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PM Wolf Social thread

Kitanamonk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
37
Location
UK
I watched your video, and for all the shortens you tell me to press B within three frames (or one frame). So how do control the shortens? Because if I press within as fast as posssible, sometimes I don't get the intended result.
P.S. How do you determine frames in PM?
If you want to look at the move frame by frame, go into debug mode and press start, then use Z to move forward one frame. Input the side-B while pressing Z and then try and press B again along the side-b path. This way you will see the exact frame the different shortens happen on.
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
Location
The Round Table
Hey guys I'm having a lot of trouble utilting (I know how nooby). Whenever I go for the up tilt, I either jump or smash. I can do it out of certain things such as a non jump cancel shined or standing still, but not out of out of wave dash or sheild. Any advice?
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Hey guys I'm having a lot of trouble utilting (I know how nooby). Whenever I go for the up tilt, I either jump or smash. I can do it out of certain things such as a non jump cancel shined or standing still, but not out of out of wave dash or sheild. Any advice?
sounds like you use tap jump. you could always turn that off.

I find that holding up ahead of time gets it pretty consistently. so when you land from a wavedash hold up immediately and then press a afterward. though i dont use tap jump
 
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Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Like the dude above said you can turn tap jump off for a less precise utilt input. This would probably solve all your issues haha. (And a little practice).

Practice makes perfect though. It's easy in high pressure situations to jam the stick hard and do a smash, you'll have to be conditioned for that soft partially upwards input on the control stick. So hit the lab and practice a Wavedash into utilt until that muscle memory is built. I would practice waveland down->utilt too because that quick down-to-partially-up control stick motion is easy to flub and input a smash.

Also, you can't utilt out of shield like you can with an UpSmash.
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
well technically you can do it after shield drop or anything else (i guess you cant do it without actually shield dropping) but the lag from certain moves are going to make it not worth doing in certain situations. So i guess it would depend on when and how you generally use it. Based on that you can get an idea of how to practice. if youre set on keeping tap jump on then id say just practice doing the light movement up with A so that you do it without jumping (idk how that works because i specifically dont use tap jump to make utilt easier.) but i know theres a way. maybe play some friendlies matches and get a feel for when you'd generally use it so that you know how to practice and what to look for in a situation that makes you want to use utilt.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
So what can't you do an uptilt right after? Just shield? I just wanna know what I should practice.
If you want to keep tap jump on, your just gonna have to get used to placing the control stick in the precise location for a utilt so it doesn't jab and doesn't jump. If you jab, you didn't go high enough. If you jump, you went too high. How fast you move the control stick doesn't matter, you can insta whip it into the sweet spot or take 5 seconds to crawl it, it's all about that precise spot. So if your wondering what to practice, practice finding that sweetspot for utilt. Practice doing the move standing still first, once you got that 100% try some more technical inputs like Wavedash->utilt or dash->crouch cancel->utilt. It's a pain and can be frustrating to learn but keep at it and it will be as natural as anything else in smash.

If you want a less strict input, disable tap jump. This allows you to move the stick into the tap jump zone without jumping and ultimately, gives you an easier input for utilt. Practice would be the same, this way is just easier.

Regarding utilt out of shield, I might have been a little unclear there. You can drop your shield and do any move after, yes, but dropping shield is very laggy and punishable and generally not recommended. However with UpSmash, you can jump out of shield and input an UpSmash during the jumpsquat frames. This cancels your jump and does an UpSmash without having to wait for your shield to drop. You can only cancel jumpsquats into UpSmash, up special, and grab, tilts won't work.
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
Location
The Round Table
If you want to look at the move frame by frame, go into debug mode and press start, then use Z to move forward one frame. Input the side-B while pressing Z and then try and press B again along the side-b path. This way you will see the exact frame the different shortens happen on.
Ok so I went into debug mode. So I should press the shorten when the red circle appears along the path of the side B? Also, what is the best way to practice this?
 

Kitanamonk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
37
Location
UK
Ok so I went into debug mode. So I should press the shorten when the red circle appears along the path of the side B? Also, what is the best way to practice this?
Just experiment with the B timings, as soon as you input the B Wolf will stop. The 3 frames start just before wolf begins to move forward.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Ok so I went into debug mode. So I should press the shorten when the red circle appears along the path of the side B? Also, what is the best way to practice this?
That red circle behind wolf is the lagging hitbox. It's that weak little clip hit that doesn't knock them very far. You have to press B on the frame wolf is actually there and then the hitbox will appear on top of wolf.

Regarding practice: keep in mind these are 1 frame inputs to get the exact distance you want. That's a 1/60 second window. So realistically it's damn near impossible to 100% of the time hit the shorten you want. I'd say I'm at like 60% on a good day.

Practice is pretty much grinding it out. Stand right next to the guy to practice the shortest side B. For the next length, I found out that ness can be hit by the 2nd shorten (no angle) but not the third (unless you angle down). So stand a little back from ness and don't angle the side B and if you hit nice you got the 2nd shorten. Same thing can be applied to marth who can't be hit by a non angled full side B but can be hit by the 3/4.

Or like get a turbo controller and hit turbo and B as soon as you start the shorten and you'll get guaranteed super shortens every time haha
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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That red circle behind wolf is the lagging hitbox. It's that weak little clip hit that doesn't knock them very far. You have to press B on the frame wolf is actually there and then the hitbox will appear on top of wolf.

Regarding practice: keep in mind these are 1 frame inputs to get the exact distance you want. That's a 1/60 second window. So realistically it's damn near impossible to 100% of the time hit the shorten you want. I'd say I'm at like 60% on a good day.

Practice is pretty much grinding it out. Stand right next to the guy to practice the shortest side B. For the next length, I found out that ness can be hit by the 2nd shorten (no angle) but not the third (unless you angle down). So stand a little back from ness and don't angle the side B and if you hit nice you got the 2nd shorten. Same thing can be applied to marth who can't be hit by a non angled full side B but can be hit by the 3/4.

Or like get a turbo controller and hit turbo and B as soon as you start the shorten and you'll get guaranteed super shortens every time haha
I'd argue that because it's a muscle memory timing so it's a much easier input to get consistently. Unless you're of course trying to hit on reaction 100% of the time.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
I'd argue that because it's a muscle memory timing so it's a much easier input to get consistently. Unless you're of course trying to hit on reaction 100% of the time.
Yeah you do get that "feel" for the timing I find. But I would argue if your 100% confident your always going to hit, you should be throwing every single side B that will hit. Offstage, off of jab resets when your at the edge, and all those risky situations because you have 100% muscle memory. That's pretty unrealistic.

Look at Sandstorm (or whatever that last big tourney was were Sethlon won PM). Westballz flubbed shortens and he's been doing them for years n years. Even with years of conditioned muscle memory, it's easy to be off by 1/60 of a second.
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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Yeah you do get that "feel" for the timing I find. But I would argue if your 100% confident your always going to hit, you should be throwing every single side B that will hit. Offstage, off of jab resets when your at the edge, and all those risky situations because you have 100% muscle memory. That's pretty unrealistic.

Look at Sandstorm (or whatever that last big tourney was were Sethlon won PM). Westballz flubbed shortens and he's been doing them for years n years. Even with years of conditioned muscle memory, it's easy to be off by 1/60 of a second.
PM is probably slightly different timings compared to melee. And I do agree that you're not going to get them 100%, but I can try hard to get as close as possible.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
in all honesty, i dont think that one would be losing out on very much of wolf's potential by not trying to get the shortenings down packed. Maybe understanding them enough so that if you want it shortened to some extent you can at least press B within those 3 frames but I dont think worrying about which shortening it is will be such a detriment to ones gameplay that they would nt be able to be an amazing wolf player.

In other words I dont think sideB is what makes wolf good though it is a nice kill move to have.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Your right Tayter I mean it's pretty advanced tech. Once you have fundamentals down and are looking to perfect your game is when you start playing with exact side B's haha
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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in all honesty, i dont think that one would be losing out on very much of wolf's potential by not trying to get the shortenings down packed. Maybe understanding them enough so that if you want it shortened to some extent you can at least press B within those 3 frames but I dont think worrying about which shortening it is will be such a detriment to ones gameplay that they would nt be able to be an amazing wolf player.

In other words I dont think sideB is what makes wolf good though it is a nice kill move to have.
I think the main usage of his side-b is the fully extended one, the shorten distances are just icing on the cake.
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
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We are starting a campaign to get Sakurai to make Wolf a DLC character so he can be playable in Super Smash Bros for Wii U and Super Smash Bros for 3DS. Wolf was a Brawl veteran from the Starfox series, he had a unique moveset, and was a well balanced character who had really bad*** taunts. However he did not make the initial cut for Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS. However DLC is possible, but to our current knowledge, Sakurai is hesitant to do more DLC. You don't hesitate, just act. We are here to act, and to get our veteran playable again.
^In Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS, Wolf has been reduced to a trophy of himself from Starfox Assault, has three renditions of his theme in the game, Fox has a custom move blatantly named Wolf Flash, Wolf's side special, but perhaps the worst of all is appearing in the Lylat Cruise codecs, He appeared in them back in brawl, and in one of them was hinted at being playable. "Boy those two are always itching to fight huh.",Slippy referencing that Wolf and Falco are unlockable characters. However in this game that same codec is still there, yet Wolf is not playable in the game,but Falco is, and still an unlockable character, to make matters worse, Wolf has been stripped of his highly detailed brawl model, and replaced with a much less detailed model, which to some looks hideous. In a way its like he's being mocked for not being playable. Wolf does not deserve this, he is a villain/antihero and a very iconic Nintendo character, best know for his bad*** one liners like "Can't Let you do that Starfox" Wolf is also reported to appear in the new Starfox game for Wii U, making him a relevant character. Smash games usually span 6 years before a new entry is released. Wolf should not have to be stuck like this for 6 years or more, when he can be added to Super Smash Bros for Wii U and Super Smash Bros for 3DS as DLC. Paying to have Wolf playable, is better than having no Wolf playable.
^This is what Wolf looked like back in Brawl, you can see how much more detailed he is than the Wolf currently in Super Smash Bros Wii U/3DS. We must restore him to his former glory, DLC can do that, but we must convince Sakurai to commit to Wolf DLC, if he secretly isn't doing it already. We only require your support, simply tell us you support our cause, and your name will be added to the supporters list. Also convince others to request Wolf for DLC. There is strength in numbers.Any additional support, ranging from making videos, pictures, and other forms of entertainment that are geared towards achieving more support to have Wolf be playable in Super Smash Bros Wii U and Super Smash Bros for 3DS as DLC is greatly appreciated. We must start this campaign now, its purpose, To persuade Sakurai to make Wolf DLC, or if Sakurai already is making Wolf DLC, this is to show our support and appreciation for doing so.





Wolf's supporters. WOLF FOR DLC :wolf:
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PM Wolf is a beast:pimp:
Let's put all the users in this list to good use. Nintendo Direct just announced Super Smash Ballot, which means you can vote for any character in Smash 4. So let's all vote for Wolf yeah? https://cp.nintendo.co.jp/us/

WOLF SQUAD.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
I just started picking up wolf a few weeks ago (though ive been jumping around between roy, samus, ganon and G&W as well) and i find myself being more successful with up throw combos then with the other three which is probably due to poor tech skill and slow fingers and I notice that most of the wolfs i see on stream or youtube dont use up throw much which leads me to believe im missing something. Why would i use the others over up throw (especially at low percents because at the higher percents back/down/forward throw have much more obvious combo setups)?
 
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Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Upthrow is great for getting confirms on fast fallers at just about any percent. At low %, you can up throw->UpSmash and start juggling those fast fallers. At high percents you can get uthrow into a launcher like Bair or maybe even a smash if you work with a platform; a sweetspot fair could kill off the top too. However at higher percents I usually go for the back throw->dsmash cheese as the throw is fast and your opponent has to di ahead of time, it kills extremely well, and only di away from wolf will avoid the combo. If their % is too high you can't get the dsmash tho and you just look for another launcher.

I haven't labbed it much yet, but I think we can have very close to true combo potential with up throw->fair on floaties at certain %. I only practiced against jiggs but at about 45-50 with an average/low cieling uthrow sends her high enough for fair to kill but not so high that you can't get the fair. She does drop out of hitstun before the fair connects by a few frames.

Your right i don't see a whole lot of up throw with wolf, maybe it's untapped potential :)
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
most of the wolf videos i watch are of chillindude who seems to really like the tech chases with dair after either down or back throw. I would like to see upthrow more. on some characters (cant remember the weights) i can get upthrow uair at highish percents to kill as long as I hit with the left or right side of uair.

Also unsure of the percents or weights but im pretty sure upthrow>nair>shine>whatever follow up you can get works if theres a lowish platform above you.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Rat and scythe play quite differently from chillin it's worth checking out their vids. Rat has a really useful wolf tutorial vid worth checking out, I learned a lot! (It's 3.02 but whatevs). Here's the link: http://youtu.be/oJOl98yKJ78

I like that u throw->uair idea, you can hit higher and more easily than with a fair. I always used it a little against floaties but at low % for damage, never for kills. So good thinking using the side hitboxes, I feel like on yoshis story you could kill some light characters pretty early. Uthrow->nair->shine man never thought of that either but it could work too. That'd be a really nice string on a floaty to tack on some extra damage cause normally I just uthrow then up air them a few times at low %, your idea adds a nair and shine into the mix. But you probably would need the platform (for floaties anyways, fast fallers you'd wanna use more juggly moves like UpSmash, utilt and uair) as it's hard to drag floaties to the ground from high up with nair cause they fall too slow. Smashing some friendlies soon and happy to be teaching a newcomer to the scene some wolf so I'll definitely lab some uthrow stuff and see what I find :)
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
cool i'll check that out. thanks. ive got smash club today so maybe i'll try some wolf and see how this goes. usually i stick to roy (and a little ganon for fun).
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
so my wolf play didnt go so well at the club. just to vent as a new wolf player, the f****** tech skill required and finger accuracy is SO FRUSTRATING. I try to jump in and shine but i either sideB because my finger is still holding side a little when i press B or i shine just a bit too early so im right above their head shining and get punished (basically i suck hahaha). If only tech skill was as easy as theory. Anyway. now that im done complaining like a little kid, does anyone play wolf in doubles? if so what tools/gameplans do you find useful in doubles and how do you use the tools?
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
so my wolf play didnt go so well at the club. just to vent as a new wolf player, the f****** tech skill required and finger accuracy is SO FRUSTRATING. I try to jump in and shine but i either sideB because my finger is still holding side a little when i press B or i shine just a bit too early so im right above their head shining and get punished (basically i suck hahaha). If only tech skill was as easy as theory. Anyway. now that im done complaining like a little kid, does anyone play wolf in doubles? if so what tools/gameplans do you find useful in doubles and how do you use the tools?
Hey dude practice makes perfect. Once your wolf is mastered you'll feel super dangerous and fluid :) as long as he's fun that's the main thing. We call auiciding with side B "wolfing" in my area it's so common, even with fox and Falco haha

I like using wolf like fox in doubles if you run a wolf/Falco combo and wolf just goes in and goes ham with shines to disrupt things and Falco supports with lasers and smashes stuff that gets kicked out. Wolf can do the Falco role too but his laser isn't as good.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Hey dude practice makes perfect. Once your wolf is mastered you'll feel super dangerous and fluid :) as long as he's fun that's the main thing. We call auiciding with side B "wolfing" in my area it's so common, even with fox and Falco haha

I like using wolf like fox in doubles if you run a wolf/Falco combo and wolf just goes in and goes ham with shines to disrupt things and Falco supports with lasers and smashes stuff that gets kicked out. Wolf can do the Falco role too but his laser isn't as good.
yeah i'll get the hang of it. I havent been play PM for very long (about 5 months) and im used to brawl so my tech is crap.

cool i think i was playing either with an ivy player or a cpt. falcon player on my team and we did pretty well (granted the other 2 players werent very used to PM)
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
Location
The Round Table
Hi, it seems like I'm having a bit of trouble with a gamenwatch. He's so light that most attacks carry hm a significant distance away, and spikes are a lot harder against gamenwatch. Also, my blaster waveland seems to sometimes miss. Any advice, especially about the blaster missing?
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
well id say that you dont really need to be going for dair offstage to kill since GnW is one of the lightest characters in the game as well as floaty it would be much easier to kill him with fair, bair, fsmash, dsmash, ftilt, combo into sideB or even uair and usmash. his upB is going to stuff a lot of dair setups/edgeguards anyway.

he does have a lot of disjoint but his approach isnt great because he has only a few options to do so which makes him predictable in that sense (i.e. fair if he jumps facing towards you, bair if he jumps facing away, or the laggy dash attack. he can go for grab but lasers should make that difficult for GnW with or without Wavelanding them.) GnW generally relies on bacon to at a somewhat closeish range in order to put you in a bad position so that he can safely approach so either DD away or laser him as he tries to enter the range of his bacon (i think laser's a better option). Try to just SHFF laser so that your lasers are at ground level while giving you some movement options in the air. the lasers should force GnW to approach with aerials (fair or bair) which you should punish by moving outta range and then hitting him from slightly above as hes about to land with well spaced bair or dair or he'll bacon in the air which wolf's dash attack, usmash or just run under and reset neutral may work if youre quick to react.

Think of GnW as a glass cannon. he can deal out massive damage with his great combo game but he also dies early. But his upB can save him from some combos so be ready for that and ready for him to try to shift the momentum after he upBs out of a combo.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Against light chars, especially like game and watch with a 1 frame get out of jail free up-B, you have to accept your comboes won't be as large. Shine->uair->uair is about as good as you can get. After that reset the neutral and try to win again.

sometimes you can hit a down air or work with platforms to get things going but mostly just focus on continuously winning neutral with small comboes. The advantage you get from G&W being light is that he dies early. Shine->fair is a great kill option, as is just hitting him with any smash attack at ~80% and up.

G&W is short but your laser should hit him, unless he crouches you have to fire a super low laser. An easy way to fire a low laser is to just short hop then fast fall the laser. You can't waveland but it's only a few frames more lag and it's guarenteed to be a super low laser.
 

Kitanamonk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
37
Location
UK
Against light chars, especially like game and watch with a 1 frame get out of jail free up-B, you have to accept your comboes won't be as large. Shine->uair->uair is about as good as you can get. After that reset the neutral and try to win again.

sometimes you can hit a down air or work with platforms to get things going but mostly just focus on continuously winning neutral with small comboes. The advantage you get from G&W being light is that he dies early. Shine->fair is a great kill option, as is just hitting him with any smash attack at ~80% and up.

G&W is short but your laser should hit him, unless he crouches you have to fire a super low laser. An easy way to fire a low laser is to just short hop then fast fall the laser. You can't waveland but it's only a few frames more lag and it's guarenteed to be a super low laser.

Shine Dair will work on every character in the game from fox to jigglypuff, even with the 1 frame up-B your combos on GnW can be huge. There's also the really easy side-B set ups that will wreck against him, really, combos are not the problem. I find that GnW's strong CC game is a struggle, CC D-tilt is great and will pop you up for his deadly follow ups.

Also, you can get lasers close enough to the ground with the short hop waveland to hit GnW, even when he is crouching but it is very difficult to do consistently.
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Help me out here but I find getting big comboes on floaties hard. At low percent, you might hit the down air out of the shine, but then they come out of hitstun before you can act and G&W will punish you (with no platforms). At higher percents he goes too high but you should be looking to kill anyways.
 

Kitanamonk

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
37
Location
UK
Help me out here but I find getting big comboes on floaties hard. At low percent, you might hit the down air out of the shine, but then they come out of hitstun before you can act and G&W will punish you (with no platforms). At higher percents he goes too high but you should be looking to kill anyways.
For light floaty characters, instead of Dair, I just use falling Nair. Not sure this helps much, but it's all I can offer :/
Shine - Dair will work all the way up to around 80% on GnW and he is in hitstun the whole time. Shine has enough hitstun for you to double jump Dair before he can Up-B. (I tested this on FD btw so no platforms)

Nair is great vs floaties so no problem there, I use both for flexibility so I recommend learning the Dair pillars.
 
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Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
I played yesterday and found with some good di from the opponent shine->dair doesn't work all that great on floaties. If they di away just a jump makes it tough to get close enough for a follow up, and if I waveshine they are out of hitstun.

I played vs a Kirby and jiggs. I actually had a monster pillar on the Kirby but he didn't di or tech so that's why it worked. The jiggs was a little more high calibur and I found myself resorting to uairs but I had some nice pillars on battlefield using platforms for waveland and utilt.

I believe the shine->dair works but you either need some platforms or the right di
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
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The Round Table
I like shine Nair because since floaties are so light, they fly away at low percentages. Nair has little to no starting lag, and has a better chance of hitting your opponent before they can hit you. I find that chasing after with a Dair in the often leads to a punish or whiff if not timed correctly.
 

Sur Fartsalot

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 15, 2015
Messages
181
Location
The Round Table
Ok, so I've been recently working on my movement using wavedashing and dashdancing. The only applicable times where I use dashdancing I found is when I want to mix up my laser, and dashdance into a laser waveland, although I rarely use this. I have been working on wavedashing out of shine, and using wavedashes to move forward/backwards instead of just moving. Any advice on other ways to use wavedashing and dashdancing?

In addition, as a marth melee player, I've been working on mindgames. However, I can't really find any for wolf. Dashdancing laser waveland is the only one I have found, as I can't really bait an attack an wavedash back because of wolf's small wavedash. Any advice also for mindgames with wolf, or good pressure is good enough?

Unrelatedly, what do you guys think wolf's best smash is? I believe it's his downsmash, which kills about 20% faster on FD with fox, but I find it's really hard to sweetspot. What do you guys believe?
 
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Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Ok, so I've been recently working on my movement using wavedashing and dashdancing. The only applicable times where I use dashdancing I found is when I want to mix up my laser, and dashdance into a laser waveland, although I rarely use this. I have been working on wavedashing out of shine, and using wavedashes to move forward/backwards instead of just moving. Any advice on other ways to use wavedashing and dashdancing?

In addition, as a marth melee player, I've been working on mindgames. However, I can't really find any for wolf. Dashdancing laser waveland is the only one I have found, as I can't really bait an attack an wavedash back because of wolf's small wavedash. Any advice also for mindgames with wolf, or good pressure is good enough?

Unrelatedly, what do you guys think wolf's best smash is? I believe it's his downsmash, which kills about 20% faster on FD with fox, but I find it's really hard to sweetspot. What do you guys believe?
Sorry this post ended up being really long, but i hope my thought help

Well something to note about wolf's dash speed is that hes pretty close to the top in terms of top speed (somewhere around 7th fastest top speed), though i dont know how quickly he accelerates to that top speed from a dash, but regardless his dashes are pretty quick so dash dancing should be quite useful for playing footies (especially in MUs where laser is less effective). Wavedashing has many similar uses but i find it much better for managing microspacing, which most likely help a lot against sword characters and anyone else with better range than wolf. When you say that you've been working on wavedashes to move forward/backward instead of just moving what do you mean? because wavedashing is a type of movment.

in itself dash dancing and wavedashing is often used for the sake of mindgames to try to make one's approaches unpredictable. Mindgames as a whole though, are ways to trick one's opponent so there isnt such a thing as having a list of mindgames because mindgames have to do with what patterns you've been using and what patterns your opponent has been using. the patterns work as information in order to give you an idea of what kind of mindgames you can play on the other player so i think its kinda up to you to figure out during a match with someone what strategies and tricks work. Just remember while youre in a match that mindgames are about throwing off your opponents pattern recognition rather then a set of tricks that you expect to always work.

to somewhat quote umbreon's guide to drastic improvement (which is on the smashboards and something id definitely recommend you read when youve got time) you shouldnt be relying (heavily) on mindgames and reads because they are by default a informative guess in hopes to get more reward then you would normally get and is therefore, inherently an unnecessary high risk high reward situation, where you'd often be better off cutting off options and playing a safe and methodical game. And while i think that having mindgames and reads are useful and not all of them are all that risky, you shouldnt be thinking of them as a main part of your gameplan. having them as a mixup is good because even the safest strategy can punished if the opponent knows ahead of time that youre going to use it, but generally speaking they should be used scarcely since they are more of a high risk high reward option. Good, safe pressure is going to be what a majority of your gameplan should look like. Umbreon definitely words it better so read that guide when you can (i will warn you that it is long). I like to think of the idea of having 80% or more of my gameplan be sticking to safe pressure while the small 20% or less be reads and mindgames.

personally i like fsmash, usmash and then dsmash in that order as far as "good" goes. (my opinion of "good" has more to do with option coverage and general usefulness rather then power though and i think fsmash covers an awesome amount of space and is quite quick, usmash covers a nice bubble around wolf and can often catch people rolling/teching behind wolf). not to say that dsmash isnt good, i just dont find myself using it that often.
 
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