Pkmn Trainer with no fatigue and no force switching

[Steeler]

the game is not "meant" to be played competitively anyway heh

 

[Shaya]

I lol'd at

"Dedede is high because of his waddle dees".

LOL.

Squirtle would still get the 'bop' because of the grab release shenanigans.
Squirtle I find is better to finish off the stock rather than go a whole stock starter with him (against all his opponents who can release grab him); you want to reduce as much time as possible due to fatigue and the higher chance of getting grabbed... As you got the dthrow and hydroplane, Squirtle is probably the best character in the game for getting an 'aggressive' grab.

 

[Toby.]

Dedede is EPIC TOP TIER because of HE WILL NEVER DIE.


EVER.

 

[Shaya]

And ***** Squirtle.

 

[Gindler]

Ghetto, squirtle is smaller with fast aerial movement too, and shellshifting means he is hard to hit even when he lands on the ground. So squirtle is probably harder to hit.

The PT boards should play Brawl+ and they'd be happy. No forced switching, no fatigue. We need to tell them to give Ivysaur a recovery that works however, and better aerial movement to make him viable.

And yeah, Ivy has a marginally better recovery than link. Link falls way to fast to even get back to the stage, Ivy at least has a chance to whip on. Even with edgehogging, Link is just as easy to edgehog, and anywhere he can recover from without being edgehogged, so can Ivysaur. However Ivy potentially could recover from farther, as long as you manage to remove the edgehogger.

Lets invade the B+ boards and improve Ivy. :D

I main Ivy in B+ and he needs to be nerfed if anything. Razor leaf is so fast you might as well be double lazering with falco, Uthrow or Dthrow start the ridiculous Uair chains. And Ivy has one of the best recoveries in B+ because everyone without a tether has to sweetspot it themselves. It's just ridiculous.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

I main Ivy in B+ and he needs to be nerfed if anything. Razor leaf is so fast you might as well be double lazering with falco, Uthrow or Dthrow start the ridiculous Uair chains. And Ivy has one of the best recoveries in B+ because everyone without a tether has to sweetspot it themselves. It's just ridiculous.

everything that you have just said is completely irrelevant to this thread. ivysaur may be good in brawl plus but thats not whats used in tournaments so no one gives a **** about it. This is about hacking regular brawl without all the extra melee-esque attributes that brawl plus has

Seems like it would lead to a slippery slope. Unlike music or replay hacks, you're actually changing the way Brawl is played now. It's also a lot more fun when you beat people with PT as he is

So let me see if I have this correct: By your logic you are saying that random tripping, one of the worst decisions in gaming history that only inhibits competitive play, should be kept in tournaments for the sole reason that it was originally put in the game? This does not change the way brawl is played- brawl plus does that. This changes no game mechanics, it just makes pokemon trainer more usable. And since when was the point of a tournament to have fun? The whole idea of a tournament is to make money by trying to beat other people- thats pretty much the definition. If I say that I want to use just squirtle or charizard or ivysaur because I believe that will improve my chances of winning, why should I be denied that? It isn't like any of those three are broken, and eliminating the fatigue just makes them like all the other characters. They dont have some extreme advantage that makes the fatigue necessary. If metaknight or snake don't get tired then why on earth should pokemon trainer have to get tired?

 

[T-block]

Wow way to distort my position -_-

It's not like I'm completely opposed to including these hacks, as I said in the other half of the post that you apparently didn't read. It does change the way Brawl is played - you're giving players the option to use only one Pokemon. Leave it up to the TO to decide whether to allow these hacks. All I'm saying is that when most of them say no, they'll say it's because that's not the way Brawl was meant to be played.

 

[Tien2500]

everything that you have just said is completely irrelevant to this thread. ivysaur may be good in brawl plus but thats not whats used in tournaments so no one gives a **** about it. This is about hacking regular brawl without all the extra melee-esque attributes that brawl plus has

Dude. Someone mentioned Brawl + So Gindler talked a bit about Ivy how Ivy is in that. No need to jump down a throat about it.

So let me see if I have this correct: By your logic you are saying that random tripping, one of the worst decisions in gaming history that only inhibits competitive play, should be kept in tournaments for the sole reason that it was originally put in the game? This does not change the way brawl is played- brawl plus does that. This changes no game mechanics, it just makes pokemon trainer more usable. And since when was the point of a tournament to have fun? The whole idea of a tournament is to make money by trying to beat other people- thats pretty much the definition. If I say that I want to use just squirtle or charizard or ivysaur because I believe that will improve my chances of winning, why should I be denied that? It isn't like any of those three are broken, and eliminating the fatigue just makes them like all the other characters. They dont have some extreme advantage that makes the fatigue necessary. If metaknight or snake don't get tired then why on earth should pokemon trainer have to get tired?

Some people enter tournaments for fun. Nobody does it solely for money. If you're doing it for money then you are stupid. Competitive smash is NOT a good way to make money. Unless you are really one of the top players then there is no way you are getting a good money return on the amount of work you put in. People play smash primarily because it is something they enjoy doing. If it was just about money thare are much more profitable endeavors.

This does change game mecahnics. Pokemon trainer getting fatigued is absolutely a game mechanic. If you eliminate fatigue they are not like all the other characters. All of the other characters do not have three characters accessible to them at any given time. (Zelda/Sheik has two thats about it). By eliminating fatigue/forced switching Trainer now goes even with Snake, even with Falco, slightly advantaged against Pikachu, ZSS, Rob, Diddy, and Wolf, Yoshi, gains an advantage on Ike, DK, Tlink. And this is just what happens in the matchups we've discussed on the board! He's likely also improve in matchups we haven't discussed here. (Surely against Pit, and Peach, likely against Bowser). This is not a minor change.

And you're not being denied anything at all. You chose to play a character who has three different "forms" and has fatigue. Just like if you choose Yoshi you chose a character who can't due anything out of shield because of his egg animation. If you choose Rob you choose a character who has an awful footstool animation that allows him to get comboed by many characters (and infinited by two so far). A lot of characters have disadvantages that are unique to them. We can't patch all of them. We generally don't alter fighting games to try and make every character equally viable.

And you aren't being denied your fair chance of winning any more than a Ganondorf main is being denied. You chose a character with certain strengths and weaknesses. If you want a better chance of winning either learn to use them. Or play MK.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

First of all, yes people do enter tournaments for fun, but that is not the idea behind a tournament.
According to dictionary.com, a tournament is defined as: A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner. It is about competing, its about trying to win. If you are not trying to win you might as well be playing random people outside of a tournament, as you will have the same experience. In most cases, the person who wins gets a prize, in this case being money. If there was not a large monetary prize, people would not get together to have a tournament. Find me a large tournament without money involved and I will believe that it isn't necessary.

Also, there is no way in hell that pokemon trainer is as good as snake without fatigue and forced switching. That would put him in S tier above wario and there simply is not enough evidence to support that.

Fatigue is not comparable to having a poor footstool animation. These are highly noticeable specific weaknesses that can easily be fixed. You are acting like fatigue and forced switching makes pokemon trainer more of a fair character, when it is easy to see that few people are able to place high with him.

We are also completely ignoring the idea of just making a rule that you can only use one of the pokemon if you were to turn off force switching. This would just add two more characters to the game who are just like everyone else, and we could still let people play the original if they wanted. It would be one thing if pokemon trainer's fatigue and whatnot was the main weakness, but it isn't. Most tournament matches do not even get to the point where one of the pokemon gets tired, I would want to see it removed for the sole fact that I would not want to use more than one pokemon, and having the only one u use see a significant decrease in damage and knockback after a minute and a half of play time ( assuming attacks bring it down 30 seconds) would be a little dumb considering characters like mk and snake- who have enormous advantages over most characters- dont have that.

Sheik and zelda dont have to force switch, and they arent broken, what makes u think pokemon trainer is going to become an issue? You people sound like you are just opposed to change and thats it

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

Wow way to distort my position -_-

It's not like I'm completely opposed to including these hacks, as I said in the other half of the post that you apparently didn't read. It does change the way Brawl is played - you're giving players the option to use only one Pokemon. Leave it up to the TO to decide whether to allow these hacks. All I'm saying is that when most of them say no, they'll say it's because that's not the way Brawl was meant to be played.

i agree that it changes the character, but what is the problem with editing how brawl was originally set up to be played? I bet over 90% of the people who go to tournaments think random tripping should be removed- and that is editing the original code. I understand your argument, I just don't see how it gives any support to not including this hack.

And obviously it is up to the TO to decide whether to allow the hacks, but the point of this thread to talk about it, I am in now way forcing anyone to do anything I just want someone to try and come up with a feasible argument against it.

 

[shinyspoon42]

Because it requires you to hack your wii, and some people are unwilling to do so?

 

[T-block]

Lol you're so argumentative. This thread got pretty stupid -_- None of us are arguing that PT would be broken with these hacks. And I'd say the majority of tourney-goers are NOT in it for the money. In tournaments where top 3 get money you think everyone that goes is expecting to place? How do these events get over 20 people?

Also,

Most tournament matches do not even get to the point where one of the pokemon gets tired

How the hell do you figure that?

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

i say that most of the time the pokemon do not even get to the point that they are tired because if u look at videos from tournaments thats the pattern.

I know I am argumentative but only because I am trying to prove a point. I love playing as squirtle and detest playing as ivysaur. It just makes me upset that I can't use the character I love in competitive play, that I have to use this ****ty substitute as soon as i lose a stock.

And again, while we all recognize that tournaments are fun events where the majority of the people attending just want to play and have fun, it is important to recognize that tournaments involve money for a reason. If the money was not necessary to get large groups of people, then show me one that has accomplished this. Thats all I ask. I am not trying to be a pain in the ***, but to say that rulesets and hacks should be regulated by anything other than competitive play ideas makes no sense as long as money is involved.

 

[Tien2500]

First of all, yes people do enter tournaments for fun, but that is not the idea behind a tournament.
According to dictionary.com, a tournament is defined as: A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner. It is about competing, its about trying to win. If you are not trying to win you might as well be playing random people outside of a tournament, as you will have the same experience. In most cases, the person who wins gets a prize, in this case being money. If there was not a large monetary prize, people would not get together to have a tournament. Find me a large tournament without money involved and I will believe that it isn't necessary.

Also, there is no way in hell that pokemon trainer is as good as snake without fatigue and forced switching. That would put him in S tier above wario and there simply is not enough evidence to support that.

Fatigue is not comparable to having a poor footstool animation. These are highly noticeable specific weaknesses that can easily be fixed. You are acting like fatigue and forced switching makes pokemon trainer more of a fair character, when it is easy to see that few people are able to place high with him.

We are also completely ignoring the idea of just making a rule that you can only use one of the pokemon if you were to turn off force switching. This would just add two more characters to the game who are just like everyone else, and we could still let people play the original if they wanted. It would be one thing if pokemon trainer's fatigue and whatnot was the main weakness, but it isn't. Most tournament matches do not even get to the point where one of the pokemon gets tired, I would want to see it removed for the sole fact that I would not want to use more than one pokemon, and having the only one u use see a significant decrease in damage and knockback after a minute and a half of play time ( assuming attacks bring it down 30 seconds) would be a little dumb considering characters like mk and snake- who have enormous advantages over most characters- dont have that.

Sheik and zelda dont have to force switch, and they arent broken, what makes u think pokemon trainer is going to become an issue? You people sound like you are just opposed to change and thats it

Don't go to dictionary definitions. I'm not going to argue semantics. And I really don't want to draw this into a play to win argument anyways.

I didn't say PT would be as good as snake. I said he would be an even matchup. According to our matchup thread Snake goes 50-50 with Ivy. So if Ivy could stay in the whole time and not switch then the matchup would be even. Of course this is assuming the matchup thread is accurate and current.

Tournament players don't get to the point where one character is fatigued very often for the simple fact tournament players (at least the ones posting videos online) are good enough to get around this. Even if your pokemon never actually gets tired it still forces you to switch before you would want to, and sometimes more aggresively than you'd like.


And having three characters instead of one is certainly a significant advantage as it is. Without fatigue the advantage becomes a far larger advantage when it comes to counterpicking.

Having people choose to either use one pokemon without fatigue or all three normally wouldn't work. It would require seperate versions of Brawl set up and ready for use whenever someone decided to use PT.

I didn't say Trainer would be broken either. I said he would be way way better (which he would) and it was a more significant change then you seem to think. And why should we suddenly hack the game to make a certain character way better? I'm sure lots of different people would like their mains improved. And if the hacking community put their mind to it I'm sure they could try to balance everything out. (In fact one of the goals of Brawl + is to make more characters viable). Assuming it is possible to hack the game to balance other characters in the roster? These are not the only "highly noticable specific weaknesses". Yoshi's shield problem is just as highly noticable, just as specific, and arguably more debilitating. Why shouldn't we fix that too?

 

[Steeler]

ivy isn't even with snake but squirtle might be.

 

[T-block]

I'd put Squirtle at 55-45 over Snake >_>

I didn't say Trainer would be broken either. I said he would be way way better (which he would) and it was a more significant change then you seem to think. And why should we suddenly hack the game to make a certain character way better? I'm sure lots of different people would like their mains improved.

This is basically the argument I was referring to but failed to express. Even if it really is only adding three separate characters to the game, people are gonna say it's not Brawl.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

First of all, my argument is only applied to the idea of being one of the pokemon and never switching.

@ Tien: If having three characters is an advantage then what is wrong with separating them? This removes the idea of pt being able to counter pick mid-match, and they could keep regular pt with the fatigue if people still want to play that way.

I am personally in favor of fixing any readily apparent mistake in the game. If there is one specific easy way to make a ****ty character better, and it can be proven that it would not make them broken, then yes we should work on doing that. PT happens to have a specific issue that can easily be solved, so why not do it. I have never looked at this issue as the need to make PT better, so much as the need for more options. Sheik and Zelda do not have to switch, why should PT? The only reason it's different is because Sakurai made it that way, and we all know he made some mistakes *cough* tripping *cough*...

Also if you are going to use Yoshi as an example (a lot of people love referencing his egg sheild), you must realize that while yeah yoshi cannot jump out of his shield, he also can't get shield poked- a significant advantage. I look at pt the same way, if you can counter pick mid-match -a significant advantage- then you should have fatigue to make up for that. If this is about give and take i completely understand, which is why I think getting rid of the whole thing entirely shouldn't be an issue; however if this is an issue of how brawl is meant to be played, I again will just say the word "tripping" and leave it at that.

 

[T-block]

You keep referencing tripping but they're actually different issues.

And as to

If there is one specific easy way to make a ****ty character better, and it can be proven that it would not make them broken, then yes we should work on doing that.

I will requote Tien

I didn't say Trainer would be broken either. I said he would be way way better (which he would) and it was a more significant change then you seem to think. And why should we suddenly hack the game to make a certain character way better? I'm sure lots of different people would like their mains improved.

 

[Steeler]

perhaps someday a new hack project focused around rebalancing characters and not changing the mechanics of the game could become a reality...

 

[Tien2500]

First of all, my argument is only applied to the idea of being one of the pokemon and never switching.

@ Tien: If having three characters is an advantage then what is wrong with separating them? This removes the idea of pt being able to counter pick mid-match, and they could keep regular pt with the fatigue if people still want to play that way.

I am personally in favor of fixing any readily apparent mistake in the game. If there is one specific easy way to make a ****ty character better, and it can be proven that it would not make them broken, then yes we should work on doing that. PT happens to have a specific issue that can easily be solved, so why not do it. I have never looked at this issue as the need to make PT better, so much as the need for more options. Sheik and Zelda do not have to switch, why should PT? The only reason it's different is because Sakurai made it that way, and we all know he made some mistakes *cough* tripping *cough*...

Also if you are going to use Yoshi as an example (a lot of people love referencing his egg sheild), you must realize that while yeah yoshi cannot jump out of his shield, he also can't get shield poked- a significant advantage. I look at pt the same way, if you can counter pick mid-match -a significant advantage- then you should have fatigue to make up for that. If this is about give and take i completely understand, which is why I think getting rid of the whole thing entirely shouldn't be an issue; however if this is an issue of how brawl is meant to be played, I again will just say the word "tripping" and leave it at that.

I didn't say ANYTHING about how brawl was meant to play. Strawman argument. Tripping is not a character speciffic issue. Its irrelevant.

Well if we keep "fixing" sucky characters then we have a constantly shifting metagame. We end up with several different versions of brawl with different dynamically changing matches and characters. For something like national or large scale tournaments you need a standardized metagame. The best candidate for a standardized version of brawl seems to be the original version. Its not because it posseses the sacred will of the developer, it is because it is the version that everyone has access to and a version that most people pretty much agree on. Plus we're trying to make everyone "balanced" which is impossible to get exactly right.

You can't keep regular PT and separated PT in the same game. You'd have to have two different versions of brawl running, hacked and unhacked. Then you would need to know *in advance* when someone is going to use trainer and which version of trainer, which character, or all three w/fatigue/force switching. If I decided I wanted to use Charizard and I'm on the wrong version of brawl it would involve starting the game over. Certainly not impossible but it seems like it would be enough of a pain to deter TOs from doing this.

@ Tblock. No way Squirtle is close to even with Snake. He has tons of range and can KO Squirtle at ridiculously low percentages with fresh Ftilt, or Utilt, or even his jab combo.

 

[T-block]

^Actually Brawl+ lets you choose PT or each pokemon separately, with disabled switching, so it should be possible to hack this into one version of Brawl.

Squirtle has one-frame jab and an f-tilt that clashes with Snake's moves, and if you get him into the air above you or off the stage you can easily tack on like 70%. Advantage Squirtle might be stretching it, especially since he has trouble getting the kill, but close to even is very reasonable.

 

[typh]

snake ***** squirtle

 

[T-block]

=(

10sadface

 

[Tien2500]

^Actually Brawl+ lets you choose PT or each pokemon separately, with disabled switching, so it should be possible to hack this into one version of Brawl.

Squirtle has one-frame jab and an f-tilt that clashes with Snake's moves, and if you get him into the air above you or off the stage you can easily tack on like 70%. Advantage Squirtle might be stretching it, especially since he has trouble getting the kill, but close to even is very reasonable.

Well that shuts me up about that then. But then Typh shut you up about the Snake Matchup so we're even ^_^. Snake KOs and outranges Squirtle so easily its hard to deal with. Taking Squirtle's KOing difficulty into account, his light weight, and fatigue and all. Ftilt and jab aren't quite enough and while Snake can be juggled 70% is an exaggeration.

 

[Toby.]

snake ***** squirtle

yeah.

uptilt says hi. so does ftilt. and nades. and everything else.

although its not as bad as ivysaur or charizard.

 

[T-block]

Yeah listen to Typh and tc lol

I've always used Squirtle the most against Snake...maybe I should start giving the other two more of a chance.

 

[Toby.]

No dont use ivy or zard!

squirtle is without a doubt the best option we have against snake. Ivysaur and zard get *****, hard.

Whilst snake has the advantage on squirtle, his matchups with the other two move straight past advantage and settle on LOL matchups.

 

[T-block]

oh gotcha. i totally misread what you said lol

anyways...

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

i still do not see that separating the pokemon is necessarily making pokemon trainer better, that is a highly debatable statement that would need to be proven. i have to believe that there are matchups where using just squirtle would not be as easy as using all three pokemon or two by quickly bypassing one of them, and the same for char and ivy. If anything a poll would need to be made to see if pokemon trainer mains would prefer being able to use just one pokemon.

 

[Tien2500]

i still do not see that separating the pokemon is necessarily making pokemon trainer better, that is a highly debatable statement that would need to be proven. i have to believe that there are matchups where using just squirtle would not be as easy as using all three pokemon or two by quickly bypassing one of them, and the same for char and ivy. If anything a poll would need to be made to see if pokemon trainer mains would prefer being able to use just one pokemon.

Well you said you thought you'd have a better chance with Squirtle. If you eliminated fatigue and forced switching BUT retained the ability to switch though they would definitely be way better. If someone can confirm that it'd be possible to have both (Seperate and combined+fatigue) in one game I'd have to reconsider. But then the question of hacking the game vs having a standard version still lurks.

Charizard is better than Squirtle against Snake. Flamethrower racks up a bunch of damage on him and limits Snakedashing, he lives decently long against Snake and can KO/gimp him fairly well. Grenades are move of a problem but speed helps. Is there some major flaw I'm missing?

As for Ivy I dunno. Razor leaf seems useful, and BS of course is a threat but Snake has attacks which count as fire. My Ivy isn't that good so I dunno how this matchup would be.

 

[Toby.]

Snake ***** charizard.

Due to charizards horrible backwards roll (it doesn't even get us behind snake) the opponent can EASILY dthrow tech chase us to kill percents from 0.

Massive hitbox makes grenades waay better at controlling the space. Snake also generally has better range, does more damage and lives longer.

Ivysaur is terrible as well.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

Well you said you thought you'd have a better chance with Squirtle. If you eliminated fatigue and forced switching BUT retained the ability to switch though they would definitely be way better. If someone can confirm that it'd be possible to have both (Seperate and combined+fatigue) in one game I'd have to reconsider. But then the question of hacking the game vs having a standard version still lurks.

Charizard is better than Squirtle against Snake. Flamethrower racks up a bunch of damage on him and limits Snakedashing, he lives decently long against Snake and can KO/gimp him fairly well. Grenades are move of a problem but speed helps. Is there some major flaw I'm missing?

As for Ivy I dunno. Razor leaf seems useful, and BS of course is a threat but Snake has attacks which count as fire. My Ivy isn't that good so I dunno how this matchup would be.

it is possible to have both versions, and more and more people who go to tournaments are getting their wiis hacked- I think its only a matter of time before we create a standard that we hold them all to.

I only believe that I would have a better chance personally because I hate ivysaur and would never want to use that character ever. It is really more of a matter of preference then anything else, I acknowledge that ivysaur does have some strengths that the others do not have, but regardless I would be more comfortable just using one of the other two. I see it as the same reason why other people pick their main characters, they do so because they like that one character better, not because it is necessarily better on the tier list. Otherwise everyone would play mk and thats it.

 

[Kage Me]

Well, if you don't like Ivysaur, what stops you from using only the other two? Just switch when the opportunity presents itself.

Sure, it's not very good Pokémon Training, but if you let that get into the way of the fun, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

ya but by the time i get to switch ive typically taken 30 damage to an entire stock. ivysaur's lack of horizontal air mobility, lack of quick or disruptive aerials and bad recovery do not make it easy to switch without getting hit. plus i would rather just not have to use charizard either, i mean i do not mind using him, i certainly do not think hes a bad character in the least but all the same i just want to use squirtle. its the same as a sheik main not wanting to use zelda or vice versa

 

[Vermy]

It is NOT the same as a Shiek and Zelda.
Fatigue and end of stock switching would like a word.
Pokemon Trainer was DESIGNED to play as all 3. Don't like it? Go play Brawl+. Ordinary brawl with hacks for individual pokemon will NEVER be allowed in tournaments. So if you wanna argue about the beurocracy of playing as PT, watch out cos' I'm gonna drop some knowledge.

You will NEVER be a good PT and NEVER rank well in tournamebts if you play as 1 or 2 of the pokemon. All 3 work as a unit. If you're in need of tip on how to be a better PT, id be glad to help. But if you're here to whine about the fact that you hate ivysaur, no sympathy here. Heard it all before.

And once you start getting GOOD with zard and ivy, things get easier. When you first pick up PT it goes like this,
Squirtle seems awesome.
Ivy seems....odd and a little fail.
Zard seems average but epic.

Ivy and Zard take work. Lots of work if they're gunna catch up to Squirtle. That's a part of the learning curve.
[/rant]

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

It is NOT the same as a Shiek and Zelda.
Fatigue and end of stock switching would like a word.
Pokemon Trainer was DESIGNED to play as all 3. Don't like it? Go play Brawl+. Ordinary brawl with hacks for individual pokemon will NEVER be allowed in tournaments. So if you wanna argue about the beurocracy of playing as PT, watch out cos' I'm gonna drop some knowledge.

You will NEVER be a good PT and NEVER rank well in tournamebts if you play as 1 or 2 of the pokemon. All 3 work as a unit. If you're in need of tip on how to be a better PT, id be glad to help. But if you're here to whine about the fact that you hate ivysaur, no sympathy here. Heard it all before.

And once you start getting GOOD with zard and ivy, things get easier. When you first pick up PT it goes like this,
Squirtle seems awesome.
Ivy seems....odd and a little fail.
Zard seems average but epic.

Ivy and Zard take work. Lots of work if they're gunna catch up to Squirtle. That's a part of the learning curve.
[/rant]

so im gonna go ahead and ignore your cocky know-it-all rant and assume you do not actually understand what you are talking about. OmegaBlackMage, number two in new england, whom I happen to have grown up with and goes to tournaments all the time was the one who told me that tournament hosts are thinking about allowing this hack, so stfu.

and if u read the rest of this thread, you will have notived that i continually have mentioned that the game was DESIGNED to have random tripping, something very few people agree should be in the game, so clearly the smash community agrees that there are instances where sakurai got it wrong and a little editing is necessary.

 

[Vermy]

Not talking about tripping. I never said anything about tripping. Talking about splitting one character into thirds. As for your initial response, you said they're THINKING about it. Good luck with that. Stage freezing is more likely to be allowed in Standard Tournaments. Splitting the pokemon up cuts a fine line into what is determined accepted hacks for tournaments. Soon, other mains will want hacks enabled for their characters, grab releases/CGs/infinites will be edited out and Brawl will be a completely different game...oh wait! There's already a project like that called BRAWL+. Once initial editing on the games mechanics starts, its no longer the original Brawl. If your city gets that action, great. But it'll never be widely accepted. And tournament results won't count. Just as banning MK tourneys don't count.

And if you read the second half of my post, I was trying to help. But if you wanna be stubborn and childish fine.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

I mentioned tripping because it is a part of brawl that most tournament players would like removed. Therefore it is shown that most tournament players agree that the original copy of brawl should be edited, making hacks an allowable idea. This does not reduce any character specific game mechanic, it simply makes one character's three forms into three separate playable characters. You are making it sound like we are changing the characters moves or something. They won't be any stronger they will just be separated. You will need the same amount of experience playing against them as you do for him now.

I do not present this argument thinking that everyone will want to do it or even like the idea. There are a ton of people on these boards who love the idea of using all three, and that option would be left in the game. This would give people who like pokemon trainer more options, not necessarily making them better separate than having them all together; that would need to be proven. And regardless, what does anyone have to fear from the three pokemon separated? It would be easier, cause you would get more experience against those pokemon separated and would learn more ideas to use against them. Having the ability to counterpick mid match is an enormous ability, making the fatigue necessary. Eliminating both makes the characters normal, just like all the others cept sheik IMO.

 

[SuSa]

Not talking about tripping. I never said anything about tripping. Talking about splitting one character into thirds. As for your initial response, you said they're THINKING about it. Good luck with that. Stage freezing is more likely to be allowed in Standard Tournaments. Splitting the pokemon up cuts a fine line into what is determined accepted hacks for tournaments. Soon, other mains will want hacks enabled for their characters, grab releases/CGs/infinites will be edited out and Brawl will be a completely different game...oh wait! There's already a project like that called BRAWL+. Once initial editing on the games mechanics starts, its no longer the original Brawl. If your city gets that action, great. But it'll never be widely accepted. And tournament results won't count. Just as banning MK tourneys don't count.

And if you read the second half of my post, I was trying to help. But if you wanna be stubborn and childish fine.

Explain how splitting a character that is forced to change and is the only character that is forced to change is going to lead to what you mentioned?

What if when Zelda died, she was forced to turn into Sheik? And vice-versa? Do you think that'd make her even worse of a character (both of them)? People would pretty much be forced to use both, or be willing to take damage (and at that, normally a large amount of damage - or if their opponents are IC's... hello free grab?) for switching.

Splitting up 3 characters (yes, I say 3 characters - because unless Sheik/Zelda count as 1 character (which they don't TBH. Seperate spot on tier list would like to talk to you) is nothing like anything you mentioned.

Differences between the Pokemon and Sheik/Zelda:
Pokemon are FORCED to switch+fatigue

Similarities:
All 5 characters have entire movesets that are unique except down-B transforms them.

Hell, if you were really planning on making PT have to play as all 3 characters. You would have given them all their own down-B, to not allow 'skipping' 1-2 of them. You would have removed Fatigue, and left in forced switching. Then what happens? They don't fatigue, you can't switch, and you are forced to switch. That would have been a far better option IMO.

Did they do that? No. So too bad.

What are you left with?

The absolute highest learning curve in the game (Please don't tell me any 1 character takes more skill then learning 3...), 2 Pokemon that arguably hold you back (most people 'specialize' in 1 and the other 2 are good/decent/bad) I feel there are few PT's who truly are good with all 3 Pokemon.

You cannot play longer then (is it 1 or 2?) minutes without your Pokemon becoming stupidly weaker. You know whats fun? Doing less damage, having less of an ability to KO, and not being able to down-B because you are afraid of taking a huge amount of damage or dying because of it. You simply do not have that option most of the time.

What happens when Squirtle and Charizard have a pretty good matchup with _____ but Ivysaur goes 25:75 or worse (this is all made up.. you can change all the pokemon names <_< and blah blah blah) and you end up losing simply because of that one horribly stupid matchup?

/stupid rant

tl;dr
How does splitting up 3 chars turn into doing stuff for other mains - without good arguments most likely? Or a good enough reason too? I see no harm in splitting up the Pokemon... Squirtle would probably be high tier, and Ivy/Char would be mid or lower... what's the issue with that? It's not like it's "buff metaknight more because the mains want it" <_<

 

[Steeler]

sakurai was pretty gay with pt and forcing you to use all three. the greatest example of this is that sheik/zelda can ****ing transform with invincibility on a fresh stock and keep invincibility after transforming for a guaranteed free switch (plus the ability to switch in the air)...and pt has to wait to switch until invincibility is over.

bull****

pt is still a pretty good character since you can get around this in a variety of ways...but still. giving the shelda switch mechanics to pt would have changed A LOT of things.