Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[TheWozny]

You know, I used to believe in the Falcon matchup.

I no longer do.

I feel Falcon / Mewtwo is a favorable outcome for Falcon, but still able to be overcome.

 

[Chiroz]

You know, I used to believe in the Falcon matchup.

I no longer do.

Does that mean you think it's easy or hard?


I still retain my opinion from the beginning that Falcon is hard (close to top 5). I find it funny that as time passes most people just keep agreeing with my points of view more and more.

First it was with Ness/Ganondorf being our worst 2 matchups. I think most people have realized by now that that isn't so. Then it was with Mario, everyone said Mario was an easy matchup, now at least you and a few others agree that Mario is hard (although now I believe that he isn't top 5, but he's still a hard matchup).

Then it was Sheik not being a horrible matchup, I think people are understanding just how horrible that matchup is now. Then with Yoshi being our worst matchup, which I think Karsticles now realizes he isn't as hard as he thought he was. And now it's Falcon which people said was an easy matchup, with time they'll see he's actually a pretty tough matchup.

I have also found out that ZSS and MK are pretty hard matchups, probably both in our top 5 list or very close to it.



The bigget problem with Mewtwo is that most matchups are hard. Like it's hard for me to find a matchup where playing Mewtwo is actually an advantage while he is at a disadvantage against more than half the cast.

I feel Falcon / Mewtwo is a favorable outcome for Falcon, but still able to be overcome.

Well, currently there are no real matchups you can't overcome in Smash 4 to be honest. Sheik vs most chars is the closest it comes to "unsurmountable" advantage, but I think there's no char that really had 0 chance vs Sheik.




If I were to make a top 5 it would definitely have Sheik, ZSS, Falcon, Pikachu, Kirby, MK and Fox (Pikachu and Kirby are more of a gimmick than a hard matchup. Their size just makes it too hard, but I feel that with meta development they could become much easier to deal with). I know that's 7 chars (in a top 5 list) but I just don't know the order they would go (apart from Sheik being the #1). Mario I would probably say is top 10, but he's not in my top 5 list anymore.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Captain Falcon/Mewtwo MU

Mewtwo MU Pros
1. Good Anti-air
2. Good spacing tools
3. Hard to Gimp
4. Shadowball
Cons
1. Floaty/Light
2. Laggy moveset
3. Predictable landing options

Falcon
Pros
1. Fast
2. Can easily combo Mewtwo
3. Uair can keep Mewtwo from landing
4. Strong smashes
5. Many kill options
Cons
1. Can be easily gimped
2. Shadowball can curve his approach options
3. Predictable approach options

IMO 55/45 Falcon's favor

 

[RayNoire]

Does that mean you think it's easy or hard?

Assuming matchup knowledge, it could eventually be 90-10 Falcon.

We have no answer to dash grab, and dash grab kills us at 50%. I mean...that's rough.

 

[Chiroz]

Assuming matchup knowledge, it could eventually be 90-10 Falcon.

We have no answer to dash grab, and dash grab kills us at 50%. I mean...that's rough.

It's not that exagerated. D-Tilt or Jab on reaction are OK answers (not great, but decent), also the usual dash into pivot F-Tilt if he starts from far away. If you get a read you can dash backwards into a RAR DJC Disable.

Mewtwo has a great zoning game and he's really good at keeping Falcon out, the problem is any mistake allows Falcon to Dash Grab us which leads to at least 30%.

If Falcon knows what he is doing 3 Dash Grabs means a stock, so basically you can only make up to 3 mistakes per stock which is brutal considering mistakes in the matchup means throwing out any attack slower than D-Tilt (even D-Tilt can be punished by Falcon's with crazy reaction time).


I would say the hardest part of this matchup is that Falcon can't be punished out of anything. Jab just comes out way too fast and it just covers out such good space. Basically if Falcon lands from any aerial (that isn't knee) or if he throws out any attack (that isn't Falcon Punch or something) jab is always there to keep him safe from Mewtwo's horrible frame data. We basically have to get a read.




Anyways, while IMO Falcon is top 5 worst matchups, he's nowhere near as crazy as you're making it out to be either. I've fought some of the best Falcon's out there (top placing Falcon's at EVO) and trust me, Falcon is no where close to Sheik levels of hard. No single char is even remotely close to how hard the Sheik matchup is when you fight a good Sheik (I've fought Mr. R, Vinnie, K9, VoiD etc).

I would say Sheik is probably 70:30 or even 75:25, Falcon might be 65:35 but probably closer to 60:40, something along those lines (I don't like throwing out numbers such as 90:10 which means it's completely impossible to ever win any match against any Falcon).

I would also argue that ZSS is probably also much harder than Falcon since she has poses the exact same problems Falcon does with Dash Grab but she has more range and also has a much better punish game. She also has auto cancelled aerials, a frame 1 jab and a frame 3 U-Tilt that reaches just as far as our F-Tilt does (in front and behind her) and it also true combos into U-Air chains vs Mewtwo's huge, DI-less (bad acceleration) body.

This last statement I would need to research more, but I feel ZSS and even MK are probably much harder.

Remember Falcon is also easily gimped.



Good to see you don't think Mario is our #1 hardest matchup anymore, lol.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Assuming matchup knowledge, it could eventually be 90-10 Falcon.

We have no answer to dash grab, and dash grab kills us at 50%. I mean...that's rough.

Just to put it in perspective, shulk's hardest MU,fox vs. shulk was only rated 65/35. If the matchup was 90/10 then that would mean the MU was almost literally unbeatable, or that the opponent SD twice. This MU is hard for sure, but I think the worst it could get is 65/35 and that it is most likely 60/40.

 

[RayNoire]

It's not that exagerated. D-Tilt or Jab on reaction are OK answers (not great, but decent), also the usual dash into pivot F-Tilt if he starts from far away. If you get a read you can dash backwards into a RAR DJC Disable.

Mewtwo has a great zoning game and he's really good at keeping Falcon out, the problem is any mistake allows Falcon to Dash Grab us which leads to at least 30%.

If Falcon knows what he is doing 3 Dash Grabs means a stock, so basically you can only make up to 3 mistakes per stock which is brutal considering mistakes in the matchup means throwing out any attack slower than D-Tilt (even D-Tilt can be punished by Falcon's with crazy reaction time).


I would say the hardest part of this matchup is that Falcon can't be punished out of anything. Jab just comes out way too fast and it just covers out such good space. Basically if Falcon lands from any aerial (that isn't knee) or if he throws out any attack (that isn't Falcon Punch or something) jab is always there to keep him safe from Mewtwo's horrible frame data. We basically have to get a read.




Anyways, while IMO Falcon is top 5 worst matchups, he's nowhere near as crazy as you're making it out to be either. I've fought some of the best Falcon's out there (top placing Falcon's at EVO) and trust me, Falcon is no where close to Sheik levels of hard. No single char is even remotely close to how hard the Sheik matchup is when you fight a good Sheik (I've fought Mr. R, Vinnie, K9, VoiD etc).

I would say Sheik is probably 70:30 or even 75:25, Falcon might be 65:35 but probably closer to 60:40, something along those lines (I don't like throwing out numbers such as 90:10 which means it's completely impossible to ever win any match against any Falcon).

I would also argue that ZSS is probably also much harder than Falcon since she has poses the exact same problems Falcon does with Dash Grab but she has more range and also has a much better punish game. She also has auto cancelled aerials, a frame 1 jab and a frame 3 U-Tilt that reaches just as far as our F-Tilt does (in front and behind her) and it also true combos into U-Air chains vs Mewtwo's huge, DI-less (bad acceleration) body.

This last statement I would need to research more, but I feel ZSS and even MK are probably much harder.

Remember Falcon is also easily gimped.



Good to see you don't think Mario is our #1 hardest matchup anymore, lol.

I mean, 90-10 isn't impossible. I interpret it the straightforward way: Out of 100 matches between equally skilled and knowledgeable players, we would be likely to win around 10 times.

Thing is, when I put it like that, it almost doesn't sound bad enough.

What happened was I was sent to Losers by a Falcon in a reasonably large upset last tournament, so out of curiosity/trying not to have that happen in the future, I labbed the matchup with my brother. We were rather shocked and disgusted both by what we found.

Reacting to dash grab is not really possible; it's kind of infamous for that (and people think Sonic is cancer?). That's something everyone has to deal with, but the difference for Mewtwo is that he has no option he can throw out in neutral that beats dash grab and doesn't lose to dash grab on reaction to that move's ending. We have AC aerials but no option fast enough to stuff him on landing. Dthrow to knee is also depressingly real, as we know.

So our options at that point are pretty slim. We can always get a read, but converting that to a stock is harder than it seemed at first. Captain's a fast-faller, which contrary to popular belief, isn't all bad when it comes to getting comboed, and it entirely ****s with dtilt-Fair, Jab-anything, and Utilt-anything at low%s. With good DI, basically none of our combos work except for maybe at a slim range of %s that we may never get to, since without combos Mewtwo's damage racking is terrible.

We can approach--ew--but all Falcon has to do is run around and laugh at us until we commit to literally anything. Seriously, this character played optimally is the worst thing to happen to this game. Ironic since he's the crowd favorite, but eh.

Oh, and gimping: he has a lot more recovery mixups than I gave him credit for. His Up-B goes a ridiculous distance, and Uair prevents a lot of preemptive positioning. It's definitely not free. But if there is any area that could make this not the worst MU in the game, it's there I guess.

 

[Chiroz]

I mean, 90-10 isn't impossible. I interpret it the straightforward way: Out of 100 matches between equally skilled and knowledgeable players, we would be likely to win around 10 times.

Thing is, when I put it like that, it almost doesn't sound bad enough.

What happened was I was sent to Losers by a Falcon in a reasonably large upset last tournament, so out of curiosity/trying not to have that happen in the future, I labbed the matchup with my brother. We were rather shocked and disgusted both by what we found.

Reacting to dash grab is not really possible; it's kind of infamous for that (and people think Sonic is cancer?). That's something everyone has to deal with, but the difference for Mewtwo is that he has no option he can throw out in neutral that beats dash grab and doesn't lose to dash grab on reaction to that move's ending. We have AC aerials but no option fast enough to stuff him on landing. Dthrow to knee is also depressingly real, as we know.

So our options at that point are pretty slim. We can always get a read, but converting that to a stock is harder than it seemed at first. Captain's a fast-faller, which contrary to popular belief, isn't all bad when it comes to getting comboed, and it entirely ****s with dtilt-Fair, Jab-anything, and Utilt-anything at low%s. With good DI, basically none of our combos work except for maybe at a slim range of %s that we may never get to, since without combos Mewtwo's damage racking is terrible.

We can approach--ew--but all Falcon has to do is run around and laugh at us until we commit to literally anything. Seriously, this character played optimally is the worst thing to happen to this game. Ironic since he's the crowd favorite, but eh.

Oh, and gimping: he has a lot more recovery mixups than I gave him credit for. His Up-B goes a ridiculous distance, and Uair prevents a lot of preemptive positioning. It's definitely not free. But if there is any area that could make this not the worst MU in the game, it's there I guess.

90:10 does not mean that out of 90 games you win 10.

80:20 is an impossible matchup, aside from some IC vs Ganon and things like that there hasn't been any real 80:20 in Smash.

70:30 means that it's basically an unwinnable matchup but there's still a possibility of winning. 90:10 basically means that anyone can beat you at any time.



Reacting to Falcon's dashing is possible depending on how close he is to you. If he is so close that you cannot react then you should probably try to move.



D-Tilt true combos on Falcon 2 and even 3 times at low %s. You can then go for the usual F-Air to read->jab (which isn't guaranteed on anyone) or you could go for FF N-Air->D-Tilt which is a true combo on Fast Fallers, you can then do F-Air->F-Air which is both a true combo and non-DI-able at that %.

So D-Tilt x 2-3-> SH FF N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air x 2. This is ALL true combo and Non-DI-able. You can lab it yourself in training mode against your brother if you would like.

After that Falcon will be at 52-55%. Jab->D-Tilt will now work. Also D-Tilt->DH U-Air->Aerial will now work until around 110% too. That combo deals around 27-31% damage and KOs Falcon around 100% fresh.

We can combo him plenty if you know different combos than just D-Tilt -> F-Air.



As for gimping, go back around 5 pages and read what I wrote. That still stands. As long as you're able to get him offstage while you're close to the edge then you can do a lot of stuff. If Falcon likes to U-Air you then go for a B-Air, if he air dodges the B-Air then trick him by positioninrg yourself for a B-Air and then surprising him with an N-Air (which will hit him after the air dodge).

This doesn't mean you will be gimping Falcon every single match, but probably you should be gimping him at least 1 stock per set, as a general rule of thumb. After all, if you hit him with 1 good aerial after his second jump is gone then he's dead.

 

[Sonicninja115]

90:10 does not mean that out of 90 games you win 10.

80:20 is an impossible matchup, aside from some IC vs Ganon and things like that there hasn't been any real 80:20 in Smash.

70:30 means that it's basically an unwinnable matchup but there's still a possibility of winning. 90:10 basically means that anyone can beat you at any time.



Reacting to Falcon's dashing is possible depending on how close he is to you. If he is so close that you cannot react then you should probably try to move.



D-Tilt true combos on Falcon 2 and even 3 times at low %s. You can then go for the usual F-Air to read->jab (which isn't guaranteed on anyone) or you could go for FF N-Air->D-Tilt which is a true combo on Fast Fallers, you can then do F-Air->F-Air which is both a true combo and non-DI-able at that %.

So D-Tilt x 2-3-> SH FF N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air x 2. This is ALL true combo and Non-DI-able. You can lab it yourself in training mode against your brother if you would like.

After that Falcon will be at 52-55%. Jab->D-Tilt will now work. Also D-Tilt->DH U-Air->Aerial will now work until around 110% too. That combo deals around 27-31% damage and KOs Falcon around 100% fresh.

We can combo him plenty if you know different combos than just D-Tilt -> F-Air.



As for gimping, go back around 5 pages and read what I wrote. That still stands. As long as you're able to get him offstage while you're close to the edge then you can do a lot of stuff. If Falcon likes to U-Air you then go for a B-Air, if he air dodges the B-Air then trick him by positioninrg yourself for a B-Air and then surprising him with an N-Air (which will hit him after the air dodge).

This doesn't mean you will be gimping Falcon every single match, but probably you should be gimping him at least 1 stock per set, as a general rule of thumb. After all, if you hit him with 1 good aerial after his second jump is gone then he's dead.

And if you know the Falcon is going to dash attack you, can't you use Disable as well?

 

[Chiroz]

And if you know the Falcon is going to dash attack you, can't you use Disable as well?

It's a dash grab and it depends on how quickly you can react and how far away Falcon is. Normally the human brain takes at least a few frames to just assimilate what's going on. Falcon's grab is around frame 10. Our Disable comes out at frame 16. This would means that Falcon would need to be dashing for around 15 frames before pressing the grab button in order for you to react appropriately and Disable him. That's 25 frames, that's basically as long as our F-Smash takes.

This will basically never happen unless he's running from about half the stage away. But if you can predict he's going to Dash Grab you (and you are willing to bet your life on it) you can Dash Backwards into RAR DJC Disable. This will work no matter how close Falcon is as long as he goes for a dash attack or dash grab (or aerial, but it won't stun him), but if Falcon doesn't go for the grab and instead shields (or doesn't even dash) then you're going to get Smashed in the face.

 

[RayNoire]

90:10 does not mean that out of 90 games you win 10.

80:20 is an impossible matchup, aside from some IC vs Ganon and things like that there hasn't been any real 80:20 in Smash.

70:30 means that it's basically an unwinnable matchup but there's still a possibility of winning. 90:10 basically means that anyone can beat you at any time.



Reacting to Falcon's dashing is possible depending on how close he is to you. If he is so close that you cannot react then you should probably try to move.



D-Tilt true combos on Falcon 2 and even 3 times at low %s. You can then go for the usual F-Air to read->jab (which isn't guaranteed on anyone) or you could go for FF N-Air->D-Tilt which is a true combo on Fast Fallers, you can then do F-Air->F-Air which is both a true combo and non-DI-able at that %.

So D-Tilt x 2-3-> SH FF N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air x 2. This is ALL true combo and Non-DI-able. You can lab it yourself in training mode against your brother if you would like.

After that Falcon will be at 52-55%. Jab->D-Tilt will now work. Also D-Tilt->DH U-Air->Aerial will now work until around 110% too. That combo deals around 27-31% damage and KOs Falcon around 100% fresh.

We can combo him plenty if you know different combos than just D-Tilt -> F-Air.



As for gimping, go back around 5 pages and read what I wrote. That still stands. As long as you're able to get him offstage while you're close to the edge then you can do a lot of stuff. If Falcon likes to U-Air you then go for a B-Air, if he air dodges the B-Air then trick him by positioninrg yourself for a B-Air and then surprising him with an N-Air (which will hit him after the air dodge).

This doesn't mean you will be gimping Falcon every single match, but probably you should be gimping him at least 1 stock per set, as a general rule of thumb. After all, if you hit him with 1 good aerial after his second jump is gone then he's dead.

There's a million different interpretations used for those stupid numbers, that's why I usually shy away from using them. The point is that this matchup, in the future and assuming no changes, will be this game's worst and will approach the worst matchups of the other games.

A better way to approach this matchup might just be to take it one scenario at a time.

Falcon is in dash grab range just outside of Disable range. What do you do?

 

[Chiroz]

There's a million different interpretations used for those stupid numbers, that's why I usually shy away from using them. The point is that this matchup, in the future and assuming no changes, will be this game's worst and will approach the worst matchups of the other games.

A better way to approach this matchup might just be to take it one scenario at a time.

Falcon is in dash grab range just outside of Disable range. What do you do?

The numbers have always meant the same things since Melee, it's just they are not conpletely obvious or intuitive to people who don't know what they mean. Some people believe it means the ration of win vs loss, when in reality it's supposed to represent the strength or "effort" ratio. In your example Falcon is as strong as 9 Mewtwos (basically) or in other words the Mewtwo player has to be 9 times more skilled or put 9 times as much effort, which is inpossible unless the Falcon just picked up the game or character.



This is close to what you said about Mario. You seem to have knee jerk reactions everytime you lose to a char, and don't seem to analyze things thoroughly. Like as soon as you lose it seems that the matchup is 100% unwinnable.

I myself am more of a "why did I lose and what could I have done better" kind of guy. That combo on fast fallers I described on the top 50-55% true damage I discovered it the very first hour I labbed Sheik, and then I noticed it true combos on any fast faller. Like I think you should try to take a step back at times and analyze your options a little better instead of always claiming there is nothing we can do like when you said Shadow Balling a Mario is impossible and the move is basically unusable.

In case you still believe it's "unusable", I've fought a Mario that is one of the best Mario's in the world (not trying to diss, but for sure better than your brother) and he pockets Mewtwo so he understands the char and even though he 2 stocked me constantly and even 3 stocked me a couple times (he is really, really good, nothing to do with Mewtwo vs Mario, it's just he's way too good), I was still able to Shadow Ball him a few times without the fear of it being reflected because I knew what I was doing when I threw them (he reflected a FCSB a grand total of 1 time over like 10 games).

Basically I feel like as soon as your lose you claim everything is undoable and unwinnable instead of actually trying to learn what we can do. Mewtwo is a hard character, over half the cast outright beats us and I still don't know any char that outright loses to us. It's hard. It's a reality we live in, but we should either switch char or just try and work the best with what we've got.




You said there were no combos and I just showed you combos at every %. Gimping isn't that hard. It's not free, but it's something Falcon always has to worry about.



As for what do I do: nothing. That's a read based situation. Mewtwo is mostly a read based char so you should be going out of what you think Falcon is going to do. We don't really have "safe options".

Which option is safe from a grab though? Jabbing and Dashing backwards. If he's standing right outside of Disable range, as soon as you hear the control stick or see his feet move then Jab, if he doesn't go for it then you're safe if he tries to dash dance then Jab again if you're truly scared just multi-jab until he commits to something that he can't dash grab out of.

The best option would probably be dash backwards. Falcon has to come to you so just wait until he mispaces something, in the meantime just play the footsies game.




As I've said many times, this isn't even close to our worst matchup. You seem to only understand a matchup once you are shown firsthand (instead of being able to understand Mewtwo's weaknessess from a theoretical point of view), so you need to go out there and fight a decent Sheik or ZSS it will open your eyes to exactly how useless Mewtwo is in those matchups.




I will post some videos of me vs a decent Falcon. He's not top or anything like that, but he's pretty good. Places same as me, top 17th (out of 50-80) normally in a tourney that is always super stacked and has 10+ players that placed top 80 (out of 2200) at EVO.

 

[Sonicninja115]

90:10 does not mean that out of 90 games you win 10.

80:20 is an impossible matchup, aside from some IC vs Ganon and things like that there hasn't been any real 80:20 in Smash.

70:30 means that it's basically an unwinnable matchup but there's still a possibility of winning. 90:10 basically means that anyone can beat you at any time.



Reacting to Falcon's dashing is possible depending on how close he is to you. If he is so close that you cannot react then you should probably try to move.



D-Tilt true combos on Falcon 2 and even 3 times at low %s. You can then go for the usual F-Air to read->jab (which isn't guaranteed on anyone) or you could go for FF N-Air->D-Tilt which is a true combo on Fast Fallers, you can then do F-Air->F-Air which is both a true combo and non-DI-able at that %.

So D-Tilt x 2-3-> SH FF N-Air -> D-Tilt -> F-Air x 2. This is ALL true combo and Non-DI-able. You can lab it yourself in training mode against your brother if you would like.

After that Falcon will be at 52-55%. Jab->D-Tilt will now work. Also D-Tilt->DH U-Air->Aerial will now work until around 110% too. That combo deals around 27-31% damage and KOs Falcon around 100% fresh.

We can combo him plenty if you know different combos than just D-Tilt -> F-Air.



As for gimping, go back around 5 pages and read what I wrote. That still stands. As long as you're able to get him offstage while you're close to the edge then you can do a lot of stuff. If Falcon likes to U-Air you then go for a B-Air, if he air dodges the B-Air then trick him by positioninrg yourself for a B-Air and then surprising him with an N-Air (which will hit him after the air dodge).

This doesn't mean you will be gimping Falcon every single match, but probably you should be gimping him at least 1 stock per set, as a general rule of thumb. After all, if you hit him with 1 good aerial after his second jump is gone then he's dead.

Does that combo actually work on falcon? I tried it but it never registered as a true combo and i could only true one dtilt not 2. and I know that fair will link into eachother but it is not considered true. and Dtilt-nair never true combos as far as I can tell...

 

[Chiroz]

Does that combo actually work on falcon? I tried it but it never registered as a true combo and i could only true one dtilt not 2. and I know that fair will link into eachother but it is not considered true. and Dtilt-nair never true combos as far as I can tell...

Time your D-Tilts so it hits 3 times don't do them as fast as you can.

F-Air->F-Air is a true combo at a very specific % range. There is only about a 6-7% range, where if he is lower than that he will aerial you out of it and if he's higher than that he will DI away.

As far as I can tell it's a true combo on every single char but the % depends on their weight, fall speed and how they like to DI. Specifically for Falcon (and Sheik) though at 30-36% (after the D-Tilt) F-Air will true combo into F-Air.



N-Air has the exact same frame data as F-Air. I've definitely had it true combo on the counter, but even if it didn't it doesn't mean it doesn't combo. If it doesn't true combo by less than 3 frames difference you can still combo anyone but Mac.



I can make a video of the combo if you want. It's really hard to get the whole thing in one go, but I can show you how the 3 D-Tilt true combos, then the D-Tilt to N-Air to D-Tilt at that % and then finally the F-Air to F-Air at that %.




I've labbed Mewtwo quite a lot. I'd be surprised if someone knew more setups than I did at this point tbh. I know I am not the best player by any means, I still need to learn the game much better, but I do think I am probably the most knowledgeable about Mewtwo.

 

[RayNoire]

The numbers have always meant the same things since Melee, it's just they are not conpletely obvious or intuitive to people who don't know what they mean. Some people believe it means the ration of win vs loss, when in reality it's supposed to represent the strength or "effort" ratio. In your example Falcon is as strong as 9 Mewtwos (basically) or in other words the Mewtwo player has to be 9 times more skilled or put 9 times as much effort, which is inpossible unless the Falcon just picked up the game or character.



This is close to what you said about Mario. You seem to have knee jerk reactions everytime you lose to a char, and don't seem to analyze things thoroughly. Like as soon as you lose it seems that the matchup is 100% unwinnable.

I myself am more of a "why did I lose and what could I have done better" kind of guy. That combo on fast fallers I described on the top 50-55% true damage I discovered it the very first hour I labbed Sheik, and then I noticed it true combos on any fast faller. Like I think you should try to take a step back at times and analyze your options a little better instead of always claiming there is nothing we can do like when you said Shadow Balling a Mario is impossible and the move is basically unusable.

In case you still believe it's "unusable", I've fought a Mario that is one of the best Mario's in the world (not trying to diss, but for sure better than your brother) and he pockets Mewtwo so he understands the char and even though he 2 stocked me constantly and even 3 stocked me a couple times (he is really, really good, nothing to do with Mewtwo vs Mario, it's just he's way too good), I was still able to Shadow Ball him a few times without the fear of it being reflected because I knew what I was doing when I threw them (he reflected a FCSB a grand total of 1 time over like 10 games).

Basically I feel like as soon as your lose you claim everything is undoable and unwinnable instead of actually trying to learn what we can do. Mewtwo is a hard character, over half the cast outright beats us and I still don't know any char that outright loses to us. It's hard. It's a reality we live in, but we should either switch char or just try and work the best with what we've got.




You said there were no combos and I just showed you combos at every %. Gimping isn't that hard. It's not free, but it's something Falcon always has to worry about.



As for what do I do: nothing. That's a read based situation. Mewtwo is mostly a read based char so you should be going out of what you think Falcon is going to do. We don't really have "safe options".

Which option is safe from a grab though? Jabbing and Dashing backwards. If he's standing right outside of Disable range, as soon as you hear the control stick or see his feet move then Jab, if he doesn't go for it then you're safe if he tries to dash dance then Jab again if you're truly scared just multi-jab until he commits to something that he can't dash grab out of.

The best option would probably be dash backwards. Falcon has to come to you so just wait until he mispaces something, in the meantime just play the footsies game.




As I've said many times, this isn't even close to our worst matchup. You seem to only understand a matchup once you are shown firsthand (instead of being able to understand Mewtwo's weaknessess from a theoretical point of view), so you need to go out there and fight a decent Sheik or ZSS it will open your eyes to exactly how useless Mewtwo is in those matchups.




I will post some videos of me vs a decent Falcon. He's not top or anything like that, but he's pretty good. Places same as me top 17th (out of 50-80) normally in a tourney that is always super stacked and has 10+ players that placed top 80 (out of 2200) at EVO.

I came to this conclusion strictly through labbing out the matchup. I think I was pretty clear on that. I beat 2 other Falcons at that same tournament (with the help of the great equalizer that is MU inexperience) and I have a fine record against Mario (Since I know the MU like the back of my hand). I ended up getting eliminated by a Little Mac (an MU that I still consider to be among our best--but one that I've always personally struggled with).

Falcon's dash grab is not reactable. The reaction time of the best competitive players is close to 12 frames. Reaction is out of the question.

So you dash backwards. Okay. Unless Falcon dove for a grab at just that moment (and remember you've got a big hurtbox back there so him grabbing you anyway is not out of the question), all that happened is you gave up some stage control. Meanwhile Falcon walks towards you and the situation resets.

This is a common trap that I find myself in a lot, and believe me, you run out of stage quickly.

Falcon doesn't have to come to you until you threaten him with SB, which at that range will get you grabbed. Part of this is the essence of footsies; staying outside of their range and setting yourself up for your own spacing. The reason this devastates Mewtwo so bad is that the risk vs. reward is so overwhelmingly against him for literally anything he does--even his dash is a commitment!--and the reason this is so good for Falcon is simply because he has the range, the speed, and--as you said--only needs to connect 3 times.

Also, that combo you mentioned is not a game-changer. It stops working with minimum rage if it's ever true at all, and it requires the close-range weak hit of Dtilt, which is not something you want to rely on as it's pretty punishable and requires spacing yourself right into Falcon's jab and standing grab range.

All the saltiness talk is pointless ad hominem. I'm giving you the matchup as I see it right now. If I find something that changes the dynamic, I will change my mind. That's how this goes.

 

[Chiroz]

I came to this conclusion strictly through labbing out the matchup. I think I was pretty clear on that. I beat 2 other Falcons at that same tournament (with the help of the great equalizer that is MU inexperience) and I have a fine record against Mario (Since I know the MU like the back of my hand). I ended up getting eliminated by a Little Mac (an MU that I still consider to be among our best--but one that I've always personally struggled with).

Falcon's dash grab is not reactable. The reaction time of the best competitive players is close to 12 frames. Reaction is out of the question.

So you dash backwards. Okay. Unless Falcon dove for a grab at just that moment (and remember you've got a big hurtbox back there so him grabbing you anyway is not out of the question), all that happened is you gave up some stage control. Meanwhile Falcon walks towards you and the situation resets.

This is a common trap that I find myself in a lot, and believe me, you run out of stage quickly.

Falcon doesn't have to come to you until you threaten him with SB, which at that range will get you grabbed. Part of this is the essence of footsies; staying outside of their range and setting yourself up for your own spacing. The reason this devastates Mewtwo so bad is that the risk vs. reward is so overwhelmingly against him for literally anything he does--even his dash is a commitment!--and the reason this is so good for Falcon is simply because he has the range, the speed, and--as you said--only needs to connect 3 times.

Also, that combo you mentioned is not a game-changer. It stops working with minimum rage if it's ever true at all, and it requires the close-range weak hit of Dtilt, which is not something you want to rely on as it's pretty punishable and requires spacing yourself right into Falcon's jab and standing grab range.

All the saltiness talk is pointless ad hominem. I'm giving you the matchup as I see it right now. If I find something that changes the dynamic, I will change my mind. That's how this goes.

It depends. If Falcon just walks towards you then you can dash dance into a grab or even Dash PP into something else. Or Dash Attack or whatever.

The problem is you're not being fair, you're literally being salty. Think about it from Falcon's point of view. You're right outside Disable range, what do you do?

Obviously Falcon has an advantage but this game is mostly a read based match. The difference is a good read from Mewtwo doesn't award him much, while a good read from Falcon gives awards him a lot. It isn't that Falcon has a stronger neutral it's that the risk/reward ratio is skewed heavily in Falcon's favor (but you're making it out to be like Falcon has an impossible to beat neutral).



Also you're going to tell me that Falcon has MU knowledge vs a good Mewtwo? Playing a bad Mewtwo doesn't give you any kind of MU experience. I've played people who play Mewtwo's all the time and as soon as they play me they have no idea what to do because Mewtwo is one of those chars who plays completely different when played correctly. So this Falcon practices vs some other really good Mewtwo a lot?



You literally said a few posts back that there was 0% of a chance of throwing a Shadow Ball that a Mario couldn't safely reflect which is preposterous. I played a Mario that's top 5 Mario in the world (probably top 3) and even though I lost every single game by a landslide I was still able to Shadow Ball him a couple of times and in fact he was only able to reflect once. Because Mewtwo decides when to throw the Shadow Ball, not Mario as such it's your own mistake whenever Mario reflects it but you kept saying it wasn't, that somehow the Mario had magic powers to make you throw a Shadow Ball when you're at an unsafe distance.

I am not saying you're a bad player or anything, I am just saying that most of your analysis of matchups comes from salt and you overexagerate just how easy/hard a matchup is depending on how salty you are.



I've been saying Falcon is a hard matchup for the SAME exact reasons you're listing since May. I understand the matchup, something you just came to understand a short while ago. I am just saying Falcon isn't even close to undoable, it's about getting good reads. Trust me, play a good Sheik, it's much harder than Falcon.




As for the combo, it doesn't have to be from the "weak hit" (why do you call it weak, it's the strongest hit there is, lol). It can be stared from an N-Air and a mid-hit D-Tilt (the hitbox in the middle). It's also guaranteed out of shield punish if Falcon does anything risky (like Dash Attack).

It's not exactly the most reliable combo, but it starts with the exact same hit ALL other of Mewtwo combos start, D-Tilt close hitbox (it works with mid one too!). So if you think it's too "dangerous" of a move then do you ever land a single combo wth Mewtwo, because that's literally all he has.

You also can PP D-Tilt vs Falcons who are dashing towards you too.

 

[RayNoire]

It depends. If Falcon just walks towards you then you can dash dance into a grab or even Dash PP into something else. Or Dash Attack or whatever.

The problem is you're not being fair, you're literally being salty. Think about it from Falcon's point of view. You're right outside Disable range, what do you do?

Obviously Falcon has an advantage but this game is mostly a read based match. The difference is a good read from Mewtwo doesn't award him much, while a good read from Falcon gives awards him a lot. It isn't that Falcon has a stronger neutral it's that the risk/reward ratio is skewed heavily in Falcon's favor (but you're making it out to be like Falcon has an impossible to beat neutral).



Also you're going to tell me that Falcon has MU knowledge vs a good Mewtwo? Playing a bad Mewtwo doesn't give you any kind of MU experience. I've played people who play Mewtwo's all the time and as soon as they play me they have no idea what to do because Mewtwo is one of those chars who plays completely different when played correctly. So this Falcon practices vs some other really good Mewtwo a lot?



You literally said a few posts back that there was 0% of a chance of throwing a Shadow Ball that a Mario couldn't safely reflect which is preposterous. I played a Mario that's top 5 Mario in the world (probably top 3) and even though I lost every single game by a landslide I was still able to Shadow Ball him a couple of times and in fact he was only able to reflect once. Because Mewtwo decides when to throw the Shadow Ball, not Mario as such it's your own mistake whenever Mario reflects it but you kept saying it wasn't, that somehow the Mario had magic powers to make you throw a Shadow Ball when you're at an unsafe distance.

I am not saying you're a bad player or anything, I am just saying that most of your analysis of matchups comes from salt and you overexagerate just how easy/hard a matchup is depending on how salty you are.



I've been saying Falcon is a hard matchup for the SAME exact reasons you're listing since May. I understand the matchup, something you just came to understand a short while ago. I am just saying Falcon isn't even close to undoable, it's about getting good reads. Trust me, play a good Sheik, it's much harder than Falcon.




As for the combo, it doesn't have to be from the "weak hit" (why do you call it weak, it's the strongest hit there is, lol). It can be stared from an N-Air and a mid-hit D-Tilt (the hitbox in the middle). It's also guaranteed out of shield punish if Falcon does anything risky (like Dash Attack).

It's not exactly the most reliable combo, but it starts with the exact same hit ALL other of Mewtwo combos start, D-Tilt close hitbox (it works with mid one too!). So if you think it's too "dangerous" of a move then do you ever land a single combo wth Mewtwo, because that's literally all he has.

You also can PP D-Tilt vs Falcons who are dashing towards you too.

Okay I know for a fact that sweetspot Dtilt does not work for that combo. Are you doing this in Training Mode with no DI?

Falcon does have a stronger neutral (actually that's a humongous understatement, he bodies us in neutral and that's basically why this MU is so bad). He has the trump card that beats every single one of our options. All he has to do is vary his timing or wait for us to commit and land 3 grabs (actually more like 2, by the time we reset to neutral we'll be at knee % most likely) with the easiest grab to land in the game.

Remember when ZeRo basically said every Falcon player sucks? He was right. Very, very few Falcons play optimally because he's known as a character you play for style, and his optimal playstyle is Sonic-esque in its dullness. And of those very few, there are even fewer that know the Mewtwo matchup and that would even attempt a Dthrow-Knee. So at the moment, other characters are bigger threats to your average tournament-goer because of MU inexperience (The reason you pick a low tier in the first place). But MUs aren't based on people that don't know them.

"It's about getting good reads" is the hallmark of a bad MU. Everybody can make reads.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Time your D-Tilts so it hits 3 times don't do them as fast as you can.

F-Air->F-Air is a true combo at a very specific % range. There is only about a 6-7% range, where if he is lower than that he will aerial you out of it and if he's higher than that he will DI away.

As far as I can tell it's a true combo on every single char but the % depends on their weight, fall speed and how they like to DI. Specifically for Falcon (and Sheik) though at 30-36% (after the D-Tilt) F-Air will true combo into F-Air.



N-Air has the exact same frame data as F-Air. I've definitely had it true combo on the counter, but even if it didn't it doesn't mean it doesn't combo. If it doesn't true combo by less than 3 frames difference you can still combo anyone but Mac.



I can make a video of the combo if you want. It's really hard to get the whole thing in one go, but I can show you how the 3 D-Tilt true combos, then the D-Tilt to N-Air to D-Tilt at that % and then finally the F-Air to F-Air at that %.




I've labbed Mewtwo quite a lot. I'd be surprised if someone knew more setups than I did at this point tbh. I know I am not the best player by any means, I still need to learn the game much better, but I do think I am probably the most knowledgeable about Mewtwo.

yeah, those are all true combos, but they might have 1-3 frames were the opponent can act out of it, however, no move is fast enough so they can't get out. Also, I didn't realie Fair-Fair ever true combo'd, I thought the best it could do was link.

I was timing the dtilts so that they would hit but it didn't true combo, however, falcon wasn't able to get out either.

I have also never had anyone get out of dtilt-nair before, but on the counter it only counts the nair not the dtilt, 9 for nair 1 for dtilt?

Also, can you start the combo from any point? (Note: Utilt combo's into bair and usmash)

Also could you share some of those combos for the combo thread I started? So far I have only done the simpler combos, but I'm planning on adding the more advanced one's soon. I have labbed Mewtwo quite a bit but I have never even thought that a combo like that would work.

If it wouldn't be much trouble a video would be great! especially if you would allow me to put the video in the thread as an example of what seems to be the most awesome true combo in the game!

What do you think of the nair KB stuff I found out? do you know of any other patterns?

Thanks for all your Labwork! Mewtwo is definitely a character that could be great when we finish fleshing out the character and after a few balancing patches!

Falcon/Mewtwo MU

What are Mewtwo's options in the air against CF? I feel like that is the worst place for Mewtwo to be... because of CF's aerial movement and the sneaky Bair and godlike Uair. Mewtwo could wall him out with bair right? but I feel that fair would lose even to CF's Uair if mewtwo was facing the wrong direction... would the best option be to Shadow glide and then B-reverse the momentum? (in order to get away)

 

[TheWozny]

For playing falcon, I find it best to get a couple fthrows off at the beginning off the match for damage, as well as try some jab > dtilt > upsmash / fair combos. Mid percents are usually a mix of shadow ball or reads on dash grabs or dash attacks, or some utilt > utilt > grab combos on him. Since Falcon is a fast faller, I find that jab > confusion works well, but don't use it too much or it's predictable. If it works, just finish with a dsmash.

Concerning the "Falcon has an advantage in the air", you're exactly right. Once Mewtwo is above falcon, it's a task to land again. Luckily, teleport or a mix up of jumping, b-reversed shadow balls, or midair disables can usually have them guessing where you're gonna land.

 

[Chiroz]

Okay I know for a fact that sweetspot Dtilt does not work for that combo. Are you doing this in Training Mode with no DI?

Falcon does have a stronger neutral (actually that's a humongous understatement, he bodies us in neutral and that's basically why this MU is so bad). He has the trump card that beats every single one of our options. All he has to do is vary his timing or wait for us to commit and land 3 grabs (actually more like 2, by the time we reset to neutral we'll be at knee % most likely) with the easiest grab to land in the game.

Remember when ZeRo basically said every Falcon player sucks? He was right. Very, very few Falcons play optimally because he's known as a character you play for style, and his optimal playstyle is Sonic-esque in its dullness. And of those very few, there are even fewer that know the Mewtwo matchup and that would even attempt a Dthrow-Knee. So at the moment, other characters are bigger threats to your average tournament-goer because of MU inexperience (The reason you pick a low tier in the first place). But MUs aren't based on people that don't know them.

"It's about getting good reads" is the hallmark of a bad MU. Everybody can make reads.

I just made a video where I will show you. Keep in mind it's 20 minutes long because I had to do it until every small part of the combo registered as a true combo on the counter so that you could see. I am also controlling Falcon and DIng him upwards + away and downwards + away so that you can see it true combos no matter the DI.



Pick Falcon and play me online, simple as that. You are claiming there's literally 0 Mewtwo can do vs Falcon on that given scenario, since you already know the scenario then you should be winning every time. If we truly have nothing that beats out Dash Grab then you will just always win by just Dash Grabbing me. I'll even make it fair and say that if you grab me anywhere in between 50-60% it's a free stock, since that's around the % you can kill me with Knee. Anything above 60% and I can already DI out, anything below 50% and I won't die.

Keep in mind that online you have a major advantage since it's harder for me to react to anything.



There not being good Falcon's doesn't mean anything to me, unlike you I don't make my analysis based on who has wrecked me which is exactly the point I am making. I make my analysis based on the tools each char can use against each other. Obviously I can't know of every single tool every single char has until I've seen it, but Falcon Dash Grab to U-Air chains and Falcon Dash Grab to guaranteed Knee is a tool that's been known since day one, so I have already made my analysis of those tools vs what Mewtwo has.

That paragraph leads me to believe that until you get wrecked you won't understand a matchup, which is exactly what I was saying before and it's the reason I asked you to play a professional Sheik, because just playing one will show you how easy Falcon is compared to Sheik (for Mewtwo).



You are right, getting good reads is about the bread and butter of bad MUs, which is why Mewtwo is considered a "read-based" char, because his punishes are really good but his overall MU spread is horrible. I was trying to make a point that while Falcon is for sure a bad matchup, Mewtwo has similar problems with just about any other char, it's just that Falcon gets better rewards out of it than other chars do. Which does mean he's harder, don't get me wrong, but what I am saying is that Falcon is neither impossible nor our worst matchup.

 

[Chiroz]

For playing falcon, I find it best to get a couple fthrows off at the beginning off the match for damage, as well as try some jab > dtilt > upsmash / fair combos. Mid percents are usually a mix of shadow ball or reads on dash grabs or dash attacks, or some utilt > utilt > grab combos on him. Since Falcon is a fast faller, I find that jab > confusion works well, but don't use it too much or it's predictable. If it works, just finish with a dsmash.

Concerning the "Falcon has an advantage in the air", you're exactly right. Once Mewtwo is above falcon, it's a task to land again. Luckily, teleport or a mix up of jumping, b-reversed shadow balls, or midair disables can usually have them guessing where you're gonna land.

Jab->Disable can be shielded or jabbed by Falcon since he falls so fast.

yeah, those are all true combos, but they might have 1-3 frames were the opponent can act out of it, however, no move is fast enough so they can't get out. Also, I didn't realie Fair-Fair ever true combo'd, I thought the best it could do was link.

I was timing the dtilts so that they would hit but it didn't true combo, however, falcon wasn't able to get out either.

I have also never had anyone get out of dtilt-nair before, but on the counter it only counts the nair not the dtilt, 9 for nair 1 for dtilt?

Also, can you start the combo from any point? (Note: Utilt combo's into bair and usmash)

Also could you share some of those combos for the combo thread I started? So far I have only done the simpler combos, but I'm planning on adding the more advanced one's soon. I have labbed Mewtwo quite a bit but I have never even thought that a combo like that would work.

If it wouldn't be much trouble a video would be great! especially if you would allow me to put the video in the thread as an example of what seems to be the most awesome true combo in the game!

What do you think of the nair KB stuff I found out? do you know of any other patterns?

Thanks for all your Labwork! Mewtwo is definitely a character that could be great when we finish fleshing out the character and after a few balancing patches!

Falcon/Mewtwo MU

What are Mewtwo's options in the air against CF? I feel like that is the worst place for Mewtwo to be... because of CF's aerial movement and the sneaky Bair and godlike Uair. Mewtwo could wall him out with bair right? but I feel that fair would lose even to CF's Uair if mewtwo was facing the wrong direction... would the best option be to Shadow glide and then B-reverse the momentum? (in order to get away)

I made a video but it's not very organized or edited because I don't have the time right now. I have some other really cool combos (specially on floaties) but for now those will do.

You can start the combo from any portion, you can even vary it. If you land a FF N-air you can do D-Tilt to N-Air to D-Tilt to F-Air to F-Air. You can also start the combo with an U-Tilt.



Normally in the air I mostly go for wall B-Airs or just YOLO N-Airs to the face. Most of my N-Airs seem like they are very risky, but more often than not they aren't at all. I can only get punished if you predict it and N-Air before me, otherwise the way I space it and move during it make it completely safe. As long as I don't get predicted it's an 100% safe approach and it's my #1 approach tool. Also if you jump towards him and he starts N-Airing you (to catch your YOLO N-Air) then just space an F-Air and make him pay for that.

Being above Falcon is a no-no though, try to never be above him, always below.




Also keep in mind that DJ U-Air true combos into Mewtwo's aerials since 60%. From 60 until about 80% you can actually true combo it into FF N-Air and continue the combo with a true combo D-Tilt!

Basically, D-Tilt->DJ U-Air->FF N-Air->D-Tilt->DJ U-Air->F-Air is an actual thing at 60% vs Falcon (Deals 50%+ and kills if done correctly).

I actually showed part of the above combo in the video but I was unable to true combo the D-Tilt after the FF N-Air but it can, 100% true combo. You can believe me or not on this (since I tried for like 5 minutes and wasn't able to), but FF N-Air does true combo into D-Tilt if you can learn how to "drop" opponents at the specific height you need to.

As I said I have labbed many different combos for Mewtwo, it's just that N-Air is so unreliable that all of those combos are a 25% bet in the middle of a game (for every N-Air). 25% chance is still not bad though. A 25% chance kill combo on Fast Fallers around 60-70% is actually very good, but the reason I haven't advertised any of these great combos is because even though I labbed them and practiced them so hard, it still seems like a complete guess for me (N-Airs trajectory).

I once wrote in these forums that if anyone was able to understand N-Air I could bring forth 50% true combos on different chars and kill combos at 60% for some chars. These are some of the combos I was talking about.





https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g/videos

That is my youtube. I don't know how long the videos will take to load.

Keep in kind it's a 20 minute video where I just talk **** 15 minutes of the time while trying to get the counter to show it's a true combo. But I do DI away so that no one can claim: "It can be DIed away!". So since the video proves that the counter registers it as a combo AND that it can't be DIed away, it's safe to say that it is in fact a true combo.

In the 2 vids I show the first combo we talked about, the combo I talk about in this post (the 50% kill combo). I also show the cookie-cutter D-Tilt->DJ U-Air->F-Air (which deals 25-29% damage). I show how that combo true combos from around 65%-110% (and kill at 110%). I also show that Jab->Disable is a "semi" true combo on certain chars.




So basically RayNoire, once a Mewtwo player is playing at it's finest, landing D-Tilt at ANY % means 30-50% on Falcon. Landing D-Tilt after 65% means death. This is the future of the matchup. Getting D-Throw to U-Air to Knee isn't "the future", it's the present. The future only means Mewtwo perfecting said combos and Mewtwo getting buffed which means good things. I think this matchup can only get easier tbh.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Jab->Disable can be shielded or jabbed by Falcon since he falls so fast.







I made a video but it's not very organized or edited because I don't have the time right now. I have some other really cool combos (specially on floaties) but for now those will do.

You can start the combo from any portion, you can even vary it. If you land a FF N-air you can do D-Tilt to N-Air to D-Tilt to F-Air to F-Air. You can also start the combo with an U-Tilt.



Normally in the air I mostly go for wall B-Airs or just YOLO N-Airs to the face. Most of my N-Airs seem like they are very risky, but more often than not they aren't at all. I can only get punished if you predict it and N-Air before me, otherwise the way I space it and move during it make it completely safe. As long as I don't get predicted it's an 100% safe approach and it's my #1 approach tool. Also if you jump towards him and he starts N-Airing you (to catch your YOLO N-Air) then just space an F-Air and make him pay for that.

Being above Falcon is a no-no though, try to never be above him, always below.




Also keep in mind that DJ U-Air true combos into Mewtwo's aerials since 60%. From 60 until about 80% you can actually true combo it into FF N-Air and continue the combo with a true combo D-Tilt!

Basically, D-Tilt->DJ U-Air->FF N-Air->D-Tilt->DJ U-Air->F-Air is an actual thing at 60% vs Falcon (Deals 50%+ and kills if done correctly).

I actually showed part of the above combo in the video but I was unable to true combo the D-Tilt after the FF N-Air but it can, 100% true combo. You can believe me or not on this (since I tried for like 5 minutes and wasn't able to), but FF N-Air does true combo into D-Tilt if you can learn how to "drop" opponents at the specific height you need to.

As I said I have labbed many different combos for Mewtwo, it's just that N-Air is so unreliable that all of those combos are a 25% bet in the middle of a game (for every N-Air). 25% chance is still not bad though. A 25% chance kill combo on Fast Fallers around 60-70% is actually very good, but the reason I haven't advertised any of these great combos is because even though I labbed them and practiced them so hard, it still seems like a complete guess for me (N-Airs trajectory).

I once wrote in these forums that if anyone was able to understand N-Air I could bring forth 50% true combos on different chars and kill combos at 60% for some chars. These are some of the combos I was talking about.





https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g/videos

That is my youtube. I don't know how long the videos will take to load.

Keep in kind it's a 20 minute video where I just talk **** 15 minutes of the time while trying to get the counter to show it's a true combo. But I do DI away so that no one can claim: "It can be DIed away!". So since it proves that the counter registers it as a combo AND that it can't be DIed away, it's safe to say that it is in fact a true combo.

Thanks a lot!

Also, is it okay if I add this combo and video to the combo thread?

Did you check out the Nair KB thread I posted? I tried it with other characters and got the same results. I also find that if you mess it up, (DI forward) they usually fly backwards. I will be doing more testing on this, but I think I might have found a pattern... Like maybe it isn't so much where they are hit but which way you DI? Anyways, just a thought.

Again, many thanks!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Okay I know for a fact that sweetspot Dtilt does not work for that combo. Are you doing this in Training Mode with no DI?

Falcon does have a stronger neutral (actually that's a humongous understatement, he bodies us in neutral and that's basically why this MU is so bad). He has the trump card that beats every single one of our options. All he has to do is vary his timing or wait for us to commit and land 3 grabs (actually more like 2, by the time we reset to neutral we'll be at knee % most likely) with the easiest grab to land in the game.

Remember when ZeRo basically said every Falcon player sucks? He was right. Very, very few Falcons play optimally because he's known as a character you play for style, and his optimal playstyle is Sonic-esque in its dullness. And of those very few, there are even fewer that know the Mewtwo matchup and that would even attempt a Dthrow-Knee. So at the moment, other characters are bigger threats to your average tournament-goer because of MU inexperience (The reason you pick a low tier in the first place). But MUs aren't based on people that don't know them.

"It's about getting good reads" is the hallmark of a bad MU. Everybody can make reads.

What ZeRo was saying was just to build the hype of the smash scene... Have you ever heard of Acid, Fatality or Max Ketchum? They are all pretty good. Fatality even got top 8 at SSC. Just saying that there are good CF players out there...

 

[Chiroz]

Thanks a lot!

Also, is it okay if I add this combo and video to the combo thread?

Did you check out the Nair KB thread I posted? I tried it with other characters and got the same results. I also find that if you mess it up, (DI forward) they usually fly backwards. I will be doing more testing on this, but I think I might have found a pattern... Like maybe it isn't so much where they are hit but which way you DI? Anyways, just a thought.

Again, many thanks!

You can use it for sure but I think once you watch the video you might think against it. While it does prove the combo is a true combo it's a 20 minute video of me rambling, it isn't fun to watch xD. I might just make a better video that shows the combo in a "cool" manner. Be sure to give me credit though if you do use it.

You can use the other combo I posted on the thread, the DJ Uair 50% kill combo, but remember to specify that it works at very specific %s that depend on your opponents weight and fallspeed. If you want to know the specific %s it works for X char you basically have to lab it, and that % might not be kill % (so it might not kill). Against some chars it might not true combo at all (like Jiggz probably).



I haven't checked the thread you made. I will soon. If you or anyone figures out N-Air the ways I can advance the Mewtwo meta will be incredible . I will be sure to check it out.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You can use it for sure but I think once you watch the video you might think against it. While it does prove the combo is a true combo it's a 20 minute video of me rambling, it isn't fun to watch xD. I might just make a better video that shows the combo in a "cool" manner. Be sure to give me credit though if you do use it.

You can use the other combo I posted on the thread, the DJ Uair 50% kill combo, but remember to specify that it works at very specific %s that depend on your opponents weight and fallspeed. If you want to know the specific %s it works for X char you basically have to lab it, and that % might not be kill % (so it might not kill). Against some chars it might not true combo at all (like Jiggz probably).



I haven't checked the thread you made. I will soon. If you or anyone figures out N-Air the ways I can advance the Mewtwo meta will be incredible . I will be sure to check it out.

I will be sure to add it! And don't worry, I will give you full credit for both the video and discovery

I will probably just put the link for the video as proof that the combo works and tell people that the video isn't the best quality and is sorta long.

 

[RayNoire]

I just made a video where I will show you. Keep in mind it's 20 minutes long because I had to do it until every small part of the combo registered as a true combo on the counter so that you could see. I am also controlling Falcon and DIng him upwards + away and downwards + away so that you can see it true combos no matter the DI.



Pick Falcon and play me online, simple as that. You are claiming there's literally 0 Mewtwo can do vs Falcon on that given scenario, since you already know the scenario then you should be winning every time. If we truly have nothing that beats out Dash Grab then you will just always win by just Dash Grabbing me. I'll even make it fair and say that if you grab me anywhere in between 50-60% it's a free stock, since that's around the % you can kill me with Knee. Anything above 60% and I can already DI out, anything below 50% and I won't die.

Keep in mind that online you have a major advantage since it's harder for me to react to anything.



There not being good Falcon's doesn't mean anything to me, unlike you I don't make my analysis based on who has wrecked me which is exactly the point I am making. I make my analysis based on the tools each char can use against each other. Obviously I can't know of every single tool every single char has until I've seen it, but Falcon Dash Grab to U-Air chains and Falcon Dash Grab to guaranteed Knee is a tool that's been known since day one, so I have already made my analysis of those tools vs what Mewtwo has.

That paragraph leads me to believe that until you get wrecked you won't understand a matchup, which is exactly what I was saying before and it's the reason I asked you to play a professional Sheik, because just playing one will show you how easy Falcon is compared to Sheik (for Mewtwo).



You are right, getting good reads is about the bread and butter of bad MUs, which is why Mewtwo is considered a "read-based" char, because his punishes are really good but his overall MU spread is horrible. I was trying to make a point that while Falcon is for sure a bad matchup, Mewtwo has similar problems with just about any other char, it's just that Falcon gets better rewards out of it than other chars do. Which does mean he's harder, don't get me wrong, but what I am saying is that Falcon is neither impossible nor our worst matchup.

I don't usually play online, but I might take you up on this. I'm currently away in IL but maybe next week we can lab it out.

Although remember that online, lots of things are safe that aren't offline. This extends to Mewtwo as well as Falcon. I have no idea how anything plays out on WiFi. But it might be interesting anyway.

 

[Chiroz]

I don't usually play online, but I might take you up on this. I'm currently away in IL but maybe next week we can lab it out.

Although remember that online, lots of things are safe that aren't offline. This extends to Mewtwo as well as Falcon. I have no idea how anything plays out on WiFi. But it might be interesting anyway.

I mean, none of Mewtwo's attacks become safe online. 13 frames of lag isn't exactly "safe". And I would say that Falcon's aerials are already safe enough vs Mewtwo to the point where I can't (and won't) blame it on online. Mewtwo can barely punish Falcon anyways since his jab is so good.


I am not claiming that I will win this match, all I am saying is that playing from Falcon's perspective will help you understand the matchup a bit more probably.

 

[Browny]

The point is that this matchup, in the future and assuming no changes, will be this game's worst and will approach the worst matchups of the other games.

Did you play Brawl at all?

Mewtwo vs Falcon is no where near as bad as dozens of brawl matchups. The fact that you can get grabbed and not instantly die already makes it better than

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Were all basically 0-death from one grab and these were not hard grabs to land.

 

[RayNoire]

Did you play Brawl at all?

Mewtwo vs Falcon is no where near as bad as dozens of brawl matchups. The fact that you can get grabbed and not instantly die already makes it better than

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Were all basically 0-death from one grab and these were not hard grabs to land.

That was in a game where you could actually land safely, and Falcon's grab is easier to land than most of them. Also, with his advantage state and our disadvantage, "basically 0-death" isn't really a humongous leap.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Any tips for the Rob/Mewtwo MU or the Fox/Mewtwo MU?

 

[Nobie]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one option to thwart Captain Falcon's dash grab simply dashing forward to throw off the timing of his grab?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one option to thwart Captain Falcon's dash grab simply dashing forward to throw off the timing of his grab?

I guess it would depend on the skill of the CF, if you were facing someone like Fatality then probably not, but if you are facing random Joe from Iowa then there is a good chance that would work.

 

[Karsticles]

I have no idea what to do against Wario's bike. If he wheelies at the right time, it beats Fair and Nair. Shadow Ball must be ~3/4 charged to kill it, and that only does 6% for a lot of work. If he turns the bike at the right time, you can't shield grab. It's incredibly annoying. Do I just have to roll past it and run away?

 

[Nobie]

I have no idea what to do against Wario's bike. If he wheelies at the right time, it beats Fair and Nair. Shadow Ball must be ~3/4 charged to kill it, and that only does 6% for a lot of work. If he turns the bike at the right time, you can't shield grab. It's incredibly annoying. Do I just have to roll past it and run away?

Shouldn't dash attack work?

 

[Karsticles]

Shouldn't dash attack work?

Lol, it trades.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This is what happens when Mewtwo's only good attack is Dtilt.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is what happens when Mewtwo's only good attack is Dtilt.

For crying out loud the only characters that can reliably hit Wario off his bike from the ground have either big swords or flamethrowers.

The only real answer to the bike is to just see what Wario does once he's on it. And it's important to realize that generally the best question to ask as Mewtwo is not "what move can beat this move", but "how can I avoid this move to stay safe".

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wait for fat man to make mistake. Bike too strong.

 

[Sonicninja115]

TheRealSkid we can discuss Cloud here!

Hit 1,000!

 

[TheRealSkid]

Sonicninja115 sure! Okay guys, I have been having trouble with cloud and I'd like some thoughts on the MU. Cloud outranges M2 and has just insane kill power (Limit down b anyone?) I know he just came out but what does everyone think?