Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Chiroz]

I'll watch these videos in more detail but I can see why this Yoshi isn't fun to play against. Full hop Fairs and random Down-Bs' online.

You seem to be primarily defensive, whereas Raykz tends to be less defensive but utilizes more of Mewtwo's moves.

I am always aggresive. That's not always a good thing. It's just my playstyle, which is why I am picking up Roy as a second main.

I was really tired (and annoyed) when I played the Yoshi though, I had only slept 3-4 hours. I am fairly certain I can beat him on a more calm (and offline) scenario but it will take a lot of concentration in terms of shielding and just overall spacing. Something I just couldn't do that day.

I have already told him to rematch me but I have not been able to get the time. I've just been practicing at tournies and at Smashfests all week long for EVO.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

I am always aggresive. That's not always a good thing. It's just my playstyle, which is why I am picking up Roy as a second main.

I was really tired (and annoyed) when I played the Yoshi though, I had only slept 3-4 hours. I am fairly certain I can beat him on a more calm (and offline) scenario but it will take a lot of concentration in terms of shielding and just overall spacing. Something I just couldn't do that day.

I have already told him to rematch me but I have not been able to get the time. I've just been practicing at tournies and at Smashfests all week long for EVO.

Understandable. It was just an observation. I'll look at the videos in more detail.

Good luck at EVO.

 

[Chiroz]

Understandable. It was just an observation. I'll look at the videos in more detail.

Good luck at EVO.

Thanks :3.

 

[Karsticles]

I had a Yoshi DI out of Usmash today and hit me with Nair. Mewtwo is such a piece of ****.

 

[Chiroz]

U-Smash's suction is quite weak. If the opponent isn't at the center at the beginning he has a good chance of DIng out. Actually I've had people just fall out because I do a Dashing U-Smash.

 

[Chiroz]

Yoshi is just stupid too to be honest.

Why give a char ridiculous frame data. Ridiculous mobility. And feel the need to also give him more range than a sword on basically everything and also one of the best projectiles in the game.

Yoshi mains can try and say whatever they want but I fought a dude who I 2 stocked CONSISTENTLY with 3 different chars he picked until he switched to Yoshi. And then he was literally just spamming attacks, it's just impossible to punish Yoshi out of anything, and you have to try because he also wins the spamming game with such a stupid projectile as the Egg Throw.

Like I knew everything he was going to do before he did it but I just couldn't punish it in time. Yes, it's my own fault for not being precise enough, but it just frustrates me that a character just completely negates any kind of skill gap between the players. It's either: You know how to fight Yoshi or it doesn't matter how good you are compared to me, I will win because I am Yoshi. I really hate fighting a char that wins on it's own instead of the user's skill (It's not like I lost all the games, I won 2 out of like 8 games and all the games were last hit, last stock except for one).

After having vented off, I still say Mewtwo doesn't have a harder time with Yoshi than with say Sheik or Falcon. The problem I have vs Yoshi's is the fact that I am imprecise (and that I get frustrated easily when someone gets carried by their char, which makes me play worse). The Mewtwo vs Yoshi matchup is the same as Yoshi vs anyone else. You have to learn to punish Yoshi before you even begin to analyze anything else. If you aren't precise enough to punish those 4-5 frames that he has of lag (wifi makes this even harder) then it doesn't matter what char you play you ain't going to be doing anything. Once you learn to be precise enough to punish Yoshi, then you can start actually measuring your skill against him.

At that point I actually think the matchup isn't horrible. It's probably in Yoshi's favor (let's face it who doesn't have a favor vs Mewtwo?) but it's probably not bad.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't even consider Falcon to be a notably bad matchup. Sheik is bad, though.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't even consider Falcon to be a notably bad matchup. Sheik is bad, though.

Falcon is for sure a bad matchup for us. He has an easy time approaching us because most of our options are pretty slow, the only thing he should be looking out for is U-Tilt and even his "unsafe" aerials are safe on shield against Mewtwo since our grab is so short and laggy.

One grab leads to at least 25% from Falcon and we die at around 80%. There's a certain % where he can get a guaranteed knee, but almost no Falcon goes for it or knows the exact %, but a Falcon with good matchup knowledge on Mewtwo would be even scarier.

Falcon can juggle us for days. Air dodging an U-Air doesn't work since Falcon's U-Air ends before our air dodge and he can fast fall faster than us, allowing him go U-Air us again while we're in AD lag.



All we've got going for us is our really strong punishes and incredible offstage gimping game but both of these things only come into play after we've already taken the advantage against the Falcon.

After fighting so many Falcons I still consider Falcon on our top 5 worst matchups. Sheik is my definite top 1, Mario is also in that top 5 although lately I've been having an easier time vs Mario. Sure, one grab leads to 50-70%, but after that it's hard for the Mario to kill. With time it's become easier and easier for me to avoid the kill moves.

 

[RayNoire]

With customs, Fox might be even worse for us than Mario.

Our only saving grace in that match is being able to gimp Fox; we can throw out a Shadow Ball to stop him from ledgesnapping with side-B and we can spike his Up-B easily. But Twisting Fox gives him massively shortened startup and a HUGE disjoint for some reason (not to mention a landing trap that kills us at 60%). Hitting him out of it isn't impossible, but it requires unreasonable precision and if we mess up we're probably dead.

That move is a big reason why I'm not exactly feeling the customs-on game.

 

[Chiroz]

With customs, Fox might be even worse for us than Mario.

Our only saving grace in that match is being able to gimp Fox; we can throw out a Shadow Ball to stop him from ledgesnapping with side-B and we can spike his Up-B easily. But Twisting Fox gives him massively shortened startup and a HUGE disjoint for some reason (not to mention a landing trap that kills us at 60%). Hitting him out of it isn't impossible, but it requires unreasonable precision and if we mess up we're probably dead.

That move is a big reason why I'm not exactly feeling the customs-on game.

Twisting Fox is just pretty much broken. I am expecting customs to be banned after EVO to be honest.

F-Air can hit through Twisting Fox without trading (like most moves do because of the gigantic hitbox) but you need to space it correctly. If he's recovering from below instead of diagonally I normally don't even challenge it, it's not worth the risk. Maybe B-Air could work but I don't play that many Foxs, haven't really gone too deep into it.

 

[meleebrawler]

With customs, Fox might be even worse for us than Mario.

Our only saving grace in that match is being able to gimp Fox; we can throw out a Shadow Ball to stop him from ledgesnapping with side-B and we can spike his Up-B easily. But Twisting Fox gives him massively shortened startup and a HUGE disjoint for some reason (not to mention a landing trap that kills us at 60%). Hitting him out of it isn't impossible, but it requires unreasonable precision and if we mess up we're probably dead.

That move is a big reason why I'm not exactly feeling the customs-on game.

Startup for Twisting Fox seems pretty much the same as fire, the one with quick startup is flying fox (the rocket boots).

 

[Coffee™]

Startup for Twisting Fox seems pretty much the same as fire, the one with quick startup is flying fox (the rocket boots).

It's not the same, nor is it massively shortened, but there is a notable startup difference in the flames around him during Twisting Fox.

 

[meleebrawler]

It's not the same, nor is it massively shortened, but there is a notable startup difference in the flames around him during Twisting Fox.

Maybe I'm just thinking of the startup as the time before he starts moving. *shrug*

 

[Chiroz]

Maybe I'm just thinking of the startup as the time before he starts moving. *shrug*

That is the startup.

It's about half of default.

 

[Karsticles]

Falcon is for sure a bad matchup for us. He has an easy time approaching us because most of our options are pretty slow, the only thing he should be looking out for is U-Tilt and even his "unsafe" aerials are safe on shield against Mewtwo since our grab is so short and laggy.

One grab leads to at least 25% from Falcon and we die at around 80%. There's a certain % where he can get a guaranteed knee, but almost no Falcon goes for it or knows the exact %, but a Falcon with good matchup knowledge on Mewtwo would be even scarier.

Falcon can juggle us for days. Air dodging an U-Air doesn't work since Falcon's U-Air ends before our air dodge and he can fast fall faster than us, allowing him go U-Air us again while we're in AD lag.



All we've got going for us is our really strong punishes and incredible offstage gimping game but both of these things only come into play after we've already taken the advantage against the Falcon.

After fighting so many Falcons I still consider Falcon on our top 5 worst matchups. Sheik is my definite top 1, Mario is also in that top 5 although lately I've been having an easier time vs Mario. Sure, one grab leads to 50-70%, but after that it's hard for the Mario to kill. With time it's become easier and easier for me to avoid the kill moves.

Can't say I struggle with Mario. We outrange him significantly, can reflect his slow fireball, and his run speed is mediocre. In general, slow run speed = even matchup at least for Mewtwo, IMO. It means you can Nair without worry.

Don't try to footsies Falcon. He is too fast, and he will just dash in between tilts because our frame data is so bad. Instead, run into him and Nair through him. It is extremely hard for him to punish this after the last patch. Every time you do a Nair through him at full speed, you make him more hesitant in his approach. He can't roll back or spot dodge to beat this. He has to block. Then you go for the grab instead of the Nair, as he will run up and shield, expecting the Nair. This is the basic mindgame we have to exploit against Falcon. It works well against a lot of characters, but primarily tall ones.

We win the neutral, IMO. We also gimp him easily. The biggest problem is that he has kill combos at low %. It is probably slightly in his advantage as a result. Not a top 5 bads, though.

Top 6 bad IMO:
Fox
Sheik
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness
Pikachu

 

[Chiroz]

Can't say I struggle with Mario. We outrange him significantly, can reflect his slow fireball, and his run speed is mediocre. In general, slow run speed = even matchup at least for Mewtwo, IMO. It means you can Nair without worry.

Don't try to footsies Falcon. He is too fast, and he will just dash in between tilts because our frame data is so bad. Instead, run into him and Nair through him. It is extremely hard for him to punish this after the last patch. Every time you do a Nair through him at full speed, you make him more hesitant in his approach. He can't roll back or spot dodge to beat this. He has to block. Then you go for the grab instead of the Nair, as he will run up and shield, expecting the Nair. This is the basic mindgame we have to exploit against Falcon. It works well against a lot of characters, but primarily tall ones.

We win the neutral, IMO. We also gimp him easily. The biggest problem is that he has kill combos at low %. It is probably slightly in his advantage as a result. Not a top 5 bads, though.

Top 6 bad IMO:
Fox
Sheik
Yoshi
Sonic
Ness
Pikachu

Falcon can dash grab you out of full run N-Air through him. So can Sheik while we're at it. I've had it done to many times. As soon as you go through their shield they just need to shield drop into run into grab.



Mario can get around 50-70% out of a grab or D-Tilt/U-Tilt at low %s. His N-Air also stops any kind of momentum from Mewtwo's part.

Also if Mario let's you reflect his fireball all the time without punishing you then you aren't fighting a good Mario. I more often than not just PS it and just reflect it when I know Mario is going to approach. Because otherwise I make it obvious I am reflecting and he can just SH into an U-Air and start a combo on me. Confusion is quite slow for a reflector.



Why would Sonic be a bad matchup (or my question is, why is he worse than say, Falcon)? You can punish Side-B with OoS U-Smash or N-Air if he jumps. If he doesn't jump then it's just regular old really, really annoying Sonic gameplay. Wait for him to make a mistake, etc.

Also I don't think Fox is close to Mario or Falcon. Apart from Sode-B to Aerial which isn't safe and U-Tilt chains he can't combo us which is our biggest weakness. His reflector is his doom as you can trick him to reflect stuff he shouldn't.



Pikachu I can agree with being a top 5 worst matchup. Ness I don't have enough experience to know.

 

[Karsticles]

Falcon can dash grab you out of full run N-Air through him. So can Sheik while we're at it. I've had it done to many times. As soon as you go through their shield they just need to shield drop into run into grab.



Mario can get around 50-70% out of a grab or D-Tilt/U-Tilt at low %s. His N-Air also stops any kind of momentum from Mewtwo's part.

Also if Mario let's you reflect his fireball all the time without punishing you then you aren't fighting a good Mario. I more often than not just PS it and just reflect it when I know Mario is going to approach. Because otherwise I make it obvious I am reflecting and he can just SH into an U-Air and start a combo on me. Confusion is quite slow for a reflector.



Why would Sonic be a bad matchup (or my question is, why is he worse than say, Falcon)? You can punish Side-B with OoS U-Smash or N-Air if he jumps. If he doesn't jump then it's just regular old really, really annoying Sonic gameplay. Wait for him to make a mistake, etc.

Also I don't think Fox is close to Mario or Falcon. Apart from Sode-B to Aerial which isn't safe and U-Tilt chains he can't combo us which is our biggest weakness. His reflector is his doom as you can trick him to reflect stuff he shouldn't.



Pikachu I can agree with being a top 5 worst matchup. Ness I don't have enough experience to know.

You don't need to run before the Nair. It is extremely hard to punish the Nair. I don't know if Sheik can do it after 1.0.8. If you are playing the character right, the Nair is unblockable a good portion of the time, too.

If Mario is close enough to SH Uair you, he can't throw the fireball and approach in time. Yeah, the grab sucks, but you need to focus on not getting grabbed, then. If you know what you are looking for, it is easier to avoid.

We can also Nair through fireballs. I Nair through Megaman projectiles a lot. The only basic projectile that we can't Nair through is Yoshi's eggs.

Show me some gameplay of you vs. a good Mario. All the theory talk is tiresome and weak. I uploaded a ton of my play against Yoshi to demonstrate my difficulties.

Sonic is much, much faster than Captain Falcon (check the run speed charts), and he is pretty much ungimpable. The second part is more troublesome than the first. Falcon is workable because of our gimp power. Sonic is invincible during his up B and doesn't care.

Fox is fast and safe, he can harass from afar, and he can reflect. Yes, we can trick Fox into doing bad reflections. However, that's not how you evaluate a matchup. Matchups are about what happens when both players understand what they should do. A good Fox won't die this way. A good Fox will jump over Shadow Ball, and only reflect when he is inside our vulnerable zone.

I play against an amazing Ness. If you want MU experience, I can refer him to you like I did with the Yoshi. These three things make the matchup difficult:
1) He can reflect OR absorb; his choice. Absorption is always 100% safe if he succeeds.
2) PK Fire into Fairs deals a ton of damage, and his Bthrow kills us at 80-90%. He only needs to hit us a few times to win.
3) He has tons of safe options. Everything Ness does is safe.
4) With PK Fire, he has the advantage in the footsies game. It is pretty hard to reflect; worse, he can punish a predictive reflect with PK Fire.
5) He is small, so most of Nair whiffs against him.

Hit me with your top 5.

 

[Chiroz]

You don't need to run before the Nair. It is extremely hard to punish the Nair. I don't know if Sheik can do it after 1.0.8. If you are playing the character right, the Nair is unblockable a good portion of the time, too.

If Mario is close enough to SH Uair you, he can't throw the fireball and approach in time. Yeah, the grab sucks, but you need to focus on not getting grabbed, then. If you know what you are looking for, it is easier to avoid.

We can also Nair through fireballs. I Nair through Megaman projectiles a lot. The only basic projectile that we can't Nair through is Yoshi's eggs.

Show me some gameplay of you vs. a good Mario. All the theory talk is tiresome and weak. I uploaded a ton of my play against Yoshi to demonstrate my difficulties.

Sonic is much, much faster than Captain Falcon (check the run speed charts), and he is pretty much ungimpable. The second part is more troublesome than the first. Falcon is workable because of our gimp power. Sonic is invincible during his up B and doesn't care.

Fox is fast and safe, he can harass from afar, and he can reflect. Yes, we can trick Fox into doing bad reflections. However, that's not how you evaluate a matchup. Matchups are about what happens when both players understand what they should do. A good Fox won't die this way. A good Fox will jump over Shadow Ball, and only reflect when he is inside our vulnerable zone.

I play against an amazing Ness. If you want MU experience, I can refer him to you like I did with the Yoshi. These three things make the matchup difficult:
1) He can reflect OR absorb; his choice. Absorption is always 100% safe if he succeeds.
2) PK Fire into Fairs deals a ton of damage, and his Bthrow kills us at 80-90%. He only needs to hit us a few times to win.
3) He has tons of safe options. Everything Ness does is safe.
4) With PK Fire, he has the advantage in the footsies game. It is pretty hard to reflect; worse, he can punish a predictive reflect with PK Fire.
5) He is small, so most of Nair whiffs against him.

Hit me with your top 5.

Sheik and Falcon can both dash grab you out of N-Air no matter how far or how close to them you do it. They just have to know when to drop their shield. I can really confirm this 100%, the hard part is dropping their shield correctly but a pro player will learn the move really quickly.

Mario can throw the fireball in the air, you do know that right? In fact most if not all Mario's approach with fireballs from the air. I don't think I've ever seen a Mario just throw a fireball while on the ground. I know we can N-Air through the projectiles, that isn't really the problem. The problem with Mario is that anything he does leads to 50-70% combo. Jab leads into grab on Mewtwo. U-Tilt leads into the combo without needing to grab and so does U-Air. Playing against a Mario basically means you start around 50-70% damage. As I said the matchup has been getting easier and easier for me, but not because I don't get comboed, it's just because with time I have learned how to avoid the kill setups. I still get comboed infinitely by Mario as soon as he gets 1 hit.



What does it matter if Sonic is faster? Run speed doesn't inherently make a character better, it just makes the player harder to react to. Which isn't a Mewtwo thing, that's a player per player basis. Sonic has not safe aerials on shield (unlike Falcon) and he cannot pressure us with anything BUT side-B. He is ungimpeable pretty much, but the neutral vs Sonic is actually not hard if you're patient. Sonic is a character similar to Yoshi, where it's all about learning how to punish Sonic and being patient.

I think your problem against Sonic is the same as mine with Yoshi, were you don't understand when you can or cannot punish him. Or do you do well against Sonic with another char? What does that other char have that Mewtwo does not?



You can reflect lasers and they deal more damage backwards. Fox is just as safe as Falcon is but he can't combo us out of anything but U-Tilt chains. As you said, we're assuming both players know how to play so the Mewtwo would not throw a Shadow Ball to a Fox that can reflect it back which makes the reflector non-existant, which was my point about saying: "We can trick him to use reflector at bad times". He either reflects incorrectly or doesn't reflect at all. The number of times I died to a reflected Shadow Ball when playing seriously is like 1 in every 100 Shadow Balls.

I don't think Fox has anything that makes him harder than Falcon to be honest. He is basically a Falcon who cannot combo us and who is easier to gimp.





I just played 4 Nesses today at tournament. I didn't feel the matchup was that bad. I have problems against scrub Nesses who just spam F-Smash because it kills us around 50% with no rage, so if he throws 10 and lands only 1 it's a kill, but that's my own mistake for being careless. I still beat 3 of the 4 Nesses and I was 2 stocking most of them (although they were bad in general). The Ness that beat me was actually one of our top players here in SoCal, he just moved here from another region where he was also one of the top players at, We went last hit, last stock both games we played (he won both), I honestly don't feel the matchup is bad at all (Although I've only played the matchup probably like 10-20 times, not that many times. But having played a highly skilled player I didn't feel like I was being wrecked like when I play a Falcon or Sheik).



Key Hints:

Don't try to punish aerials after they hit your shield, try to punish them as he is landing. So if he lands an aerial, don't try to shield grab him. Instead jump with an F-Air OoS or rush in with a dash attack or dash grab as he's landing.

Avoid U-Air and F-Smash at all costs (and PK Fire when close up which leads to F-Smash).

Don't try to reflect PK Fire. Just Power Shield it like if you were any other character. Confusion is way too slow and too easily punished.




I never had N-Air whiff on him, so IDK about that. He can be U-Tilted into U-Smash which is awesome.

Absorption is in NO WAY safe. Not even close to. I have literally baited SOOOO many absorptions today out of Baby Shadow Balls which I instantly punished with a grab. Yes, if he absorbs a FCSB then it's safe because of the pushback the FCSB has on Mewtwo which doesn't allow him to chase after it. I literally baited a Baby Shadow Ball offstage into an F-Air when he absorbed it.

Also don't throw FCSB when he can absorb them.

 

[Karsticles]

Sheik and Falcon can both dash grab you out of N-Air no matter how far or how close to them you do it. They just have to know when to drop their shield. I can really confirm this 100%, the hard part is dropping their shield correctly but a pro player will learn the move really quickly.

Mario can throw the fireball in the air, you do know that right? In fact most if not all Mario's approach with fireballs from the air. I don't think I've ever seen a Mario just throw a fireball while on the ground. I know we can N-Air through the projectiles, that isn't really the problem. The problem with Mario is that anything he does leads to 50-70% combo. Jab leads into grab on Mewtwo. U-Tilt leads into the combo without needing to grab and so does U-Air. Playing against a Mario basically means you start around 50-70% damage. As I said the matchup has been getting easier and easier for me, but not because I don't get comboed, it's just because with time I have learned how to avoid the kill setups. I still get comboed infinitely by Mario as soon as he gets 1 hit.



What does it matter if Sonic is faster? Run speed doesn't inherently make a character better, it just makes the player harder to react to. Which isn't a Mewtwo thing, that's a player per player basis. Sonic has not safe aerials on shield (unlike Falcon) and he cannot pressure us with anything BUT side-B. He is ungimpeable pretty much, but the neutral vs Sonic is actually not hard if you're patient. Sonic is a character similar to Yoshi, where it's all about learning how to punish Sonic and being patient.

I think your problem against Sonic is the same as mine with Yoshi, were you don't understand when you can or cannot punish him. Or do you do well against Sonic with another char? What does that other char have that Mewtwo does not?



You can reflect lasers and they deal more damage backwards. Fox is just as safe as Falcon is but he can't combo us out of anything but U-Tilt chains. As you said, we're assuming both players know how to play so the Mewtwo would not throw a Shadow Ball to a Fox that can reflect it back which makes the reflector non-existant, which was my point about saying: "We can trick him to use reflector at bad times". He either reflects incorrectly or doesn't reflect at all. The number of times I died to a reflected Shadow Ball when playing seriously is like 1 in every 100 Shadow Balls.

I don't think Fox has anything that makes him harder than Falcon to be honest. He is basically a Falcon who cannot combo us and who is easier to gimp.





I just played 4 Nesses today at tournament. I didn't feel the matchup was that bad. I have problems against scrub Nesses who just spam F-Smash because it kills us around 50% with no rage, so if he throws 10 and lands only 1 it's a kill, but that's my own mistake for being careless. I still beat 3 of the 4 Nesses and I was 2 stocking most of them (although they were bad in general). The Ness that beat me was actually one of our top players here in SoCal, he just moved here from another region where he was also one of the top players at, We went last hit, last stock both games we played (he won both), I honestly don't feel the matchup is bad at all (Although I've only played the matchup probably like 10-20 times, not that many times. But having played a highly skilled player I didn't feel like I was being wrecked like when I play a Falcon or Sheik).



Key Hints:

Don't try to punish aerials after they hit your shield, try to punish them as he is landing. So if he lands an aerial, don't try to shield grab him. Instead jump with an F-Air OoS or rush in with a dash attack or dash grab as he's landing.

Avoid U-Air and F-Smash at all costs (and PK Fire when close up which leads to F-Smash).

Don't try to reflect PK Fire. Just Power Shield it like if you were any other character. Confusion is way too slow and too easily punished.




I never had N-Air whiff on him, so IDK about that. He can be U-Tilted into U-Smash which is awesome.

Absorption is in NO WAY safe. Not even close to. I have literally baited SOOOO many absorptions today out of Baby Shadow Balls which I instantly punished with a grab. Yes, if he absorbs a FCSB then it's safe because of the pushback the FCSB has on Mewtwo which doesn't allow him to chase after it. I literally baited a Baby Shadow Ball offstage into an F-Air when he absorbed it.

Also don't throw FCSB when he can absorb them.

If you were punishing Psi Magnet, then the Ness doesn't know what he is doing. It is shield cancelable once it absorbs anything, which means it is jump and throw cancelable. It doesn't sound like the Ness you fought knew what he was doing against Mewtwo. Perhaps none of them did. Glad to refer you to a good one that knows the matchup if you want.

Check this video and tell me that Psi Magnet isn't safe against baby Shadow Balls:
https://youtu.be/wQfaejKUrgA

You got a video of you against the one good Ness you fought?

Re: Sonic. I can do alright against him with Mewtwo. I do very well against him with Bowser. Faster means Sonic can punish us more easily. I have been punished at mid screen for a whiffed Dtilt, and I have been grabbed before a pivot ftilt at half screen as well. We honestly just can't use most of our moveset against a good Sonic. Again, glad to refer you to a good Sonic that knows the matchup if you want.

We disagree on Fox, then. I think Fox has a tough neutral for us. Especially with customs on. It is extremely hard to deal with the Falco laser and Winding up B.

Nair through Mario's fireballs and hit him when he is in the air. Jab it out and then Jab2 to punish. Lots of options vs. Mario. Can't say anyone has given me trouble there in a long time. We can do a lot to make sure we don't get grabbed. Nair out of there. Mario can't punish unless he predicts it and Usmashes the right spot.

Actually any time a character with stubby normals tries to approach from the air Nairing into them is a good idea.

Where is your top 5 worst matchup list?

 

[RayNoire]

Bair beats Nair. Actually I'm pretty sure just about anything in the game beats Nair; I don't think it even covers Mewtwo's whole hurtbox.

Also, FF Dair to grab works for Mario. He can also get a free grab if we shield (even powershield) Fireball.

My top 5 worst matchups currently:

Mario
Fox
Kirby
Sheik
Luigi

Toon Link, Yoshi, and Doc are contenders as well.

 

[Chiroz]

If you were punishing Psi Magnet, then the Ness doesn't know what he is doing. It is shield cancelable once it absorbs anything, which means it is jump and throw cancelable. It doesn't sound like the Ness you fought knew what he was doing against Mewtwo. Perhaps none of them did. Glad to refer you to a good one that knows the matchup if you want.

Check this video and tell me that Psi Magnet isn't safe against baby Shadow Balls:
https://youtu.be/wQfaejKUrgA

You got a video of you against the one good Ness you fought?

Re: Sonic. I can do alright against him with Mewtwo. I do very well against him with Bowser. Faster means Sonic can punish us more easily. I have been punished at mid screen for a whiffed Dtilt, and I have been grabbed before a pivot ftilt at half screen as well. We honestly just can't use most of our moveset against a good Sonic. Again, glad to refer you to a good Sonic that knows the matchup if you want.

We disagree on Fox, then. I think Fox has a tough neutral for us. Especially with customs on. It is extremely hard to deal with the Falco laser and Winding up B.

Nair through Mario's fireballs and hit him when he is in the air. Jab it out and then Jab2 to punish. Lots of options vs. Mario. Can't say anyone has given me trouble there in a long time. We can do a lot to make sure we don't get grabbed. Nair out of there. Mario can't punish unless he predicts it and Usmashes the right spot.

Actually any time a character with stubby normals tries to approach from the air Nairing into them is a good idea.

Where is your top 5 worst matchup list?

I honestly didn't know Ness' Absorption could be cancelled, but in that same way so can shield be jumped out of and I have baited many grabs with Baby Shadow Ball by chasing the Shadow Ball into a grab. So has Mario, that's basically Mario's and Luigi's whole approach game, fireball into approach and you can jump the Fire Balls as soon as they hit, yet the approach is still effective. It's all about how and when you do it.


Yes but Falcon is the same. I am not saying Sonic cannot punish us with a grab, which he can, but he doesn't get much from that grab, just a tech chase. Falcon can also punish us quite easily since he will always be at mid range and he gets a whole lot more per punish.


N-Air is not as big as Mewtwo's body, Mario's N-Air beats it (in reality they trade but you only deal 1%). So does his B-Air, D-Air and U-Air. I won't say F-Air because that's so slow that you should catch him way before it hits. N-Air is all about surprising the opponent, hitting him before he hits you basically. And even then I've literally been hit out of an N-Air I've already landed by Luigi/Mario, with Luigi using N-Air is scary because it might mean death even if you land it if Luigi just spams N-Air and hopes for the best. The move seriously needs a hitbox increase.



My top 5 I am not sure to be honest.

I know Sheik is my definite top 1 by far. Falcon is in the top 5 but no idea where. Kirby or Pikachu, or both. I've lately been having an easier time vs Mario so IDK if he's in my top 5 list but he's definitely a hard matchup. Characters with good zoning tools can also be hard for Mewtwo, like Marth.

That's the thing I don't actually know which are the hardest matchups for Mewtwo overall because I haven't played players I think are good enough to gauge that feeling. Even when I lose badly to someone I try to analyze why I lost and most of the times I believe it's because of something I still have not learned or trained (most of the times due to my lack of patience when playing honestly), very few times do I think: "**** I couldn't do anything because of my choice of character!"

With Sonic, no matter what char I pick I feel it's about the same matchup. I feel the burden of beating the Sonic is on my own patience and reaction speed. I've never felt Mewtwo lacked options to fight Sonic, I just feel I am too impatient to actually use the options at the exact time I need to. I normally throw out a random tilt before Sonic actually approaches and I get punished. Not Mewtwo's fault, it's my own. When I play patiently I can punish Sonic's a lot, even though it becomes excessively hard and annoying when they just start Up-Bing everywhere to cover their mistakes.

Now with Sheik or Falcon when I lose I do feel like I just couldn't do anything with my char, because most of the times that's the case. Sure we can actually contend with Falcon's neutral and we can gimp him easily, but once he gets the momentum with a single jab.

Mario used to feel the same way but now that I can avoid his kill moves more effectively I end up living up to 130-150% which makes the fact that he can do 50-70% out of 1/2 grabs trivial. I can also get out of the U-Tilt lock quite easily, although most Mario's who've fought me know not to go for that and instead go for D-Air into U-Air chains. I don't know if I've just been fighting subpar Mario's or if maybe the key to the matchup is just that, not letting the easy combos demoralize you and just avoiding the kill options.

I will also say that I have a hard time landing. It's something I am working on and it might skew my vision of the Mario matchup. I am trying to integrate just random teleports into my landing game. This doesn't affect my vision of Sheik or Falcon though as their combos are true combos and not just chains like Mario's




Anyways I'll be glad to play everyone you want me to play with next week. I honestly cannot play anyone until after EVO. I am getting together with a group basically every day to get my training going. I'll even play you myself with Mario. While I don't main Mario or even secondary him I think I play him to a decent level. I play him for fun a lot and I think I can do some of the basic Mario things.




As for Ness:

@SShane, what do you think about the Mewtwo vs Ness matchup from the few games we had yesterday? Did it seem like it was an easy matchup for Ness in general? I know you didn't know the matchup beforehand, but do you feel that once you learn the matchup Mewtwo doesn't have many options to fight you?

I think your brother said the matchup was about even when I talked to him but he doesn't play Ness in singles, does he? He's only fought me with Sheik. If you can, ask him why he thinks it's even or if he thinks Ness has an advantage or whatever.

 

[RayNoire]

I think the Ness Down-B "cancel" is just a massive lag reduction from the last patch. It really changed that matchup, which to me was in our favor before.

 

[Chiroz]

I think the Ness Down-B "cancel" is just a massive lag reduction from the last patch. It really changed that matchup, which to me was in our favor before.

No I watched the video and then tried it myself in training. If you input jump at the exact moment a projectile hits the Down-B then Ness jumps. Basically the Down-B acts as a shield for very few frames when the projectile hits the Down-B allowing him to use OoS options.

Even then, a very common strategy is forcin/baiting your opponent to shield to get a grab or such. It's like when people empty hop fast fall into a grab. Your opponent can just do ANY attack and hit you out of the grab or he can jump out of his shield and avoid the grab, yet pros still do it so much because it's unexpected, it's a mixup thing. It's the same principle with Ness. Bait a Down-B and punish it. It's not like Ness healing 5% is that big of a deal anyways and your punish might actually matter a lot depending on what you can get out of it.

Also it's not like Shadow Ball is a necessity for Mewtwo. He can do the matchup without it too.

 

[RayNoire]

No I watched the video and then tried it myself in training. If you input jump at the exact moment a projectile hits the Down-B then Ness jumps. Basically the Down-B acts as a shield for very few frames when the projectile hits the Down-B allowing him to use OoS options.

Even then, a very common strategy is forcin/baiting your opponent to shield to get a grab or such. It's like when people empty hop fast fall into a grab. Your opponent can just do ANY attack and hit you out of the grab or he can jump out of his shield and avoid the grab, yet pros still do it so much because it's unexpected, it's a mixup thing. It's the same principle with Ness. Bait a Down-B and punish it. It's not like Ness healing 5% is that big of a deal anyways and your punish might actually matter a lot depending on what you can get out of it.

Also it's not like Shadow Ball is a necessity for Mewtwo. He can do the matchup without it too.

That's strange. I wonder why they would change the endlag if you could always cancel it anyway. Or maybe the whole mechanic is new. Either way, I guess the Nesses I've played weren't aware.

How does that work in the air though? Uncharged SBs are usually landing traps for me. Maybe that's the difference.

By the way, some other things about Mario:

At the ledge, F-throw-Fair-Footstool is a potential 0-death combo at low %s, even on us I believe (may be stage-dependent). It may not be a true combo, but the DI window is extremely short (like Zelda's Up-B).

On the ledge, Mario's Usmash facing the ledge covers all getup options except waiting, while Mario's Usmash facing away from the ledge covers all getup options except roll (and might cover that too in certain situations). Fun!

 

[meleebrawler]

That's strange. I wonder why they would change the endlag if you could always cancel it anyway. Or maybe the whole mechanic is new. Either way, I guess the Nesses I've played weren't aware.

How does that work in the air though? Uncharged SBs are usually landing traps for me. Maybe that's the difference.

By the way, some other things about Mario:

At the ledge, F-throw-Fair-Footstool is a potential 0-death combo at low %s, even on us I believe (may be stage-dependent). It may not be a true combo, but the DI window is extremely short (like Zelda's Up-B).

On the ledge, Mario's Usmash facing the ledge covers all getup options except waiting, while Mario's Usmash facing away from the ledge covers all getup options except roll (and might cover that too in certain situations). Fun!

Do you truly have no time to jump after the footstool? Cuz footstools usually kill by sniping jumps, and I can't see even Mario's fair
sending you to the bottom of the screen that fast at 0%.

Have you tried ledgedrop -> jump -> airdodge to avoid usmash? Or ledgedrop -> jump -> attack (or confusion). Once you've avoided his attempted ledge trap you can teleport away since he is just slow enough to not be able catch Mewtwo at the end with a satisfying punish.

As for Ness's PSI Magnet's reduced endlag it was probably done to bring it more in line with Lucas's.

 

[Chiroz]

That's strange. I wonder why they would change the endlag if you could always cancel it anyway. Or maybe the whole mechanic is new. Either way, I guess the Nesses I've played weren't aware.

How does that work in the air though? Uncharged SBs are usually landing traps for me. Maybe that's the difference.

By the way, some other things about Mario:

At the ledge, F-throw-Fair-Footstool is a potential 0-death combo at low %s, even on us I believe (may be stage-dependent). It may not be a true combo, but the DI window is extremely short (like Zelda's Up-B).

On the ledge, Mario's Usmash facing the ledge covers all getup options except waiting, while Mario's Usmash facing away from the ledge covers all getup options except roll (and might cover that too in certain situations). Fun!

F-Throw to F-Air only hits with the sweetspot if you DI a specific way. If you're at the edge then DI differently to avoid it. Also Don't instantly jump so that he can't footstool you, use Confusion which will make you immune to the footstool PLUS allow you to air stall in case he wants to drop further. If he drops further then just N-Air him, you will both drop SO low that he can't make it back, but you can. If he decides to go back up (and not drop further) then just safely return to the stage.

As for that edgeguard, just ledgedrop and come in with an airdodge, you can instantly retaliate too with a B-Air or just run away with a Teleport. Or you can ledgedrop into a Confusion.

 

[RayNoire]

I've only been killed by the combo a few times, mostly due to surprise. But I've seen my brother do it successfully many times. Just something to watch out for; the one time he did actually send me too far to recover as Mewtwo (saving the jump for after the footstool) was on Lylat, and he actually died too, so it was probably just a bad stage tilt.

But I believe the footstool is guaranteed (Fair is really strong and has a lot of hitstun), though you can probably DI out of the Fthrow. Not sure if he can chase your DI, but the window is super small. Just something to be aware of I guess.

As for that edgeguard, just ledgedrop and come in with an airdodge, you can instantly retaliate too with a B-Air or just run away with a Teleport. Or you can ledgedrop into a Confusion.

The problem is that he controls the timing of the Usmash release, and due to a combination of Mewtwo's crazy hurtbox and that move's bizarre range behind it, he can just wait out an airdodge or release on reaction to the ledge drop--and since Mario's Usmash is so lagless, he can ready another one just as fast when you come back around the ledge if he mistimes it. That's also the problem with Confusion: either you use it really unsafely and likely trade, or you just reset to the ledge with no invincibility.

 

[Chiroz]

I've only been killed by the combo a few times, mostly due to surprise. But I've seen my brother do it successfully many times. Just something to watch out for; the one time he did actually send me too far to recover as Mewtwo (saving the jump for after the footstool) was on Lylat, and he actually died too, so it was probably just a bad stage tilt.

But I believe the footstool is guaranteed (Fair is really strong and has a lot of hitstun), though you can probably DI out of the Fthrow. Not sure if he can chase your DI, but the window is super small. Just something to be aware of I guess.



The problem is that he controls the timing of the Usmash release, and due to a combination of Mewtwo's crazy hurtbox and that move's bizarre range behind it, he can just wait out an airdodge or release on reaction to the ledge drop--and since Mario's Usmash is so lagless, he can ready another one just as fast when you come back around the ledge if he mistimes it. That's also the problem with Confusion: either you use it really unsafely and likely trade, or you just reset to the ledge with no invincibility.

F-Throw to F-Air is guaranteed at very specific %s but only the sourspot is guaranteed. There are certain ways to DI that Mario cannot get the sweetspot no matter what he does.



Mewtwo can ledgedrop->jump half the stage with and air dodge. Mario's U-Smash can't hit you when you ledge drop and if he just starts charging another one you can land about half the stage away without any lag. You air dodge as you're going through him to avoid the second U-Smash completely.

With Confusion I meant use the boost to get on stage and hit Mario in the process. If he can hit your roll option he has to be at a range from the ledge where this is possible. If he is standing closer to the edge than that then just aerial him with proper spacing an F-Air should hit him without him being able to hit you.

 

[Karsticles]

Ness Psi Magnet recovery frame buff is for when he doesn't absorb stuff.

We will play some, Raykz.

My recovery strategy with Mewtwo is still being worked on, but it goes like this:
1) Recover high.
2) Use Confusion to either get more to the side, or swap my direction for a safe landing.
3) If I outpace my opponent, start charging Shadow Ball as I land.
4) If my opponent is very close, fast fall Fair.
5) If my opponent is somewhat close, use Confusion when landing to cover myself.
6) If my opponent is pretty much under me, teleport diagonal down.

This is pretty safe against all but the fastest runners. It usually works even against Falcon. Sonic...teleport a lot. Use his momentum against him.

 

[RayNoire]

I'll try and figure out how to upload replays of the MU soon.

Also, do we have a stage thread? Because I found some pretty disturbing (possibly already known?) things about Duck Hunt and Mewtwo.

 

[Chiroz]

I'll try and figure out how to upload replays of the MU soon.

Also, do we have a stage thread? Because I found some pretty disturbing (possibly already known?) things about Duck Hunt and Mewtwo.

Is it a bad or a good thing? I am interested in knowing. I don't think we have a stage thread. We should have a general competitive discussion thread IMO.

Ness Psi Magnet recovery frame buff is for when he doesn't absorb stuff.

We will play some, Raykz.

My recovery strategy with Mewtwo is still being worked on, but it goes like this:
1) Recover high.
2) Use Confusion to either get more to the side, or swap my direction for a safe landing.
3) If I outpace my opponent, start charging Shadow Ball as I land.
4) If my opponent is very close, fast fall Fair.
5) If my opponent is somewhat close, use Confusion when landing to cover myself.
6) If my opponent is pretty much under me, teleport diagonal down.

This is pretty safe against all but the fastest runners. It usually works even against Falcon. Sonic...teleport a lot. Use his momentum against him.

I need to start using Teleport when I am trying to land, I feel like landing is one of my weaknesses currently.

 

[RayNoire]

Is it a bad or a good thing? I am interested in knowing. I don't think we have a stage thread. We should have a general competitive discussion thread IMO.

It's bad. Well, mostly.

As I understand it, Duck Hunt and Flat Zone have some strange interactions with the z-axis, basically compressing it into the 2D plane. For a lot of characters, this is good because it makes their hitboxes more consistent (I know DK is affected). For Mewtwo, it means that his hurtbox behind him is even larger than normal.

By a lot.

(Is there really no way to post pics from mobile?)

I don't know if Mewtwo gets any changes to his hitboxes, so there is some hope there for anyone able to test. But I'd reconsider any CPs to Duck Hunt in the meantime.

 

[Chiroz]

It's bad. Well, mostly.

As I understand it, Duck Hunt and Flat Zone have some strange interactions with the z-axis, basically compressing it into the 2D plane. For a lot of characters, this is good because it makes their hitboxes more consistent (I know DK is affected). For Mewtwo, it means that his hurtbox behind him is even larger than normal.

By a lot.

(Is there really no way to post pics from mobile?)

I don't know if Mewtwo gets any changes to his hitboxes, so there is some hope there for anyone able to test. But I'd reconsider any CPs to Duck Hunt in the meantime.

Ah yes, I was aware of this already. IDK if it affects any of our hitboxes eithers. It might affect all those wonky hitboxes we have, but probably not.

I don't ever pick DH anyways to be honest and I don't let my opponent ever pick an Omega (it has to be gentleman'ed here) just because so many Omega have wonky ledges and cause problems for Mewtwo's recovery.

 

[Karsticles]

Ah yes, I was aware of this already. IDK if it affects any of our hitboxes eithers. It might affect all those wonky hitboxes we have, but probably not.

I don't ever pick DH anyways to be honest and I don't let my opponent ever pick an Omega (it has to be gentleman'ed here) just because so many Omega have wonky ledges and cause problems for Mewtwo's recovery.

We really need a community standard for which Omega gets picked. I had an opponent try to go Omega Boxing Ring against me. Oh hell no sir, we are not doing THAT.

We could use a stage discussion thread, but it would just be we few guys posting still. I ban stage transition stages just because they are wonky and encourage camping. They really shouldn't be legal, but neither should Halberd.

I also need to work on my landing. I have a pretty good neutral, but once I get hit I feel like I get hit too many times. Even Bowser is easier to land with.

 

[TheBlaziking524]

I'm assuming we are all Mewtwo mains so I might as well throw in my two-cents. For bad match ups Shiek is pretty bad Rosalina and Luma is scary Falcon can be dangerous if you mess up Yoshi is another bad match up. I still kinda mediocre so maybe I'm just bad at the game that's why my feared characters are so strange. Also any tips for me I still am trying to get better at this maybe some tips?

 

[Karsticles]

I'm assuming we are all Mewtwo mains so I might as well throw in my two-cents. For bad match ups Shiek is pretty bad Rosalina and Luma is scary Falcon can be dangerous if you mess up Yoshi is another bad match up. I still kinda mediocre so maybe I'm just bad at the game that's why my feared characters are so strange. Also any tips for me I still am trying to get better at this maybe some tips?

Rosalina is very manageable.

1) Uncharged Shadow Ball is good. Follow it. If she absorbs it, you get a dash attack punish.

2) Nair to punish almost anything she does.

3) She will tend to die at earlier % than you. Just dont get hit by a smash attack.

 

[RayNoire]

Rosalina's actually probably our best top-tier matchup.

Dtilt and Fair both send Luma into tumble, and combined they will kill it from almost anywhere. Rosalina's also tall, which is nice, and floaty, which is okay. Many combos will work, and Usmash should catch her landing really well and start to kill pretty early.

Our best relevant matchups are Rosalina, Villager, Ness? and ROB. And Roy I guess if he's actually relevant.

 

[Chiroz]

Rosalina's actually probably our best top-tier matchup.

Dtilt and Fair both send Luma into tumble, and combined they will kill it from almost anywhere. Rosalina's also tall, which is nice, and floaty, which is okay. Many combos will work, and Usmash should catch her landing really well and start to kill pretty early.

Our best relevant matchups are Rosalina, Villager, Ness? and ROB. And Roy I guess if he's actually relevant.

D-Tilt only sends Luma into tumble after she's like 50% dead. I normally Shadow Ball spam until I feel Luma is suceptible to Tilts.

Either Rosa approaches me or I slowly dwindle down Luma. When Rosa has Shooting Star Bit it gets a bit harder though, specially if she has Lumaport too.

I say that matchup is probably about even, which for Mewtwo is like a godsend since most of his matchups are in the opponents favor.

 

[Karsticles]

Rosalina's actually probably our best top-tier matchup.

Dtilt and Fair both send Luma into tumble, and combined they will kill it from almost anywhere. Rosalina's also tall, which is nice, and floaty, which is okay. Many combos will work, and Usmash should catch her landing really well and start to kill pretty early.

Our best relevant matchups are Rosalina, Villager, Ness? and ROB. And Roy I guess if he's actually relevant.

D-Tilt only sends Luma into tumble after she's like 50% dead. I normally Shadow Ball spam until I feel Luma is suceptible to Tilts.

Either Rosa approaches me or I slowly dwindle down Luma. When Rosa has Shooting Star Bit it gets a bit harder though, specially if she has Lumaport too.

I say that matchup is probably about even, which for Mewtwo is like a godsend since most of his matchups are in the opponents favor.

Agreed that Rosalina is about even, but no way is Ness a good matchup for us. I can refer you guys to my Ness sparring partner to demonstrate.

 

[Chiroz]

Agreed that it is about even, but no way is Ness a good matchup for us. I can refer you guys to my Ness sparring partner to demonstrate.

Just make a PM with him and us, I'll play him a bit after EVO.