Pit Matchup Discussion - Metaknight

[Coffee™]

MK

Metaknight



Pros and Cons Of Metaknight .

Pros

Pros:
- Great recovery
- Fast ground movement
- Very little lag of any kind
- Multiple approaches
- No unwinnable matchups
- Can win with pure aggression
- Gimps the majority of the cast
- Controls the stage nicely
- All B moves can be used as recoveries
- Very small target
- Quickly racks damage
- Punishes easily

Cons

Cons:
- Lightweight
- No projectile
- Per attack, deals very little damage
- Crouch is next to worthless
- All B moves put him in freefall

Discuss!!!

 

[Admiral Pit]

He's the cheapest of the cheap, and there's nothing much we can do.
Tornado negates our arrows (unless we hit him from above), he outranges us so much. The only grand defense we have is Mirror Shield against Tornado, Drill Rush, and Shuttle Loop recoveries. Even so, recent Metaknights are even learning ways to avoid our defenses.

 

[DominusHaven]

Meta Knight is such a really annoying Match up. He has more range, more speed, and even more killing power potentially due to his Gimping abilities. Most Pit users have to play really smart and waiting for a blind spot, taking Shield gimps whenever you can predict his recovery, having to spam arrows constantly throughout the battles, Timing Blocks so we can get out our fastest attacks to take that very little lag he leaves in some of his attacks, and having to potentially space away from all of his deadly combos. Pit's also have to make sure they don't get gimped by Meta Knight, and all around he is just better than Pit in close combat, approaching, grabs, anything! its a 70-30 Match up, but if the Pit user plays smart, predicts dodges, takes every opportunity he has to strike, Grabs when Meta Knight expects a strike, and keep him from doing any of his killing moves and predict his recovery at certain points when we can do something about it, It is still possible, although very hard. We have to just be the much smarter opponent, because even dumb Meta Knights can take advantage of their cheapness to overwhelm us.

 

[KY_Des]

That picture's epic. Hella saved it lol.

 

[rinoH]

Tornado spam and many other annoying things destroy pit

 

[Kyuubi9t]

...i dont wana talk about it. lets get some MKs in here to tell us why we are such an easy target.

edit: i called for help!! hopefully we get some good seasoned MKs and no arguments lol

 

[Kamikaze*]

What I hate as an MK main is when a pit baits my nado with arrows and then the pit perfect shields and punishes.


This may not always work but it's worth a try.

 

[Tipzntrix]

You can mirror shield a tornado approach if it's obvious, but beware he can roll back into you again. Mirror shielding it twice is really funny and also leaves MK open XD.

Also I woudl say Meta knight has more killing power period with Dsmash, Up+B, as well as Fsmash when landed.

 

[Ryos4]

For metaknight, i like to use the Angel rings as a defensive move, well at least in the air. Meta's tend to like to get really close in the air, and the angel rings prevent him from doing that, just dont press B more then once or he will be able to get around it before u can move.

His glide attack is really strong killing move too. Not to mention he can go from a glide attack directly into a dsmash. Pit can do similar things, but not nearly as fast as meta.

Also his double shutter loop recovery can be a pain, the figure 8 one. You can reflect it, but it just sends him back to the ledge so whats the point. lol.
I even reflected him twice in a row for this match, did it help, noo.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG9rhe5hs5U&feature=channel_page

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

This match up is toward MK. His aerial game beats you unless you are below him and his ground game is faster and more ranged then yours. Arrows don't do a thing because he can choose to approach with tornado... He is also the only character that can freely follow Pit's WoI even under the stage to gimp without getting SDed himself...

 

[MrEh]

He is also the only character that can freely follow Pit's WoI even under the stage to gimp without getting SDed himself...

ROB and Jigglypuff say otherwise.

 

[Valuno]

MK is basically like Pit, without a projectile but better in basically every other regard. It's sort of like Mk vs Marth, except Marth has it better than Pit. MK beats Pit up close and offstage....

I would say spam arrows as much as possible, but MK's tornado gets past them soooo easily.... Use them only when at a safe distance. Punishing the tornado isn't always easy, a lot of MK players make it easy and just tornado into your shield and just stay there. In that case it's easy to punish. But recently, the MKs I've been playing use the tornado to hit a bit of my shield, and then land from a certain height to land laglessly.... so when I try to punish I eat a dsmash. You really have to look and see if it's safe or not to punish, but definitely keep your shield up!

Mirror shield is helpful as people have said before, but really, it's extremely difficult to use effectively imo... For one, you have to predict which recovery they're using and intercept it, two you have to time it right, and three you have to space it correctly. This is just me, but I find it incredibly difficult mirroring his recovery, but of course that's different for everyone. For me, I just find myself killing with fsmash for the majority.

The close range moves I find myself using most against MK: fair, dtilt, ftilt, and dair. The first three because they generally have the same range as MK's opposing moves. Then dair because a lot of MKs simply run into it.... ^_^

So yeah... I don't really have anything else..... 65 - 35 MK's favor imo.

 

[rinoH]

wow your first post

 

[Hayang]

Val posted omg!

I think D-tilt is probably one of your most crucial moves here. You need range and speed and dtilt is a good option when MK is in range.

Throw out your mirror shield if he gets predictable with Up-B and other B recoveries. Don't be predictable with it, though. You want to catch him by surprise.

Ledge camping can be a good brick wall against MKs who don't know how to deal with it. Whether you do it once in a while or make it the whole of your game (See: Danny vs Afro Thundah) is up to you but keep it in mind.

BTW since when did pit have red hair?

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

ROB and Jigglypuff say otherwise.

It would be very risky for jigglypuff to try gimping like that since she only gets jumps making her easy to stagespike kill. ROB may be a good gimper but he can't really chase Pit's WoI with his slow burner...

 

[Ryos4]

He doesnt need to chase pit down, he can just jump down and shoot you, in fact so can falco, ive had it done to me before.

 

[MrEh]

It would be very risky for jigglypuff to try gimping like that since she only gets jumps making her easy to stagespike kill.

Pound beats everything. No lie.


Really, flying under the stage is silly against Meta. As you know, it's hilarious more then anything. Therefore, don't do it.

 

[NinjaMeepit]

Pound beats everything. No lie.


Really, flying under the stage is silly against Meta. As you know, it's hilarious more then anything. Therefore, don't do it.

Well, it would be ridiculous to go under the stage as Jigglypuff and try to gimp Pit during his WoI. First, Jiggly. prob. wouldn't be able to catch up to Pit, and her pound doesn't have enough range for her to make up for that... Prove me wrong.

 

[MrEh]

First, Jiggly. prob. wouldn't be able to catch up to Pit

Jiggs has the 2nd fastest aerial movement speed in the game. She outspeeds the WoI. That is a fact.

 

[Hayang]

How is flying under the stage silly against meta? Like practically all recoveries, it is gimpable to some extent, and moreso with metaknight, but its a valuable option when he is recovering on stages where its possible.

MK would usually be putting himself at risk if he were to try and follow pit all the way underneath the stage unless you can go through the main platform. MK has no projectile like ROB does, and is slow in the air. MK's jumps are slower than both pit's glide and his WoI, and after the jumps it probably wont even be clear whether MK will make it to the other ledge or not since he will either be forced to drill rush or shuttle loop, and once pit reaches the ledge, drill rush and shuttle loop will barely make it unless the stage is very small, and even so, upon landing he will probably be in a position where pit can uair through the stage. MK will not glide with Pit under the stage because that never happens.

The best thing MK can do against a Pit that prudently goes under the stage is rush to the other side and try and drop down to dair. There's something that works once in a while, but even so it should not happen to pit unless he gets very predictable with his method of recovery and movement (MK needs to know which ledge pit is going for, and pit can fake him out).

Jigglypuff is not fast enough, period. Accelerated WoI is faster than jiggs' pound and airspeed. She's fast, whoop de doo. Not enough to catch up to WoI, unless she predicts the maneuver and gets a head start or is right on top of pit, which is a situation that should not happen, as I addressed before. If anything, Pit will almost always have at least a half second of advantage. If he does not he is either stupid and should not have gone under the stage or has become waaay to predictable.

Glide is too fast for jiggs, and most of the time Pit will be gliding. No argument there.

...and MrEh if youre going to post here can you at least say something that helps us with the matchup?

 

[MrEh]

How is flying under the stage silly against meta?

Meta runs fast. You fly under with WoI, he beats you to the other side by running, not by chasing Pit down with jumps. He drops down, uses a reverse Loop or Dair.

Jigglypuff is not fast enough, period. WoI and glide are faster than jiggs' pound and airspeed. She's fast, whoop de doo. Not enough to catch up to WoI, unless she predicts the maneuver and gets a head start, which i addressed before.

Pound was really meant to be used on Pit while meeting him dead on, not while chasing him down. If chasing him down, just start jumping and using Fairs. It's not unrealistic to catch Pit with Jigglypuff.

Glide is too fast for jiggs. No argument there.

I was talking about WoI, not the glide.

...and MrEh if youre going to post here can you at least say something that helps us with the matchup?

I did help. I said it was useless. Har har.


In all seriousness though, don't use it too much. If they read you, you're dead.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Ahem, this is Pit vs Meta, not no Puffball. Stay on topic.

 

[Hayang]

Pound was really meant to be used on Pit while meeting him dead on, not while chasing him down. If chasing him down, just start jumping and using Fairs. It's not unrealistic to catch Pit with Jigglypuff.

Try letting jiggs and pit come down from one ledge and get to the other side. Jumping Fairs or Pound, Pit's WoI gets there much faster.

Now for Pit vs MK?

Meta runs fast. You fly under with WoI, he beats you to the other side by running, not by chasing Pit down with jumps. He drops down, uses a reverse Loop or Dair.

Yes, this is possible, I just said so. Reverse SL im not so sure of, but dair is good. But pit can stall at the lip for a second and sweetspot the ledge since WoI sweetspots very easily, and also MK needs to know where pit is going and therefore...

In all seriousness though, don't use it too much. If they read you, you're dead.

As with almost everything brawl-related, this is obviously true. I also mentioned this in my previous post. Again, fake them out because if MK has to pivot his dash you will probably get to the ledge with the extra time.

My point in all of this is that going under the stage is fine against MK. Do it when you see it fit and when other recovery options look bad, and don't be predictable. Pit has good options on the ledge and you can use his under-stage recovery to set up for some ledge games.

 

[DominusHaven]

Hmm... For some Metas as well when they are off the stage, obviously try to arrow gimp him, racking up damage and trying to slow down his recovery, Then if they choose to use the *****-nado or Shuttle Gay for recovery, You can attempt to shield him, of course some will be too smart to fall for this all the time, but its a nice try nonetheless.

If you predict the Meta Knight wisely, space with F-tilts since Its Pits best choice for range in most cases, although it is slow, if you think while using it you should be able to pull off a quick attack and can think of your next move.

Projectile spacing is something you have to do against Meta Knight, whether his tornado can get through the arrows or not, they are a necessity against The Purple Skittle and keeps you from getting wiped out by his tremendous speed approach.

Hayang is right, D-tilt is a fast attack and is useful at times against Meta knight, the fact that it also knocks people up makes it possible to avoid possible counter-attacks.

Pit's F-Throw usually connects with the F-Tilt or F-Smash, maybe even another F-throw so thats a nice beginning start for damage.

In the air Pit is usually screwed, your best attack against Mk surprisingly is the U-Air, which has great Priority when he is coming down or doing a glide, and the B-air is your best bet for Kills at low damages to take advantage of the fact that he is going to be doing a lot more hitting then you..

Going back to the arrows, after about 2 or 3 the Mk is going to break through with the *****-nado, so be prepared for a lot of blocking during this match, of course he is going to do his grab and grab combos as well, so spot-dodge and do your A combo during this.

Your A combo is a valuable resource against Mk speaking of which, Jab canceled grabs (very few given Mk's speed), and the triple a Combo is fast enough to counter and knocks him back far enough to be safe after.

The Angel Ring is also a useful damage racker, but only when used right, be warned it leaves great weakness in the wrong hands.

Save your F-Smash and other kill moves for the killing strike, we all want the masked skittle to die as soon as possible...

Pit can get gimped against Mk easy if not smart about it, So you can try to glide, mix it in with the Up B to confuse him, Do pretty much what Hayang said, be unpredictable and I doubt you'll get gimped easy.

So yeah.. those were a few more thoughts about the match-up I guess.

Its probably 70:30 in Meta Knight's favor.

 

[Tipzntrix]

Note that pit has no aerial to cut through a charging tornado. Some say dair can cut tornado if you are on top of MK but I haven't seen it work yet. On the ground, you can cut through tornado with fTilt and dSmash. If you try and tipper your fTilt you will not cut through tornado and it will break trhough to you, however. You need to hit near to the hilt of your blades, which is really tough when he comes in so quickly. Dmash, though it seems to have less range, seems more reliable for me.

 

[cj.Shark]

actually pit has no moves besides f-tilt that goes through nado. a few of them cancel each other out though.

 

[yummynbeefy]

yea mks are a real pain but my friend ace hes a mk main and me as a pit main can usually do alright agenst him
id say 60-40 to about 70-30 mk definately has the edge

 

[Tipzntrix]

actually pit has no moves besides f-tilt that goes through nado. a few of them cancel each other out though.

Just try Dsmashing tornado when it comes. if you actually hit MK himself it should break and cause MK knockback and damage. It's worked more consistently than ftiult for me.

 

[Deoxys]

The only grand defense we have is Mirror Shield against Tornado, Drill Rush, and Shuttle Loop recoveries. Even so, recent Metaknights are even learning ways to avoid our defenses.

Does Mirror Shield turn MK around if he flies into it with a GA (glide attack)?

Pit should make use of his Ring wavebounce in this matchup.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Mirror shield will reflect any attack that makes contact with it as long as the hitbox hits the shield only and not Pit. This would be pretty hard against glide attack since they can change its trajectory fairly quickly making it hard to aim the mirror. F-tilting would be better to block tornado than a downsmash because it has longer range, it has a longer duration where the hitbox is out and it covers what is in front of you. Downsmash hits too low most of the time to actually come in contact with the tornado despite the fact that it comes out a lot faster. For the ground game, using Pit's faster moves instead of his slower moves like forward smash and d-tilt. Jabs and angel ring prevent most of MK's ground based approaches since Angel ring is a wall of hit boxes and jabs come out very quickly and punishes any shielding while being able to be followed up with AR if they shield dodge out. In the air, aim to be below MK and use Nair and Uair a lot since fair is outranged and dair is too slow to counter MK's faster attacks. Using bair is also very good because it still has a lingering hitbox when the sweetspot is finished making it hard for MK to punish.

 

[TKD]

The fact that Meta Knight is lightweight is not a weakness because of his extremely fast upair, which allows the quickest momentum reduction in the game, and the fact that Pit does not have vertical KO moves.

The most I've seen Pit do against Meta Knight is edge camping upairs, which is not nice and forces Pit to attempt a risky recovery if hit during it. Besides that, he has a decent damage output, but so does MK. Pit is outranged by some moves, and Mach Tornado hits him during ANY MOVE he performs. Otherwise you could shield it but Pit is too slow to punish if the other player moves away.

Power-Mirror Shielding MK's recovery moves can be nasty for Meta Knight. MK players love to Drill Rush into the edge since it's MK's best recovery move, and they love to Mach Tornado from the edge, which gives you a cue to Mirror Shield and make him self-destruct, but I'm not sure if Mirror Shield gives the opponent enough momentum for them to actually be unable to recover from it. I don't know about this but it may work.

Even if Mirror Shield works though, your opponent can avoid performing risky recovery moves near the edge after falling for it once.

I'm not sure how bad this matchup is, but it is most likely a very bad one, since I consider it one of MK's best matchups.

Hmm... For some Metas as well when they are off the stage, obviously try to arrow gimp him, racking up damage and trying to slow down his recovery

Imagine if arrows gimped hahaha "BOOM!! Aghh freaking arrows! Why do they spike!?"

 

[SSD]

Imagine if arrows gimped hahaha "BOOM!! Aghh freaking arrows! Why do they spike!?"

I don't think you know what the word gimp means...

 

[KY_Des]

Gimp - Preventing your opponent from recovering. Gimps don't actually kill you. They cause you to be out of jumps when you're out of recovery range, therefore leaving you with no choice but to slowly fall to your death.

And arrows do kill, they just dont spike lol.

 

[Coffee™]

Are we done here?

 

[CorruptFate]

...I hate MK so much when ever I am against one I pick my ROB or diddy, so my advice for using Pit isn't the best, but ill give it a try. Mirror shield should be a good move in this fight if you can get good with it, all of MK's B moves send him into free fall because they all can be used to recover. Now if you can mirror shield them when he uses them to recover you should turn him around and he wont be able to get back (Save for his Down B it can't be turned around by the mirror shield). I know this isn't really helpful advice as you should know this by now.

*Don't arrow, he is to fast and small for it to really help
*Spacing is key, he is faster then you in attack and move speed so if your spacing is off even slightly you will get hit
*Know how to block this Nado and other spammed attack (not really Pit advice but still needed)
*Don't let your shield break, but you should use it alot in this fight.

 

[Doctor X]

Dash attack is one of your more reliable kill moves here, believe it or not. Sure, you need a lot of damage usually, but it can punish MK's stuff pretty well, especially tornadoes and on-stage shuttle loops (just wait until right before he lands). On Halberd it will kill him at 120-130 or so, which isn't that bad considering.

One really important thing I've learned-- Do not glide to the near edge to recover. A reverse shuttle loop will kill you at like 50%. You cannot airdodge if you're gliding and cancelling the glide takes too much time. He will not miss unless he sucks.

If you must use your glide, use it really high and end it above the stage, or dive really low (I mean, really low, generally as low as you possibly can) so he can't dair you and go the opposite edge. Get to it as fast as you can once you're under. He will not give you time to mess around down there. You can also try to end it by pulling up way before you get anywhere near the stage, which makes it none too helpful usually, but as long as never try to cancel it by glide attacking or grabbing the near edge you should be okay.

When you learn some of this really essential stuff, I think this is actually a relatively even matchup on most stages. I give MK the advantage as usual, but not by nearly as much as a lot of people would think. Just don't let him take you to Yoshi's Island or god forbid Luigi's Mansion. That **** will get you messed up pretty quick.

 

[Admiral Pit]

YI isnt the only bad stage around. If you think Shy Guys blocking our arrows were bad enough, you'd mostly be screwed if a MK takes u to the Mansion. He can use the ceilings to his advantage, spam Tornado, and you cant tech off the ceiling (or floor) without getting sucked into another tornado. I faced such a horrible situation like this before.
By using those little damagable pilliars on the bottom, he (and you) can slightly extend the hitbox of your moves, so try to be careful if the MK is doin Dsmash or Fsmash.

Identical to Kirby's U-throw, MK's gay U-throw will take u to the highest available platform point, allowing him to KO u quicker as well, when the Mansion is in tact.
I swear, MK is so cheap and broken, we rarely have options against him. He even takes advantage of Norfair (one of our best CPs and stages overall) and can be used against us at times.

Mirror Shield would be my only official defense against 3 of his possible recovery options: Tornado, Drill Rush, and Shuttle Loop (4 if you count him using glide attack towards u). Just trying to guess which 1 a Meta will do and time the Mirror Shield is bad enough.

 

[Doctor X]

YI isnt the only bad stage around. If you think Shy Guys blocking our arrows were bad enough, you'd mostly be screwed if a MK takes u to the Mansion.

That's not why YI is terrible for this matchup. Close side boundaries mean shuttle loop is death at ridiculously low damages and because you can't go under the edge even slightly it can be very difficult to avoid.

Plus if you have to WoI to recover you're just freaking dead.

He can use the ceilings to his advantage, spam Tornado, and you cant tech off the ceiling (or floor) without getting sucked into another tornado. I faced such a horrible situation like this before.

Future reference for this-- do not tech. Let him bounce you into the ground then hit A. Get-up attacks are invincible and will hit him out of the tornado.

I'm not saying LM is a good stage for this at all, really. I just think I'm a bit misunderstood here.

 

[DominusHaven]

Are we done here?

I think we are, if you can pull off enough viable information from this thread, I think we are about finished lol.

 

[Bomber7]

Hey guys, if it's ok with you. I want to make the next discussion thread for Pit. IF its ok I'm going to do Pokemon Trainer. I'll make the thread organised, and get the following info

Synopsis of match up
Favoring Ratio
Stages:
-conter picks
-bans