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Pokedex Entry 2: Meta Knight (Squirtle analysis added)
- Thread starter Steeler
- Start date
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
If you thought mine was discouraging, go play with someone who actually uses the character. <_>
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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- May 13, 2008
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I think this thread just died, is it Squirtle weak, Ivysaur neutral, and Charizard strong? because that's the Idea I got.
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
The Meta Knight I play with on a regular basis just won himself a tourney in Birmingham. I guess this means you can count on my take to be pretty accurate. lol
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173910&page=6
He is Will.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173910&page=6
He is Will.
ivysaur is 4/6
charizard 6/4
squirtle 5/5, ftilt truly is godly. you can't let mk control the tempo though, or you'll be overwhelmed. just play it nice and safe. don't be too aggressive in this matchup and be sure to use the quickest attacks you have at your disposal.
next discussion character? just post here and then i'll make the new one.
charizard 6/4
squirtle 5/5, ftilt truly is godly. you can't let mk control the tempo though, or you'll be overwhelmed. just play it nice and safe. don't be too aggressive in this matchup and be sure to use the quickest attacks you have at your disposal.
next discussion character? just post here and then i'll make the new one.
Onxy
Smash Lord
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I do agree with Squirtle being 50/50, because I notice that Squirtle's attacks come out first usually (sometimes in air, and usually on ground).
Are we all sure about Charizard's advantage over Meta Knight? I mean I'm all for it, but.... I'm a bit unsure of it.
Are we all sure about Charizard's advantage over Meta Knight? I mean I'm all for it, but.... I'm a bit unsure of it.
My personal feelings...
All three Pokemon have a disadvantage; some more than others.
Squirtle's is slight-to-moderate. Realistically, he's just got a sword and he has better properties on his movement and attacks in general. Either way, you can fight and kill just the same. Just...watch out; Squirtle's light as heck, so those powerful Up-B's and D-Smashes will do you in fairly quickly.
Ivysaur is moderate-to-severe...bad matchup, for sure. You're stuck shield-poking with B-Air -> F-Tilt and looking for grabs. Ivysaur is edgeguarded very easily, and because Ivysaur's aerial movement is completely terrible, you can get juggled just as easily as you can get edgeguarded. You're also not that heavy, but at least it's better than Squirtle there. Spacing is your friend here. Also, constantly look for possible low percentage kills. U-Air keeps you safe if you're lower while also getting quick kills; U-Smash is almost unpractical but if you can bait into it, it works; Up-B's viable as well, but don't spam it, or it'll never hit for you.
Charizard is probably the closest to neutral. Flamethrower stops almost all approach because of MK's bad horizontal movement in the air, and you have great range. Still, your aerial movement is not excellent, and it's enough for MK to take advantage of by juggling...not too bad, though; you have defensive options, much more power, a great grab, and a lot of weight. MK is, well, MK; that's the hard part, but Charizard has better things to fight him with than a lot of characters.
All three Pokemon have a disadvantage; some more than others.
Squirtle's is slight-to-moderate. Realistically, he's just got a sword and he has better properties on his movement and attacks in general. Either way, you can fight and kill just the same. Just...watch out; Squirtle's light as heck, so those powerful Up-B's and D-Smashes will do you in fairly quickly.
Ivysaur is moderate-to-severe...bad matchup, for sure. You're stuck shield-poking with B-Air -> F-Tilt and looking for grabs. Ivysaur is edgeguarded very easily, and because Ivysaur's aerial movement is completely terrible, you can get juggled just as easily as you can get edgeguarded. You're also not that heavy, but at least it's better than Squirtle there. Spacing is your friend here. Also, constantly look for possible low percentage kills. U-Air keeps you safe if you're lower while also getting quick kills; U-Smash is almost unpractical but if you can bait into it, it works; Up-B's viable as well, but don't spam it, or it'll never hit for you.
Charizard is probably the closest to neutral. Flamethrower stops almost all approach because of MK's bad horizontal movement in the air, and you have great range. Still, your aerial movement is not excellent, and it's enough for MK to take advantage of by juggling...not too bad, though; you have defensive options, much more power, a great grab, and a lot of weight. MK is, well, MK; that's the hard part, but Charizard has better things to fight him with than a lot of characters.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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Um, ignoring the last post, Squirtle is neutral, Ivysaur is disadvantage, and Charizard is advantage.
I recommend Marth, due to the fact that he's top tier and broken.
I recommend Marth, due to the fact that he's top tier and broken.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Ok i think marth is good to be the next one, and om ok with the neutral,disavantage and advantage when figthing metaknight
Elliot Gale
Smash Ace
lol. Marth is a FAR easier match-up than Meta Knight is, and it's not a whole lot different. Squirtle 3/7, Ivy 5/5, Zard 6/4, or something along those lines.
I cast my vote for Game&Watch.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
PltnmNgl
Smash Journeyman
We need to link these threads to the main matchup chart as we go. Just a thought.
PltnmNgl
Smash Journeyman
Okay. Just checking.
Blackbelt
Smash Lord
I say Game and Watch or the team of Zelda/Sheik.
I'll leave the other two alone, but on Charizard>MK. Umm, what?
Charizard is heavy with good range, and while those characters are ususally troublesome for MK, if the character's attacks don't come out quick enough, you're in trouble. Because MK can hit you with a barrage of attacks. But Charizard's attacks don't come out quick enough. He can edgeguard you to death.
And MK's approach with Shuttle Loop can't really be stopped by Charizard. Honestly, I think MK>Charizard, but I'd settle for equal.
I'm still open for any matches against anyone's PT. Just drop a PM.
Charizard is heavy with good range, and while those characters are ususally troublesome for MK, if the character's attacks don't come out quick enough, you're in trouble. Because MK can hit you with a barrage of attacks. But Charizard's attacks don't come out quick enough. He can edgeguard you to death.
And MK's approach with Shuttle Loop can't really be stopped by Charizard. Honestly, I think MK>Charizard, but I'd settle for equal.
I'm still open for any matches against anyone's PT. Just drop a PM.
DK=Quick attacks, great range.
Charizard=Somewhat quick attacks, good range
__
Charizard isn't DK. I'm not saying Charizard is worse, (I like him better) but for this matchup, they don't have similar strengths.
SlitMyMemories
Smash Rookie
i honestly think ivy is a mk counter,i find it easier to rack up damage wit bulletS and sidetilts.also forward Smash kills decently.i use to main mk,and barely ever lost,but idk if having mk knowledge helps my game more =/.lol just dont get edgehogged.
Toby.
Smash Master
Better of putting your justification here than in the other thread.
Fsmash is handy, but it is a predictable method which is easily shielded. The fact that you are attacking with ivy's body vs meta's disjointed hitboxes makes it even harder.
Fsmash is handy, but it is a predictable method which is easily shielded. The fact that you are attacking with ivy's body vs meta's disjointed hitboxes makes it even harder.
infernovia
Smash Ace
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- Feb 13, 2008
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I want the overpost to be update with the new metaknight tornado counters:
Ivysaur's dash grab, grab, fsmash. Ivysaur has a lot more options to keep metaknight out of range now.
Squirtle's withdraw (bad), watefall, dair (when used from above), fsmash.
Charizard's best tornado counter is bair. Fsmash, Dsmash, and rocksmash are also are ok counters.
Ivysaur's dash grab, grab, fsmash. Ivysaur has a lot more options to keep metaknight out of range now.
Squirtle's withdraw (bad), watefall, dair (when used from above), fsmash.
Charizard's best tornado counter is bair. Fsmash, Dsmash, and rocksmash are also are ok counters.
SlitMyMemories
Smash Rookie
****
dude why u all up in my opinion...its my opinion,p.t to me is a mk counter,and i think ivy plays a big part,but still hav to switch char and squirt.ivy cant do it alone.go make urself feel special with someone else.=/
infernovia
Smash Ace
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You obviously are not getting edge guarded.
Ivy gets edgeguarded ridiculously easily which is enough to give MK the advantage. If you're not getting edgeguarded the MK you're playing against probably isn't that good. Ivy can perform ok otherwise but can't really shut down MK or anything.
I've actually had the most success with Squirtle. If you can get MK on the defensive he'll have a hard time dealing with it. Ftilts and jabs come out quicker than anything he can throw at you and mixing it in with grabs can make it hard for MK to function. Smart use of your aerials will help even further. Squirtle isn't an MK counter but from my personal experience he's been even. Of course this may just be because MKs are not used to playing against Squirtle.
Charizard is OK. He can keep MK at bay with flamethrower and to an extent rocksmash and KO him early. But if Charizard gets hit he can be juggled easily and take a big chunk of damage before landing so its about even. Probably a slight advantage to MK.
I've actually had the most success with Squirtle. If you can get MK on the defensive he'll have a hard time dealing with it. Ftilts and jabs come out quicker than anything he can throw at you and mixing it in with grabs can make it hard for MK to function. Smart use of your aerials will help even further. Squirtle isn't an MK counter but from my personal experience he's been even. Of course this may just be because MKs are not used to playing against Squirtle.
Charizard is OK. He can keep MK at bay with flamethrower and to an extent rocksmash and KO him early. But if Charizard gets hit he can be juggled easily and take a big chunk of damage before landing so its about even. Probably a slight advantage to MK.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Squirtle's Dair beats Metaknight's glide attack.
Ivysaur definately does the worst in this match-up. Going off stage scares Ivysaur. On the other hand, Ivysaur isn't afraid of glide attack because Bair beats it in range. Bullet Seed doesn't last very long and its difficult to get a clean hit.
Ivysaur definately does the worst in this match-up. Going off stage scares Ivysaur. On the other hand, Ivysaur isn't afraid of glide attack because Bair beats it in range. Bullet Seed doesn't last very long and its difficult to get a clean hit.
Toby.
Smash Master
You created two threads. In one of those you asked specifically for other peoples comments and opinions. The other thread, this thread, is designed for debate so that we can get as definitive an answer as possible.
With that in mind, theres no way I would just agree with you. Whats the point in having a matchup thread if we dont even test to see if our theories hold weight?
I can't believe you are annoyed just because I didn't agree with your assumptions, which are clearly in the minority anyway.
Onxy
Smash Lord
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Ivy isn't horrible against MK, but it's still a disadvantage. People who complain about getting gimped everytime needs to stay the hell away from the edges, and learn to space. It's bad matchup, but you shouldn't be getting gimped so quickly.
Edit: Seriously, every video on youtube is always the same. Everytime I see a Ivy fighting a MK, it goes like this: Fair, Fair, Nair, Shuttle Loop, dead Ivy. I mean c'mon, there is no need for that, and they actually blame the character being bad. Those are probably the same people who say Ivy has no air game; when in fact that it's better than Squirtle's, and if you don't use it, you better start now.
Edit: Seriously, every video on youtube is always the same. Everytime I see a Ivy fighting a MK, it goes like this: Fair, Fair, Nair, Shuttle Loop, dead Ivy. I mean c'mon, there is no need for that, and they actually blame the character being bad. Those are probably the same people who say Ivy has no air game; when in fact that it's better than Squirtle's, and if you don't use it, you better start now.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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Wait, Ivysaur has a better air game than Squirtle's? Really, the only Ivy aerial that I use is Uair for obvious reasons (and bair).
Toby.
Smash Master
I wouldn't say that its better than squirtles. They serve different functions, so its hard to say. Plus, squirtles superior aerial control and versatility gives him an edge. With Ivy they can see what you are planning a mile away. I agree that ivy has great aerials though. I <3 Bair walls, nair->bullet seed and autocancelled fair->ftilt.
Hydde
Smash Lord
its easy for him to calculate a telegraphed ivyattack and dodge-down smash to send ivy to the edge. Ivycan fight him well if he keeps the distance...but still...is too easy for meta toput you in the positron he wants
yes
walk off stages would probably be a good counterpick for all three pokemon, but not enough to turn anything around
Toby.
Smash Master
Bair is so predictable it hurts. Nair is particularly difficult to use in this matchup and will more often than not fail. Its much harder to fake out with Ivy due to her poor aerial movement, so all her options become very limited. Fsmash is also easy to see coming, not that you'd want to use it much against metaknight.
She just doesn't have the versatility of many characters
The point about him being good at gimping is relevent because he is easily one of the best at it in the game. Against Ivy this isn't something we can just brush away.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I've been playing against Metaknight recently. IMO, Charizard, Squirtle, then Ivysaur. You should start with Squirtle, sacrifice Ivysaur, and let Charizard have a full stock. It lets Squirtle come in fresh, too, so he doesn't die so quickly.
Squirtle's Dair beats grounded Shuttle Loop after the invincibility frames, the glide attack, and Drill Rush. The last ones not as important, but I'm noting it just in case.
Walling Metaknight with Ivysaur just doesn't have the same effectiveness as with other characters. This is a bad fight for Ivysaur, and I haven't found much I can do.
Charizard is the closest to even footing of the entire group. You can grab just about everything except Dtilt without perfect shielding. Bair is the main kill move I seem to be using, and I use Uthrow a lot more here.
It's imperative that you DON'T try to play Metaknight off-stage. Just don't do it. Play on the ledge if you must, but never willingly jump out with him. Some good can come of it (You'll land Charizard's Dair if the Metaknight messes up pretty hard), but its so difficult to even do that its really not worth it.
Anyway, they're all a disadvantage.
Squirtle's Dair beats grounded Shuttle Loop after the invincibility frames, the glide attack, and Drill Rush. The last ones not as important, but I'm noting it just in case.
Walling Metaknight with Ivysaur just doesn't have the same effectiveness as with other characters. This is a bad fight for Ivysaur, and I haven't found much I can do.
Charizard is the closest to even footing of the entire group. You can grab just about everything except Dtilt without perfect shielding. Bair is the main kill move I seem to be using, and I use Uthrow a lot more here.
It's imperative that you DON'T try to play Metaknight off-stage. Just don't do it. Play on the ledge if you must, but never willingly jump out with him. Some good can come of it (You'll land Charizard's Dair if the Metaknight messes up pretty hard), but its so difficult to even do that its really not worth it.
Anyway, they're all a disadvantage.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
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Thank you for the explanation. Say, what's stock tanking again? I forgot what the **** it means, and it is kinda assumed that you know what it means, so please tell me.
Adriel
Smash Journeyman
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- Feb 29, 2008
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Retro, could you give some reasons as to why Charizard is at a disadvantage to Meta Knight? I thought a big reason was because of MK's tornado, but Charizard can use both back-air and f-tilt to hit him out of it. If anything it seems like 45-55 in Meta Knight's favor which is pretty much neutral.
Natch
Smash Ace
Stock tanking is sending out a fat, heavy character to just deal as much damage as possible, and not neccessarily KO. For example, Ivy lands a kill, you're at 80%. Switch to Zard, and focus on just racking enough damage as possible so that Squirtle can KO more easily.