Meta Pokemon Stadium - Mewtwo General Matchup Thread

[Parcheesy]

That's interesting to know. Is there any way to tell how much damage Luma currently has?

It's more or less just like Nana in Melee. There's no display for its health, but you can usually get a good feel depending on how far a light attack will send it. After 10-15% pretty much everything Mewtwo has will send it into tumble ( Except the tipper tail hits for whatever reason ), so you shouldn't ever be too concerned about not knowing Luma's precise health.

On the topic of Luma slaying, I'd dip into training mode yourself and find a good throw that will put you in a favorable position to kill Luma. All I can say for sure on the topic is f-throw is almost always going to be a bad idea with Luma around, as I've had several instances of being able to input an attack with Luma while Rosalina is being pelted by the shadow balls. Try to find one that will either put the Luma into hitstun, or something with a high base knockback with a short recovery. Either way, you want to put yourself in a position where you can prey on Luma while Rosalina is trying to reset to neutral, and before it has a chance to snap back to her.

 

[Chiroz]

It's more or less just like Nana in Melee. There's no display for its health, but you can usually get a good feel depending on how far a light attack will send it. After 10-15% pretty much everything Mewtwo has will send it into tumble ( Except the tipper tail hits for whatever reason ), so you shouldn't ever be too concerned about not knowing Luma's precise health.

On the topic of Luma slaying, I'd dip into training mode yourself and find a good throw that will put you in a favorable position to kill Luma. All I can say for sure on the topic is f-throw is almost always going to be a bad idea with Luma around, as I've had several instances of being able to input an attack with Luma while Rosalina is being pelted by the shadow balls. Try to find one that will either put the Luma into hitstun, or something with a high base knockback with a short recovery. Either way, you want to put yourself in a position where you can prey on Luma while Rosalina is trying to reset to neutral, and before it has a chance to snap back to her.

Down-Throw is nice because it hits Luma while not sending her away. It puts her in hitstun right next to you (so she can't react) while Rosa is flying away. Allows for you to hit Luma with some other attack right after.



On that note, since Luma is sent farther the more damage she takes is it possible to just tilt lock her until she has enough damage to be sent away? Assuming Rosa is not approaching but trying to attack (so Luma breaks out of it herself).

 

[Parcheesy]

Down-Throw is nice because it hits Luma while not sending her away. It puts her in hitstun right next to you (so she can't react) while Rosa is flying away. Allows for you to hit Luma with some other attack right after.



On that note, since Luma is sent farther the more damage she takes is it possible to just tilt lock her until she has enough damage to be sent away? Assuming Rosa is not approaching but trying to attack (so Luma breaks out of it herself).

Only happened once while I was testing, but I think you can indefinitely keep Luma next to you in hitstun with uptilts. So yeah, if you're ever in a situation where you can freely hit Luma without worrying about the crazy space lady, go for it.

If down throw always sends Luma into tumble, I'd use that throw exclusively before Rosalina is in kill percents. It seems like it would set up an interesting 50-50 where you can either take out Luma, or pressure the Rosa trying to defend it.

 

[Chiroz]

Only happened once while I was testing, but I think you can indefinitely keep Luma next to you in hitstun with uptilts. So yeah, if you're ever in a situation where you can freely hit Luma without worrying about the crazy space lady, go for it.

If down throw always sends Luma into tumble, I'd use that throw exclusively before Rosalina is in kill percents. It seems like it would set up an interesting 50-50 where you can either take out Luma, or pressure the Rosa trying to defend it.

Holy ****, yea, just tested it in training. You can U-Tilt lock Luma until she dies. That's hilarious. I wonder if Rosa can call her back though.

It's good to find out stuff that can help us deal with the MU.

 

[meleebrawler]

Are you sure the custom one does 5% damage, I thought it did much less to "balance" the fact that it's faster and has longer range. What's the tradeoff for choosing this custom then?

Nope. The default's "niche" is that it can't be reflected like the other two. But Rosalina is so good at poking
there's almost never a reason to not take shooting. The only real downside is that she can't use it while Luma is down.

 

[Chiroz]

Nope. The default's "niche" is that it can't be reflected like the other two. But Rosalina is so good at poking
there's almost never a reason to not take shooting. The only real downside is that she can't use it while Luma is down.

Apparently it does 4% at max range and 5% at close to mid range. It takes 9 hits without staling to kill Luma with the 4% hitbox. With staling that would probably be 11-12 hits. It would take a little less from close-mid range. It's still very little damage compared to Luma's health (which I think it's like 47% right?).

 

[meleebrawler]

Apparently it does 4% at max range and 5% at close to mid range. It takes 9 hits without staling to kill Luma with the 4% hitbox. With staling that would probably be 11-12 hits. It would take a little less from close-mid range. It's still very little damage compared to Luma's health (which I think it's like 47% right?).

Don't forget the 1.4x multiplier.

I'm not saying just sitting back reflecting bits is a great way to kill Luma, but it's still damage that can't really be ignored.
With this playing customs Rosalina mainly becomes a matter of playing around Luma Warp. Too far and Mewtwo
can charge Shadow Ball bit-by-bit or just reflect bits, too close and Mewtwo can box.

 

[Karsticles]

When Rosalina absorbs Shadow Ball, doesn't it gain an offensive hitbox? I have been hesitant in pursuing because of this.

 

[Chiroz]

When Rosalina absorbs Shadow Ball, doesn't it gain an offensive hitbox? I have been hesitant in pursuing because of this.

Gravity Pull or do you mean the Shadow Ball itself? Either way I think they both have no hitboxes after the absorption has started.

 

[Parcheesy]

Gravity Pull or do you mean the Shadow Ball itself? Either way I think they both have no hitboxes after the absorption has started.

So yeah...Any projectile attack retains its hitbox while it's circling in towards Rosalina. In addition to making some incredibly flashy doubles play possible, it lets extraordinarily aggressive Rosalina players use gravity pull as a hard read approach against projectiles. It's mostly useful against characters that fling projectiles like rice at a wedding ( Villager and Megaman come to mind ), but it's certainly something to be mindful of when firing point blank shadowballs.

( I'm not sure about how it modifies damage, it's either no multiplier, or a negative one. Again, one of the many wonderful things that's never been tested )

 

[Chiroz]

So yeah...Any projectile attack retains its hitbox while it's circling in towards Rosalina. In addition to making some incredibly flashy doubles play possible, it lets extraordinarily aggressive Rosalina players use gravity pull as a hard read approach against projectiles. It's mostly useful against characters that fling projectiles like rice at a wedding ( Villager and Megaman come to mind ), but it's certainly something to be mindful of when firing point blank shadowballs.

( I'm not sure about how it modifies damage, it's either no multiplier, or a negative one. Again, one of the many wonderful things that's never been tested )

Hmmm, it would seem I really lack knowledge of Rosalina.

I've never really played as her at all so my knowledge is completely restricted to what I have experienced playing against her, which is why I lack knowledge in certain departments. Honestly I've never been hit by my own projectile while she is absorbing it (and I have punished Rosa's a lot when they absorb Shadow Balls), didn't even know that could happen. I'll have to watch out for the future, lest my own Shadow Ball KOs me.

Does it happen for Ness' absorb as well?



Edit: Also, it's good to have these discussions. I am learning a lot which is what these discussions are for to be honest.

And I'll go ahead and test the multiplier to see how early our own Shadow Ball could kill us (might help you decide to take a risk or not in the future).



Edit 2: So after several, several tries I've noticed that no matter how close you are Rosalina normally eats the projectile right as you catch up to her. If you try to throw the projectile at point blank either you hit her through her down-B (which is really odd) or she just eats the projectile instantly with no "swirling" animation. I don't think it's possible to be hit by your own projectile in 1v1.

Maybe @ Parcheesy can illustrate me on whether there is some way to achieve this.

Something interesting is that Shadow Ball sometimes ignores the Down-B and still hits Rosa if thrown from point-blank range. Not that that's going to happen very often anyways.

 

[Parcheesy]

GP does have a 'deadzone' close to Rosalina. It usually doesn't come into play because using the move at the ranges where this would apply would be silly.

I've only really used GP offensively against Villager, poking him with his own Lloyds and slingshots, but it should be possible against shadowball. Note that the move essentially works like a funnel, in that the spiraling effect tends to only occur when a projectile enters the outermost parts of its effect. If you're trying to test the reflect damage, try shorthopping with Rosalina and using down special when the shadowball would normally pass beneath her.

Go ahead and test the damage, but I really don't think this would amount to anything more than a gimmick. Hitting Mewtwo with his own shadowball via GP has too many conditionals for it to be practical.

 

[Kisatamura]

I don't have that much practice against Mewtwo as a doc main, so most of what I'll be stating is just kinda conjecture and what I've observed, but still.

Mewtwo outranges in neutral due to attacks like bair being pretty lengthy, so I usually prefer to go defensive when Mewtwo is approaching in the air since fair is incredibly good against Doc: sends opponents at horizontal angles, and Doc hates recovering horizontally. That being said, Shadow Ball can be reflected so just use caution with it: you can also deflect pills to force Doc to approach.

I really don't know who is better at close range. Mewtwo does have fast moves, but so does Doc. Making it better for Doc is the fact that Mewtwo is quite big and floaty giving Doc some setups with Jab to UpB.

When I have Mewtwo offstage, I think it's better that the Mewtwo mix up how they recover back to the stage because Doc can cover the edge with Dr. Tornado, and Mewtwo's Teleport will be outprioritized.

I wish I could talk more about this, but I rarely get the chance to fight against Mewtwo in environments other than FG, and even then I view Mewtwo as a character that can kill, but is easily KO'd himself.

 

[AmishTechnology]

When Rosalina absorbs Shadow Ball, doesn't it gain an offensive hitbox? I have been hesitant in pursuing because of this.

Can't recall ever being hit with stuff like Samus laser. I think this only applies to hard items and maybe stuff like hydrant, I think Shadow Ball is good-to-go.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just dropping some quick thoughts on Mario:

Mario is mobile and has really fast moves, which can let him really put pressure on Mewtwo's shield
which he can't respond to properly. Mewtwo's light weight can actually work to his advantage by blunting the effectiveness
of some of Mario's low percent combos. The biggest KO threat in this matchup is Usmash, though if Mario gets rage
bthrow and bair also become threats. Fsmash has Mario lean back which can cause Mewtwo to misspace and most likely
get KO'd so be careful of that too.

Mewtwo generally outdamages Mario on a per-hit basis however and has some disjoints that can take advantage
of Mario's poor reach with precise use. Recovering low is generally fairly safe against Mario as long as you mind the
risk of being hit out of your second jump, and conversely his recovery is quite linear so it shouldn't be too difficult
to get in his way.

So in short, stay on your toes to avoid his swifter kill moves and don't let Mario push you into using your shield too
much. Keep moving to maintain a good position.

 

[wtf_mike]

Vs Rosy I would put this MU at 60:40 for me

Pros;
Mewtwo has that long ass tail Utilt and Ftilt get me a lot (I play quite aggressively)
Juggling is more difficult because of floatyness.
OoS options are very quick allowing Luma to fall into hitstun fast.

Cons:
Light weight means Usmash or Luma Jab stings kill around low percents.
Shadowball useless as safe approach is gone.
One pressured its hard to get out of Lumas whirlwind
Easily gimpable if hit out of double jump or anticipated Teleport

Overall this MU requires constant pressure as Mewtwo controls space well. I would recommend a hit and run approach, being patient and baiting Rosy. People constantly say to get rid of Luma first and I agree but once Luma is gone SoRo is still a powerhouse capable of getting in your face, which seems to be one of Mewtwo's weaknesses.

 

[meleebrawler]

Vs Rosy I would put this MU at 60:40 for me

Pros;
Mewtwo has that long *** tail Utilt and Ftilt get me a lot (I play quite aggressively)
Juggling is more difficult because of floatyness.
OoS options are very quick allowing Luma to fall into hitstun fast.

Cons:
Light weight means Usmash or Luma Jab stings kill around low percents.
Shadowball useless as safe approach is gone.
One pressured its hard to get out of Lumas whirlwind
Easily gimpable if hit out of double jump or anticipated Teleport

Overall this MU requires constant pressure as Mewtwo controls space well. I would recommend a hit and run approach, being patient and baiting Rosy. People constantly say to get rid of Luma first and I agree but once Luma is gone SoRo is still a powerhouse capable of getting in your face, which seems to be one of Mewtwo's weaknesses.

Shadow Ball is far from useless, it's endlag is low enough to punish Rosa for absorbing it at midrange
and she isn't exactly fast enough to stuff it's startup a lot at that range either. Customs DO make it harder to fire them
off, though, but once Luma is gone it's business as usual.

She's not especially good at getting in to pressure either, dash attack is very punishable (and if Luma is still around,
free dthrow smack) and nair is good for spacing but not so much getting in. Shadow balls really can put on the pressure
when Luma isn't around. While she can definitely still get work done without Luma, saying she's a powerhouse is
a stretch since her attack power is quite low without him.

Rosalina is far more easily gimped than Mewtwo who can dodge or attack to protect his second jump. Launch Star
does nothing to protect Rosa so Mewtwo just has to stay between her and the stage to intercept.

Overall though it's really a pretty even matchup that will probably go to the person who makes less mistakes.
Customs off Mewtwo has an edge since his shadow ball pressure is real against Rosa, but on this is mitigated by
Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit making her better at pestering Mewtwo from a distance.

 

[shmenjamin]

I really like Mewtwo in general it's just i have not learned how to properly combo with him. At first i disliked him but now he is awesome :D

Yea he has some close to guarantied combos off of the sideb like sideb to charged shadow ball or down smash. And the side b hits through shield

 

[Karsticles]

I request that we talk about Fox next. This character is my worst matchup.

 

[Karsticles]

https://gfycat.com/GoodnaturedJubilantAlaskanmalamute

This was my fear I described earlier.

 

[Chiroz]

https://gfycat.com/GoodnaturedJubilantAlaskanmalamute

This was my fear I described earlier.

We can't shoot Shadow Ball upwards. That's the thing, as I described in my post: No matter what range you throw Shadow Ball from, by the time you reach Rosalina it's already too small and inside Rosalina to hurt you. I tried throwing it at point blank and all it does is hit Rosalina (since she has a deadzone inside of herself).

The reason why it hurts Megaman is because he throws the projectile upwards as Rosalina is falling and he is rising, so he reaches her too quickly, That will never happen with Mewtwo's Shadow Ball unless Rosalina is short hopping towards Mewtwo or something. And even then I don't know if it would hit as the "vacuum" starts on the bottom, so she would have to be short hopping over you.

 

[Karsticles]

We can't shoot Shadow Ball upwards. That's the thing, as I described in my post: No matter what range you throw Shadow Ball from, by the time you reach Rosalina it's already too small and inside Rosalina to hurt you. I tried throwing it at point blank and all it does is hit Rosalina (since she has a deadzone inside of herself).

The reason why it hurts Megaman is because he throws the projectile upwards as Rosalina is falling and he is rising, so he reaches her too quickly, That will never happen with Mewtwo's Shadow Ball unless Rosalina is short hopping towards Mewtwo or something. And even then I don't know if it would hit as the "vacuum" starts on the bottom, so she would have to be short hopping over you.

Oh, I know that now. But you said you weren't aware that Gravity Pull can hit with the projectile it absorbs so I thought I would provide an example.

 

[MagiusNecros]

When Rosalina Gravity pulls a Projectile she gets ownership so you can be hit by it if you are close enough.

 

[Spirst]

Will go over this later during the day and try to see what the general consensus was overall but in the interest of moving on and not wasting more time, we'll be moving forward. The week wasn't too bad in terms of discussion. Hopefully it'll continue to pick up in the future. Like I said, I will update this more later. In the meantime, let's shift discussion to week 2.

WEEK 2:

Pits are lumped together due to how similar they are. Fox was requested and is quite tedious. Sheik is...yeah. Like before, I'll let the other boards know what's going on.

 

[meleebrawler]

Just some quick two cents on each:

Fox has that pesky jab and utilt which can string several hits, and his Usmash can be killer on floaty Mewtwo.
Though aside from that and Uair he'll have some trouble sealing the deal once Mewtwo's damage is high; his throws
aren't very good. Still, he definitely does get chances to land those kill moves every time he gains the advantage
so don't get lax. He is also easily comboed due to his fast falling speed.

Sheik is basically a more annoying but less potent Fox. Needles will disrupt Shadow Ball pretty well and fair can
be tough to challenge while stringing several hits easily. Her tilts chain easily too. However, for all of her speed and safety,
she has an even more difficult time KOing than Fox. Almost all of her kill moves require a hard read to land. Bouncing Fish
is fairly predictable offstage and punishable onstage if you dodge it. If you can avoid those moves you'll likely actually get some significant rage to work with.

Don't really have much to say about Pits; they don't really have particularly outstanding traits to note. Mewtwo can reflect
their arrows fairly easily in neutral. They have good dash-ins so they can play outside Mewtwo's range to punish; use shadow
balls to pester in response. Their reflector is too unwieldy to be used on reaction. Pit is the harder of the two since his arrows
are harder to dodge and his arm is better at killing Mewtwo.

 

[Smog Frog]

from my (admittedly limited) experience with , holding shield against jab is the best idea. shielding comes out quicker than usmash and i've beaten dsmash with it. also, once you get used to the audio cue for 's needles, it becomes practical to reflect them, thus forcing her to come to you. but then you have fair to deal with. from my limited experience, here's my opinions on the mu

: winnable, but difficult. secondary preferred.(for the ratio type, i say its 6:4)

: winnable, but super annoying, and super difficult. secondary preferred.(i think this one is close to 65:35)

again take my opinions with a grain(shaker?) of salt since i have a limited experience.

 

[Chiroz]

from my (admittedly limited) experience with , holding shield against jab is the best idea. shielding comes out quicker than usmash and i've beaten dsmash with it. also, once you get used to the audio cue for 's needles, it becomes practical to reflect them, thus forcing her to come to you. but then you have fair to deal with. from my limited experience, here's my opinions on the mu

: winnable, but difficult. secondary preferred.(for the ratio type, i say its 6:4)

: winnable, but super annoying, and super difficult. secondary preferred.(i think this one is close to 65:35)

again take my opinions with a grain(shaker?) of salt since i have a limited experience.

The Fox you were playing against isn't good. Double Jab to U-Smash is guaranteed for Fox (on Mewtwo). Larry was the one who told me this and I tested it extensively with a friend who doesn't even play Fox for like 2 hours. Told him to Double-Jab me into U-Smash and I tried shielding, jumping, air dodging, DIng different ways, attacking, everything.

My friend missed the timing of the jabs many times over and I was able to hit him or jump away but there were certain times when he hit me even when I was doing the optimal DI while attacking/jumping which lead me to the conclusion that, just as Larry said, it's in reality unavoidable, it's just easy to miss it. But if the Fox is good then he won't miss it and it's a guaranteed combo like Larry told me. Still obviously you shouldn't give up, always try to avoid it in case your opponent misses. The easiest avoidance is not shield though, it's double jump + air dodge or double jump + f-air (so you don't land while lagging).



Larry also told me that Fox can't Double-Jab to Down-Smash on anyone unless they are offstage and it's a guaranteed combo when they are offstage which is why if you notice he always drags people off stage before finishing the combo with the D-Smash. On stage Larry always ends with a grab or U-Tilt (This might be why you've been shielding Down-Smash, since it isn't guaranteed on most/any of the cast anyways).

 

[MetaBhreat]

Hello all, I have minor experience with the Sheik/Mewtwo matchup so I'll throw in my two cents.

I know how much Mewtwo loves his Shadowball, but be careful with it. Needles can disrupt, as was mentioned, but Bouncing Fish can punish as well if we're in range. Dodge the BF or it's easily punishable.

A majority of the matches will be fairly fast paced. BF/needles beat Shadowball in neutral but a Sheik can't needle camp because of confusion. Odds are there will be little, if no, camping.
Mostly, I would say don't forget that you're playing what I consider to be the epitome of a glass cannon. Yes, Sheik struggles to get kill against the majority of the cast, and she's light, but Mewtwo is light too, and he has a big hurtbox. Sheiks will not struggle nearly as much against Mewtwo when it comes to getting KO's. At least is my experience.

I know that I for one need a bit more time to understand this matchup. Hopefully more Sheiks will throw in their two cents as well. Hope this gave a little insight into our side of the matchup.

Good hunting.

 

[meleebrawler]

Hello all, I have minor experience with the Sheik/Mewtwo matchup so I'll throw in my two cents.

I know how much Mewtwo loves his Shadowball, but be careful with it. Needles can disrupt, as was mentioned, but Bouncing Fish can punish as well if we're in range. Dodge the BF or it's easily punishable.

A majority of the matches will be fairly fast paced. BF/needles beat Shadowball in neutral but a Sheik can't needle camp because of confusion. Odds are there will be little, if no, camping.
Mostly, I would say don't forget that you're playing what I consider to be the epitome of a glass cannon. Yes, Sheik struggles to get kill against the majority of the cast, and she's light, but Mewtwo is light too, and he has a big hurtbox. Sheiks will not struggle nearly as much against Mewtwo when it comes to getting KO's. At least is my experience.

I know that I for one need a bit more time to understand this matchup. Hopefully more Sheiks will throw in their two cents as well. Hope this gave a little insight into our side of the matchup.

Good hunting.

How exactly is Mewtwo supposed to reliably reflect needles with the slow startup of confusion?

 

[MetaBhreat]

You tell me, friendo. Such is my (limited) experience.

 

[Dagon97]

For the Shiek/Mewtwo match up, neither of the two charecters can really get any sort of offstage shenanigans on eachother considering that if both Shiek and Mewtwo are precise they will both get a free ledge.
I have seen a lot of talk considering Shiek not being able to camp Mewtwo due to Confusion, when a projectile is relfected the range of needles aren't refreshed threfore if far enough then the confusion reflected needles won't reach Shiek and if penetrating needles are in effect then it won't be clanking with other needles on the way back. Mewtwo and Shiek can both DI out of eachother's combos fairly easily. Mewtwo's dair can crossup Shiek's shield preventing any sore of punish, the same goes for Mewtwo's nair. Shadowball on an upclose Shiek's shield is difficult to deal with because it slides Shiek away and she can't do anything. Shiek does not have to approach Mewtwo at all, Battlefield is Shiek's best stage in this match up as well as Lylat.

 

[sparkaura]

From my experiences from playing my roommates shiek, angled f-til and up tilt disrupt a lot of her approaches. D-tilt can snuff some of her ground approach and we get a free combo if we manage to hit her. This MU is,imo, is about playing defense with tilts/shadowball and forcing shiek to do something reckless and we punish. She does out camp m2 even with confusion, you cant reflect all of Shieks needles if she has a full charge on hand. A couple will get through and we eat like 3 % but its still super annoying.

Super hard MU though, because shieks approach and fast moves disrupt a lot of our moves and we are tall enough to get hit with sweets pot u-smash on the ground, so yeah look out for that lol. Eff shiek.....

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit & Edgy main, and I'm kinda the reliable go-to guy of those two if I say so myself. Imma just spoiler this because it's kinda huge.

Spoiler

Anyway, with how few differences the two have, Pittwo is basically just a few custom moves for Pit, and in this matchup Pit would likely be the best choice.

I've found that it's a really, really stubborn and slow matchup. Pit's attacks largely outrange Mewtwo's and both have capable projectiles.

Mewtwo's confusion means diddly-squat as far as hitting Pit with arrows goes because we just angle them at the last second so they fly into the ground when reflected. Pit can also charge arrows indefinitely by spinning around, so if you guys shield too early you're going to get an arrow up your butt. Since we have RC arrows, you really won't get much charging in at all. Even if you do, then the unique properties of our reflector prevent us from being punished for a reflector break putting the burden entirely on Mewtwo. Say, what would happen if we reflected it at more of a mid-range? Could it get to the point where you can't reflect it quick enough?

Pit's moves mostly outrange Mewtwo's, so you're primarily going to want to stick with tail attacks. Wonder what happens when Pit's Fair hits Mewtwo's Bair... Hm. Most of the neutral game boils down to Pit forcing Mewtwo into the air (facing him of course) and then outranging him with Fairs and baiting dodges. Pit catches Mewtwo's dodges pretty easily since he falls so slow. When Mewtwo is on the ground, Pit is largely going to go for punishes and shooting him with arrows. Maybe even approach with Fairs...

Anywho, Pit is the type of character who really benefits from rage. Tons of combos and survivability out the wazoo, but weak and specific kill moves. Has tons of them though. Fspecial, Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash 2nd hit, and Bair KO relatively quickly while Fair, Uair and Fthrow lag behind... But then again this is Mewtwo. I've gotten Fthrow KOs off of Mewtwo while he was at 90%. So basically once you take enough damage you better keep on your tippy-toes if you like breathing. Mewtwo is good with KO moves too, but Pit's are much safer. You're going to need early kills just so Pit can't abuse rage.

Pit's customs are kinda eh. Nothing that really isn't obvious... You'll only ever see the Nspecials and Dspecials used.

Really though, even with all I've said it's really not unwinnable. It's not like Pit vs. Robin where Robin basically can't do anything, but it's definitely not even either. I'd like more experience in the matchup before I'd say it's either a slight or significant advantage for Pit, but I can't imagine the match going down much differently then what I've described.

 

[meleebrawler]

Pit & Edgy main, and I'm kinda the reliable go-to guy of those two if I say so myself. Imma just spoiler this because it's kinda huge.

Spoiler

Anyway, with how few differences the two have, Pittwo is basically just a few custom moves for Pit, and in this matchup Pit would likely be the best choice.

I've found that it's a really, really stubborn and slow matchup. Pit's attacks largely outrange Mewtwo's and both have capable projectiles.

Mewtwo's confusion means diddly-squat as far as hitting Pit with arrows goes because we just angle them at the last second so they fly into the ground when reflected. Pit can also charge arrows indefinitely by spinning around, so if you guys shield too early you're going to get an arrow up your butt. Since we have RC arrows, you really won't get much charging in at all. Even if you do, then the unique properties of our reflector prevent us from being punished for a reflector break putting the burden entirely on Mewtwo. Say, what would happen if we reflected it at more of a mid-range? Could it get to the point where you can't reflect it quick enough?

Pit's moves mostly outrange Mewtwo's, so you're primarily going to want to stick with tail attacks. Wonder what happens when Pit's Fair hits Mewtwo's Bair... Hm. Most of the neutral game boils down to Pit forcing Mewtwo into the air (facing him of course) and then outranging him with Fairs and baiting dodges. Pit catches Mewtwo's dodges pretty easily since he falls so slow. When Mewtwo is on the ground, Pit is largely going to go for punishes and shooting him with arrows. Maybe even approach with Fairs...

Anywho, Pit is the type of character who really benefits from rage. Tons of combos and survivability out the wazoo, but weak and specific kill moves. Has tons of them though. Fspecial, Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash 2nd hit, and Bair KO relatively quickly while Fair, Uair and Fthrow lag behind... But then again this is Mewtwo. I've gotten Fthrow KOs off of Mewtwo while he was at 90%. So basically once you take enough damage you better keep on your tippy-toes if you like breathing. Mewtwo is good with KO moves too, but Pit's are much safer. You're going to need early kills just so Pit can't abuse rage.

Pit's customs are kinda eh. Nothing that really isn't obvious... You'll only ever see the Nspecials and Dspecials used.

Really though, even with all I've said it's really not unwinnable. It's not like Pit vs. Robin where Robin basically can't do anything, but it's definitely not even either. I'd like more experience in the matchup before I'd say it's either a slight or significant advantage for Pit, but I can't imagine the match going down much differently then what I've described.

Spoiler

I'll tell you what happens when Mewtwo Bair collides with any attack: Mewtwo gets hit unless he spaces perfectly
since he sticks his butt out.

You should also know that Shadow Balls don't necessarily need to be charged to be useful, and while they have
some startup their endlag is very low making for good pressure. Given how Pit will likely be dancing just outside
the range of most of Mewtwo's attacks this is pretty helpful for him.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'll tell you what happens when Mewtwo Bair collides with any attack: Mewtwo gets hit unless he spaces perfectly
since he sticks his butt out.

You should also know that Shadow Balls don't necessarily need to be charged to be useful, and while they have
some startup their endlag is very low making for good pressure. Given how Pit will likely be dancing just outside
the range of most of Mewtwo's attacks this is pretty helpful for him.

So Pit's Fair would beat out Mewtwo's Bair most of the time? Good to know.

Yeah, I know it doesn't need to be charged to be useful, but Pit can just jump over and rain arrows down. Fullhop arrows have no landing lag, and it just so happens that they can be aimed straight into Mewtwo at that range. Pit's a pretty effective anti-camp character.

 

[Karsticles]

I think part of the gaming experience is how a character "feels" in terms of the emotional state that character invokes. I like for my character to induce real terror and panic into the opponent. A feeling of helplessness. I feel like Bowser makes people feel that way when I get good reads with him. When Bowser is charging at you from across the screen, I know I find it terror-inducing.

I dont feel like Mewtwo has that effect. It drives me bonkers when people on Smashboards say Mewtwo hits like a heavy, because it is absolutely not true. He hits like your typical character. He has trouble KOing if you play him safe, so you have to take risks on a character that can't take risks. On so many occasions, I have been up a whole stock and lost a match because I need to KO someone. He just has this weird style of play that works well against characters without reflectors, where he forces people into the air due to his excellent ground game and then covers the air with his great aerial spacing game.

Then you get characters like Pikachu, Fox, Sheik, Sonic, and Captain Falcon, and the problem with these characters is Mewtwo just CANT play the ground game well against them. The reason is that they pretty much ignore Shadow Ball. They all ignore Shadow Ball for different reasons: Pikachu teleport attacks behind you. Fox has the best projectile reflector in the game. Sheik can beat Shadow Ball with the superior needles. Sonic can just run under Shadow Ball (lol). Captain Falcon is too fast to pressure.

So, against these characters, Mewtwo has to primarily rely on Dtilt. Except Dtilt isn't as good as it seems, and you can punish Mewtwo between swipes. It has a whole 20 frames of recovery, believe it or not. If the opponent gets in, you eat a lot of damage. If you get a max Dtilt poke, you get 5 damage with no guaranteed follow-up. That isn't a good economic proposition. Mewtwo's Fair is an awful poke, and his Bair basically isn't a poke. His jab has the same startup as Dtilt, and it isn't that good. Jab 2 is incredible, but the transition between Jab 1 and Jab 2 is horrendous, and I get grabbed between them all the time. Mewtwo might as well not have a Pivot Grab - it is truly atrocious. The Pivot Ftilt is solid, but you can't really get pivot space against opponents that are significantly faster than you, and the tilt has a 14 frame startup.

What we have left is Disable and Confusion, both with a lot of recovery, and Mewtwo's complete lack of offensive options. So I end up going for random short hop Nairs against these guys, because it hits a lot against people desperate to get in, and while it isn't safe, it isn't easy to punish, either. Especially if you don't play against Mewtwo a lot.

That is kind of my breakdown of why I think Mewtwo just can't win those Matchups. As sad as it makes me, I think I am going to have to pick up another character, though I will keep playing Mewtwo for matchups that I think are favorable for him.

I think the situation is fixable with frame data and hitbox changes alone, and we will see if we get some changes in the June 14th update. It feels like Sakurai put most of Mewtwo's neutral value into Shadow Ball, but he needs a plethora of safe options to work as the kind of character he is. He can't take risks or go for reads all the time like Bowser can.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Reflectors shouldn't be a problem for us since we have our own. Can you shed some light on why you believe otherwise?

 

[meleebrawler]

Reflectors shouldn't be a problem for us since we have our own. Can you shed some light on why you believe otherwise?

He probably thinks it's because Confusion is a bit slow to start. There are also some reflectors against which
you'll lose the volley with a fully charged ball, but that can be remedied by simply not using those.

 

[Karsticles]

Reflectors shouldn't be a problem for us since we have our own. Can you shed some light on why you believe otherwise?

Up close, we just don't have time to reflect back.

Far away, it's a reflect battle, and our reflect takes a little more skill and finesse than some other reflectors with more active frames.

The only reflector that is 100% better than ours is Fox's. He can just chill in that reflector while we sweat trying to swap Shadow Ball away. The main issue is that 99% of the projectiles in this game aren't worth reflecting. We have one of the 3 strongest, most reflect-worthy projectiles in the game. Most of the reflecting we do is our own Shadow Ball against other reflectors, but we lose most reflect battles because we have to be within a very particular range to reflect back, and our reflector loses to some others due to frame data.

If we go through the reflectors:
Fox - he wins for free
Falco - he wins up close, volleyball at far range, we win at mid range
Zelda - all based on when she starts the spin. If she reflects early, she'll get a second reflect right near the end of Nayru's Love, and we'll eat it. If she reflects mid or late, we win the exchange. Spacing-dependent, too. Complicated case.
Palutena - kind of like Zelda, but Reflect has some weird stuff that happens. Sometimes it seems to reflect back at Palutena on a double self-reflect. I don't fully understand this, but most Palutena players use Super Speed anyway.
Ness - not a reflector, but so damn annoying against a good Ness player.
Lucas - will be just like Ness.
Rob - see Zelda.
Mario - feels like he wins this due to better frame data, but I don't have a ton of experience in volleyball matches against him.
Dr. Mario - see Mario.
Game and Watch - ow, right?
Link - just has to not move to negate all your time and energy (so to speak!).
Pit - seems like we always win this one.
Dark Pit - see Pit.
Mii Gunner - never fought one, but it works like Fox's, right?
Megaman - Skull Shield is more mobile than most reflectors, and Megaman can keep moving while it's on. Highly variable, and sometimes Shadow Ball just decides to ignore Skull Shield. We can't ever "win" outside of this, though, because Megaman can still move while Skull Shield is up.
Villager - we are super screwed, haha. Worse than Fox.
Wario - gets fed and powered up.
Rosalina - gobbles it up and doesn't care.

Look at all those characters that just don't give a crap about Shadow Ball.

 

[Spirst]

Sorry everyone, been extremely busy with finals/personal life so haven't had much time for Smashboards and I've seldom played lately. Just want to let everyone know that this thread will be back on course starting on Monday and since I'll be free (or at least in comparison to lately), the stretch of inactivity shouldn't come up again.