Pokedex Entry 2: Meta Knight (Squirtle analysis added)

[Steeler]

alrighty, updated with a squirtle analysis.

i will add squirtle's overall matchup rating, ivysaur, and charizard soon, i'm just kind of burnt out right now...and have some homework to do.

i've probably been on the pt side of this matchup more than any other player out there has (and my mk friend has probably played more pt than any mk), so i feel pretty comfortable with it. but i may have made some mistakes, so let me know. comments, questions, etc.

 

[infernovia]

I think ivysaur does worse than squirtle.

 

[Fearmy]

well i played another MK, though he is good he isn't like omg M2K good. I was destroying him with squirtle, until he got a lucky Nair on me and had to shuttle loop D: Ivysaur was giving a fight out, but a dair to a Fair really pissed me off because Ivysaur got ownzored. Charizard was amazing. Freaking took down his last 2 stocks. Rocksmash kills very fast. Flamethrower First breath or something cuts through tornado. So does rocksmash. well that's what i got after i played him. oh well just my 2 cents NIGHT NIGHT

 

[zeta]

i've been playing metaknights lately. Imo its char>squir>ivy. Any metaknight can force ivy off the edge for a gimp. squirtle has enough speed to match up with mk. charizards power is also enough to match mk. Ivy however is lacking in the ability to compete with mk. If you try to space a mk with ivy you will get the rush down. Its inievitable. mk is to fast for ivy.

 

[Steeler]

AD's look at Squartle v MK has been added to the first post.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Charizard seems to be best.He has some options for Nado,He can kill metanight before he can kill him,and he is not as gimped as the other two.His grabs are also important. 50:50 maybe 55:45 Meta advange

Squirtle has a little touble dealing with metanight,until he goes offstage.Metanight's pressure comes into play.and will use Dair and other means to gimp you.Never leaving the stage is vital. 60:40

Ivysaur also should not leave the stage EVER!!!!!!for obvious reason. TRY TO GET A FEW BULLET SEEDS FOR CHARIZARD. 70:30

 

[Charizard92]

Charizard neutral vs MK? Well that should boost our Tier status at least.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Charizard neutral vs MK? Well that should boost our Tier status at least.

Yeah,but we still get are butts kicked by Snake and GW.Most other High tiers we have a chance with at least one Poke.Although the darn Stamina system,PT for high in Brawl+

 

[Steeler]

MK has a slight edge.

 

[Atash]

Hi guys - I'm a Luigi main who's decided that Pokemon are awesome... And I feet that I should comment on a few things.

With regards to tcanter's comment on Ivysaur's B-air:

I also know that he can nado through it

Against a non-button-mashed neutral MK special, Ivysaur's B-air, at the tip, will first clank with the attack (and cancel it in its entirety) and second smack the annoyance for a few percent. Also, a B-air against MK's drill rush clanks with the attack (but doesn't cancel it) and, as far as I have seen, either removes the hitbox over the course of the clanking or shrinks it down to the point that it only surrounds MK himself (what I observed: B-air clanked with Drill Rush, drill rush continued past to Ivy's upper right side, MK was not in contact with Ivy, but Ivy was within range of what normally should have been MK's drill rush's vacuum - that area to his sides that sucks people into the attack).

Just a little testing I've done (a confirmation from a second party would be nice).

also razor leaf interrupts and hits metaknight at the beginning of mach tornado, and if mk starts the tornado from a reasonable distance and stays on the ground, since that means they aren't mashing B to improve priority.

also fsmash is quite nice when it lands, i'm not sure of whether it'll go through fairs and the like. something to look into.

The MK player can tap the B button once every half second and maintain the tornado's priority (initial priority - not button-mash-bonanza priority) and level height - just a note.

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Regarding Ivysaur vs. Meta Knight, I see no reason why a perfectly spaced Ivy should ever lose to a MK. Ivy's B-air outranges and out-prioritizes MK's aerials, an MK approaching from above can be given some seeds to the face, and an MK approaching on the ground suffers again to Ivy's B-air (along with long range grabs and tilts). This assumes, of course, that MK doesn't have any absolutely ridiculous approaches that somehow can hit Ivysaur through her awesome B-air and bullet-seed range.

Given that no one can perfectly space indefinitely, unfortunately, such a match-up is not realistic (akin to Olimar's perfect camping vs. Meta Knight). However, would it not be plausible to say that the closer one gets to perfection, the more winnable the match becomes?

My (slightly rhetorical) question: how good of a defensive Ivy would be required to push the match-up (utilizing the assumption I made earlier) to a 50-50?

 

[Steeler]

(bair vs specials stuff)

every good MK will press (not necessarily mash) B to improve the MT priority enough that stuff like ivy bair and flamethrower will not cancel it or hit through.

Regarding Ivysaur vs. Meta Knight, I see no reason why a perfectly spaced Ivy should ever lose to a MK. Ivy's B-air outranges and out-prioritizes MK's aerials, an MK approaching from above can be given some seeds to the face, and an MK approaching on the ground suffers again to Ivy's B-air (along with long range grabs and tilts). This assumes, of course, that MK doesn't have any absolutely ridiculous approaches that somehow can hit Ivysaur through her awesome B-air and bullet-seed range.

Ivy doesn't have much of a spacing advantage against MK. on the ground, MK outranges you with ftilt/dtilt...ivy's range may actually be larger, but MK's tilts are safer on shield than Ivy's are because he doesn't spend as much time committed, on average. MK doesn't have to commit to all of ftilt. in the air ivy does outrange with one attack, which max 5% and is easily countered if the opponent is on the ground. it's a good answer to an aerial approach (that isn't MT) though.

MK just has to be patient and limit Ivysaur's options quite a bit with spaced fairs/ftilts/dtilts or a simple shield. he can simply shuttle loop out of shield to (pretty safely) punish a lot of stuff you try to do. this is stuff like bair, fair, ftilt, jabs.

MK has an absolutely ridiculous approach called MT that will always go through bair when done correctly. i don't know what MK's you've been playing, but every MK i've experienced will press B enough that the majority of attacks that cancel MT at the beginning will not work.

(but ivy fsmash does work pretty well for hitting MK out of tornado)

My (slightly rhetorical) question: how good of a defensive Ivy would be required to push the match-up (utilizing the assumption I made earlier) to a 50-50?

at the highest level of current skill, Ivy would have to be better than humanly possible right now to make it an even matchup. lol. olimar's defensive game is much more effective (due to how much safer it is) and that's generally agreed upon to be a disadvantage for olimar. i don't think you could ever make this an even matchup. ivy's defensive game really isn't that good because it is obviously defensively oriented yet has problems keeping the opponent out once it gets close inside. not enough safe moves.

but this is just my view.

 

[Toby.]

^ Steeler took the words out of my mouth.

 

[Atash]

Ivy doesn't have much of a spacing advantage against MK. on the ground, MK outranges you with ftilt/dtilt...ivy's range may actually be larger, but MK's tilts are safer on shield than Ivy's are because he doesn't spend as much time committed, on average. MK doesn't have to commit to all of ftilt. in the air ivy does outrange with one attack, which max 5% and is easily countered if the opponent is on the ground. it's a good answer to an aerial approach (that isn't MT) though.

MK just has to be patient and limit Ivysaur's options quite a bit with spaced fairs/ftilts/dtilts or a simple shield. he can simply shuttle loop out of shield to (pretty safely) punish a lot of stuff you try to do. this is stuff like bair, fair, ftilt, jabs.

Right... I'd like to add that shuttle loop can 'stuff' approaches. The same can apply to defensive play due to shuttle loop's long range... Forgot about that.

MK has an absolutely ridiculous approach called MT that will always go through bair when done correctly. i don't know what MK's you've been playing, but every MK i've experienced will press B enough that the majority of attacks that cancel MT at the beginning will not work.

Well - that's just the thing. I wasn't playing an MK, I was testing Ivy's B-air versus MK's MT. Admittedly, I wasn't button mashing different rates to test for the point at which the MT overpowers the B-air (my testing was out of casual curiosity), so I concede to that point. :-D

at the highest level of current skill, Ivy would have to be better than humanly possible right now to make it an even matchup. lol. olimar's defensive game is much more effective (due to how much safer it is) and that's generally agreed upon to be a disadvantage for olimar. i don't think you could ever make this an even matchup. ivy's defensive game really isn't that good because it is obviously defensively oriented yet has problems keeping the opponent out once it gets close inside. not enough safe moves.

but this is just my view.

Your view makes sense - but I hope a superior metagame evolves for the P.T. characters regardless (pun intended :-P ).

I've read over the course of this discussion that Charizard can grab MK out of near every attack with the exception perhaps of his glide attack (due to a possible progression to D-smash) and almost definitely his D-tilt. Sooo...

Regarding MK's D-tilt, does Charizard win or lose in the range category with his own tilts? I know that the F-tilt comes out surprisingly quick (but appears to have MK-punishable lag), but I haven't looked at the D-tilt at all.

Regarding MK's glide attack, wouldn't MK have to glide in low to attack with the glide attack into a D-smash, and if so, couldn't you spot that and react accordingly (preempt the grab the moment you see the sword flash - mental prep-work could increase the chances of immediately grabbing out of it)? Or is the timing really so ridiculously tight that such actions are questionably good at best?

Also, does Charizard have any attacks that clank with or overpower the glide attack? U-smash (the wing is disjointed, yes? no?)? Jump->flamethrower (too slow?)? B-air?

As you can probably tell, my curiosity didn't lead me into testing Charizard for anything (the first time I played P.T. was just yesterday - Ivy's range was too interesting for me to try any other pokemon :-D).

 

[Steeler]

flamethrower clanks and then hits through but is slow. rock smash will clank depending on both timing and positioning. sometimes the shards will come out and damage MK, sometimes they won't and nothing happens. often you are better off just shielding. unless mk messed up positioning and is directly above you, which is when you can utilt/usmash/uair even.

you can often grab MK out of glide attack if they don't space it perfectly. if it is nicely spaced then you should predict what the opponent likes to do and punish. for example, if they like to spot dodge as soon as the land (expecting you to dash in and grab), then you can flamethrower. or ftilt but you'll have to time that to come out toward the end of the spotdodge. if they like to dsmash immediately when they land, then shield and dtilt them or something if you are in range. or dash after the glide and shield the dsmash, then grab. dsmash is really funny to use, and rarely will MK jump as soon as it glide attacks. it also has more range than mk's dsmash. rock smash is always an option, but usually not the best one.

i think you can even fsmash if you perfect shield the glide attack and then immediately start it up, but i forget whether the mk dsmash slice that faces toward you is first or second. if it hits toward you first, then it isn't an option...along with a few of those attacks in the previous paragraph.

 

[Atash]

flamethrower clanks and then hits through but is slow. rock smash will clank depending on both timing and positioning. sometimes the shards will come out and damage MK, sometimes they won't and nothing happens. often you are better off just shielding. unless mk messed up positioning and is directly above you, which is when you can utilt/usmash/uair even.

you can often grab MK out of glide attack if they don't space it perfectly. if it is nicely spaced then you should predict what the opponent likes to do and punish. for example, if they like to spot dodge as soon as the land (expecting you to dash in and grab), then you can flamethrower. or ftilt but you'll have to time that to come out toward the end of the spotdodge. if they like to dsmash immediately when they land, then shield and dtilt them or something if you are in range. or dash after the glide and shield the dsmash, then grab. dsmash is really funny to use, and rarely will MK jump as soon as it glide attacks. it also has more range than mk's dsmash. rock smash is always an option, but usually not the best one.

i think you can even fsmash if you perfect shield the glide attack and then immediately start it up, but i forget whether the mk dsmash slice that faces toward you is first or second. if it hits toward you first, then it isn't an option...along with a few of those attacks in the previous paragraph.

MK's D-smash attacks forward first, backwards second - well that sort of sucks...

Just a note: MK's D-smash does outrange Charizard's D-smash and D-tilt in one case - that is, when Charizard is low on stamina and his head is drooping (like, half of the time during his neutral animation - I'm pretty sure out of shield his head remains up, though [but you prolly' already knew that]).

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What exactly is it that's keeping Charizard from being a 45:55 in this match-up (ignoring fatigue)? I've only heard of MK's D-tilt being a true problem for Charizard so far - everything else seems to have workarounds.

And regarding MK's D-tilt, I realize that it shield pokes, but an MK in the midst of spamming the D-tilt has some minute human lag (repeated actions have a tendency to trip up people's minds) when changing from D-tilt to another attack. So, what about a SHFF and buffer into either a grab if the MK jumps or a return to a neutral state if he retreats (or if he approaches via land - grab or D-smash...?)? Plausible? Implausible? Too prone to stuffing by MK's shuttle loop if not air-dodging on the way up?

Also - a lone D-tilt could be preempted by Charizard's F-tilt due to range (unless MK's spacing perfectly outside of Charizard's grab range and inside his F-tilt range - but why the heck would he be doing that just to D-tilt?). Even if it were powershielded, the time that it'd take an MK to then walk the left-over distance to D-tilt, or for that matter, do any of his attacks (even his tornado has some minor start-up time and distance to travel, jah?), would give you more than enough time for Charizard to pull back his tail and bring up his shield as a neutral state again. True or false (or too ridiculous to contemplate doing it perfectly for every ground approach)?

By the way - thanks for the thoughtful responses.

 

[Steeler]

it's not just dtilt. but about that, the range isn't the issue because Charizard has similar range. mk dtilt just a lot quicker, so you have to be pickier about when you use your tilt or whatever.

imo, the reason charizard isn't neutral is mainly that MK has the zoning advantage when you are both in the air and one of you is offstage. charizard's WAY big and his aerials simply don't have the hitboxes or lack of lag necessary to protect himself from an MK barrage. you then have to resort to rock smashes or air dodging, both of which can be baited and punished.

i like trying to edgeguard MK but it's just too risky and rarely will you succeed in gimping him (i should stop trying). rock smash is good in this matchup but it has a lot of commitment, MK can punish you if it's predicted or avoided somehow.

when one of you is on the ground (preferably Charizard), Zard has some pretty good options to mess around with. flamethrower pretty much negates most ground approaches. overall, good range that rivals MK's and good damage output with the KO power to boot. you also have a decent recovery (Fly SA will aid you so so much) and good launch resistance. MK dsmash will not begin to KO you till around (estimate) 120-130% with good DI.

about your specific situations

And regarding MK's D-tilt, I realize that it shield pokes, but an MK in the midst of spamming the D-tilt has some minute human lag (repeated actions have a tendency to trip up people's minds) when changing from D-tilt to another attack. So, what about a SHFF and buffer into either a grab if the MK jumps or a return to a neutral state if he retreats (or if he approaches via land - grab or D-smash...?)? Plausible? Implausible? Too prone to stuffing by MK's shuttle loop if not air-dodging on the way up?

you can just buffer the dtilt into an ftilt, eliminating the human lag. i don't know what you mean by short hopping to counter the dtilt...mk can just ftilt you as you hop or something. short hop just seems WAY WAY too slow to do even consider doing in this situation. mk can just...attack you lol. i don't think i really understand what you are saying.

the best answer to dtilt is a shieldgrab (if in grab range) since mk's attacks have very little shieldstun or shieldknockback (term?). your own dtilt can work as well, it comes out on frame 8, which i believe is quick enough to punish MK's dtilt out of your shield.

Also - a lone D-tilt could be preempted by Charizard's F-tilt due to range (unless MK's spacing perfectly outside of Charizard's grab range and inside his F-tilt range - but why the heck would he be doing that just to D-tilt?). Even if it were powershielded, the time that it'd take an MK to then walk the left-over distance to D-tilt, or for that matter, do any of his attacks (even his tornado has some minor start-up time and distance to travel, jah?), would give you more than enough time for Charizard to pull back his tail and bring up his shield as a neutral state again. True or false (or too ridiculous to contemplate doing it perfectly for every ground approach)?

MK doesn't want to get grabbed by zard (zard can grab MK out of pretty much everything since shieldstun is so low on MK attacks), and ftilt range is really quite large but the move itself is not quite so scary for mk since it is so slow. so i think MK will find itself in that zone quite often. if mk powershields your ftilt, you are probably about to get grabbed because there's definitely enough time for mk to punish you that way. or dash attacked i guess. or ftilted, maybe.

flamethrower is a way more effective move for stopping ground approaches, since mk can't even shuttle loop out of it. safe on shield. can't be spotdodged. none of mk's attacks can beat it.

 

[Adriel]

Tornado goes through Flamethrower, actually.

 

[Atash]

Tornado goes through Flamethrower, actually.

He actually said that earlier...

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A'ight, Steeler - thanks for the advice! *bounces off*

 

[MaTA]

Yeah i actually fought a MK in a tournament and beat him. I never actually fought a good one before but this guy was really good. I didnt know what to do but i did just kinda hold my ground and let him come to me. i did do the quick jabs and block grabs with squirtle. With Ivy i played a lot of defense just kinda forward B the whole time and spot dodged to bullet seed. With charizard i did lots of grabs and rock smashes and ended the match with a giant spike.

next match i was so excited i totally just rushed him and lost so by some experience just take it slow

I think if you do charizards back air near the top of his tornado you could stop it... also yeah squirtles withdraw owns that junk

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

What about Squirtles water gun?If he mach tornados wrong,It could cost him a stock.

 

[MaTA]

well the water gun doesnt push the tornado but it can after he is done and falling but its kinda hard to push him off the edge... usually they are in the middle of the stage and to low for that to happen. If its far away and you see it just withdraw it cause that'll stop it.

 

[CHOMPY]

Theres a thread that talks about what moves stop Metaknights tornado.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161939

I know theres a more modern thread that talks about what specials and moves that can priority Metaknight. But I cant find it

 

[Steeler]

Tornado goes through Flamethrower, actually.

i forgot about tornado when i made that statement

something important i didn't mention because of that...flamethrower is big tornado bait, so if you think mk is about to break out of the flame, end it a tad early so you can shield the tornado and appropriately punish afterward with a usmash or grab or something, depending on mk's positioning.