Maybe that's a good thing for the match up, but I personally don't know. Thanks for your input!

 

[warionumbah2]

D3 isn't floaty he is one of the fastest fallers in the game. No one in this game counters Sheik.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Is Yoshi on the same list as Rosalina now? The whole "This character seems good but has minimal results perhaps barring 1-2 notable players" list?

No, because Rosalina actually has players all over US/Japan that does well on a national and regional level. Yoshi does not.

I'd say the characters that fits the whole "In theory, this character can be good but nobody has unlocked the potential for them yet" is more of... Peach Toon Link Megaman and Greninja maybe? (including Yoshi in the list as well) Though I'm tempted to say there's really nothing to unlock with Yoshi right now lol
Just need to change up our playstyles maybe to do well.


Though honestly, there's so many problems with Yoshi that there'd need to be a patch that fixes stuff for him on the level of Shulk early on in the first patch, or most recently Robin/WFT if people wanna see Yoshi in the top placings.

Yoshi is a character filled with decent tools, but they're all rusted and won't fix a damn thing.
His neutral is not the greatest relying on a frame 16 move to do well in it, he has no good kill set ups, (I swear to god if any of you say "fair" or Utilt to Uair, I'm gonna chew you out, first one isn't even a kill setup and 2nd one can easily be jumped or airdodged away based on your characters weight/fall speed, same story for Jab into Usmash) and he gets absolutely no reward from his grabs nor throws similar to Samus.
Every character in the game has either a kill throw or a kill set up, or maybe even both (hey sheik, 50/50 chance for a stock from dthrow) He's basically missing 33% of gameplay when you choose him, you might as well take Grab off your controls since the damage knockback and reward from the laggy grabs and pitiful throws is, well, pitiful.

His reliance on hoping his opponent doesn't know how to get out of some of his very few gimmicky set ups or remembering they have a shield button is what makes him "seem" good to people.

tl;dr literally noobtube the character, can mash your face against the controller and do well on for glory while you'll get comments about how broken Yoshi is from roll glory only players.
But if you try and do that stuff in an actual tournament setting you'll find out real quick it's not gonna work once you get past round 1 of winners and face the real players at your local.

 

[Raijinken]

!

I would have it he wasn't heavy. D3 may be floaty, but he is heavy AF. Maybe that's a good thing for the match up, but I personally don't know. Thanks for your input!

While I think Dedede has a lot of yet-unrecognized potential, I don't think that potential yet makes him a match for Sheik. Maybe in doubles where a teammate can help him get some setups, but not 1v1.

No, because Rosalina actually has players all over US/Japan that does well on a national and regional level. Yoshi does not.

I'd say the characters that fits the whole "In theory, this character can be good but nobody has unlocked the potential for them yet" is more of... Peach Toon Link Megaman and Greninja maybe? (including Yoshi in the list as well) Though I'm tempted to say there's really nothing to unlock with Yoshi right now lol
Just need to change up our playstyles maybe to do well.


Though honestly, there's so many problems with Yoshi that there'd need to be a patch that fixes stuff for him on the level of Shulk early on in the first patch, or most recently Robin/WFT if people wanna see Yoshi in the top placings.

Yoshi is a character filled with decent tools, but they're all rusted and don't work on anything. His neutral is not the greatest relying on a frame 16 move to do well in it, he has no good kill set ups, (I swear to god if any of you say "fair" or Utilt to Uair, I'm gonna chew you out, first one isn't even a kill setup and 2nd one can easily be jumped or airdodged away based on your characters weight/fall speed) and he gets absolutely no reward from his grabs nor throws similar to Samus.
Every character in the game has either a kill throw or a kill set up, or maybe even both (hey sheik, 50/50 chance for a stock from dthrow) He's basically missing 33% of gameplay when you choose him, you might as well take Grab off your controls since the damage knockback and reward from the laggy grabs and pitiful throws is, well, pitiful.

His reliance on hoping his opponent doesn't know how to get out of some of his very few gimmicky set ups or remembering they have a shield button is what makes him "seem" good to people.

tl;dr literally noobtube the character, can mash your face against the controller and do well on for glory while you'll get comments about how broken Yoshi is from roll glory only players.
But if you try and do that stuff in an actual tournament setting you'll find out real quick it's not gonna work once you get past round 1 of winners and face the real players at your local.

I'd agree with that hidden potential list. Once Palutena and Shulk get some frame buffs, I'd throw them on there, too, and probably add Lucas and G&W (if Gimr's G&W hasn't yet convinced people he has potential).

 

[S_B]

Okay, just keep making excuses for your character's flaws until Daddy Sakurai makes every character the same. Sorry not every character has a true kill setup, that's just the game. You can't have everything. You have faster speed than Mario, so reads should be easier as Yoshi, so you can react quicker and punish rolls and landings easier... Don't mettle with more false statements please.

At a certain point, the tournament results just speak for themselves.

There ARE players out there playing the hell out of Yoshi, trying to push him to the absolute limit, but the results just are what they are.

In the end, we HAVE to go with tournament results, no matter what kind of theorycrafting we have, tournaments are where rubber ultimately meets road.

 

[|RK|]

I feel that if Kirby can get the copy ability, from that point until he loses it, he wins the matchup. Kirby wins the needle pressure game for two reasons: first, remember when Sheik's needles got nerfed? Kirby's didn't. Kirby's needles are objectively superior to Sheik's. Secondly, Kirby can crouch under sheik's needles, meaning he doesn't actually have to give a crap about needle pressure from across the stage.

Add that to the other reasons this matchup is even, and Kirby with needles wins.

Edit: with proper utilization of the slight disjoint of Kirby's Dair, he can catch the 1 frame on the ledge and spike her every time, because it's such a lasting hotbox.

Used to. Kirby's needles are the same as Sheik's now, IIRC.

 

[neohopeSTF]

While I think Dedede has a lot of yet-unrecognized potential, I don't think that potential yet makes him a match for Sheik. Maybe in doubles where a teammate can help him get some setups, but not 1v1.


I'd agree with that hidden potential list. Once Palutena and Shulk get some frame buffs, I'd throw them on there, too, and probably add Lucas and G&W (if Gimr's G&W hasn't yet convinced people he has potential).

There was a game and watch in top 8 at EVO as well.

 

[Raijinken]

There was a game and watch in top 8 at EVO as well.

For some reason I had in my mind that that was Gimr. But maybe I was wrong.

Either way, solidly underrated character.

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

For some reason I had in my mind that that was Gimr. But maybe I was wrong.

Either way, solidly underrated character.

Well if you think about it, most top tiers have energy based moves, which means G&W can bucket them and get a really early kill move. He also has a 1/9 chance to kill VERY VERY early. IMO, the character is the best risk-reward character in the game because of his randomness.

[EDIT] - Sheik's recovery gives G&W 2/3 of his bucket, Pikachu's jolt gives 1/3, ZSS's lazer gives 1/3, I think with customs Rosalina's star bit projectile gives 1/3, and Luigi and Mario's fireballs give 1/3.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Yoshi seems like a character that gets absolutely destroyed by Sheik. Fair and needles are able to beat almost everything Yoshi has in the neutral. While yoshi can Nair out of things like Fair to bouncing Fish and F-Tilt chains, he still gets mauled by Sheik's Fair chains and his large frame doesn't make it too difficult to KO him with either an F-Smash or U-Smash read or Bouncing Fish after he inevitably gets knocked off the stage by Fair. There isn't much Yoshi can do when Sheik is in a disadvantageous position either to my knowledge besides frame trapping Sheik with eggs. Yoshi also struggles a bit in getting the kill against sheik due to his aforementioned lack of kill setups and most of his finishers being laggy. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Yoshi's worst MU tbh.

Take what I say here with a grain of salt, as I am not a very good player.

 

[Illuminose]

The reason Yoshi doesn't perform well is that there are no good Yoshi players. Yoshi has the tools to make it at top level, but no top player has really picked up the character (besides ESAM now, we'll see what happens with that) and done anything relevant. I think this is actually just a case where the players of the character are not that good.

Yoshi struggles with shield? Yoshi has multiple options for effective shield pressure and has a command grab. Sure his grab isn't that great, but you can pressure shield really well with Yoshi. Yoshi's neutral is bad? Is that supposed to be a joke? His eggs are a really good projectile if used properly and can be effective at putting pressure on opponents to approach. He has a frame 3 nair to punish any overextensions. Make any CQC mistakes? You're getting hit by Yoshi's frame 3 jab. Or maybe he'll land an up tilt and start a combo. Hits from Yoshi are substantial. The sheer damage on each of his attacks is really just absurd. What...is Yoshi lacking...in his neutral. The answer to that is not much; he has a very workable and effective neutral game if you can control eggs properly.

On Yoshi vs Sheik: I'm very surprised that Yoshis seem to think this is a bad matchup for Yoshi. It's closer to even, 55:45 Sheik's favor at max and even that's kind of pushing it. Yoshi has the tools to deal with Sheik effectively. Probably the most significant thing is that Yoshi is comparably lagless and has really good options to escape disadvantage (super armor double jump and frame 3 nair). Sheik doesn't really get anything for free here. You'd be surprised how much stuff Sheik does that isn't actually guaranteed but that is more of a bait or option select to extend strings (as in they can't really escape or Sheik creates the illusion that they can't escape). The big thing is that, if it's not guaranteed, Yoshi is out of there and that's a big deal. Eggs force dash to shield. You can powershield, granted, but the big thing is that Sheik can't really sit in shield. Yoshi will drop a dair on your shield, egg lay, or just space away to his heart's content. Needles are extremely overrated in this matchup. Yoshi can make it annoying for Sheik to even charge needles by pestering with eggs. Yoshi is also a character with great aerial mobility and great options to stay mobile in the air, which means Yoshi can actually play around needles or at least make it tricky for Sheik to a certain extent. The big thing is that if the Sheik messes up or mistimes needles (or is baited into tossing out needles), she gets hit by a well-placed egg. In this regard, Sheik has to be careful. Yoshi is hard for Sheik to kill, too -- he's heavy and has some pretty scary punishes that can and will kill you. Yoshi is much better at juggling Sheik than Sheik is at juggling Yoshi. If you can pick up on their bouncing fish escape patterns, you can actually punish their trajectory or even catch it with a dj up air if you're really good. Yoshi has multiple options to shift around his momentum and land effectively. Sheik's vertical juggling also just isn't especially incredible; if you mess up you can even get down b'd which is super rough.

ESAM's Yoshi that he recently picked up as a secondary didn't even do half bad vs ZeRo's Sheik considering that ZeRo has incredible Yoshi practice and the Yoshi is not tournament seasoned. You basically saw what happens; Yoshi lives forever against Sheik and can really abuse that. I'd question ESAM going Battlefield and I also think he got caught by stupid things (falling into a tipper up smash, getting hit by a rogue up air for no reason, other random stuff). The potential is clearly there though.

 

[DunnoBro]

Raptor plays with Vinnie, DKwill, Dabuz, plenty of high level players in IQHQ and is a veteran cross-game yoshi main. If even he isn't pulling in wins at decent size locals, I don't have hope for this character.

Also ESAM pretty much gave up vs ZeRo and grands were essentially just friendlies. He did similarly with bowser vs m2k in brawl, and we know bowser is pretty underwhelming in that game.

And no, yoshi's neutral is garbage. No grab game means like a third of his neutral is missing.

Yoshi's nothing more than a button hitter who demands the opponent actually think to beat him, but once they do it's really easy.

 

[T4ylor]

There was a game and watch in top 8 at EVO as well.

Regi was the highest placing Evo G&W at 13th. Songun has placed top 8 with him in multiple nationals, though. Better results than most.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, just to put a little emphasis on how Yoshi's neutral is, compare it to ZSS. ZSS has a lot of similar tools, a lot of similar options, and is similarly safe and powerful. Her grab is a legitimate threat, leading into tons of damage, awful positioning (Yoshi does not have a stellar advantage state), and real kill combos and setups. And she still has trouble in neutral because her grab is very slow and very punishable, so you have to be careful with it. Yoshi? Yoshi doesn't get that. He's even more ****ed against shield than ZSS is.

 

[Illuminose]

Raptor plays with Vinnie, DKwill, Dabuz, plenty of high level players in IQHQ and is a veteran cross-game yoshi main. If even he isn't pulling in wins at decent size locals, I don't have hope for this character.

Also ESAM pretty much gave up vs ZeRo and grands were essentially just friendlies. He did similarly with bowser vs m2k in brawl, and we know bowser is pretty underwhelming in that game.

And no, yoshi's neutral is garbage. No grab game means like a third of his neutral is missing.

Yoshi's nothing more than a button hitter who demands the opponent actually think to beat him, but once they do it's really easy.

You're expecting a lot if you expect Raptor to win Tristate locals. He usually gets high placings though. Those tournaments are stacked...and Raptor's Yoshi could be better.

Except that Yoshi was less of a joke and more something he actually wanted to try (forgetting that ZeRo plays against Sky).

A good grab isn't all there is to neutral. You don't need a good dash attack/dash grab mixup to do have a workable neutral, especially when you have a command grab and other stuff to pressure shield. I didn't say Yoshi has an outstanding neutral, I said that Yoshi has a workable/decent neutral which is accurate I would say.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The reason Yoshi doesn't perform well is that there are no good Yoshi players. Yoshi has the tools to make it at top level, but no top player has really picked up the character (besides ESAM now, we'll see what happens with that) and done anything relevant.

Yoshi doesn't need top players to be picking him up, honestly true Yoshi players that's been playing him for years and knows the ins and outs of Yoshi prolly has more of a chance at success than top players.

They don't play Yoshi for a reason.

There's also plenty of good Yoshi mains, maybe not national level but they exist. Dunnobro mentioned Raptor, Me Yellowrello regrahglt Slice Yika Nikes etc. do decent in our respective regions, Zudenka is the best player in Switz getting 1st/2nd at all of his tournaments.
Mr. Doom apparently gets a good win or two in his region, but haven't heard anything since he beat MJG and Shaky.

Trust me, there's enough Yoshi mains doing "ok" with him, just he honestly requires a QoL change for either his grabs and throws before he can be considered a top tier threat. Even Robin now is prolly a better choice to choose since he/she has dthrow into follow ups now.

Yoshi gets absolutely wrecked by disjoints, wanna know who has disjoints out the ass? Well except sword characters like Marth and Lucina, Sheik destroys us still and no frame 3 nair can save us from Sheik's onslaught of good frame data and Fair into literally everything + bouncing fish.
I don't understand why people point out his eggs are GREAT, they're "ok" at best, 6% and occasionally 1/0% if only the eggshell hits for some reason. Otherwise needles in every situation (doesn't fully charged do 11% lol) > Eggs.
The stage doesn't matter against Sheik either, if we're talking about like the 5 starters, SV BF Dreamland T&C and FD. Sheik is good on all 5 of those stages, outside of keeping her off her best stage SV there is literally nowhere else you can pick to get the edge over her.

 

[W.A.C.]

If Yoshi's grab game was massively buffed to where he has a solid combo throw that allows him to combo well at early percents and get a kill confirm out of throws, he would suddenly become one of the best characters in the game, especially if they reverted some of the stupid nerfs he received in 1.0.4.

 

[RaptorTEC]

If the mu is played correctly Yoshi will never be a counter to Shiek. Shiek beats Yoshi 60-40 and if the Shiek wants to, they can literally time you out. This would be the safer/easier thing to do if Yoshi is at the range where Shiek can't kill off of a throw and needs a hard read to kill. Maybe if Shiek was nerfed it would be a possibility but as of right now we have to depend on the Shiek not knowing the mu or screwing up stupidly.

@ DunnoBro I've won plenty of locals here lol. And there are plenty of Yoshis doing well in there local area too. The character isn't terrible, he's just not top 5 like a lot of people claim he is.

 

[wizrad]

The best Sheik counter is a nerf.

 

[Charey]

The best Sheik counter is a nerf.

Even if she does get nerfed out of the top spot she is always going to be a tournament threat, her design in general will always give her the tools to go far and she doesn't have any one tool making her strong, almost every move is amazing making nerfing her much harder then it was to nerf Diddy.

Plus it's much better to run under the assumption that there will not be any balance changes that remove the top character from that spot. Theorizing about how to fight Sheik at her current state is much more productive then thinking about future patches that may or may not change the tier list.

 

[LightLV]

Lets be honest people. Even if the Yoshi-Shiek matchup was 70-30 for some very specific reason, he still wouldn't be top-tier.

But that's silly to even suggest because if Yoshi ever had the tools to make Shiek have that bad of a disadvantage, he would undoubtedly be the best character in the game.

Yoshi's moves have great hitboxes and a crapton of Hitlag for good measure, but every tournament i go to, yoshi players never seem to get that far.

I'd put him on the list of viable contenders without results, similar to Ike.