PM Wolf Social thread

[Sur Fartsalot]

Ok thanks! About the smashes, should I be aiming for Dsmashes? They seem to hve the greates kill power, but lack range compared to Fsmash

 

[Taytertot]

Ok thanks! About the smashes, should I be aiming for Dsmashes? They seem to hve the greates kill power, but lack range compared to Fsmash

i guess that depends on the situation. dsmash is really good in some areas, like against character who have a very difficult sweetspotting the ledge because dsmash has a low hitbox that extends horizontally a fair distance. i wouldnt go using it all the time but i think jab 1 to dsmash combos at certain percents vs. certain characters which would be a great kill option since jab 1 is pretty quick so you can just confirm if jab 1 hits and then throw out dsmash to seal it. but any move that takes up as many frames as dsmash is going to be unsafe as a reliable kill move, hence the reason that marth players in PM and melee dont use dsmash almost ever. If you miss with dsmash then youre screwed.

 

[Chef2]

Uses for dsmash (that I know of haha)
-strongest reliable side kill option off of a jab reset (unless your feeling ham and want to jab reset->shorten side B)
-kill move you can use on reaction to punish various things. Whiffed attacks, tech reads, down air->missed tech->dsmash, etc
-crouch cancel dsmash. Really powerful way to quickly tie up the stocks. E.g. Opponent takes first stock but is at kill percent. So you revive and run at him and crouch, get smacked but then dsmash and now even stocks
-can be comboed into. Like Taytertot mentioned jab->dsmash is great. On fast fallers a simple shine can lead into dsmash at low-mid percents and be a quick gimp. Also on fast fallers is the bthrow->dsmash cheese (only di away saves them). Dthrow kinda has cheese potential too. Floaty-medium fallers you can shine and if the height is right you can hop on a platform and dmash. Floaties you'd probably wanna UpSmash off the top though
-punishing missed sweetspot recoveries or quickly slicing someone's hands if they hang on the edge too long

I'm sure there's more but like Taytertot said the move is very punishable. It's okay to try the occasional raw run up->CC->dsmash (the odd risky mix up is ok but not optimal) but an opponent with good wolf knowledge will be very weary of dsmash when he's at kill percent

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Hi, so I've been working on my wolf, but I still feel like something is missing. I normally play against CPU's (big bummer), but I can frequently chain together combos, and am working on linking wolf flash into it. However, I still feel like something is missing. I can do most advanced techniques that are applicable to wolf as far as I know. I can hopefully get you guys a video to look at soon. So I waveland laser, shorten the first two shortens of sideb, l cancel consistently, follow up on many attacks, and have pretty good pressure. Is there anything else I should work on?

Also, what are the uses of a wavedash out of reflector, and does spacing really matter that much as a wolf player (other than setting up for sideB)?

 

[Taytertot]

Hi, so I've been working on my wolf, but I still feel like something is missing. I normally play against CPU's (big bummer), but I can frequently chain together combos, and am working on linking wolf flash into it. However, I still feel like something is missing. I can do most advanced techniques that are applicable to wolf as far as I know. I can hopefully get you guys a video to look at soon. So I waveland laser, shorten the first two shortens of sideb, l cancel consistently, follow up on many attacks, and have pretty good pressure. Is there anything else I should work on?

Also, what are the uses of a wavedash out of reflector, and does spacing really matter that much as a wolf player (other than setting up for sideB)?

wavedash out of shine works well for shining again if they CC and you wavedash behind them. Also very useful if you hit with shine and it sends them far away (i.e. at high percents) and you dont have an immediate combo after jump canceling for whatever reason (maybe because of weird DI) then you can wavedash out and chase them down. Also, waveshining can combo on characters who fall really fast like fox at low percents. You just shine then wavedash towards them and shine again and again and again til theyre at a high enough percent that you need to throw out an aerial to continue that combo.

Spacing matters regardless of which character you play or which character you play against. The better the player is that youre up against, the more they will take advantage of mistakes in your micro/macro-spacing. Ideally you always want to be on point with your spacing because it will make it that much harder for your opponent to find openings and stop your pressure. I could probably talk for hours about different situations that are important to have good spacing in but the overall message would be the same; make sure you have good spacing. Watch some tourney matches of some of the best players out there and pay close attention to situations where someone barely hits or barely misses their opponent. One of the major reasons those situations of barely missing or hitting occur in the first place is because of micro-spacing. the smallest increments of spacing can make a huge difference.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Is foxtrotting necessary as wolf? Sorry if I'm spamming you with questions:/

 

[Taytertot]

Is foxtrotting necessary as wolf? Sorry if I'm spamming you with questions:/

Questions are good. im not sure that foxtrotting is necessary as wolf, but if it gets you from one side of the stage to the other faster then normal then im sure its useful. It certainly helps with dash dancing because it allows you to dash foward twice without losing the potential to dash back after the second dash where you'd otherwise just be running and then have the slow turn around animation. It may be obnoxious to learn at first but it doesnt take too long, you just have to get used to the timing of it being slightly different from dash dancing a full length back and forth.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

So recently, why looking at my videos, I realize my pressure isn't that great, as well as my techchases. I don't have many opportunities to play against friends nor live opponents, and have never been in any tournaments. So anyway, it seems like I can never link a really long extended combo together. I got some videos my friend got of me playing on his big screen TV, and if possible, can you guys give me advice? Thanks!!
I am currently working on linking side-b combos and waveshining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ZUec31OAg&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2avueLGzs8

 

[eatthischair]

So recently, why looking at my videos, I realize my pressure isn't that great, as well as my techchases. I don't have many opportunities to play against friends nor live opponents, and have never been in any tournaments. So anyway, it seems like I can never link a really long extended combo together. I got some videos my friend got of me playing on his big screen TV, and if possible, can you guys give me advice? Thanks!!
I am currently working on linking side-b combos and waveshining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ZUec31OAg&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2avueLGzs8

First thing, do whatever you can to play live opponents. Netplay is great if you don't have anyone in your area, but if you have a scene go to a tournament no matter how long you've been playing. Playing against Cpus hinders your playing more than you think.

There were a couple of things that stood out to me, first being on your movement. Rolls are generally pretty bad because they are predictable and slow, unlike sm4sh rolls. Try to use more DDing and wavedashing to mix up your movement.

For the techchases, I would say just be less agressive. Wolf is generally fast enough to react to what the opponent is going to do, so theres no need to try and hit them with a smash when they can get up attack you.

As far as neutral goes, make sure you have the wavelanded blasters on point, and know when to waveland towards or away from the opponent. In neutral I'd recommend just DDing, using your blaster, and spacing aerials and tilts. Smashes in neutral are almost always a terrible option.

Your techskill could use some work, but that should straighten itself out with more time in the lab.

Side-B combos are really the last thing a Wolf player should learn since they're extremely high risk-high reward. Once you get your fundamentals down, as well as all of the useful tech you can work on comboing into side b.

 

[Chef2]

I'm no top tier player so take this all with a grain of salt. I think something very basic you might be forgetting is running around. Wolf is one of the fastest characters in the game, you can create a lot of opportunities simply by running around. Try running away from your opponent, which makes some space, then shoot a laser. If it looks like you can go in, waveland towards the guy and choose the best option (grab, dash attack, fsmash, etc). After the laser if it looks like you won't get a follow up, just waveland away. Oh and while rolling gets you outta tough spots doing it a lot can make you predictable and punishable. Wavedash out of shield is the fastest way to drop shield.

Cool you posted vids vs a fast faller and a floaty. Like you mentioned, wave shining fast fallers is great, so work on that tech. A really good option is to waveshine a few times, then let the opponent land. 9/10 times they'll miss the tech or be tech locked (input a tech when they thought they would land but didn't so now they can't tech for awhile). You can then jab reset if they miss the tech and punish even harder. UpSmash combos into itself and then eventually up air /some kind of launcher to finish the job. Practice this on fd you'll see what I mean (although set the computer to control cause computers don't tech like humans they'll tech your shine everytime).

Against floaties (like your Mario game) shine->up air is always a safe, virtually
guaranteed combo. You can usually double jump and get a second up air in too. You can try for a harder combo like shine->dair but that's more of a read than a combo.

Wolfs grab game is good too, shine->grab is probably the best shield pressure option. You got your nair->shine down I would work on nair->shine->grab.

Looking good though man keep working at it

 

[Taytertot]

So recently, why looking at my videos, I realize my pressure isn't that great, as well as my techchases. I don't have many opportunities to play against friends nor live opponents, and have never been in any tournaments. So anyway, it seems like I can never link a really long extended combo together. I got some videos my friend got of me playing on his big screen TV, and if possible, can you guys give me advice? Thanks!!
I am currently working on linking side-b combos and waveshining

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ZUec31OAg&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2avueLGzs8

well i watched your videos and the first thing i was going to mention was also your lack of movement use but it seems that that has already been pointed out. but i would like to say that while playing against CPUs doesnt really require a lot of mix ups cause mindgames dont really work in that manner vs CPUs (which teaches bad habits), on the other hand players will catch on to patterns which requires that you mix things up and one very important way to mix things up and not be predictable is to DD and use a combo of wavedashing and wavelanding in different directions so that it isnt obvious when youre planning to go in and when youre planning to sit out of range, which i didnt see you do in those matches (granted they were vs CPUs, but you should probably be practicing as if CPUs were people even if some things dont work on the computers just to get youself in the right mindset).

i didnt see much uair or bair in your matches though uair was a bit more used against mario, but i think you could get more mileage out of both especially bair. you were relying on diar reads a lot which can be good, but dont use it so much that it gets predictable and keeps you from getting percent.

The other thing i noticed is that you never wavedashed from the ledge, which is difficult to do but if you practice it you'll be glad you did because if you do it fast enough you can use some of that ledge invincibility for an attack afterward.

Also just to keep in mind, there are times were dtilt of ftilt can replace fsmash in your usage of it i feel. and take this with a grain of salt because it is more of an opinion but sometimes fsmash can be too much of a positional commitment and ftilt and dtilt have fairly good range, especially dtilt, which has the most horizontal range other then fsmash (though because fsmash moves you it may not always be ideal). Similarly there are situations where ftilt can be useful, though not quite as much, because it comes out more quickly then usmash and that may allow you to get a hit if they are already coming down at you and are too close for usmash.

the last thing i wanted to point out is to get a feel for wolf's threat zones. and by that i dont mean just knowing where each move hits because it looks like you already know that. I mean get an idea of what moves can stuff out different approaches and relate that in your mind to how much of a commitment those moves are so that you can weigh your decisions on whether to throw out that attack or whether its better to DD and position yourself instead. With that, try to get an idea of the threat zones of your opponents character and what things that character does well so that you have a good idea of their general gameplan so that you can make decisions based on a counter gameplan because it seemed to me that you were kinda playing on autopilot instead of considering what the other character can do and how to respond to it (though i realize that that can be difficult vs a CPU who doesnt have much of a mind about how it plays).

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

OK, thank you all for your help!! A couple questions though. Before I posted on here, and asked whether I should rely on pressure and lasers instead of dashdancing and wavedashing. The person in question said I should rely on safe pressure. All of you on here basically say I should be dash dancing, wavedashing, and just running around in general instead. Why shouldn't I just rely on my lasers and follow up instead of just dash dancing etc.?

 

[Spiffykins]

i played some matches against lucky's wolf yesterday and it was way sicker than i was expecting. He's not great at landing side b yet but other than, A+.

 

[eatthischair]

OK, thank you all for your help!! A couple questions though. Before I posted on here, and asked whether I should rely on pressure and lasers instead of dashdancing and wavedashing. The person in question said I should rely on safe pressure. All of you on here basically say I should be dash dancing, wavedashing, and just running around in general instead. Why shouldn't I just rely on my lasers and follow up instead of just dash dancing etc.?

As far I'm concerned, lasers are only useful at medium to far distances because the start up and endlag on them, and used mainly to create openings on the opponent. Dash dancing and wavedashing are useless from far away, but very good when you are just out of range.The latter are very great for because it makes you unpredictable (when done right) and pressures your opponent to make choose an option while still retaining all of yours.
They both have their specific uses, just know when to use which.

 

[eatthischair]

i played some matches against lucky's wolf yesterday and it was way sicker than i was expecting. He's not great at landing side b yet but other than, A+.

Is there any footage of it on youtube? I can't seem to find any

 

[The Baron]

i played some matches against lucky's wolf yesterday and it was way sicker than i was expecting. He's not great at landing side b yet but other than, A+.

lucky has a wolf?

 

[Taytertot]

OK, thank you all for your help!! A couple questions though. Before I posted on here, and asked whether I should rely on pressure and lasers instead of dashdancing and wavedashing. The person in question said I should rely on safe pressure. All of you on here basically say I should be dash dancing, wavedashing, and just running around in general instead. Why shouldn't I just rely on my lasers and follow up instead of just dash dancing etc.?

its not that you should be running around instead of using lasers but each is good and i noticed in your videos that you were standing still without throwing out lasers which in most cases isnt going to help you as wolf. lasers are a great way to force an opponent to approach you because otherwise they take shield damage or percent. on top of that lasers allow you to make your opponent approach from specific angles, but its not perfect pressure because there are plenty of ways around wolf's lasers.

Dash Dancing keeps you mobile. this is good for screwing up your opponents spacing. its also good for making your approaches unpredictable. otherwise people will always read your approach. similarly with wavedashing though wavedashing is also used to micro managing your spacing and make your movement more efficient.

pressuring your opponent is something you do with shifts in your spacing as well as hitting them with attacks or forcing them into bad positioning. But some of the pressure that wolf can dish out requires that you approach first, which is why you need to wavedash and dash dance. On top of that wavedashing and dash dancing will help with pressuring your opponent by pushing your threat zone near them and therefore making them move to a possibly bad position. pressuring with a threat zone doesnt necessarily mean throwing out an attack.

with that said figure out what the character your facing can do and learn what balance of lasers and dash dancing/wave dashing are most effective. certain characters can out camp you and are more then willing to allow you to keep using laser and punishing you for it with better projectiles. others can use great movement to avoid the lasers pretty easily. some characters it will be very effective to use lasers on and others you'll want to use it more rarely. so its kinda up to you to find that balance that works for you.

 

[Spiffykins]

Is there any footage of it on youtube? I can't seem to find any

Probably not, unfortunately.

lucky has a wolf?

Yeah, it's pretty much just as good as his Fox or Falcon. Not too surprising if you think about how similar Wolf is.

 

[eatthischair]

Does anyone have the video of bar wars 2 grand finals with chillin? I cant seem to find it on youtube

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Does anyone have the video of bar wars 2 grand finals with chillin? I cant seem to find it on youtube

I can't seem to find grand finals, but they have this game:

 

[TheCandyman]

Hey I'm new to the Wolf boards and I recently picked up wolf and I have been having a **** ton of fun with his combos and I was wondering what are some basics I need to know to play wolf besides the obvious( waveshine, nair-shine on shield etc) like Flash set ups (I know back throw at high percents with certain DI and up air and Fair with certain DI will work and D-tilt seems like it should.) and other Wolf specific tech and how to play in the neutral.

This might be just my Lucas, Falco and Marth talking but from what I've played it seems laser and D-tilt are good neutral option D-tilt for poking and laser approaches and combo continue-ers

Also how do you do the waveland out of blaster? Like the specific timing, is it like a late blaster then you can aur dodge out of it? or just blaster right when you leave the ground and waveland like you would a tomahawk.

 

[Taytertot]

i believe you blaster right after leaving the ground.
im unsure how actuate these still are (also they were tested on CPUs) but this is the sideB combo list
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-energems-combo-list.364625/

 

[proto235]

Also how do you do the waveland out of blaster? Like the specific timing, is it like a late blaster then you can aur dodge out of it? or just blaster right when you leave the ground and waveland like you would a tomahawk.

The optimal timing is something along the lines of lasering as soon as you leave the ground and fastfalling such that the laser come out just before you hit the ground, allowing you to waveland out. You'll know you have gotten the earliest airdodge timing if the laser comes out silently. Keep in mind, though, that getting a good waveland is what's really important, though, which allows you to act out of the laser faster, especially for wavelands back/forwards.

However, when you're just starting out with waveland lasers it's probably a good idea just to not worry about the fastfalls and just delay your lasers so they actually hit your opponent (the precise timing depends on the hight of the character, obviously), as the timings are pretty strict when you fastfall it. This way of using lasers is substantially slower, though, so once you get used to it, try practicing some fastfalled lasers.


On another note, have any of you guys gotten good use out of footstool? I've been messing around with the idea using footstool as an alternative to dair for comboing when meteor cancelling is a possibility, but in practice I'm having a difficult time landing it, so I'm not entirely sure if it's practical, especially when factoring variable DI. Because of this, I'm having a hard time exploring the follow up options out of it. Thoughts?

 

[Taytertot]

On another note, have any of you guys gotten good use out of footstool? I've been messing around with the idea using footstool as an alternative to dair for comboing when meteor cancelling is a possibility, but in practice I'm having a difficult time landing it, so I'm not entirely sure if it's practical, especially when factoring variable DI. Because of this, I'm having a hard time exploring the follow up options out of it. Thoughts?

Well i only know about footstool followups from a roy perspective because sethlon started using them a lot. Id imagine that characters with floatier fall speeds would allow you to get dair or maybe even uair depending on how high up you footstool them. you could definitely get a nair out as i think you cant tech during the footstool animation; after nair you might be able to get jab into dsmash but im unsure about that as im not an incredibly comfortable wolf player. you could also shine them and get potential followups. bair might work as well which might even be a good kill combo.

 

[proto235]

Well i only know about footstool followups from a roy perspective because sethlon started using them a lot. Id imagine that characters with floatier fall speeds would allow you to get dair or maybe even uair depending on how high up you footstool them. you could definitely get a nair out as i think you cant tech during the footstool animation;

You're definitely right about footstooling being a lot better against floaties, but for wolf I think the main issue isn't whether or not the followup will work(From what I've seen, both nair and dair are essentially guaranteed for both floaties and mediums, not sure about ffers tho, haven't tested them yet. If this is inaccurate, please let me know though), but rather how easy the footstool is to land. Body size also plays a big part here, obviously.

As for practicality, I do think that footstooling could play an important part in wolf's combo game against floaties and perhaps medium fallers in situations where dair will be meteor cancelled and other aerials won't lead to any substantial percent. I think these situations are fairly common at anywhere from 15-70ish percent vs floaties, especially on stages where platforms are sparse, and even if your opponent can't meteor cancel there are plenty of situations I think when dair doesn't induce tumble and hitstun doesnt't last long enough to get the added lag on landing, which is always nice.

As an added bonus, footstool to dair is really ****ing stylish imo and satisfying as hell, so even if it turns out to not be a guaranteed followup, I'm definitely going to be using it in the appropriate situations regardless. I mean if playing wolf didn't already feel like being goku, this will almost definitely do it for me if I manage to pull it off in a real match.

after nair you might be able to get jab into dsmash but im unsure about that as im not an incredibly comfortable wolf player. you could also shine them and get potential followups. bair might work as well which might even be a good kill combo.

I think you're actually just better off going for dsmash right after nair, tbh. It's pretty guaranteed against lightweights and in any case it's definitely more framesafe than jab-dsmash. Shine might actually be used as a cool di mixup in certain niche situations(didn't even consider shine as a possibility, good idea), or maybe just to style. As for bair, I think you're better off just straight going for the bair, but I suppose theres some potential there for a di mixup, but like the shine possiblity, it's all speculation at this point.

btw, I have a strong suspicion that wolf is just inherently good at following up from footstool relative to the rest of the cast due to his absurd fallspeed.

 

[Taytertot]

You're definitely right about footstooling being a lot better against floaties, but for wolf I think the main issue isn't whether or not the followup will work(From what I've seen, both nair and dair are essentially guaranteed for both floaties and mediums, not sure about ffers tho, haven't tested them yet. If this is inaccurate, please let me know though), but rather how easy the footstool is to land. Body size also plays a big part here, obviously.

As for practicality, I do think that footstooling could play an important part in wolf's combo game against floaties and perhaps medium fallers in situations where dair will be meteor cancelled and other aerials won't lead to any substantial percent. I think these situations are fairly common at anywhere from 15-70ish percent vs floaties, especially on stages where platforms are sparse, and even if your opponent can't meteor cancel there are plenty of situations I think when dair doesn't induce tumble and hitstun doesnt't last long enough to get the added lag on landing, which is always nice.

As an added bonus, footstool to dair is really ****ing stylish imo and satisfying as hell, so even if it turns out to not be a guaranteed followup, I'm definitely going to be using it in the appropriate situations regardless. I mean if playing wolf didn't already feel like being goku, this will almost definitely do it for me if I manage to pull it off in a real match.

what id like to find out is whether theres a good move to combo into footstool as i know that just jumping above someones head is bound to get you punished before you get the footstool at the higher competitive levels. maybe at really low percents you could do a really late fair>Lcancel>SH footstool on floaties? From my roy background i know that depending on your spacing roy's fair can give him a pretty free DJ footstool, so id be curious to know what situations set up the footstool for wolf. Maybe getting a dair on tech chase and then SH footstool?

As long as footstool doesnt allow them to tech off the ground footstool>dair should be guaranteed. Idk if someone can tech during footstool animation though.

I think you're actually just better off going for dsmash right after nair, tbh. It's pretty guaranteed against lightweights and in any case it's definitely more framesafe than jab-dsmash. Shine might actually be used as a cool di mixup in certain niche situations(didn't even consider shine as a possibility, good idea), or maybe just to style. As for bair, I think you're better off just straight going for the bair, but I suppose theres some potential there for a di mixup, but like the shine possiblity, it's all speculation at this point.

btw, I have a strong suspicion that wolf is just inherently good at following up from footstool relative to the rest of the cast due to his absurd fallspeed.

you might be right about that though i imagine that jab could, in some cases, get you the sweetspot dsmash rather then the hitbox in the middle of his arm which could prove to be worth it if you notice poor SDI on the nair or something like that.

The shine idea, in my mind, was in hopes of getting potential combos started off of footstool if their at low percents.

You might be right about bair too, though i could see some situations where an opponent has you trapped on the top platform of, say dreamland or something and theyre at high percents trying to poke up on the platform and you get the footstool because they catch your shield and you shield drop footstool and get the bair before they land for a kill.

 

[proto235]

what id like to find out is whether theres a good move to combo into footstool as i know that just jumping above someones head is bound to get you punished before you get the footstool at the higher competitive levels. maybe at really low percents you could do a really late fair>Lcancel>SH footstool on floaties? From my roy background i know that depending on your spacing roy's fair can give him a pretty free DJ footstool, so id be curious to know what situations set up the footstool for wolf. Maybe getting a dair on tech chase and then SH footstool?

Both shine and soft seem to work pretty well for floaties and semi floaties at different percents, but they do take some getting used to to land consistently. dair also works to a lesser extent, too, but it's not as good as shine for this in my experience. If you're trying to get a feel for it, try shine > footstool on a mid percent bowser in training mode to start with, then move on to other floaties once you are comfortble with it. Of course you can't easily simulate trying to react to di while doing this, but it's a start. Interesting you mention roy's fair > footstool, because I was thinking that, since fair(hard fair on ffers, soft for everything else)> shine turn around backair or some other aerial works pretty well on medium fallers and up, fair > footstool > bair might be a workable option sometimes.

As long as footstool doesnt allow them to tech off the ground footstool>dair should be guaranteed. Idk if someone can tech during footstool animation though.

I don't believe you can tech during the animation, but I could be wrong about that. Even so I would probably just go for the dair or something, just for consistency's sake.

you might be right about that though i imagine that jab could, in some cases, get you the sweetspot dsmash rather then the hitbox in the middle of his arm which could prove to be worth it if you notice poor SDI on the nair or something like that.

True, perhaps jab could net you the tipper hitbox, but that's when we assume they won't di well/act out of hitstun well and just escape the combo. I mean, it's probably worth trying out, but don't think it's going to work more than once or twice once or twice on a well seasoned player. On second thought, it could work if your opponant manages to sdi in front of you out of nair and is already trying to mash out something, but idk.

The shine idea, in my mind, was in hopes of getting potential combos started off of footstool if their at low percents.

Oh, ok, I could definitely see that working, especially if you have a platform nearby to waveland on to, especially since shine gets around the problem of aerials interrupting falling through platforms. Shine does necessitate you having a doublejump, tho so that complicates things somewhat, Also, situations where just going for shine straight up isn't as good as footstoll > shine are going to be pretty niche already, but I guess we'll see what comes up after a bit of labbing..

You might be right about bair too, though i could see some situations where an opponent has you trapped on the top platform of, say dreamland or something and theyre at high percents trying to poke up on the platform and you get the footstool because they catch your shield and you shield drop footstool and get the bair before they land for a kill.

Hmm, interesting idea, I guess I could see that working too. Though you could probably DI out of it for the most part, I highly doubt anyone would be prepared for a crazy option like that.

 

[Taytertot]

Both shine and soft seem to work pretty well for floaties and semi floaties at different percents, but they do take some getting used to to land consistently. dair also works to a lesser extent, too, but it's not as good as shine for this in my experience. If you're trying to get a feel for it, try shine > footstool on a mid percent bowser in training mode to start with, then move on to other floaties once you are comfortble with it. Of course you can't easily simulate trying to react to di while doing this, but it's a start. Interesting you mention roy's fair > footstool, because I was thinking that, since fair(hard fair on ffers, soft for everything else)> shine turn around backair or some other aerial works pretty well on medium fallers and up, fair > footstool > bair might be a workable option sometimes.



I don't believe you can tech during the animation, but I could be wrong about that. Even so I would probably just go for the dair or something, just for consistency's sake.




True, perhaps jab could net you the tipper hitbox, but that's when we assume they won't di well/act out of hitstun well and just escape the combo. I mean, it's probably worth trying out, but don't think it's going to work more than once or twice once or twice on a well seasoned player. On second thought, it could work if your opponant manages to sdi in front of you out of nair and is already trying to mash out something, but idk.



Oh, ok, I could definitely see that working, especially if you have a platform nearby to waveland on to, especially since shine gets around the problem of aerials interrupting falling through platforms. Shine does necessitate you having a doublejump, tho so that complicates things somewhat, Also, situations where just going for shine straight up isn't as good as footstoll > shine are going to be pretty niche already, but I guess we'll see what comes up after a bit of labbing..



Hmm, interesting idea, I guess I could see that working too. Though you could probably DI out of it for the most part, I highly doubt anyone would be prepared for a crazy option like that.

i guess most of my thoughts are more mixups rather then optimal punishes, but mixups do have their place in the meta. I'll definitely try to lab out some fair into footstool combos but it might take me a while cause ive got slow hands.

 

[proto235]

i guess most of my thoughts are more mixups rather then optimal punishes, but mixups do have their place in the meta. I'll definitely try to lab out some fair into footstool combos but it might take me a while cause ive got slow hands.

I think that a mixup can be and often is the optimal punish, even if there is a significant chance it will miss, because the risk/reward is still good enough to justify choosing it over the other options. But yeah, I do think that a lot of these footstool setups can be applied best as a mixup.

This is just my two cents, but if you're not that technical yet, it might just be better to get your bread and butter spacie tech down first(shffl shine, waveshine, shine oos, shine turn-around backair, etc) and your laser game before working on footstools, just due to how much mileage you get from those techs. If you're just playing around with wolf for fun, than by all means footstool away, but otherwise its probably best to worry too much about them.

 

[Taytertot]

I think that a mixup can be and often is the optimal punish, even if there is a significant chance it will miss, because the risk/reward is still good enough to justify choosing it over the other options. But yeah, I do think that a lot of these footstool setups can be applied best as a mixup.

This is just my two cents, but if you're not that technical yet, it might just be better to get your bread and butter spacie tech down first(shffl shine, waveshine, shine oos, shine turn-around backair, etc) and your laser game before working on footstools, just due to how much mileage you get from those techs. If you're just playing around with wolf for fun, than by all means footstool away, but otherwise its probably best to worry too much about them.

yeah my tech skill isnt even amazing with roy who's my main so spacies tech is something i need to work on.

I agree that sometimes the mixups can be optimal, especially in terms of how heavy the punish is, though i generally prefer to cover options over going for reads (like for example, trying to read a missed tech rather then assuming your opponent can hit the tech and covering a few options instead that might not get as a heavy a punish but is much more reiable.) but if these hypothetical footstool combos are guaranteed then its just a matter of tech consistency.

 

[proto235]

yeah my tech skill isnt even amazing with roy who's my main so spacies tech is something i need to work on.

I agree that sometimes the mixups can be optimal, especially in terms of how heavy the punish is, though i generally prefer to cover options over going for reads (like for example, trying to read a missed tech rather then assuming your opponent can hit the tech and covering a few options instead that might not get as a heavy a punish but is much more reiable.) but if these hypothetical footstool combos are guaranteed then its just a matter of tech consistency.

Yeah, I agree with you, and I think most of the low percent footstool combos we discussed work consistently, but the question is what you can get off of these footstool combos that you couldn't using a traditional followup, and I think that besides a few niche situations I think the extra difficulty in landing a footstool at low percent is not justified, except for when your opponent has very predictable DI which, if taken advantage of with a footstool could extend the combo further. Also, I think footstool could possibly help fill the gap in wolf's combo game against people who are/will be really good at SDI for the low percent nair shine combos, but I haven't had time to test it just yet.

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Is anyone here considering going to Tipped Off 11 in November?

 

[Gunslinger]

Is anyone here considering going to Tipped Off 11 in November?

I'll be there but I'm as free as water

 

[redcometchar]

So I've been having some trouble approaching lately. I feel like nair gets beat by too much stuff, lasers are too hard to shoot low, and I am not good enough to pivot bair consistently. Advice? thanks

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

So I've been having some trouble approaching lately. I feel like nair gets beat by too much stuff, lasers are too hard to shoot low, and I am not good enough to pivot bair consistently. Advice? thanks

Learn to laser low, learn to pivot b-air, learn to approach without having your move stuffed out; don't limit yourself. Shield stop b-air is another easier option instead of pivot b-air, you can also do RAR b-air. Use dash-dancing, mixup your wavedashing and approaches, try out running shine, see what they like to do.

 

[Kaithewolf]

So about multishining....
Anyone got a better idea how to do it than twitching your thumb between y and b 4 frames apart?

 

[redcometchar]

So about multishining....
Anyone got a better idea how to do it than twitching your thumb between y and b 4 frames apart?

Claw grip
or set jump or special to l or r or z or something

also another question, sometimes after I hit a shortened side b sweet spot, I get the visual effect of side b along with the 19 percent or whatever but the sourspot knockback. Is this intentional?

 

[proto235]

So I've been having some trouble approaching lately. I feel like nair gets beat by too much stuff, lasers are too hard to shoot low, and I am not good enough to pivot bair consistently. Advice? thanks

Let me reiterate what TimeMuffin mentioned about practicing low lasers. PRACTICE LOW LASERS. Seriously, they make your neutral game better across the board. I would even go so far as to rate them on par, if not slightly better than falco's lasers when all things are considered.

In the absence of lasers, though, you have to wait for a moment when your opponent isn't likely able to immediately stuff your approach. This means being unpredictable with your timings and generally making your opponent feel uncomfortable enough to commit to a defensive option which allows you to at least get an aerial on shield, if not just an outright punish. Lasers do this for you almost automatically vs opponents who can't counter them, but when you don't have lasers, you still have run in wd back, run in shield, or even an intentionally very undershot nair or perhaps bair, among other things. The idea is basically to stay at a range where you know your opponent wants to throw out attacks, but you can still dodge them and start up your wolf pressure when he misses.

When your approaches get stuffed almost every time it doesn't necessarily mean that you misspaced your approach, rather it's probably that when you are going to approach has become painfully obvious to your opponent. No character in this game gets a free neutral win just because you happened to approach first; You actually have to put some effort into making your approach as predictable as you can.

 

[Life]

So my character meandering has brought me around to Wolf. (The process went something like this: "hm, my control stick is getting all gummy and weird. I should switch to my backup controller. I should play a technical character to get used to my other controller. Wolf is a technical character, maybe I should learn Wolf things. Wow, I'm actually alright at Wolf things. Wait, why can't I do anything with anyone else? Guess I'm playing Wolf now.")

I was curious if you guys were aware that you can get sideB into an edge cancel into another sideB. I haven't figured out which combinations of character, percent, and DI make it work, but it's semi-reasonable to pull off on Yoshi's which is also a stage small enough that it can actually kill (since this mostly works well before sideB kill percents).

...okay, I'll admit it: I'm mostly posting here because I wanted to see if this combo had a name. I've been calling it "the Overdose Combo" (because you've had too many Energems) but if it's already called something I don't want to cause confusion LOL

 

[AlphaSSB]

Man, it's quite here. I've been watching over around here as well as Wolf's area in Brawl's forums, but there doesn't seem to be any activity. Hopefully this place can light back up again.