Potential Sheik "Counter"

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

Hello everyone, my name is Renoy. I'm a rookie Meta Knight main (Meaning I have a lot to learn), and today, I wanted to discuss something with the community. So, as we all know, Sheik has no bad match ups in the current state of the game, however their are characters that can 50/50 (or close to 50/50) Sheik. Some of those characters include, Yoshi, Sonic, Kirby, and Sheik. All of those characters are usually recognized when someone asks "Who counters Sheik." except one. I've yet to see anyone actually work this match-up, but on paper, this match-up seems really good. Kirby vs. Sheik. Because Kirby is light, he isn't very easy for Sheik to combo, Kirby also has 5 jumps, so he doesn't exactly have to be "careful" with his jumps. That means, he can dodge a lot of Sheik's kill set-ups without much effort (Meaning bouncing fish, down throw up air/up B, and other strings/combos that can lead into many of Sheik's kill options). And if the Kirby player wanted to, they would easily be able to challenge Sheik offstage. Another "advantage" Kirby has on Sheik, is Kirby kills Sheik a lot earlier than Sheik kills Kirby, that combined with Sheik having a harder time landing her kill options would allow Kirby to stay alive quite long for a light character. Last, but not least, I want to mention that Kirby can inhale Sheik for needles. Needles can be used for various follow ups, and they also give Kirby a decent projectile. Now, "Sheik must have something on Kirby" you might be asking, and she does. On stages with platforms that Sheik's Up Smash will always sweet spot, she can easily kill Kirby at low percents. However, this is very stage reliant, meaning you won't have to deal with this if you ban the right stages. Sheik can also, without effort, kill Kirby with a randomly placed Up Air if Kirby isn't looking for it.

P.S. With Kirby, you also get surprise factor to give you an edge against said Sheik, and that can help you win sets.

**I Would Appreciate any Feedback on This Topic**​

Thanks for reading! ~Renoy​

 

[Teh Sandwich]

I believe a young smasher from Mexico, (Leo), just recently showed us that mk could possibly be a sheik counter. Or atleast handle the MU well.

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

I believe a young smasher from Mexico, (Leo), just recently showed us that mk could possibly be a sheik counter. Or atleast handle the MU well.

Kirby and Metaknight are very similar in the matchup, however, Meta Knight doesn't kill as early, but is faster, while Kirby is slower, but kills her earlier.

 

[Balgorxz]

Kirby, MK and pikachu are all pretty decent against sheik, mostly because they can maniobrate pretty well on the air to avoid bouncing fishes and since they are all combo characters they can use sheiks weight to extend their combos.

 

[W.A.C.]

>Yoshi

Are you kidding me? Shiek wrecks Yoshi. Absolutely wrecks that character. Yoshi's eggs pressure with eggs is nothing compared to Shiek's pressure with needles, a lot of Shiek's moves have better disjoints and frame data to deal with Yoshi, Shiek has considerably better setups (partially due to Shiek's fantastic grab game and Yoshi's horrific grab game), and she can gimp Yoshi way easier than Yoshi cna gimp Shiek. Horrible matchup for Yoshi. Yoshi's only huge advantage in the matchup is his better killing power, but Shiek is likely to get the kill way earlier at high levels of play because Yoshi has to work way harder with reads for kills.

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

>Yoshi

Are you kidding me? Shiek wrecks Yoshi. Absolutely wrecks that character. Yoshi's eggs pressure with eggs is nothing compared to Shiek's pressure with needles, a lot of Shiek's moves have better disjoints and frame data to deal with Yoshi, Shiek has considerably better setups (partially due to Shiek's fantastic grab game and Yoshi's horrific grab game), and she can gimp Yoshi way easier than Yoshi cna gimp Shiek. Horrible matchup for Yoshi. Yoshi's only huge advantage in the matchup is his better killing power, but Shiek is likely to get the kill way earlier at high levels of play because Yoshi has to work way harder with reads for kills.

I've been told the Yoshi Sheik match up is 40/60... But since you are a Yoshi main i'll trust you on that one.

 

[DunnoBro]

I used to consider yoshi okay vs sheik but after they learn the MU and just fair/bouncing fish more so as not to trade with his nair while doing bair/uair, not to mention just camp him out with needles it's pretty obvious it's a bad MU

Overall Yoshi's just a bad character though.

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

I used to consider yoshi okay vs sheik but after they learn the MU and just fair/bouncing fish more so as not to trade with his nair while doing bair/uair, not to mention just camp him out with needles it's pretty obvious it's a bad MU

Overall Yoshi's just a bad character though.

Yoshi is that character that bodies less experienced players, but gets bodied by more experienced players.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Interesting... I always thought Kirby had a lot of potential in this game... There is a lot of attention to his "copy" ability in this game that really makes him uniquely different in every matchup. I know this was the case since 64, but in Sm4sh it seems like Kirby's combo ability off many of the moves he mimics (and inhale itself) have been specifically paid more attention to, which I think is key to a lot of his play. Kirby has a lot of hidden power, good combos, and quite a few reliable kill moves--my only concern is that Sheik could run him down. Granted, Kirby's inhale is more reliable now (since the frame buff), so he could possibly use that to stop Sheik's momentum, or even to get an early "copy" off... Very interesting thread!

 

[FrankTheStud]

I used to consider yoshi okay vs sheik but after they learn the MU and just fair/bouncing fish more so as not to trade with his nair while doing bair/uair, not to mention just camp him out with needles it's pretty obvious it's a bad MU

Overall Yoshi's just a bad character though.

I disagree with that last statement--Yoshi is an incredibly powerful character in this game.

 

[ᖇᕧᘘᓋᗂ]

Interesting... I always thought Kirby had a lot of potential in this game... There is a lot of attention to his "copy" ability in this game that really makes him uniquely different in every matchup. I know this was the case since 64, but in Sm4sh it seems like Kirby's combo ability off many of the moves he mimics (and inhale itself) have been specifically paid more attention to, which I think is key to a lot of his play. Kirby has a lot of hidden power, good combos, and quite a few reliable kill moves--my only concern is that Sheik could run him down. Granted, Kirby's inhale is more reliable now (since the frame buff), so he could possibly use that to stop Sheik's momentum, or even to get an early "copy" off... Very interesting thread!

Thanks! I've been trying to think outside of the box lately to find some decent MUs against Sheik.

 

[DunnoBro]

I disagree with that last statement--Yoshi is an incredibly powerful character in this game.

No character without reliable and safe kill set-ups is "incredibly powerful"

He's just annoying like jigglypuff or lucario, but much easier to play than those chars so people overhype him.

 

[Teshie U]

Sheik is such an all around good character that the only way we will see a character that counters her is one that is more oppressive to the entire cast.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik is such an all around good character that the only way we will see a character that counters her is one that is more oppressive to the entire cast.

I'm not so sure about that, if rage mode/hard to kill characters were actually good she'd probably have some viable soft counters.

The only reason sheik isn't absolutely busted is because rage mode punishes a non-perfect playing sheik. Though the fact a game mechanic and the need to abuse it is what comes to mind when possibly beating this character is a little unhealthy imo.

 

[FrankTheStud]

No character without reliable and safe kill set-ups is "incredibly powerful"

He's just annoying like jigglypuff or lucario, but much easier to play than those chars so people overhype him.

Okay, so being top 8/10 out of a cast of 55 isn't considered "incredibly powerful?" Everyone mentions "safe/reliable" kill setups like they should be something guaranteed to every character. Which character has safe and reliable kill setups? 50/50 Sheik? Luigi cyclone? Yoshi has tons of kill options--two spikes, upsmash, fsmash, down b, two heavy shield harassers, and even ftilt that combos into uair which is a pretty good kill move at higher percents. Cmon now.

 

[Teshie U]

If something is actually viable to hit sheik with, its likely far more viable to hit a lesser character with.

With her small frame, mobility and quick moves, i cant imagine someone that would give her a hard time without giving pretty much everyone else a hard time.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I honestly love fighting Sheik's, though. To me, the matches are much more fast paced and fun to play, whether I end up winning or not. Rage also shuts Sheik down incredibly early, balancing her out pretty quick if you get a good read. (skip to end to see that).
I wonder if people need more time to adapt to Sheik and figure her out--I've never faced a Sheik player that I felt won because she's overpowered. When I lose, I just feel like I got outplayed, and want to try again.

Edit: Grammar fixes!

 

[Joaco]

The best Sheik counter is getting good

 

[FrankTheStud]

The best Sheik counter is gittin gud

Pretty much this.

Next time, please leave your citation to Cranky Kong.

 

[Powerman293]

The best Sheik counter is getting good

Wow, a Sheik main trying to not let out their secrets? Any other surprises here?

 

[Joaco]

Wow, a Sheik main trying to not let out their secrets? Any other surprises here?

Your money is ours

 

[Powerman293]

Your money is ours

You mean ZeRo's right?

 

[Xeze]

The best Sheik counter is getting good

 

[Raijinken]

I thought the best Sheik counter was to not go to Smashville?

Or wait, maybe it was playing Sheik? I hear that matchup's like 100-0 Sheik's favor.

Anyways. She's not like broken good, more like MeleeFox good. Which is still lame, but at least bearable since perfect play really can't be counted on, ever.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I thought the best Sheik counter was to not go to Smashville?

Sheik is good on all three of the standard starter stages. Even on FD, which is her worst of the three, she can just run away and Needle camp.

 

[John12346]

I've found that disallowing Smashville and Town and City, at least in Round 1, definitely help the most against Sheik if you're using a character who can recover extremely reliably against her.

We have a really good Sheik player in our crew, and he noted to me that it was getting really difficult for him to kill me primarily because I was spending most of my time near the ledges at kill percents, making a secure kill with Dthrow Uair impossible. The worst that happens is that I'm sent offstage, and as Wii Fit Trainer that's a non-issue really thanks to stall moves and much more flexible recovery. I'm sure I had realized this was an effective strategy at some point, but I was only really doing it subconsciously until he pointed it out to me, so yeah. With that in mind, if you're using a character who can safely be offstage against Sheik, a good tactic to utilize when Dthrow Uair will kill you is to stay near the edges of the stage, and she won't be able to close out your stock at criminally low percents.

And that's where Smashville and Town and City come in. Unlike BF, FD, Lylat, and DL64, these two stages have the notorious issue of moving platforms travelling very far offstage. In addition to everyone's favorite Sheik Fair strings that take you up to the platform, end in Bouncing Fish, and secure stocks as early as 50%, there's now an issue with the ledge camping strategy in that, if Sheik gets a hit on you at the right time, she's either in position to perform some platform pressure while you're extraordinarily close to the blast zone, or go for outrageously deep edgeguards that are now extremely difficult to fend off.

Something to keep in mind I guess.

 

[Retro X]

Sheik is good on all three of the standard starter stages. Even on FD, which is her worst of the three, she can just run away and Needle camp.

Sheik is good on any stage...the only stage I can think of that would be bad would be Halberd because she could die to rage earlier.

But Smashville is especially good for her because of the platform.

 

[Kaladin]

I feel that if Kirby can get the copy ability, from that point until he loses it, he wins the matchup. Kirby wins the needle pressure game for two reasons: first, remember when Sheik's needles got nerfed? Kirby's didn't. Kirby's needles are objectively superior to Sheik's. Secondly, Kirby can crouch under sheik's needles, meaning he doesn't actually have to give a crap about needle pressure from across the stage.

Add that to the other reasons this matchup is even, and Kirby with needles wins.

Edit: with proper utilization of the slight disjoint of Kirby's Dair, he can catch the 1 frame on the ledge and spike her every time, because it's such a lasting hotbox.

 

[Kaladin]

I feel that if Kirby can get the copy ability, from that point until he loses it, he wins the matchup. Kirby wins the needle pressure game for two reasons: first, remember when Sheik's needles got nerfed? Kirby's didn't. Kirby's needles are objectively superior to Sheik's. Secondly, Kirby can crouch under sheik's needles, meaning he doesn't actually have to give a crap about needle pressure from across the stage.

Add that to the other reasons this matchup is even, and Kirby with needles wins.

Oops! double post.

 

[Jabejazz]

ZeRo claims Smashville is the best starter against Sheik, or the least terrible, depending on your point of view.

"Smashville is actually... most of the time the best option against Sheik game 1. She's even better on battlefield, and FD it's incredibly hard to fight her (Needles) the platform helps both players on smashville at least. It's not as easy as 'Oh just ban smashville and you're good' when she's good on all 5 neutrals.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._players_need_to_stop_being_lazy_with/ctrnyjj

 

[Xeze]

On Smashville, if the plaform is either on the far left or right, Sheik can drag you with f-air strings towards the blastzone and finish you with Bouncing Fish. I fail to see how Smashville is the best option VS Sheik. For me it's the worst.

 

[Charey]

I sort of question Zero's logic there, he is playing to win so if Smashville was the worst starter for Shiek why would he go there at the start of every set instead of striking it and getting one of the two stages he says is better for him on game one?

Either way I would count that as a good argument for changing to FLSS.

 

[Raijinken]

ZeRo claims Smashville is the best starter against Sheik, or the least terrible, depending on your point of view.



https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._players_need_to_stop_being_lazy_with/ctrnyjj

Judging by the opinions of most other players about Sheik and Smashville, the only way I could see it being "best" is if you can use Dave's Stupid Rule to prevent having to ever go there again.

Then again, his view may be influenced by Diddy's own strength on Smashville. I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Joaco]

You mean ZeRo's right?

yeah because zero attends every tournament that takes place, no matter where

 

[GeneralLedge]

Alright so, and I'm being serious here, can we or can't we put D3 on the list? He also gets a bunch of jumps, some good off-stage performance, and Gordo creates a nice wall while ignoring needles. Dude can also go super deep and still recover with upB.

Optimal D3 also has longer reach and takes goddamn forever to kill. I won't say it's the be-all-end-all counter or anything, but an interesting MU to note.

 

[Jabejazz]

Not even close.

 

[slavoslav]

Dedede is the only heavy that can at least somewhat challenge Sheik for what it's worth but it's still a losing MU.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Alright so, and I'm being serious here, can we or can't we put D3 on the list? He also gets a bunch of jumps, some good off-stage performance, and Gordo creates a nice wall while ignoring needles. Dude can also go super deep and still recover with upB.

Optimal D3 also has longer reach and takes goddamn forever to kill. I won't say it's the be-all-end-all counter or anything, but an interesting MU to note.

Unfortunately, I'd be afraid of Dedede being combo food for Sheik, and his massive size, slower speed, and massive startup/endlag on many of his moves (except dsmash) may actually give Sheik the time to punish with one of her few kill moves. He's also a big target for dthrow into upair, which is one of her popular kill setups.
However, Dedede is not to be underestimated... One good clobber from the Penguin King could mean a stock.

 

[Powerman293]

yeah because zero attends every tournament that takes place, no matter where

Considering he's won 40 something of the biggest tourneys, including one before the game came out, then I guess so.

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, so being top 8/10 out of a cast of 55 isn't considered "incredibly powerful?" Everyone mentions "safe/reliable" kill setups like they should be something guaranteed to every character. Which character has safe and reliable kill setups? 50/50 Sheik? Luigi cyclone? Yoshi has tons of kill options--two spikes, upsmash, fsmash, down b, two heavy shield harassers, and even ftilt that combos into uair which is a pretty good kill move at higher percents. Cmon now.

He isn't top 8/10

He's extremely overhyped and his lack of results prove that.

Also kill moves are different than kill set-ups. All yoshi's kill set-ups are extremely character-dependant, and situational. And they're ALL shieldable. For a character with an awful grab/throw game to be in a game with shields like this is enough to drop them 1-2 tiers alone. (and before anyone brings it up, no. the command grab doesn't help. it will never convert into a kill vs a good player)

Ftilt also does not combo into uair, utilt does but it's not particularly fast and fails to true combo non-fast fallers at kill percents with any type of rage + di.