Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
It's cool. We all have busy periods in our lives. I feel like our board is relatively inactive outside of the social thread, anyway. I can't even find a notable pro Mewtwo player.
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Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Spirst
- Start date
Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ
Smash Ace
Up close is true. We can bait reflectors though maybe? Faraway we can win any reflector battle. You still haven't mentioned how Fox "wins for free" and mentioned characters with better frame data (so???). Not sure what the active frames on our reflector are but it seems large to me.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
We have to time our reflector. Fox just keeps it active. He can't lose.
Far away, players can just perfect shield or spot dodge the reflected Shadow Ball. Only really careless players get hit by their own reflected projectile, because they should expect us to try and reflect it back.
In my experience the best option against Fox, and a lot of other characters, is to just charge Shadow Ball and never throw it. They will waste time throwing reflect out predictively, and we can often land a dash attack or something. As we get better, we will be able to punish with Shadow Ball.
Unless they play Ness, Wario, Villager, or Fox.
Anyway, using Confuse to reflect Shadow Ball multiple times is extremely hard. Check YouTube for volleyball matches.
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Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ
Smash Ace
He can lose once the reflected Shadow Ball does 50 damage since it'll break the reflector. I don't have an issue timing Confusion at all. You only need to reflect it back twice in almost every scenario.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
In most scenarios, you won't recover fast enough for the second Confusion.
Alright. I tested this in training mode. Fox's reflector does break at 50 damage, but ours will break first if a fully charged Shadow Ball is used.
Shadow Ball is 25% damage.
If we throw it, and Fox reflects it, and then we reflect it back, it goes up to 49% damage. Just under the threshold. We are unable to reflect it back at this point. The reflect sound occurs, but Mewtwo still gets hit.
If you throw a tiny, uncharted ball, Fox also wins, or we draw. Fox wins if you are closer than 2/3 screen because we don't recover in time for the third reflect. If you are farther than that, it is a draw because the Shadow Ball dies after hitting the reflector a third time.
At 2/3 range, there is one particular situation where we can win. Charge Shadow Ball to ~75% power. This gives it just enough damage so that we can reflect it a second time, but it goes above the 50 damage threshold for Fox. At around 20%, it KOs. Still a crappy sitch for us overall.
When the Shadow Ball move is suffering from significant overuse, it seems like I always win the exchange.
Fresh, and at max power, you win.
Fresh, and at 3/4 power, I win.
Used a second time in a row at max power, I win.
Small balls always result in a loss for me.
At some weird character length, about 1/5 of the stage, Fox's Reflector double reflects it back onto himself somehow.
Sometimes, Mewtwo's reflector makes the Shadow Ball pass through him instead of reflect it or get hit
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Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
After about two hours of training mode with Captain_Rage_Quit_69, to whom I owe a great debt for his patience in testing tonight, I have a more thorough breakdown of the unique "Reflect Battles" Mewtwo has to endure in this game. EVERY reflect must be treated differently, because they all have subtle differences.
(Dr.) Mario: Neither character noticeably speeds up projectiles during the reflect, so this is all about spacing. Past the ~1/4 stage distance mark, no one is killing anyone else without a mistake. Both characters have time to perfect shield or spot dodge between each reflect. There is no distance at which Mewtwo can reflect but Mario cannot return the favor. Reflecting fails after 50%, so both players must reflect on two factors: Shadow Ball's charge and staleness. Staleness can reduce damage such that Mario can lose the reflect battle due to expecting Mewtwo to fail his second reflect when he won't. Again, no guaranteed kills, but there is a staleness/charge meta at play here.
On a fresh Shadow Ball, Mewtwo will lose the reflect war. If Mewtwo throws out several Shadow Balls in a row, he will reduce its damage to the point where he can earn another reflect, capping it so Mario cannot return the projectile. This portion applies to all characters that recover from their reflect in time to reflect Shadow Ball again, so I will not repeat it each time.
Zelda: Depends on her startup and distance. The earlier she is on her reflect, the better it is for us, because she has too much recovery to participate in a reflect battle. However, if she reflects early on, her reflector can activate twice, which causes us to lose.
Additionally, Zelda's reflector speeds up projectiles it activates. This causes what I will call the "multireflect" effect. There are several multireflectors in this game, and it is generally a good thing for Mewtwo, as he is a better multireflector than most.
Multireflection can occur when any reflect can reflect the same projectile more than once in a reflect war. Mewtwo's Confusion is a multireflector, but it is only relevant if the opponent has a reflector that speeds up projectiles. If this is the case, Confusion, at close range, can potentially reflect twice. This is especially noteworthy because Confusion will multireflect even when it normally will not reflect. I suspect this is a glitch. When Zelda uses Nayru's Love at close (but reflectable) range, Confusion and Nayru's Love will multireflect at each other at an extremely fast pace. This seems to consistently lead to Zelda's death. Why?
My hypothesis: multireflectors like Fox's Reflector update the % of the projectile they are reflecting each time they come into contact with the projectile. For example, if Fox reflects a 26% Shadow Ball at Mewtwo, increasing its damage to 31%, and then Mewtwo reflects it back, raising it to 42%, Fox's reflector has to check the current 42% damage value of Shadow Ball against Reflector's damage reflect limit (50% on a single projectile). However, I do not think Mewtwo's Confusion updates the projectile value for its multireflect events (multiple Confusions update fine). This means that when Fox reflects a 49% Shadow Ball at Mewtwo, IF the previous Confusion hitbox is still active, it will reflect Shadow Ball until the hitbox is gone, because it the game still registers the projectile as being < 50% for the purposes of Confusion's hitbox.
Multireflecting plays a huge role in the potential outcomes of Mewtwo's reflect battles. Against opponents that can have multireflect events against Mewtwo (because their reflects speed up projectiles, or because the reflect has a hitbox that moves forward), it is thus best for Mewtwo to reflect as late as possible to create a better lingering hitbox.
To return to Zelda, we almost always win the multireflect war against Zelda. However, we need to reflect late, and at the right distance. Multireflects almost always lead to KOs, because Shadow Ball is usually doing 70%+ by the time the multireflect resolves.
(Dark) Pit: This one is weird. If Pit's reflector multihits, Shadow Ball seems to lose its hitbox. It just passes straight through Mewtwo with no effect at all. It hit once out of about 20 trials. Thus, in general, there is no harm in attempting to fight a reflect war against Pit, though his reflect does speed Shadow Ball up a bit.
Palutena: Multireflect is always a loss for us if she reflects late. Multireflect wins for us if she reflects early. We can choose whether to engage in a multireflect event, of course, so Mewtwo players should learn to distinguish these two situations.
Fox: The staleness game is extemely important here. A 75% charged Shadow Ball beats Fox's normal reflector after the second Confusion, as well. A second fully charged Shadow Ball in a row also wins. Most Fox players will not be aware of these factors, so we need to abuse them.
Multireflect occurs with us winning 100% of the time when properly spaced. Proper spacing is Fox at the edge of Omega Battlefield with Mewtwo just inside of the central circle on the same side as Mewtwo. Kills at 0%.
Falco: We can straight-up win the reflect war at some distances if Falco reflects late. 75% charge is wise so you Falco has to properly time his reflect twice, and he still loses the exchange if he tries for the third reflect. Multireflect battles lead to our victory.
ROB: We almost always win the reflect war. Multireflect doesn't really happen because his side B can only reflect for roughly the first half of the move. If we reflect once, he tends to eat it.
Ness: If Shadow Ball is fresh, Ness can sometimes spike it up to 52% from one swing, which means we can't reflect it. If we can reflect up close, we win the exchange. Beyond that range, we give Ness a huge heal. Ick. Ness will KO us at 0% with a successful reflect, so be mindful. He could just heal it anyway...
Villager: Dont throw Shadow Ball at Villager. He can always absorb. Always. He will also do 40% with it upon throwing it out after Pocket, which breaks shields and KOs very early. His pocketed Shadow Ball will completely negate another fully charged Shadow Ball. Don't throw Shadow Ball at Villager.
Mii Gunner: See Mario.
Mega man: His reflector breaks at 25%. Fire away!
If anyone has questions, let me know.
(Dr.) Mario: Neither character noticeably speeds up projectiles during the reflect, so this is all about spacing. Past the ~1/4 stage distance mark, no one is killing anyone else without a mistake. Both characters have time to perfect shield or spot dodge between each reflect. There is no distance at which Mewtwo can reflect but Mario cannot return the favor. Reflecting fails after 50%, so both players must reflect on two factors: Shadow Ball's charge and staleness. Staleness can reduce damage such that Mario can lose the reflect battle due to expecting Mewtwo to fail his second reflect when he won't. Again, no guaranteed kills, but there is a staleness/charge meta at play here.
On a fresh Shadow Ball, Mewtwo will lose the reflect war. If Mewtwo throws out several Shadow Balls in a row, he will reduce its damage to the point where he can earn another reflect, capping it so Mario cannot return the projectile. This portion applies to all characters that recover from their reflect in time to reflect Shadow Ball again, so I will not repeat it each time.
Zelda: Depends on her startup and distance. The earlier she is on her reflect, the better it is for us, because she has too much recovery to participate in a reflect battle. However, if she reflects early on, her reflector can activate twice, which causes us to lose.
Additionally, Zelda's reflector speeds up projectiles it activates. This causes what I will call the "multireflect" effect. There are several multireflectors in this game, and it is generally a good thing for Mewtwo, as he is a better multireflector than most.
Multireflection can occur when any reflect can reflect the same projectile more than once in a reflect war. Mewtwo's Confusion is a multireflector, but it is only relevant if the opponent has a reflector that speeds up projectiles. If this is the case, Confusion, at close range, can potentially reflect twice. This is especially noteworthy because Confusion will multireflect even when it normally will not reflect. I suspect this is a glitch. When Zelda uses Nayru's Love at close (but reflectable) range, Confusion and Nayru's Love will multireflect at each other at an extremely fast pace. This seems to consistently lead to Zelda's death. Why?
My hypothesis: multireflectors like Fox's Reflector update the % of the projectile they are reflecting each time they come into contact with the projectile. For example, if Fox reflects a 26% Shadow Ball at Mewtwo, increasing its damage to 31%, and then Mewtwo reflects it back, raising it to 42%, Fox's reflector has to check the current 42% damage value of Shadow Ball against Reflector's damage reflect limit (50% on a single projectile). However, I do not think Mewtwo's Confusion updates the projectile value for its multireflect events (multiple Confusions update fine). This means that when Fox reflects a 49% Shadow Ball at Mewtwo, IF the previous Confusion hitbox is still active, it will reflect Shadow Ball until the hitbox is gone, because it the game still registers the projectile as being < 50% for the purposes of Confusion's hitbox.
Multireflecting plays a huge role in the potential outcomes of Mewtwo's reflect battles. Against opponents that can have multireflect events against Mewtwo (because their reflects speed up projectiles, or because the reflect has a hitbox that moves forward), it is thus best for Mewtwo to reflect as late as possible to create a better lingering hitbox.
To return to Zelda, we almost always win the multireflect war against Zelda. However, we need to reflect late, and at the right distance. Multireflects almost always lead to KOs, because Shadow Ball is usually doing 70%+ by the time the multireflect resolves.
(Dark) Pit: This one is weird. If Pit's reflector multihits, Shadow Ball seems to lose its hitbox. It just passes straight through Mewtwo with no effect at all. It hit once out of about 20 trials. Thus, in general, there is no harm in attempting to fight a reflect war against Pit, though his reflect does speed Shadow Ball up a bit.
Palutena: Multireflect is always a loss for us if she reflects late. Multireflect wins for us if she reflects early. We can choose whether to engage in a multireflect event, of course, so Mewtwo players should learn to distinguish these two situations.
Fox: The staleness game is extemely important here. A 75% charged Shadow Ball beats Fox's normal reflector after the second Confusion, as well. A second fully charged Shadow Ball in a row also wins. Most Fox players will not be aware of these factors, so we need to abuse them.
Multireflect occurs with us winning 100% of the time when properly spaced. Proper spacing is Fox at the edge of Omega Battlefield with Mewtwo just inside of the central circle on the same side as Mewtwo. Kills at 0%.
Falco: We can straight-up win the reflect war at some distances if Falco reflects late. 75% charge is wise so you Falco has to properly time his reflect twice, and he still loses the exchange if he tries for the third reflect. Multireflect battles lead to our victory.
ROB: We almost always win the reflect war. Multireflect doesn't really happen because his side B can only reflect for roughly the first half of the move. If we reflect once, he tends to eat it.
Ness: If Shadow Ball is fresh, Ness can sometimes spike it up to 52% from one swing, which means we can't reflect it. If we can reflect up close, we win the exchange. Beyond that range, we give Ness a huge heal. Ick. Ness will KO us at 0% with a successful reflect, so be mindful. He could just heal it anyway...
Villager: Dont throw Shadow Ball at Villager. He can always absorb. Always. He will also do 40% with it upon throwing it out after Pocket, which breaks shields and KOs very early. His pocketed Shadow Ball will completely negate another fully charged Shadow Ball. Don't throw Shadow Ball at Villager.
Mii Gunner: See Mario.
Mega man: His reflector breaks at 25%. Fire away!
If anyone has questions, let me know.
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Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Thoughts on what to do when Dedede is chilling in the air?
MagiusNecros
Smash Master
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
- Messages
- 3,176
Probably better to wait for DDD to land.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Then he just jumps again. I need to counter the air camp.
Spaced Bairs.
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2011
- Messages
- 3,474
Alright, well let's get this thread going again. It's time to shift gears to 
seeing as how that kind of character archetype seems to give Mewtwo a fair amount of trouble. All 3 I imagine are disadvantages for us due to their mobility and not being too hard pressed for KOs.
seeing as how that kind of character archetype seems to give Mewtwo a fair amount of trouble. All 3 I imagine are disadvantages for us due to their mobility and not being too hard pressed for KOs.
Fuerzo
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2015
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- 152
- NNID
- Erudites
Mewtwo might be Yoshi's best matchup in the game. The only thing Mewtwo has going for him is range. Meanwhile, Yoshi has superior mobility, can easily get in and rack up damage on Mewtwo, while eggs can mostly stifle Mewtwo's defensive game, so Mewtwo is essentially forced to choose between facing egg spam at range or daring to approach and getting slaughtered. Mewtwo's archetype in general--slow, floaty, and big--is just the kind of thing that Yoshi likes (hence why Rosalina is a better matchup for him than, say, Sheik or ZSS).
Mewtwo does have one saving grace in this matchup--the fact that Confusion actually destroys Yoshi's double jump super armor. Still, I'll say 7:3 or so.
Mewtwo does have one saving grace in this matchup--the fact that Confusion actually destroys Yoshi's double jump super armor. Still, I'll say 7:3 or so.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
Screw Yoshi with every fiber of my being. Possibly Mewtwo's worst matchup. Why Yoshi gets so many nice things at his weight is a mystery to me. I could talk for pages about how much I loathe him.
Sonic and Falcon are both kind of in the same boat. We can't use most of our tools because they are too fast. Sonic can beat a ftilt from a third of the screen away because he is so absurdly fast.
Jumping at these guys with Nair is important, but especially for Sonic since Sonic players don't know how to block. Spindash can go under uncharged Shadow Ball, so don't do it.
Roll into Falcon and Sonic. Let their speed be their enemy. Go for Nair gimps on Falcon. Falcon has little aerial mobility, so don't hesitate to play that game against him. Just be ready to spot dodge when you land.
Sonic and Falcon are both kind of in the same boat. We can't use most of our tools because they are too fast. Sonic can beat a ftilt from a third of the screen away because he is so absurdly fast.
Jumping at these guys with Nair is important, but especially for Sonic since Sonic players don't know how to block. Spindash can go under uncharged Shadow Ball, so don't do it.
Roll into Falcon and Sonic. Let their speed be their enemy. Go for Nair gimps on Falcon. Falcon has little aerial mobility, so don't hesitate to play that game against him. Just be ready to spot dodge when you land.
Effective, thank you.
Jrzfine
Smash Apprentice
RIP Mewtwo vs Falcon. His stupid light weight and huge hitbox makes dthrow > knee reliable at practically any %, falcons speed completely nullifies mewtwos attempts at spacing, everything falcon has kills Mewtwo before 100, his heavy weight fast fall combo helps him survive Mewtwo's uthrow well past 100%, etc. The only thing M2 really has over Falcon is the ability to get EZ edgeguards with bair against Falcons linear recovery. Honestly I think its a 70-30 in Falcons favor.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
Mewtwo can combo Falcon pretty hard when he lands a solid hit and rather enjoys fighting him in the air, plus
he can't even recover low safely due to nair.
Sonic can be very annoying to hit, but his ability to kill without good mindgames leaves something to be desired.
Shadowballs can still put a damper on his running shenaningans, and dealing with spin dashes is surprisingly simple.
Simply start charging a ball if you see him ready that move (unless you have one charged already). If he releases it immediately
it'll be slow enough for you to shield and react to (just remember to watch for homing attacks to sidestep). If not, then you now
have a big enough projectile to stop dash ready to fire at a moment's notice. Well-timed jabs could also be used to clank
favourably with them.
The key to dealing with Yoshi is the same as with almost every character: patience. He can maul you something fierce
and his mobility can make several otherwise unsafe moves safe, but like Sonic his ability to set up for kills
is rather lacking, even if it sometimes feels otherwise with Mewtwo's parameters. Get good at powershielding his eggs,
particularly from the air (grounded ones are good to reflect) and make your way towards him, SLOWLY.
Gauge his aerial habits with copious shielding since his only real mixup against those is the relatively non-threatening
egg lay. Usmash can eat up most of Yoshi's aerial offence, even Yoshi Bomb, so that leaves mainly spaced fairs
to worry about, and luckily Mewtwo's is faster.
Yoshi can seem really hard for almost anybody with his mobility and damage output, but the key is to just not let
yourself get frustrated and make mistakes that leave you open to his kill moves.
he can't even recover low safely due to nair.
Sonic can be very annoying to hit, but his ability to kill without good mindgames leaves something to be desired.
Shadowballs can still put a damper on his running shenaningans, and dealing with spin dashes is surprisingly simple.
Simply start charging a ball if you see him ready that move (unless you have one charged already). If he releases it immediately
it'll be slow enough for you to shield and react to (just remember to watch for homing attacks to sidestep). If not, then you now
have a big enough projectile to stop dash ready to fire at a moment's notice. Well-timed jabs could also be used to clank
favourably with them.
The key to dealing with Yoshi is the same as with almost every character: patience. He can maul you something fierce
and his mobility can make several otherwise unsafe moves safe, but like Sonic his ability to set up for kills
is rather lacking, even if it sometimes feels otherwise with Mewtwo's parameters. Get good at powershielding his eggs,
particularly from the air (grounded ones are good to reflect) and make your way towards him, SLOWLY.
Gauge his aerial habits with copious shielding since his only real mixup against those is the relatively non-threatening
egg lay. Usmash can eat up most of Yoshi's aerial offence, even Yoshi Bomb, so that leaves mainly spaced fairs
to worry about, and luckily Mewtwo's is faster.
Yoshi can seem really hard for almost anybody with his mobility and damage output, but the key is to just not let
yourself get frustrated and make mistakes that leave you open to his kill moves.
Ixisnaugus
Smash Journeyman
Just let them believe. The more whining, the more buffs we'll get but don't need which we'll take anyway.
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
You guys should go win some tournaments to show how amazing Mewtwo really is.
Re: matchups, I think Falcon is pretty even, Sonic is 45-55, but Yoshi is abyssmal. Falcon needs to take risks to open us up, and while he KOs early, we have a lot of potential for gimping him. Sonic would be 50-50 if Sakurai had the wisdom to swap Sonic and Mewtwo's weights, since Mewtwo's weight makes more sense for Sonic than it does for Mewtwo. We can go even in % against him, but he tends to KO easier than we do. Nair is undoubtedly our best (and one of our only) tools here.
The best thing we have against Yoshi is the fact that our Fair beats his, so you can jump into the air if you get a read and Fair him. Of course, if you are wrong, you're going to pay for it. Since our tail isn't intangible, be wary of throwing Bair out; Yoshi's Usmash is killer. Also, this may sound crazy, but short hop into confusion is a decent approach tool against Yoshi players trying to play keepaway. Creates a little reflective guard as we close distance, but we usually won't get anything off of it because Yoshi is gone by the time reflected eggs arrive.
Don't mess with Yoshi when he is beneath you. His Uair destroys all of our options, as does his Usmash. I think this is our worst matchup, though, and if I had money on the line, I would pick another character. The biggest problems in the matchup are Yoshi's incredibly safe moveset (even his dash attack is safe!), and the fact that Nair can't hit him through gaps in his non-existent shield. What I mean is that in most matchups, you can wear a player's shield down a bit with dtilt or shadow ball, and then be more aggressive with Nair because it will chip enough of their shield away to expose the character, and the last hit or two of Nair will land. It's incredibly potent, but Yoshi is immune to it because his shield doesn't degenerate in quality until it breaks. One of our best neutral options is pointless against him. The characters that don't have to worry about Nair make up most of our bad matchups.
Re: matchups, I think Falcon is pretty even, Sonic is 45-55, but Yoshi is abyssmal. Falcon needs to take risks to open us up, and while he KOs early, we have a lot of potential for gimping him. Sonic would be 50-50 if Sakurai had the wisdom to swap Sonic and Mewtwo's weights, since Mewtwo's weight makes more sense for Sonic than it does for Mewtwo. We can go even in % against him, but he tends to KO easier than we do. Nair is undoubtedly our best (and one of our only) tools here.
The best thing we have against Yoshi is the fact that our Fair beats his, so you can jump into the air if you get a read and Fair him. Of course, if you are wrong, you're going to pay for it. Since our tail isn't intangible, be wary of throwing Bair out; Yoshi's Usmash is killer. Also, this may sound crazy, but short hop into confusion is a decent approach tool against Yoshi players trying to play keepaway. Creates a little reflective guard as we close distance, but we usually won't get anything off of it because Yoshi is gone by the time reflected eggs arrive.
Don't mess with Yoshi when he is beneath you. His Uair destroys all of our options, as does his Usmash. I think this is our worst matchup, though, and if I had money on the line, I would pick another character. The biggest problems in the matchup are Yoshi's incredibly safe moveset (even his dash attack is safe!), and the fact that Nair can't hit him through gaps in his non-existent shield. What I mean is that in most matchups, you can wear a player's shield down a bit with dtilt or shadow ball, and then be more aggressive with Nair because it will chip enough of their shield away to expose the character, and the last hit or two of Nair will land. It's incredibly potent, but Yoshi is immune to it because his shield doesn't degenerate in quality until it breaks. One of our best neutral options is pointless against him. The characters that don't have to worry about Nair make up most of our bad matchups.
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LRodC
Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
Anyone have experience fighting Link? For some reason, he's my toughest match up for every character I use often (besides possibly Zelda).
Shadow Balls are a very effective punish for spamming ones and Mewtwo usually doesn't have trouble reflecting arrows , boomerangs, or bombs. However, it's up close where I have an issue. It feels like Link is very good at forcing an approach and then just doing a ton of damage or killing you with his smashes or tilts. It feels like I can't really get in close with Mewtwo or I get wrecked by a strong attack since I'm outranged. I usually try and play it safe with Shadow Balls since he doesn't really have an answer except for staying still and hoping his shield blocks it, but that's about it. Any advice?
Shadow Balls are a very effective punish for spamming ones and Mewtwo usually doesn't have trouble reflecting arrows , boomerangs, or bombs. However, it's up close where I have an issue. It feels like Link is very good at forcing an approach and then just doing a ton of damage or killing you with his smashes or tilts. It feels like I can't really get in close with Mewtwo or I get wrecked by a strong attack since I'm outranged. I usually try and play it safe with Shadow Balls since he doesn't really have an answer except for staying still and hoping his shield blocks it, but that's about it. Any advice?
godogod
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2014
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- 643
Welp.. definitely not heavier. :D
Karsticles
Smash Journeyman
I actually try to stay away from Shadow Ball. Better to focus on reflecting the boomerang. Unless it is Gale, then there is no point in reflecting it. Roll behind him a lot. His Dsmash hits in front of him first, making it hard to punish you.
RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
Link is a very good matchup for us because he's one of the easiest characters to combo in the game, and unlike Ganondorf he can't return the favor so easily.
I also think Falcon is in our favor unless the Falcon knows about the knee thing. So...let's not talk about that anymore, yeah?
I'm working on a Mewtwo matchup tier list that I may post sometime if I feel lke it.
Spoilers: Mario is our worst matchup and it's not even close.
I also think Falcon is in our favor unless the Falcon knows about the knee thing. So...let's not talk about that anymore, yeah?
I'm working on a Mewtwo matchup tier list that I may post sometime if I feel lke it.
Spoilers: Mario is our worst matchup and it's not even close.
LRodC
Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
I've always struggled with Mario no matter who I play as. I primarily play the bait and punish game well and he seems nigh unpunishable due to his excellent frame data. You can argue Sheik has unpunishable frame data too, but at least she has trouble killing unlike Mario who can just throw an up smash or down smash out and just end your stock. Luigi and Doc are in a similar boat, but I don't have as many issues with them due to their lesser mobility and the latter's bad recovery.
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RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
Honestly, Mario's the best character. It's not that he counters us particularly (Like Kirby does for example), it's just that his tools are that much better than everyone else's.
I don't know who can claim to beat him.
I don't know who can claim to beat him.
LRodC
Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
Sheik, Rosalina, and Luigi can probably beat him or they're at least even. I can't think of any advantages that Mario has over Yoshi either.
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Eight_SixtyFour
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 15, 2015
- Messages
- 622
Mario has trouble killing. Why do you think Mario players go for Up Smash reads? Because that is his most reliable KO move. He cannot kill you with anything but Smash attacks, and his other two smash attacks are slow, and punishable. He becomes scary when rage is active, but otherwise he has to get a good read to close out stocks.
Eight_SixtyFour
Smash Ace
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- May 15, 2015
- Messages
- 622
Pit is very annoying for Mario. Better range, better KO potential, good recovery, somewhat fast attacks.
Mario struggles with people who can keep him out with their ranged attacks or avoid his juggles.
RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
That's a myth. Mario's Bthrow is a decent kill throw, and depending on the stage he can do his ZSS impression and kill off the top with a Uair combo into Up B. His Dair can also kill off the top of Halberd and Delfino, and Bair is extremely safe and kills just fine.
He can also instantly kill characters that don't ledge snap with FLUDD, and Cape most other recoveries. Fireball can also gimp with absolutely no commitment.
But even if he did have to rely on his smashes, his smashes are easily the best in the game. Usmash is also easily the best move in the game, with its frame 5 startup, full invincibility, kill power anywhere on the stage, and bizarrely huge range if JC-reversed. Fsmash has humongous range, shrinks Mario's hitbox on startup, and kills insanely early. Dsmash is frame 5 (Slow? Huh?) and semi-spikes.
Honestly, I have no idea how this character isn't winning everything. He's considerably better than Sheik. Maybe once ZeRo picks him up people will care.
Eight_SixtyFour
Smash Ace
- Joined
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And none of those moves KO reliably.
Back throw is not that good of a KO move. Kills at around 160 or later.
Up air to Up-B only works at some percents and Up-B only kills at the top of the screen. Still a lackluster KO move.
Killing at 170 or later (on the side) is really bad for a bair. A lot of bairs kill very early. Doc, Luigi, Ganon, Falcon, Ryu, Falco, etc. Mario's does not come close to being a safe KO move.
When Mario has rage, he has scarier options. Dair can kill early at the top. Up air becomes more potent as a KO move.
Fireballs are mediocre and can be nullified by attacks or avoided when recovering. And they have a lot of endlag. FLUDD cannot edge guard low. Cape is ok, but it's only good when your opponent has exhausted all of their recovery options, or has a linear recovery.
I should have said slow or unsafe but I was only referring to his down smash and forward smash. Both of these are unsafe. Forward smash is slow so it is limited for hard reads or situational ledge trumps. Up Smash only makes Mario's head invincible and it hits from the back of his head. I really cannot say which character has the best Smashes, but I am sure it isn't Mario.
Mario has a mediocre recovery, poor damage output, poor range, bad neutral and no consistent kill set ups or reliable KO moves. Not a candidate for best character. Having said that, his strings are good, his frame data is great and his mobility is above average so he is at least decent.
As far as Mewtwo vs Mario goes, no clue. Probably in Mario's favour due to frame data, juggling and better survivability but slightly.
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RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
Regardless of whatever better kill options other characters have, no one has as many as Mario does while having that much mobility and dealing that much damage that quickly. Not being the best in the game at one thing is not a weakness.
Mario's recovery is entirely ungimpable and allows him to go deep enough to ledgedrop Fair (one of the strongest spikes in the game, with one of the best hitboxes) and recover.
Mario's range is moot when Bair outranges all of Mewtwo's options (and Mewtwo's got a lot of range), plus the fact that his top-tier mobility increases his effective range.
Mario's neutral is one of the best in the game. He has a projectile that is amazing at both approaching and forcing approaches, he has the least committing reflector in the game, and he is replete with moves that are safe on shield and perfect shield. If his neutral is bad, so is Sheik's.
His advantage and disadvantage states are also top 5 at least.
I could go on. But to rerail to the thread a bit, basically it's really bad for Mewtwo. Cape makes Shadow Ball a non-factor while also making Disable extremely risky. We have no answer for Bair. With how light we are, Mario may as well have Ness' Bthrow. Our janky hurtbox combined with Usmash's janky hitbox leads to gfycat-level absurd deaths, while he's short enough for SH Fair and Usmash to whiff. We can't gimp him. We can't land. We can't escape. If there's a worse matchup in the game, I couldn't name it (but chances are it involves Mario).
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Eight_SixtyFour
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 15, 2015
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He is not the best at anything, nor is he very good in a lot of things. So I do not see how he is the best character.
Shiek, Pikachu, Fox, Rosalina, ZSS, Falcon. Plenty of characters with better mobility specs that have KO setups or better KO potential.
You can challenge the Up-B. Once Mario loses his double jump, he does not have a lot of options.
Fair is slow and avoidable. Why would any Mario do this off a ledge drop?
Mario's neutral is not comparable to Sheik's. Sheik has very safe aerials with good range, an unseeable, fast projectile with low lag, great mobility to weave in and out, a fantastic edge guarding/punishing tool in bouncing fish and great pressure. Mario has a laggy, low durability fireball, slightly above average mobility, limited edge guarding and poor range.
The matchup is still probably in Mario's favour, but I would not say it is the worst for Mewtwo. Shiek seems like the worst matchup.
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RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
So here's that matchup list. It's basically based on how I feel going up against each character at the moment. Subject to change, naturally.
__________
When you factor in ground speed, traction, air speed, air control, and fall speed, Mario might have the best overall mobility in the game. He has the 2nd best frame data, the best gimping tool in the game in Cape, the best anti-air in Usmash, one of the best projectiles in Fireball (not laggy at all when shorthopped) and likely the best combo game or close to it. And what he's not the best in, he's still extremely good at. He basically gets to be a jack-of-all-trades, master of most.
But time will tell I guess. I'm guessing once we get closer to a consensus total matchup chart Mario will start to stand out from the crowd.
*Puts controller down, shakes hand, walks away* Tier:
Foreboding Sense of Dread Tier:
Kind of Annoying Tier:
Not Too Bad Tier:
Yes Please Tier:
Foreboding Sense of Dread Tier:
Kind of Annoying Tier:
Not Too Bad Tier:
Yes Please Tier:
Sheik is at least tall, and doesn't rack up damage nearly as fast. She also is not a kill threat at mid percent (even for Mewtwo).
When you factor in ground speed, traction, air speed, air control, and fall speed, Mario might have the best overall mobility in the game. He has the 2nd best frame data, the best gimping tool in the game in Cape, the best anti-air in Usmash, one of the best projectiles in Fireball (not laggy at all when shorthopped) and likely the best combo game or close to it. And what he's not the best in, he's still extremely good at. He basically gets to be a jack-of-all-trades, master of most.
But time will tell I guess. I'm guessing once we get closer to a consensus total matchup chart Mario will start to stand out from the crowd.
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LRodC
Smashing With Mewtwo and Cloud
In terms of sheer mobility, I think Yoshi, Sonic, and Captain Falcon are all pretty up there. Mario's is good but it's not top in the game good.
I'm not sure what to say. I think Mario can potentially be top 5 in this game due to all his tools, but we'll see.
I'm not sure what to say. I think Mario can potentially be top 5 in this game due to all his tools, but we'll see.
meleebrawler
Smash Hero
Mario's cape is far from unpunishable. If he reflects a shadow ball and you're standing at the correct distance, you can reflect
it back and he won't have time to reflect it back again, or even shield. And as long as you're not obvious with how you use
disable, you shouldn't be worrying too much about it getting reflected. Most of the time disable reflects happen
against those whose reflectors double as attacks (eg. Falco's, Ness baseball bat etc.) and happen by accident.
SH fair and usmash missing a standing Mario is kind of moot when you realize Mario spends about 70% of the match
in the air. Marios almost never approach from the ground unless it's to grab you. And even then, his shorthop is a bit
high which makes it a bit more difficult for him to apply pressure. Oh, and because his fair is so slow it's fairly obvious
when Mario will be going for a bair.
How do Fireballs force Mewtwo to approach? They fire fairly slowly so if Mario just sits back and throws them out
you can just charge a shadow ball while shielding every fireball that comes your way. Now you have a projectile
that will easily plow through his. He can try to reflect of course, but remember what I said about the ideal range.
As for approaching they can be a bit annoying, but doing so means he's facing you, and that means he can't use his
bair against you, and the rest of his options lose to good spacing (nair, dair) or are just too slow (fair).
Mario's options are only really safe if you respect them too much, that is, you sit in your shield in anticipation of
what he'll do and let him space or cross up your shield or let him grab you. The things you DO need to respect
are usmash and nair as a combo breaker. Oh yeah, because of his slow fair he's not very good at hitting Mewtwo
out of confusion or dthrow followups. As for landing against his usmash, he's just slow enough that we can escape further
followups with a well-timed confusion, or escape with a teleport provided he doesn't anticipate it of course. Few characters
can challenge that headbutt directly, those being characters with very disjointed dairs like Link.
In short, you just have to stay light on your feet so that Mario can't get a solid bead on you, because despite what you may think
we do outspace him with our normals in general. Make a concerted effort to not let him get in your zone and you'll
be on the way to victory.
If you ask me, Fox is more difficult because he IS fast enough to make landing very difficult, his juggles are lethal
and he has annoying jab setups into kill moves. Plus he can easily dodge after reflecting.
Eight_SixtyFour
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 15, 2015
- Messages
- 622
But she can crouch, therefore lowering her profile significantly and she can crawl. Sheik being tall is a moot point when she can avoid a lot of attacks in various ways. And she can kill Mewtwo quickly since he's so light and large.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Mario has the second best mobility, even after factoring all of those stats. Honestly, his air speed is the only stat this is significant.
Best gimping tool goes to Sheik: Bouncing Fish. And there are gimping tools that are better than FLUDD or Cape (Luigi Cyclone and Dr. Tornado) and characters with better edge-guarding (e.g. Pikachu can bair low at low risk).
Up-Smash is nice, but I am not sure if it's the best anti-air. A lot of Up Airs can serve as better anti-airs (e.g. Luma Up-Air) and there are more rewarding anti-airs with better stats (e.g. Ryu's True Shoryuken).
Fireball is pretty laggy, especially when short hopped. If you're talking about the speed at which it comes out, it's not impressive either. It doesn't cover a lot of space since it is heavily affected by gravity.
Combo game: It's fine, but character specific and percent specific. Very overrated.
He is not a jack of all trades, since he cannot zone very well and gets little reward off of zoning. He's a pressure heavy character with very specific combos. He is in no way master of most things.
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RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
This is not how it works in practice. I probably have more experience with this matchup than anyone else (my brother mains Mario and we're both top 10 in WI).
The Cape thing is correct, but you have the emphasis reversed. It's not that we just have to find the range and we're golden; it's that as long as the Mario knows the range, he's golden. It's much easier for him to slip in and out of that range to bait or predict a Shadow Ball than it is for us to line it up perfectly with where he'll be. The risk is way too great to make charged SB relevant in the matchup, and Cape is so lagless and noncommittal (he can even keep momentum while approaching) that uncharged SB, the foundation of our neutral, is also rendered useless.
Cape is also great against followups, and in customs Gust Cape is often thrown out in neutral, so it doesn't require a hard read to counter Disable.
As for Mario in the air, he's not just going to jump from the other side of the stage and land on you. A good Mario will mostly use air approaches but will mix up when he enters the air. He might rush in and feign a grab and jump at the last second. As for Bair being predictable, RAR Bair exists, and predictability doesn't really matter if we have no counter for it to begin with.
Fireballs combined with Cape force us to approach. Both characters have a projectile and a reflector, but Mario's are faster and Mario is faster, meaning he can position himself to punish reflection or charged SB much easier. I would argue only Wario (half the game anyway) and Sheik force approaches better than the Marios, and Mewtwo is 5th or maybe 7th behind the Links.
Mario does not lose to spacing because his top tier mobility gives him more effective range, and any spacing that would keep him out pales in comparison to his reward on getting in. This is even true for Mewtwo, who has pretty good reward.
I mained Link before Mewtwo, and this kind of sounds like my general theory of that matchup for a long time. I thought Link won the matchup due to his sizable range advantage. It wasn't the case because I would do 35% stuffing his approach for a full minute, and then he would get in and do 70%.
Fox is cancer, but he's not as bad as Mario. He's way, way less safe.
All Mewtwo really cares about is hurtbox size. He can do some really mean things to tall characters, and that makes those matchups a lot better. Mario, meanwhile is just short enough to be...short enough.
Usmash is much less commitment, and much less counterplay, and similar reward to all the other top tier anti-airs.
Due to it's trajectory, Fireball actually covers more vertical space than Charged Shadow Ball. Its slow speed is a benefit, because Mario can follow it and punish any reaction. It also is a nearly foolproof way to reset from high offstage. And it gimps.
And I don't know that I've ever been hit by a Bouncing Fish ever, aside from the combo out of Fthrow. Move is massively telegraphed and overrated.
But anyway, I think it's just a matter of experience. There are not too many high-level Marios for how many people main Mario. He doesn't get a lot of stream time, and even his top players are sometimes dubious (Ally dropped a game to Villager ledgestall when Mario beats it for free). Maybe when Sheik gets nerfed again we'll welcome our Mario overlords.
Sparky15
Smash Journeyman
My experience with Ally's Mario was frightening. I just kept getting pinned down from Mario's quick attacks and just overall safe moves. Up-Smash, in my opinion, is Mewtwo's worst nightmare, and Mewtwo's sometimes stupid hitboxes won't cut it for him. Then again, I dunno how to perform in this particular MU.
Nobie
Smash Champion
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- SDShamshel
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I think there's some misunderstanding when it comes to Shadow Ball vs. Cape in this matchup.
If you use Confusion on a (non-stale) Caped Shadow Ball, it's not that Mario might not have time to Cape it again, it's that he CAN'T Cape it anymore. Shadow Ball exceeds the max damage that a reflector withstand and it instead eats through the Cape.
If you use Confusion on a (non-stale) Caped Shadow Ball, it's not that Mario might not have time to Cape it again, it's that he CAN'T Cape it anymore. Shadow Ball exceeds the max damage that a reflector withstand and it instead eats through the Cape.
RayNoire
Smash Journeyman
The problem is that Mario is considerably more mobile and his reflector is considerably less laggy, giving him considerably more ability to position himself to where SB can't be re-reflected.
Charged SB is an extreme risk in this matchup that does not favor us at all, while uncharged SB (the foundation of our neutral in many matchups) is just pointless because Cape is so lagless and we can't punish it from mid or long range.
ImaClubYou
Smash Lord
From my experience mewtwo excels against players with hyper aggressive play styles. This includes mario, falcon, and sonic. I tend to throw an uncharged sb during the beginning in case they try to rush me down. Other than that, it is definitely the keep away game.
Mewtwos down throw doesn't combo into anything. But it's secretly an amazing move. Most players these days know that so they may try to come down with an air dodge or even a counter attack expecting a fair to come out. This is where we have the option to either throw out a forward smash to cover both options or go for an air chase if they double jump instead. A lot of people never expect up air strings. You can effectively string 2-3 up airs in a row against characters who struggle to get down.
These rules apply to confusion as we'll. when you're using it to not reflect. Move and instead to command grab your opponent, you get the same option altogether from down throw with the huge bonus of it having set knock back and the chance for a tech chase if you catch em off guard. Be aware that this move won't work on some characters as they could pretty much attack the moment they stop spinning. This move needs to be used carefully.
Shadow ball. It's one of mewtwo a redeeming qualities really. Just having your hands glow with purple fear already makes your opponent tremble with agony changing their playstyle sometimes. Add that it kills quite early and you've got yourself a high tier projectile. For characters with reflectors. Condition them. Throw out a lot of small ones early on. Throw short hop fully charged shadow balls to avoid the reflected hits. This will condition your opponent to reflect a lot. Use that opportunity for grabs and set up air chases. I like to intentionally telegraph my throws like being at a certain distance or not moving for a few seconds before throwing. When your opponent reads those you know it's time to lay the smack down. And once again a last second shadow ball always catches someone off guard.
Down tilt. One of my favorite moves from mewtwo. You can spam it. At early percentage it true combos into up smash. And you can start chasing your opponent with more up smashes or up airs.
Disable. I use this as a surprise factor. I rarely have a moment to use this move but when I do it's when I've got my opponents mindset down. Usually do this against characters that like to run towards you really fast. Fox, falcon, and sonic sound about right. Usually ends the game at that moment.
Back air. Amazing move. Just use it off stage.
Nair. It's weird in that it sends opponents behind you if you land with it still active. Turn around grab works. Also shield into turn around grab works too.
Up throw. When your opponents at 140 and you have a little rage going on, you can already tell you and your opponent are playing a different game now.
Teleport. My last point to throw out. It's quite handy to avoid attacks and escape juggles if used correctly. Can't mention how many times it has saved me from death combos and death in general. I like to swag out with it too and edge cancel with it into any move I see fit.
Other than that, I had a few good runs with falcon and sonic today. Had no dropped games against them aside from one where I suicided twice. Mewtwo a teleport is amazing when the underside of the stage doesn't freakin bounce you off in the completely opposite direction of the ledge.
I start a game off with a uncharged shadow ball followed by passively charging the ball mixing it in with my approaches and spacing. Once it's fully charged, the game has already changed in your opponents mind in that no matter what don't get hit by that. That creates pressure and no all you have to do is play keep away. Read the preemptive shields with dash grabs, follow up with your throws and repeat the cycle. Once they're off stage, I like to throw a shadow ball, charged or uncharged, and then cover the low recovery, for characters like falcon in which I have a harder time edge guarding as mewtwo, a falling back air towards the stage seems to work. That or read the get up option from the ledge . Up smash can cover all of them.
Finally, do your best to space yourself and control the pace of the match. You want them playing at your speed. Mewtwo will struggle immensely if you fail to do so. Once falcon gets his up air strings on you it's a hard time getting back.
Mewtwos down throw doesn't combo into anything. But it's secretly an amazing move. Most players these days know that so they may try to come down with an air dodge or even a counter attack expecting a fair to come out. This is where we have the option to either throw out a forward smash to cover both options or go for an air chase if they double jump instead. A lot of people never expect up air strings. You can effectively string 2-3 up airs in a row against characters who struggle to get down.
These rules apply to confusion as we'll. when you're using it to not reflect. Move and instead to command grab your opponent, you get the same option altogether from down throw with the huge bonus of it having set knock back and the chance for a tech chase if you catch em off guard. Be aware that this move won't work on some characters as they could pretty much attack the moment they stop spinning. This move needs to be used carefully.
Shadow ball. It's one of mewtwo a redeeming qualities really. Just having your hands glow with purple fear already makes your opponent tremble with agony changing their playstyle sometimes. Add that it kills quite early and you've got yourself a high tier projectile. For characters with reflectors. Condition them. Throw out a lot of small ones early on. Throw short hop fully charged shadow balls to avoid the reflected hits. This will condition your opponent to reflect a lot. Use that opportunity for grabs and set up air chases. I like to intentionally telegraph my throws like being at a certain distance or not moving for a few seconds before throwing. When your opponent reads those you know it's time to lay the smack down. And once again a last second shadow ball always catches someone off guard.
Down tilt. One of my favorite moves from mewtwo. You can spam it. At early percentage it true combos into up smash. And you can start chasing your opponent with more up smashes or up airs.
Disable. I use this as a surprise factor. I rarely have a moment to use this move but when I do it's when I've got my opponents mindset down. Usually do this against characters that like to run towards you really fast. Fox, falcon, and sonic sound about right. Usually ends the game at that moment.
Back air. Amazing move. Just use it off stage.
Nair. It's weird in that it sends opponents behind you if you land with it still active. Turn around grab works. Also shield into turn around grab works too.
Up throw. When your opponents at 140 and you have a little rage going on, you can already tell you and your opponent are playing a different game now.
Teleport. My last point to throw out. It's quite handy to avoid attacks and escape juggles if used correctly. Can't mention how many times it has saved me from death combos and death in general. I like to swag out with it too and edge cancel with it into any move I see fit.
Other than that, I had a few good runs with falcon and sonic today. Had no dropped games against them aside from one where I suicided twice. Mewtwo a teleport is amazing when the underside of the stage doesn't freakin bounce you off in the completely opposite direction of the ledge.
I start a game off with a uncharged shadow ball followed by passively charging the ball mixing it in with my approaches and spacing. Once it's fully charged, the game has already changed in your opponents mind in that no matter what don't get hit by that. That creates pressure and no all you have to do is play keep away. Read the preemptive shields with dash grabs, follow up with your throws and repeat the cycle. Once they're off stage, I like to throw a shadow ball, charged or uncharged, and then cover the low recovery, for characters like falcon in which I have a harder time edge guarding as mewtwo, a falling back air towards the stage seems to work. That or read the get up option from the ledge . Up smash can cover all of them.
Finally, do your best to space yourself and control the pace of the match. You want them playing at your speed. Mewtwo will struggle immensely if you fail to do so. Once falcon gets his up air strings on you it's a hard time getting back.