Pokedex Entry 2: Meta Knight (Squirtle analysis added)

[Charizard92]

Oh, WELL THAT IS POINTLESS!

 

[Ryusuta]

How do you figure? Stock tanking is EXTREMELY useful in a lot of situations with Pokemon Trainer, especially (but not exclusively) if the monster you switch to with a high percent is a bad match-up and the monster after that is a good match-up. You maximize your time with the good Pokemon, minimize your time with the bad one, wear out a couple of your opponents killing moves, and gives your third a chance to rest. It's just good mathematics all around.

 

[Steeler]

Wow Zard92. Wow.

Another way to put it is playing ULTRA defensively and focus on damaging while keeping yourself safe from kill attacks, which are usually hard to land. Therefore weaker attacks won't kill you since you are fat.

This is not to say you can't KO as well, but it's not really your priority, it's getting as much of a percent lead as possible.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Retro, could you give some reasons as to why Charizard is at a disadvantage to Meta Knight? I thought a big reason was because of MK's tornado, but Charizard can use both back-air and f-tilt to hit him out of it. If anything it seems like 45-55 in Meta Knight's favor which is pretty much neutral.

It's pretty close. Charizard's a 40:60 disadvantage at worst, unlike the rest of the Pokemon which seem to be more 35:65 or maybe a little worse. I 'dunknow. I'll try to play Metaknight some more, I just kind of wanted to go with worst case scenario until I was more convinced. I can see the arguement for neutral.

Charizard is still gimpable by Metaknight. Dair sometimes sends you at a weird diagonal angle away from the stage which really blows for all of the Pokemon. Bair isn't as effective a tornado repellant as you would think. It works if you have a little bit of breathing room before it happens, but sometimes he's just to close and you have to go for the "Let's both get hurt" Rock Smash option.

Dtilt outranging you on the ground hurts Charizard a little bit. It's a safe approach from Metaknight that will not be shield grabbed.

 

[Steeler]

charizard has to work much harder than metaknight to get the win, and for that reason, it isn't neutral.

 

[Charizard92]

Wow Zard92. Wow.

Another way to put it is playing ULTRA defensively and focus on damaging while keeping yourself safe from kill attacks, which are usually hard to land. Therefore weaker attacks won't kill you since you are fat.

This is not to say you can't KO as well, but it's not really your priority, it's getting as much of a percent lead as possible.

Your explanation is MUCH BETTER! So, for Charizard, this is primarily using Shield grabs right?If it is, I've been stock tanking the entire time and not knowing it. Weird huh?

 

[infernovia]

Steeler: I want the overpost to be update with the new metaknight tornado counters:

Ivysaur's dash grab, grab, fsmash. Ivysaur has a lot more options to keep metaknight out of range now.

Squirtle's withdraw (bad), watefall, dair (when used from above), fsmash.

Charizard's best tornado counter is bair. Fsmash, Dsmash, and rocksmash are also are ok counters.

Retro, could you give some reasons as to why Charizard is at a disadvantage to Meta Knight? I thought a big reason was because of MK's tornado, but Charizard can use both back-air and f-tilt to hit him out of it. If anything it seems like 45-55 in Meta Knight's favor which is pretty much neutral.

Well, I don't know about Retro, but I have been playing a lot of DK lately. And that matchup apparently is an advantage to DK because his Bair > MK aerials and Down B > MK's ground attacks.

But its not. And here is why.

Down B, although it outranges everything that MK can throw at you, MK is just too fast for him to care. The only thing is that DK's Ftilt > everything he can throw at you, even whornado. But thats about it. Thats all you can spam. And you gotta spam it harder than you ever thought possible. Another thing is that he is supposed to kill Meta at ridiculous percentage. But here is the thing, if you whiff an Fsmash, you are eating about 6 uairs followed by a shuttle loop. Thats 60% damage. You are better off not using it until high percentage.

And then there is the whorenado.

Yeah, DK has a lot of whorenado stopping ability, but meta will only spam it when there is nothing you can do about it. So it doesn't matter. Its mindwracking.

If the metaknight isn't stupid, he is not going to die early to a DK.

Its about 60:40, DK's disadvantage.


I think a lot of what is said in that matchup applies to Charizard's seeing as how they are both heavy, big and rely on ranged tilits. The only thing is that Charizard can actually stop whorenado in the air and has decent recover. But I don't think charizard has the end all solution to Meta's approach (DK's Ftilt). So I don't know, I think its a 60:40, PT's disadvantage.


Also, I want someone to see if you can use whorenado to punish flamethrower's ending lag. As in the metaknight has to be caught in it, DIing in and above for Nair and you end it early. Then meta uses whorenado. Cuz that would suck a lot if thats an actual punish.

General hints:
Save your shield for whorenado or you are eating it in the face. Remember that perfect shields lets you recover your shield completely.

You can't beat metaknight in the air. Don't let him get you off the ground. And don't get silly thoughts of gimping get into your head like, Fair is not safe.

Remember to SDI efficiently. Use both the Cstick and your analog. If MK catches you in the center, you just took 21% when you could have taken 6%. If he is shifting in a direction, SDI in the opposite way.

 

[Onxy]

Bair is so predictable it hurts. Nair is particularly difficult to use in this matchup and will more often than not fail. Its much harder to fake out with Ivy due to her poor aerial movement, so all her options become very limited. Fsmash is also easy to see coming, not that you'd want to use it much against metaknight.

She just doesn't have the versatility of many characters

The point about him being good at gimping is relevent because he is easily one of the best at it in the game. Against Ivy this isn't something we can just brush away.

Bair will be predictable as an approach, but it will work to stop approaches, if Bair is predictable, any move is, and it wont make a difference.

Fsmash is predictable if you make it predictable.

MK's aerial movement is just as bad, except he has wings.

She screams with versatility, and many people will agree with me on this; maybe some not from this board, but still a good amount.

 

[Adriel]

I have some experience with the best MK in NorCal. I could pretty much shieldgrab him out of anything with Charizard, even glide attack, dunno about d-tilt though. I didn't get gimped much as well; Charizard has rock smash, flamethrower, the super armor frames on his Up-b, and the ability to glide far above the stage to protect himself from being edgeguarded. I could also usually survive to pretty high percentages in general. I'll try to play him again sometime in the future; I too am not exactly sure on the match-up.

 

[Steeler]

you can't grab dtilt.

you can grab glide attack most of the time, but i believe if metaknight PERFECTLY PERFECTLY spaces it, you can't. and you also need to be aware of the fact that glide attacks are perfectly lagless and mk will likely follow it right up with a dsmash...so you have to time your grab right after your shield gets hit or you probably will get hit with another attack.

 

[infernovia]

Steeler, seroiusly, can you update the first post?

 

[Steeler]

Most of the information in this post is very outdated (except for what is directly below) so take it with a massive grain of salt.

Here are the weapons Pokemon Trainer has to stop the Mach Tornado.

Ivysaur's dash grab, grab, fsmash. Ivysaur has a lot more options to keep metaknight out of range now.

Squirtle's withdraw (bad), watefall, dair (when used from above), fsmash.

Charizard's best tornado counter is bair. Fsmash, Dsmash, and rocksmash are also are ok counters.

Everything is outdated below this line:

---

updated >_>

i'll work on getting huge *** analyses up for each pokedex entry...i'd really really appreciate help here though.

it was always my goal to get in depth analyses up for each discussion, but after the first few, i realized that i'd be slowing down the whole project by making these analyses so...i decided to err towards more discussions rather than detailed analyses on the few we have.

i'll get a thread on that or something in the next couple of days so i can get some help here, i'd really hate to have this on my shoulders and as such be the only voice shaping up the intricacies of these matchups. all of us see this matchups in a slightly different light. i'll say i'm a decent pokemon trainer, i have an idea of what i'm doing and what works and won't work. however, i'm not the best and i have some habits in matches that get in the way of how i play and analyze my pt against other characters.

i could perhaps work up a rough draft and let the pt community tear it apart and suggest changes. and of course the corresponding character boards can have some input too, if they care enough about pokemon trainer to do so.

i like how overswarm did it here, tell me if you like the format for our own analyses.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4941009&postcount=2

 

[Toby.]

Bair will be predictable as an approach, but it will work to stop approaches, if Bair is predictable, any move is, and it wont make a difference.

Fsmash is predictable if you make it predictable.

MK's aerial movement is just as bad, except he has wings.

She screams with versatility, and many people will agree with me on this; maybe some not from this board, but still a good amount.

bair is predicatable because we need it to stop approaches. There isn't much else we're going to do to an air borne metaknight.

MK's aerial movement doesn't matter as much because he has a sword. A fast one. It matters to ivysaur because her moves are slower and leave her open.

Fsmash is only practical in a few situations. The fact that metaknight has a sword and can simply hit you out of it makes it even less useful. Plus ivysaur really needs to save it in the off chance it will allow her to kill. With all those in mind it's pretty easy to see coming, unless you get in a surprise sucker punch at low %.

Don't get me wrong, ivysaur is my favourite character and I have faith in her. Against metaknight, though, she is simply outmatched.

 

[Ryusuta]

bair is predicatable because we need it to stop approaches. There isn't much else we're going to do to an air borne metaknight.

Predictable =/= unsafe or ineffective.

 

[Toby.]

Given the properties of bair what you say is true, against most opponents. Unfortunately metaknight has a wealth of options that allow him to get through. For one it gives him a great excuse to begin the whorenado.

I know that bair walls are good. I do them frequently. Nevertheless, they lack effectiveness against metaknights small size, high speed and long range. Bair IS useful, just not useful enough.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think bair is safe against metaknight. Understand that I want it to be a powerful tool in the matchup, I just have trouble believing that its as safe as we might assume.

 

[Onxy]

Predictable =/= unsafe or ineffective.

Some one gets the idea.

What does having a sword have anything to do with it? It does not out range your Bair; nothing of MK's does.

 

[Toby.]

Some one gets the idea.

What does having a sword have anything to do with it? It does not out range your Bair; nothing of MK's does.

I know nothing does. I know that bair is effective. I also know that he can nado through it, or just dash straight under and shield grab you. I know that if he gets through just once we are in for a world of hurt. We cannot simply assume that having a single move which outranges him is enough, especially when it does something like 4% damage.

The sword is important because up close it will beat out ivy's fmash, utilt and nair. That means that if he gets past bair he is at a massive advantage. Do you honestly believe that his ridiculously fast sword, faster ground speed and almost no ending lag are all negated by a simple bair wall? Shield -> shuttle loop says hi.

It's good for zoning, yes. Ivysaur still gets dominated. Sorry.

 

[infernovia]

tcranter, I agree with you.

But just in case, what about ftilt.

 

[Hydde]

f tilt is good to use once or twice.. but after 2 or 3 times he will just roll towards you and spam down smash all day.

The best u can do is to mix it up and use it to mindgame his approaches a little. But nothing u can spam=win.

 

[Onxy]

I know nothing does. I know that bair is effective. I also know that he can nado through it, or just dash straight under and shield grab you. I know that if he gets through just once we are in for a world of hurt. We cannot simply assume that having a single move which outranges him is enough, especially when it does something like 4% damage.

The sword is important because up close it will beat out ivy's fmash, utilt and nair. That means that if he gets past bair he is at a massive advantage. Do you honestly believe that his ridiculously fast sword, faster ground speed and almost no ending lag are all negated by a simple bair wall? Shield -> shuttle loop says hi.

It's good for zoning, yes. Ivysaur still gets dominated. Sorry.

I didn't even mention the other things Ivy can do; I only mentioned Bair, and you assumed that I said she can do nothing other. Ftilt, Dtilt, jab, Bair, Fair, Bullet Seed, grab, and Vinewhip are all useful for this fight. If you don't think so, explain so I can explain why they are.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

whorenado eats bair, if you use it, the tornado goes throught, even if MK starts the tornado too late you cant grab him out of it because you will be facing the wrong way... yes, ivys bair stop some aproaches, but not the whorenado, which is one of metamains favourites

 

[Ryusuta]

I know nothing does. I know that bair is effective. I also know that he can nado through it,

So what's stopping me from faking the back air in anticipation of this?

or just dash straight under and shield grab you.

I demand you show me a video of a Meta Knight dashing UNDER a short-hopped back air and shield grabbing Ivysaur.

I know that if he gets through just once we are in for a world of hurt.

I concede no such thing, but we're talking about his approach options right now, so let's stick to the subject.

We cannot simply assume that having a single move which outranges him is enough, especially when it does something like 4% damage.

Show me where I made this claim.

Do you honestly believe that his ridiculously fast sword, faster ground speed and almost no ending lag are all negated by a simple bair wall?

Nope. And I never said that it was. But so far you keep assuming that the Ivysaur player is completely incapable of reading the most predictable Meta Knight player, but not vice-versa.

Shield -> shuttle loop says hi.

What kind of stupid, predictable, special move-spamming Meta Knights are you being beaten by, here? You'll get no argument that Meta Knight is ungodly when played to his full potential. He IS just that ****ed good.

But if you're getting beaten by someone that uses Mach Tornado to approach and attacks on the inside by using Shuttle Loop out of the shield instead of using his abilities to push you out of the stage, SAVING Shuttle Loop so it doesn't deteriorate and has its kill power, and beats you off-stage, you need to REALLY reevaluate your game.

 

[infernovia]

f tilt is good to use once or twice.. but after 2 or 3 times he will just roll towards you and spam down smash all day.

The best u can do is to mix it up and use it to mindgame his approaches a little. But nothing u can spam=win.

I will make this simple. Bairing gives you a lot of edge, but it might be nice to have something else to hit meta with (DK has the grounded up B and down b in addition to Ftilt). So what I am saying is why don't you use Ftilit too?

Edit: I am going to play this matchup tomorrow and see what I can get from it. So w/e, disregard this I guess.

 

[Hydde]

Its usable, but not something to be relying of the entire fight. Once in a will is good but most metaknights are roll-happy so this attack must be used carefully.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

metaknight can spam specials and still win, thats why people are complaining so much about him, and dont tell me that whorenado is a common aproach, it has the range, priority and speed,i know that a good metaknight player wont depend of B moves and will us A moves very frecuent, but the specials are still there, and if MK needs it to win, he will use specials as much as it wants/needs.. and refreshing shuttle lop is not a problem for MK, if i recall correctly, the game only remembers your last 9 attacks, and MK can land 10 moves on you in like 20 seconds

 

[Toby.]

Please, can we stay happy here? I really like you guys and such hostility just makes me sad. I'm not doing this to fight you, or to prove that you suck. And Sir Orion, I was talking to Onxy. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, and I never would. I suppose I should reply to your points anyway.

So what's stopping me from faking the back air in anticipation of this?

I'm not saying that he'll do it all the time. I only mentioned nado to illustrate the point that bair isn't so infallible as it seems. There are always counter strategies, and a fake out is very good. The problem is that he doesn't want ivysaur to use bair. It's definitely the most useful thing we've got, so you faking out and doing something else is probably preferable.

I demand you show me a video of a Meta Knight dashing UNDER a short-hopped back air and shield grabbing Ivysaur.

It's never happened to me, to be honest. I considered the fact that Elliot Gale is quoted mentioning it on the actual matchup summary, and decided that he's probably fairly reliable. It was more of a side note to further enforce the fact that bairs won't leave us safe.

I concede no such thing, but we're talking about his approach options right now, so let's stick to the subject.

It was relevent to the subject because the greater context of the discussion is whether ivysaur can hold her own against metaknight. Her response to opponents inside her comfort zone and the implications this has on her getting gimped are quite relevent.

Show me where I made this claim.

Again, I wasn't talking to you. Also, the majority of posts have argued that ivysaur is fine, using only bair as justification. The fact that so many people don't see ivysaur getting massively gimped as a problem is sort of mind boggling. If you do believe that its a problem, then I'm not sure why we're having this argument. I have repeatedly said the bair is both effective and necessary against metaknight. Just not enough to offset his other advantages.

Nope. And I never said that it was. But so far you keep assuming that the Ivysaur player is completely incapable of reading the most predictable Meta Knight player, but not vice-versa.

I'm not sure why you think that. I dont think ive characterised either side as predictable. I've tried to leave my analysis as focussed on specific moves and attributes as possible. I'm trying to assume that both players are equal.

What kind of stupid, predictable, special move-spamming Meta Knights are you being beaten by, here? You'll get no argument that Meta Knight is ungodly when played to his full potential. He IS just that ****ed good.

But if you're getting beaten by someone that uses Mach Tornado to approach and attacks on the inside by using Shuttle Loop out of the shield instead of using his abilities to push you out of the stage, SAVING Shuttle Loop so it doesn't deteriorate and has its kill power, and beats you off-stage, you need to REALLY reevaluate your game.

Please stay polite. I never said I was getting beaten by a nado spammer. Please don't characterise my play and the play of other metaknights in such a simple way. My point was that they are legitimate threats. My intention in pointing out legitimate threats was to show why ivysaur cannot be even against such a character.

The simple fact that I said he can use these moves is by no means evidence of me being beaten by a person who simply spams them. I'd really appreciate it if you don't make assumptions about my skill, just as I don't assume anything about you.

EDIT: Sorry Onxy, forgot about your post. They are all useful. They just aren't enough to make it a neutral matchup. If ivysaur wasn't so gimpable then it would be a very different story. Unfortunately its a giant disadvantage

2nd EDIT: infernovie + others : ftilt is good in this matchup. Good range, multiple hits and the disjoints make it a great way of stopping his ground approaches. The low knockback is a bit of a worry at times because you need to work pretty quickly to either get out of his dtilt range or follow up as he flounders.

It's good. If he dodges or shields it can put us in a tricky position, though. But that's the same with all whiffed attacks. It's more reliable than dtilt because MK can't just SH over the top.

How do you guys think it compares to jabs?

3rd edit: Does MK have to worry as much about saving kill moves vs a character that he doesn't even need to knock into the blast zone? Methinks that he doesn't.

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur really shouldn't be approaching metaknight anyway. :\

bair can keep meta's various aerials at bay, set up for other stuff, normal things bair does. it only does 6% but it gives you a little safe zone.

i know some metaknight's like to "zone" by sh fairing a lot, creating a little wall of priority. ivysaur does not have a problem with it thanks to bair.

fair is actually really good here when fresh, it kills vertically, which is heavenly against metaknight. i'd say 120% is what you are aiming for with fair.

most really good mk's won't tornado you straight up since ivy can effectively grab him out of it, but in case mk does, you have that option. make sure to short hop fast fall your bairs so you'll be in the best position to grab him out of tornado as possible, since that eats through bair.

but likely you'll be tornadoed when you are already in the air or reeling from an attack, so you cannot grab (or fsmash i guess).

razor leaf isn't that great because mk is so small and tornado eats through it, but you can use that to your advantage and just grab him out of it. mk's other attacks, like fair, likely negate razor leaf as well though. so either way you aren't going to be using it to "camp", probably just to pepper on damage from time to time if you land a hit.

edit: tcranter mk still wants to save kill moves for the other two pokes.

 

[Onxy]

TC, my point was to show that it's not a horrid 80-20 match up; I know it's not a neutral, it's still a disadvantage, but it's not horrid like fighting Marth.

 

[Toby.]

I agree will everything steeler just said.

Onxy I guess I assumed that you were arguing along the lines of the person who started this whole thing (slit_my_memories or something?), who originally said that ivysuar was a metaknight counter.

Since that's what you're saying then we are actually on the same side. Lol.

What a drawn out misunderstanding.

edit: on saving kill moves: can't believe i forgot about the others! whooooooops

 

[Ryusuta]

You're right, tcranter; I unintentionally sounded a bit belligerent there, and I apologize for that. You certainly do raise some very good points overall, and I didn't mean to raise any ad hominem arguments. Sorry about that.

 

[Toby.]

Everything works out in the end.

On a side note: There's a (very) slight possiblity that I'll be going to a tournament this weekend. I'd planned on attending but it seems like I've been roped into a 90th birthday. Anyway. If I end up going I'll try and organise for my matches to be recorded for the benefit of all.

At the very least you guys can pick some holes in my playstyle.

There may even be some MK vids to enjoy

 

[Retro Gaming]

If you can go, take an SD card at the very least for replays. I can always record them myself if they're worth putting up.

 

[Natch]

If you can go, take an SD card at the very least for replays. I can always record them myself if they're worth putting up.

I'll prolly be going to a tourney in two weeks. I'll see if I can get some video of it.

It'll actually be my very first tourney, so I'm really fuggin excited.

 

[Toby.]

Thanks Retro, if I manage to go I'll definitely take you up on that. I've been wanting to get vids up for quite a while.

 

[Steeler]

there will also be a tournament this saturday for me, the guy with recording equipment (who happens to be the best mk player here) only records winners/losers/overall finals, and i don't think it's likely that i'll make it to that point. however i could request some friendlies to record and post.

also ivysaur and squirtle are both 65-35, i'd say. zard 60-40. metaknight doesn't enjoy being at mid range against an ivysaur that knows how to space.

also razor leaf interrupts and hits metaknight at the beginning of mach tornado, and if mk starts the tornado from a reasonable distance and stays on the ground, since that means they aren't mashing B to improve priority.

also fsmash is quite nice when it lands, i'm not sure of whether it'll go through fairs and the like. something to look into.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

so..... 65-35 for ivy and squartle ad 60:40 for zard........ sounds reasonable.. btw, i dont even know if 45-55 is considered neutral

 

[Steeler]

it is considered neutral.

that's just my view on it, my ivysaur isn't even near good enough to space all that well against a metaknight, so perhaps i'm stretching it. 30:70 is plausible. no way it is 20:80 though lol.

 

[Onxy]

I'm thinking a 35:65.

 

[Hydde]

im with onxy in that %

meta *****.

 

[Toby.]

I'm thinking a 35:65.

Agreed.

10Agreez