Potential Sheik "Counter"

[TheHypnotoad]

Trust me, there's enough Yoshi mains doing "ok" with him, just he honestly requires a QoL change for either his grabs and throws before he can be considered a top tier threat. Even Robin now is prolly a better choice to choose since he/she has dthrow into follow ups now.

Overruled. Robin's speed and laggy everything mean that his neutral game is abysmal. His grab has the endlag of a tether, yet has one of the worst ranges out of every grab in the game. What's the point of having throw followups if your grab is so terrible that even grabbing the opponent in the first place is nigh impossible? And those followups are only possible at very specific percents; too low means the opponent can airdodge, double jump, or nair, and too high means the opponent can airdodge, double jump, or DI too far away for you to reach. His smash attacks take forever and a half, his tilts aren't very good and cover no range at all, and if he uses up the Levin Sword then his aerials stop being good as well (with the exception of nair, which is always good). He requires having access to the Levin Sword, the Thunder tome, and the Fire tome all simultaneously in order to threaten the opponent, so if even one of them gets used up you'd better prepare for the longest 6-10 seconds of your life.

Robin has a stellar punish game, but his neutral is dreadful.

 

[Sodo]

I thought the best Sheik counter was to not go to Smashville?

Or wait, maybe it was playing Sheik? I hear that matchup's like 100-0 Sheik's favor.

Anyways. She's not like broken good, more like MeleeFox good. Which is still lame, but at least bearable since perfect play really can't be counted on, ever.

I've always equated her to Melee Fox. Best options, perfect play = best character, etc. Not broken like MK or 1.0 Diddy, but still the best character. Maybe not the unanimously best like we all think right now, but at the moment it sure does seem that way.

 

[Raijinken]

I've always equated her to Melee Fox. Best options, perfect play = best character, etc. Not broken like MK or 1.0 Diddy, but still the best character. Maybe not the unanimously best like we all think right now, but at the moment it sure does seem that way.

I agree. I largely just think a lot of her strength comes from bias in stage selection. Kinda like how Fox has reason to fear Marth on FD in Melee, Sheik's less nonsense (more just regular-type good) if you don't go to Smashville. But that's another issue entirely.

 

[LightLV]

IMO? better discussion on shiek would be, "should she be nerfed, or should everyone else be buffed?"

That's really what it comes down to at this point.

 

[Raijinken]

IMO? better discussion on shiek would be, "should she be nerfed, or should everyone else be buffed?"

That's really what it comes down to at this point.

From a general stance, games are more competitively interesting when you aim for "high" rather than "top" (this is largely done to prevent power creep while still making each character excel at something relevant, see Balanced Brawl's policies for a pretty good example), which would entail a slight Sheik nerf and drastic buffs to much of the rest of the cast.

From a Sakurai stance, more likely some odd combination of the two that never really reaches what we want, but is better over-all, due to the general influence of FFA on his balancing policies.

 

[Sodo]

IMO? better discussion on shiek would be, "should she be nerfed, or should everyone else be buffed?"

That's really what it comes down to at this point.

There's been a lot of discussion about this in video gaming, but I think there's a disconnect between developers and gamers on what balance is.

True balance, which is where every character stands on exactly equal ground, is not actually ideal. Then, like Sakurai has stated, you'd have 55 Marios on the roster and no room for diversity/creativity. Different, more radical examples of somewhat true balance exist in Brawl- and Advance Wars (to a degree), where "every character is broken so none of them are".

Ideal balance, or competitive balance as it's been popularly coined, is where every character is relatively viable in a competitive environment. Note the term relatively. If there is a tournament of 50 people, 49 Rosalinas and 1 Ness, ideal balance isn't possible (assuming that everyone is playing optimally, which we do when discussing tier lists). However, we know that is not the case. As Smash 4 exists right now, somewhat developed but not fully discovered, we have a "pseudo-ideal" balance. Obviously there are some characters that could use buffs to contend with higher tier characters but as it stands we have these usage stats to go on, which are pretty encouraging:

CEO 2105 characters used at least once in Top 8:

EVO 2015 characters used at least once in Top 8:

Super Smash Con characters used at least once in Top 8:

Super Smash Con is especially impressive because in the Top 32, 44% of the cast was used at least once... nearly half of the roster.

EVO 2015 info: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3drvmc/evo_2015_sm4sh_top_8_had_10_different_characters/
CEO 2015 info: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3bg1he/characters_used_at_least_once_in_ceo_top_8/
Super Smash Con info: http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-survey-v1-competitive-impressions.410551/page-86 (Courtesy of @SmashCapps )

I don't know about you guys, but I'd like to think that anything is possible at this point. If people are willing to grind it out with their character, there's no reason we couldn't see Bowser Jr or Link in a Top 8 match. I'm not saying anybody is going to knock Sheik off her perch as the best character in the game right now, but maybe we'll see more intricate character counterpicks in the future. This data seems to somewhat support that claim.

 

[Raijinken]

There's been a lot of discussion about this in video gaming, but I think there's a disconnect between developers and gamers on what balance is.

True balance, which is where every character stands on exactly equal ground, is not actually ideal. Then, like Sakurai has stated, you'd have 55 Marios on the roster and no room for diversity/creativity. Different, more radical examples of somewhat true balance exist in Brawl- and Advance Wars (to a degree), where "every character is broken so none of them are".

Ideal balance, or competitive balance as it's been popularly coined, is where every character is relatively viable in a competitive environment. Note the term relatively. If there is a tournament of 50 people, 49 Rosalinas and 1 Ness, ideal balance isn't possible (assuming that everyone is playing optimally, which we do when discussing tier lists). However, we know that is not the case. As Smash 4 exists right now, somewhat developed but not fully discovered, we have a "pseudo-ideal" balance. Obviously there are some characters that could use buffs to contend with higher tier characters but as it stands we have these usage stats to go on, which are pretty encouraging:

CEO 2105 characters used at least once in Top 8:

EVO 2015 characters used at least once in Top 8:

Super Smash Con characters used at least once in Top 8:

Super Smash Con is especially impressive because in the Top 32, 44% of the cast was used at least once... nearly half of the roster.

EVO 2015 info: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3drvmc/evo_2015_sm4sh_top_8_had_10_different_characters/
CEO 2015 info: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3bg1he/characters_used_at_least_once_in_ceo_top_8/
Super Smash Con info: http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-survey-v1-competitive-impressions.410551/page-86 (Courtesy of @SmashCapps )

I don't know about you guys, but I'd like to think that anything is possible at this point. If people are willing to grind it out with their character, there's no reason we couldn't see Bowser Jr or Link in a Top 8 match. I'm not saying anybody is going to knock Sheik off her perch as the best character in the game right now, but maybe we'll see more intricate character counterpicks in the future. This data seems to somewhat support that claim.

The shift to a counterpick meta will require a bit of a general view shift, though. Many (but a declining number of) players are still set in the idea of having a single main and maybe a pocket or two for specific matchups, without really developing a range of viable picks (for that given player's experience and skill). This seems to be changing gradually, as players are at least more willing (if not approving) to learn new characters and strategies as patches periodically shake up the existing balance state.

 

[Sodo]

The shift to a counterpick meta will require a bit of a general view shift, though. Many (but a declining number of) players are still set in the idea of having a single main and maybe a pocket or two for specific matchups, without really developing a range of viable picks (for that given player's experience and skill). This seems to be changing gradually, as players are at least more willing (if not approving) to learn new characters and strategies as patches periodically shake up the existing balance state.

Yeah that was more of a hypothetical, not an actual claim. A general view shift is indicative of how the metagame develops, though. I'm just trying to reinforce that, in my humble opinion, a minimal amount of buffs are needed and no nerfs are necessary for this game to be as close to "ideal balance" as possible.

 

[Quarium]

As a very dedicated kirby main I'd try to resume my stand on this:

*Kirby does well agaisnt Sheik in neutral, he has decent ground speed and game while his aerials have little lag allowing to throw out moves to space yourself better, comboing her is a cakewalk as well SPECIALLY now with Fthrow! also inhale is very reliable as of the last patch, allowing needles to be had

That being said...

*Kirby can easily escape combos but at the same time Sheik is extremely fast in general while Kirby has very poor air movility, meaning that escaping a combo or throw gets you safe from the assured damage but still puts you into a situation that relies on guessing and hoping for the best unless you are okay with just trading to get away from things(since your aerials aren't incredible on the priority side of things, you will get hit)

All in all. Kirby ain't a counter, he just keeps Sheik at bay somewhat and the matchup will rely on you being extremely pacient and careful. More than the Sheik player has to be agaisnt you, tbh.

 

[Wintropy]

The way I see it, there are two distinct possibilities here:

Sheik is nerfed in a future balance patch, in part due to her excellent tournament results and public response to the character's ubiquitous efficacy (the "short-term" plan)

or

Other characters' individual metas evolve to the stage where knowledge of these characters matches up to Sheik and new tactics are discovered to eventually counter Sheik (the "long-term" plan)

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. Sheik is good, indisputably top-tier, yet she isn't the character-invalidating, world-ending eldritch abomination she is often construed as. She's a solid character with a diverse toolkit and a wide selection of safe options; due to this, she has favourable or even matchups with the entire roster, thus she is widely considered the "best" character, thus she has more top-level tournament representation than most other characters, thus her metagame has evolved at an expedited pace, again, compared to most other characters.

While I would be hesitant to adopt the mentality that "balance patches will fix everything", there's still a very realistic chance that future patches will restructure the current balance so the metagame will be in a more optimal position to ultimately even itself out.

Otherwise, the game is still young: I have no doubt that, in due time, other characters will turn out to be useful, in addition to my belief that new tech will ultimately serve to help counter the top-tiers in the game.

Sheik is good, but she isn't unbeatable. She's just got a very good moveset and a very high quality of official representation: in due time, all will be well.

 

[Sodo]

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. Sheik is good, indisputably top-tier, yet she isn't the character-invalidating, world-ending eldritch abomination she is often construed as. She's a solid character with a diverse toolkit and a wide selection of safe options; due to this, she has favourable or even matchups with the entire roster, thus she is widely considered the "best" character, thus she has more top-level tournament representation than most other characters, thus her metagame has evolved at an expedited pace, again, compared to most other characters.

You put it perfectly, I think my post is kinda convoluted but I was trying to make the same point. Well done.

 

[Dagon97]

From FC to Evo it was thought that Mii Brawler (w/ customs) went 60/40 against Sheik (after KP Joey took a convincing game off of ZeRo's Sheik and KP Joey bodying Wizzrobe in two sets as well as Mew2King destroying Wizzrobe with his Mii Brawler). Now it seems 60:40 in Sheik's favor but idk.

MK is 50:50 and ZSS is 50:50. These match ups are surprisingly similar to Sheik. Pretty much Sheik's neutral is amazing and their punish games are amazing.

Kirby is 50:50, Sheik's neutral is way better than Kirby's but Kirby punished hard.

A super optimized theorycraft Fox is super good but sadly that doesn't exist yet so it is all theory.

 

[shinyskarmory]

I wonder how Toon Link does in the Sheik MU? He has pretty okay frame data, can deal with needles using either his Hylian Shield or his own projectile spam, and he has kill options in the form of Bthrow and Uair.

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to play the MU against a skilled Sheik since my area's Sm4sh scene is not very big, but I think he has potential to be a much stronger character then his relative lack of play might suggest.

 

[LightLV]

Either way, I wouldn't worry about it. Sheik is good, indisputably top-tier, yet she isn't the character-invalidating, world-ending eldritch abomination she is often construed as. She's a solid character with a diverse toolkit and a wide selection of safe options; due to this, she has favourable or even matchups with the entire roster, thus she is widely considered the "best" character, thus she has more top-level tournament representation than most other characters, thus her metagame has evolved at an expedited pace, again, compared to most other characters.

Well i asked the question from a purely mechanical standpoint. Shiek is the type of character that is always top tier in smash bros. Always. Off the properties of her moveset alone. While I don't think every matchup needs to be 5-5 (nor do I think it's really possible), in order for a character to be viable, they don't necessarily have to have vastly superior matchups than the rest of the cast (OP), they just need to not have any significantly disadvantageous ones. I feel like in a perfect roster, the average should hover somewhere between 4-5/5-4, with maybe one or two 3-7's sprinkled about. (which are usually reserved for the niche character, I.E. the grappler or heavyweight)

I personally don't think Smash 4 competitively is in a particularly bright spot at the moment, but the option for patches always gives hope. I'm happy nintendo is rolling out small, incremented changes instead of massive ones. I'm still quite bothered by the inefficiency of the low-tier improvements, but at the same time its very, very easy to slingshot balance characters that are Samus-level bad, so i can't even be mad at that.

From a general stance, games are more competitively interesting when you aim for "high" rather than "top" (this is largely done to prevent power creep while still making each character excel at something relevant, see Balanced Brawl's policies for a pretty good example), which would entail a slight Sheik nerf and drastic buffs to much of the rest of the cast.

From a Sakurai stance, more likely some odd combination of the two that never really reaches what we want, but is better over-all, due to the general influence of FFA on his balancing policies.

Slight shiek nerf and proportional buffs to the rest of the cast is what i would personally hope for. Shiek's spot right now is due to her wealth of options relative to the rest of the cast, and giving the rest of the cast more options is always a good thing. Related, I think this probably has alot to do with why Tekken is always considered the most balanced big fighting game. The game is deeply technical with tons of options, but every character is at least given their standard share of them, and the movesets are large enough to also give them their own personality at the same time.

I do think it's unlikely we'll get any kind of rebalance that knocks the current top picks anywhere from their spot, or in any kind of way where we'll see a Samus, or Marth, or Bowser make top 8 at a big tournament. Here's hoping i guess.

 

[Gunla]

This has turned into a discussion focused primarily on Kirby; therefore, it's suited for that board's MU Thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-duck-hunt-pac-man-jigglypuff-and-ryu.400052/

This thread will be locked as a result.