PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[_clinton]

For now, I ll move Lucario to 6-4.

Any other suggestions?

Um...yeah Lucario isn't 6-4...if anything the sway would be 55-45 anyway...Anyway...are we done with Snake? (I'm still 6-4)

 

[Cacti]

Well we didn't get any Snake mainers to come, but I'd say its 6-4.

 

[Uffe]

See, this is exactly why people shouldn't use matchup ratios.

Regardless of whether or not you rely on some mysterious number that indicates you have the advantage, if the person is better than you, you will lose.

Conversely, if said mysterious number calls the matchup impossible, and you are better than your opponent, you will win. A lot of times people post things like "Well, I thought it was 75:25, but after playing X, I'm not sure..." It's like they're proving that matchup ratios are meaningless but not realizing it. One ratio can't account for every single player of that character in the world... Some you can handle with ease, while others will simply be better players. 'Tis a fact of life Smash.

Actually, Dawei is really good. Better than me, actually. And I doubt it was an off day, because nobody does really good on an off day. His Lucario gave me a tough time, but it wasn't something that couldn't handled, fortunately. It'd get really close but I'd end up winning and that was more than he actually defeated me. Of course after awhile he used his Wario against me and I found out some new tricks from Wario.

As for this match up versus Ness, I thought it was quite obvious that this match up is 60:40 of not 65:35. Anyway, my thoughts on Lucario are probably 55:45 his favor. Same with Samus, too. Also, really quick. If you can grab Snake off the edge and he tries to use his C4 to come back up, you can spike him OR you can PK Flash him! >:D

 

[Wave⁂]

As for this match up versus Ness, I thought it was quite obvious that this match up is 60:40 of not 65:35. Anyway, my thoughts on Lucario are probably 55:45 his favor. Same with Samus, too. Also, really quick. If you can grab Snake off the edge and he tries to use his C4 to come back up, you can spike him OR you can PK Flash him! >:D

Fully charged PK Flash? I dunno, I'd rather stick with the good ol' dair.

 

[Uffe]

Fully charged PK Flash? I dunno, I'd rather stick with the good ol' dair.

While dair sounds like a better idea, Snake still has the ability to uair.

 

[Brinzy]

See, this is exactly why people shouldn't use matchup ratios.

Regardless of whether or not you rely on some mysterious number that indicates you have the advantage, if the person is better than you, you will lose.

Conversely, if said mysterious number calls the matchup impossible, and you are better than your opponent, you will win. A lot of times people post things like "Well, I thought it was 75:25, but after playing X, I'm not sure..." It's like they're proving that matchup ratios are meaningless but not realizing it. One ratio can't account for every single player of that character in the world... Some you can handle with ease, while others will simply be better players. 'Tis a fact of life Smash.

This is not necessarily true. You have to be playing someone on an incredibly inferior level for you to win a match-up that's strongly in their favor, as far as Brawl is concerned. If, say, I'm worse than you but I use Sheik, I'm not doomed to lose. EB360, a better Ness than I could ever hope to be, can potentially lose to my Ness.

Match-up ratios are for matches between players of even skill. They are accurate in that respect, but if you're playing someone of a different skill level, then it can force a different outcome several times.

 

[PK-ow!]

This is not necessarily true. You have to be playing someone on an incredibly inferior level for you to win a match-up that's strongly in their favor, as far as Brawl is concerned. If, say, I'm worse than you but I use Sheik, I'm not doomed to lose. EB360, a better Ness than I could ever hope to be, can potentially lose to my Ness.

Match-up ratios are for matches between players of even skill. They are accurate in that respect, but if you're playing someone of a different skill level, then it can force a different outcome several times.

There's at least one additional factor to this, and that is that it assumes you're already at a threshold of high-level play anyway.

For example, Ganondorf has a 5-95 matchup with ICe Climbers. It is unwinnable. We are correct in saying it is unwinnable. However, it still means nothing if your opponent can't chain grab. If you are both at equal skill, but at the part where you just don't have stomp / dtilt spacing down, while he doesn't have even a 0-40, you can way more likely win.


In short, the difference of learning curve between characters also comes into importance. If - just for example, I'm not claiming this, it's just for example - Meta Knight were so easy a chimp could spam with him, then yes, an amateur could beat a professional (if we think of there being master, grandmaster, and M2K" above that), or a noob could beat an amateur. Which you said.

But meanwhile, a character like Diddy, who I'm quite certain doesn't come online without much time and practice put into the banana minigame strategy, will show a sharper drop-off in how two players of equal but low skill can square off. An amateur and another amateur in a half Diddy game, might find the Diddy - if we assume Diddy is lackluster sans banana, which again I don't know or claim - side to by systematically disadvantaged.

This is of course the very trick of calling matchup ratios, because it's all quite possible that, even the popular, even the consensual statement of the match breakdown, is merely at too low a level to say how the matchup works. This is why popular agreement carries no weight (making many posts in matchup threads technically spam), and why we must acknowledge that the best we can do - which is consensus in a subcommunity recognized as our elite - is just that: The best we can do to talk about the matchup ratio as it appears in the sum of our knowledge of the meta so far.

 

[thesage]

Diddy is a pretty easy character to learn lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

banana minigame

LOL!

 

[Eagleye893]

I would make some changes to the matchup list above also.
Wolf goes into heavy disadvantage.
MK also.
Squirtle to neutral.
Sheik to slight disadvantage
Snake also.
G&W to average disadvantage.
Charizard to heavy disadvantage.
Sonic, Lucario, and Icys to slight advantage.

I have some questions too. Why is ZSS a disadvanatge, and why are Wario and ROB so low?

I agree with most of you're ideas. MK is something that i might disagree with though. i really don't find any problems against him, even if he's "god tier" all up there by himself. maybe slight disadvantage for me, because if you can cause them to mess up, they're done for. all it takes is a short amount of time to pull off a good attack (keeping in mind MK is faster in most aspects).
I really have no clue about charizard because i haven't played a good PT, but everything else is agreeable. ROB annoys the **** out of me, but wario should be pretty even.
Snake... bat is the answer, even for his mortar slide. if you can hit him at just the right time (takes Uber skills) you can inflict serious pain on him. Then again, don't bat the grenade. all you have to do is make sure you aren't in range of the tilts and you should be fine.

 

[FuPoo]

bleh snake. one of the characters i really havent had much training agaisnt. i know what the charcater can do, but ive never really faced a good/crazy snake player... until this weekend in this tournament in mexico where i lost agaisnt a snake. i didnt know what was happening around me.

BOOM BOOM BOOM

 

[PKNintendo]

If I recall correctly, the only thing grab release related crap Snake had was grab release Ftilt.

Am I correct?

 

[_clinton]

If I recall correctly, the only thing grab release related crap Snake had was grab release Ftilt.

Am I correct?

Well...Utilt comes out on frame 6...

 

[Uffe]

Snake has a grab release on Ness? I some how doubt that.

 

[madNESS67]

Do any of you have suggestions between the matchup of Ness v. Wario? What I'm having trouble with is his grab realeses and his major DI, I really don't know how to approach it. I'm a Ness player obviously and I think I'm decent, the highest I have gotten at a tourny was 4th at a play and trade in Cali, I was matched up against a MK player and I was Ness, his name is Nova and he played a pretty decent MK, I lost because of a poorly positioned PK Thunder and I SD. If you have any suggestions for me they would be highly appreciated, I'm new to the Brawl community so any suggestions would be fine. Thank you very much!!!!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hey guys, just posting because I need some confirmation on the Peach vs Ness match up numbers

Provided the majority agree, I'm putting this at 55-45 in Peach's favour. If you have any problems with this, please post in the Peach Boards match up thread. It's stickied so you shouldn't have too much difficult finding it

 

[smashkng]

How can DK only be slight counter? He is able to cargo infinite Ness.

 

[:mad:]

We tend to forget about infinites...
Or not address them at all.

 

[Popertop]

This is not necessarily true. You have to be playing someone on an incredibly inferior level for you to win a match-up that's strongly in their favor, as far as Brawl is concerned. If, say, I'm worse than you but I use Sheik, I'm not doomed to lose. EB360, a better Ness than I could ever hope to be, can potentially lose to my Ness.

Match-up ratios are for matches between players of even skill. They are accurate in that respect, but if you're playing someone of a different skill level, then it can force a different outcome several times.

a matchup ratio is how often each character will win with two players of equal skill playing at the highest level the game offers.

 

[Brinzy]

That is also not true for a game like Smash. It works for most other games, but not really Smash.

Marth vs. Ness is a 70:30 in Marth's favor. This does not mean that a Ness will likely win 3 out of 10 games or 30 out of 100. That Ness is probably going ti win a lot less because he is strongly disadvantaged in every match-up.

If I try to run a race in high heels, and you run in running shoes, and we run the same speed and distance barefoot, you're going to win every single run, because while we can run the same speed, the advantages of running shoes compared to high heels (being designed to run, comfortable, less dangerous to run in, not laggy, etc.) strongly outweighs the advantage that high heels have to running shoes (looking prettier). It would not be a 100-0 in your favor because I still possess the skill to potentially beat you. It would be more like an 80:20 or even a 70:30. However, you will win because we run at an even speed barefoot. However, you are still going to win all of them because, barring something like you breaking your foot, you are not being slowed down.

The only way I could beat you is if I ran twice as fast as you when barefoot (or just flat out faster, doesn't have to be twice as much). However, running shoes will always be better for running than high heels. That is the message I attempted to convey where you quoted me.

It works in other games because they're far more balanced out. So, it'd probably be more like you in running shoes and me in casual dress shoes. It does not work for smash because you don't have a set bar of health to work with, and one of the things about smash is that you take multiple lives off at any %. Ness would not win 3 out of 10 times vs. Marth because he will always share those huge disadvantages. Try... 1 out of 10 times, if that.

 

[_clinton]

My main problem with your rebuttal SoR is that Ness vs. Marth isn't 7:3 Marth IMO...but whatever...

 

[Uffe]

@ Rickerdy-doo-da-day: I want to say that it's an even match up, but whatever. If it's in her favor by the slightest, it wouldn't really bother me. I'm not sure about other Ness mains.

How can DK only be slight counter? He is able to cargo infinite Ness.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't anybody just hold up on the analog and have an easier time getting free?

 

[Brinzy]

My main problem with your rebuttal SoR is that Ness vs. Marth isn't 7:3 Marth IMO...but whatever...

Aside from range, tipper, grab-release, etc. stuff, I think Marth is also pretty safe on block against Ness, and while he does have some moves that are safe on block against most characters, Ness getting pushed back even just a little is pretty much making Marth safe on block. I need to check frame data, but Dash Attack seems like the quickest option Ness can do to reach Marth (or maybe it's fair), but I'm kinda doubtful.

Should we play sooner or later? I don't play Marth, but I do want to at least demonstrate what I mean.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can't anybody just hold up on the analog and have an easier time getting free?

I'm not sure what he means by "cargo-infinite." That sounds like Ness can break free from the cargo quickly by holding up but he can still get regrabbed, which I guess isn't really an infinite because Ness is being pushed towards the stage, iirc.

 

[Uffe]

I'd test it myself, but since I lack a working Wii, I'm unable to really do anything. I do remember Jingo Joe doing an infinite on me like that, but it was more of a grab release. He never intended to try and cargo spike me. Even so, I don't think a grab release should suddenly change a match up, otherwise Marth vs Ness would be 100:0.

 

[jorge199494]

i thought that we are talking about snake i guess itz done

 

[_clinton]

Should we play sooner or later? I don't play Marth, but I do want to at least demonstrate what I mean.

Sure...I'm up for some love

 

[MrEh]

Bowser boards are now discussing Ness.

Any input would be appriciated.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Don't take this as if I'm generalizing, I'll just provide my feedback on Ness VS Snake.

I have a friend who's deadly with Snake. When I went all out with my main, ROB, matches were almost even, but he eventually won always.

One time, I decided to loosen up and use secondaries, so I picked Ness my 3rd-4th character (always used him). It was a crushing defeat for him, and I wasn't even playing seriously. His spiking destroys Snake's recovery, and the dtilt is faster than Snake's close ranged moves. I was knocked around a bit in general, but I wiped the floor with him. And I mean perhaps the 2nd best Snake I've ever faced.

Just a +1 for Ness.

 

[Brinzy]

Snake is ridiculous against Ness. I refuse to play this match-up.

 

[PMKNG]

snake is a pretty bad matchup imo.

Seems harder to me than mk in general, idk but thats how i feel.

and shinhed, is it possible that you know how your friend plays, and is easier suited to take on his playstyle with ness?
Cause I have that with my cousin, I can beat him with ness, but cause I know how he plays subconciously, though he does better than me in tourney matches so :s

 

[kennypu]

snake is really hard to play with ness, especially if they know how to fight ness's.
o good snake players get out of pk fire easily by taking out a nade while on fire
o most of their moves out prioritize most of ness's moves
o the nades are gay
a knowledge i can say is, always go for the cypher glitch, unless you know you'll get punished for it, and if they are high percentage, and they are on their cypher, watch for pk thunder kills(if they go very high).
Another thing I noticed is if they are the type that spam nades, just pkt straight at them when they take out a nade. the nade will take out the pkt, but not explode, getting in their way most of the time.

 

[_clinton]

If there is one thing I know about this match up...its that things can go one way for the other pretty well...because Ness can cling to Snake pretty well and rack up damage if given a chance...which makes me think the match is about even...which must make you guys think I'm crazy...

But Snake also kills Ness IMO overall if given the chance...as he has pretty effective ways at racking up % as well...

Still though...good Snake are pretty ****ing insane to fight and you don't want to trade hits with him (because A. He lives longer, B. He does more damage overall per hit, and C. because he isn't lacking in KO power)

However, it is nice to note that Ness does have answers for a lot of Snake's tools that can turn the tide pretty well...

 

[jorge199494]

snake..... ftilt
nuff said

 

[Jtails]

diddy vs ness id say is even,
as for snake he has grab release to utilt... which is the only thing that "tilts" the match in his favor.

 

[jorge199494]

Also juggle him.

 

[Jtails]

whilst holding a banana ness can DJC throw down and upair and grab or utilt.
its not too bad a match.

 

[smash64]

you must play close range to beat a snake thats how i do it

 

[AvariceX]

^Do the Snakes you play not use utilt? Or grab release shenanigans for that matter?

The only good Snake I've actually played is Ally, and for some reason I play him a lot... so it could just be a lot different for me but I've found the only way to have a hope at winning (or rather, coming close to winning but still losing because it is Ally after all) is to keep my distance and try what I can to bait out anything I can punish.

I guess you'll be playing Ally now too though, so let me know how you do against him .

 

[smash64]

when i say play snakes close range i mean spam nutral A and foward A try it also try staying off the ground lol

 

[AvariceX]

I very rarely touch the ground when playing Snake unless I'm going for a jab or grab (or maybe utilt). Even when he's not near me I'll randomly do empty short hops to try to bait something. uair is great against Snake if you can get him above you (for the same reason MK's uair is so good against him; he doesn't have a good answer for it), fair is good but sometimes you'll hit a grenade shield, nair is too good no matter who you're playing. Dair and bair are really risky when he's on the ground (you'll probably get shield-grabbed), but dair is really good off-stage as long as you avoid Snake's nair.

I'm convinced that Ness needs platforms to fight Snake. Having Snake on a platform above you is the best position you can be in for this matchup. Also with platforms PKT is amazing but without platforms it's almost useless against Snake.