Pirate Ship: how to abuse the stage and why it should be banned

[Sucumbio]

Care to elaborate?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

No, not particularly, though I can give you the simplified explanation that Water Camping is extremely effective for some characters that their matchups on this stage is overwhelmingly good; So good in fact that the best route is to ban it. For a quick example, G&W vs Falco on Pirate Ship is as skewed as something like G&W vs Ganon on RC, and it's not just Falco who gets wrecked by the select amazing abusers of water camping (nor does he have it the worst, the example was just to illustrate 2 good characters matchups on this stage in relation to a good and a bad on a positive stage for the good character).

All the CP/Banned stages are more fair than Pirate Ship.

 

[Kief]

I rofl'd at this thread.

G&W vs Falco on Pirate Ship is as skewed as something like G&W vs Ganon on RC

Looool. __ vs Ganon on __ is pretty skewed as well. Also, comparing a MU on Pirate Ship to a MU on another stage that isn't banned is pretty funny as an argument. Bad logic is bad.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I don't see the issue, that's how bad the matchup actually is on Pirate Ship; it's comparable to a GANON matchup. If you stopped reading there there might be an issue but I clearly said:

"and it's not just Falco who gets wrecked by the select amazing abusers of water camping (nor does he have it the worst, the example was just to illustrate 2 good characters matchups on this stage in relation to a good and a bad on a positive stage for the good character)."

If there are NUMEROUS matchups comparable to a Ganon matchup, then it's a heads up that the stage is probably pretty **** unfair.

 

[Kief]

Then don't go swimming lol. I'd rather be Falco in the water than in an IC infinite.

I don't see the issue

The point was you compared it to another MU that isn't banned. That's a point against your argument lol.

 

[Rockan]

lol wow i'm using this

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Why the **** would you ban a matchup, lol? Stop trolling.
The point is, as you seem to have missed it EVEN after my reply pointing it out, is that there is several unwinnable matchups on this stage opposed to just one character being excessively bad on it.

If Falco doesnt go swimming when G&W is ahead then G&W wins lol. In fact, he pretty much wins when he does get a lead and then starts water camping even if Falco DOES try.

 

[Kief]

Lol. I'll like trolling when people are b!tching. It's funny.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I never *****, I was just posting because I felt it to be my duty for posting the rudder stalling video in the first place. The topic starter was being silly in regards to using Rudder Stalling as the criteria to ban this stage.

MrEscalator, troll hunter~

 

[Mic_128]

The water gives some characters a good advantage, the same way Rainbow cruise gives some characters a good advantage, the same way completly flat FD gives some characters a good advantage, the same way, ect, ect, ect.

The water gives some characters a good advantage that you say makes them pretty powerful. I don't see how that's any worse than FD giving IC's a good advantage for chaingrabs. Not to mention the stage gives lower tier characters a buff.

But the fact is, this isn't a thread for discussing the ship as a whole, but one method of stalling on the stage.

 

[Kuraudo]

I like Pirate Ship. My only real gripe with it is the danger of the bombs. Water can be dangerous for some as you get spiked, but Jungle Japes (the fast water and Klap-Trap aside) and Isle Delfino have water in it. Not to mention that Delfino has walk-off ledges at times for the easy kills if you fall for it or get trapped by Dedede. But that's not the topic at hand here, so before I get any more off topic, back to the stalling method.

Pirate Ship is a pretty legit stage in my books, and in my eyes only requires the banning of the rudder camping itself. The water itself shouldn't be an issue when a stage with water and walk off stages in one package is legal and used effectively. Unlike the Mute City stage (forget the name, Port Town was it?) where the vehicles are far too overpowered, while the bombs pack a punch, they can be seen coming just like the bomb/laser/grapple claw of Halberd. In my eyes, Pirate Ship has your standard hazards that push the envelope like other peculiar stages (even Pictochat and Norfair)

I don't understand how Pirate Ship came under such fire in the first place. It's not my first choice of a CP stage, but as an observer, I've come to notice that there are far worse things to ban a stage for.

Rudder camping is stupid, impractical even if it doesn't follow the true standard of 'stalling' if combated, and unnecessary and detracts from how a competitive stage should be played. But Pirate Ship shouldn't be getting the boot for it.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

My first post was addressing that this entire discussion is silly because Rudder Camping should just be banned. I then went to say PS has other, real issues with it.

Also, there is quite a difference in PS/RC/FD in the differences in the ratios. Pirate Ship's matchups are ridiculously skewed for the premier characters on it. Sure, Ganon, Ness, and Jigglypuff do better here than on normal stages, but the whole point is that people like G&W, MK, and TL still wreck them AND THEN goes on to wreck the rest of the cast that isnt broken here. Huge difference between those other stages. (I also think FD makes a poor starter unless there are 7 starters in total but now im just going off a tangent)

People have already discussed this stalling strategy enough. I only brought up actual water camping as kief asked for an elaboration and then proceeded to act as a troll and respond.

This thread has outlived it's shelf life.

 

[Ellio 2 b]

This topic is good, but don't you think that some people will start to do this only after reading your topic?

Thanks for the information, btw good work.

 

[Silent crisis]

Yeah I hate it when people do this

 

[AzureWing]

Haha I do this trick all the time.

 

[Bad!]

yea i would not like people use against me

 

[Balet]

I tried this on an online with anyone match, and now everyone is selecting Pirate Ship and spending the whole time doing this trick.

 

[Dragoomba]

I tried this on an online with anyone match, and now everyone is selecting Pirate Ship and spending the whole time doing this trick.

Oh yes, I'm sure.

 

[Sigma1808]

never knew why banned the pirate ship, and I thought it was for something else, lol

 

[T-block]

Hey sunshade, just wondering...

Which are the 17 characters that can get under the rudder? I count 16 between your group 2 and 3.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nice necrobump dude. >_>

 

[sunshade]

Did you count pikachu?

 

[T-block]

I figured it'd be okay since this forum isn't terribly active anyways, and I actually do have something to discuss =P

Okay, so group 2, group 3 + Pikachu? I'm surprised that Ness/Lucas can't make it under with PKT2, but I'll take your word for it. How did you get these numbers: "There are 8 characters who cannot stop ruddercamping and 17 who can get under the rudder totaling 128 matches. If you add in the match-ups between the 5 who can ruddercamp but cannot stop it effectively themselves, you end up with a total of 85 match-ups totaling 221 degenerate match-ups out of a total of 1369 possible match-ups."? I'm not following your calculations.

 

[sunshade]

There are 8 characters who cannot stop ruddercamping and 17 who can get under the rudder totaling 128 matches. If you add in the match-ups between the 5 who can ruddercamp but cannot stop it effectively themselves, you end up with a total of 85 match-ups totaling 221 degenerate match-ups out of a total of 1369 possible match-ups.

I put 128 instead of 136. 17 x 8 =/= 16 x 8 it seems :/

You have the 8 characters who cannot stop it and 17 who can preform it so you multiply 8 by 17 because each of those 8 have 17 degenerate matches and you get 136.

You then have 5 who can preform it but not stop it so they beat the 8 giving us 40 more.(I forgot to include this in the math so 221 is actually 40 less than the number of degenerate match-ups)

And then the 5 who can preform ruddercamping but not stop it lose to the 17 who can stop/preform it causing 85 more degenerate match ups.

So we have 136 + 40 + 85 = 261. (If you subtract 40 it comes out to 221. So it turns out that one typo and an oversight are why the math didn't make sense.)

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

This isn't a good reason for it to be banned.

1. Not all of the cast can do it.

2.Hard to land under the rudder and not any farther north.

3. When the hurrican comes, the boat rocks back and forth. This will KO anybody ruddercamping.

 

[Chsal]

Not all of the cast can do it.

Not all of the cast can do Metaknight's Infinite Cape either, and that is banned.

Hard to land under the rudder and not any farther north.

Words like "Hard" are only a matter of opinion. You may think its hard, but it probably isn't to somebody who's done it every time they've played PS.

When the hurrican comes, the boat rocks back and forth. This will KO anybody ruddercamping.

Simple. Get out before the hurricane comes. Even if it does turn into a normal Brawl during hurricanes, your opponent most likely won't be able to KO you anyway. Once the hurricane is over, dive back in.

Honestly though guys, something like this should never had needed a discussion. You don't need to delve deep into the exact meanings of "Stalling" and "Camping". Just take a step back and look at it. You don't even need to play Brawl to know it is stalling. I'm a total noobcake and I can see that fine.

However, if for some obscure reason a tournament DOES allow this, go crazy. The crowd probably won't like it too much though. Enjoy dieing socially.

Spoiler

Might as well go main Metaknight too.

Otherwise... PS is a decent map for CP.

 

[Alphicans]

Actually it's not stalling.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How on earth is it not stalling? It's even in the name for crying out loud: Rudder Stalling.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol, then I'll give it the name rudder camping. Now we have an argument don't we? How is it resolved? Not easily, that's how.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You still haven't answered how it's not stalling. >_>

 

[Alphicans]

Because it can be stopped by multiple characters. You never explained why it is stalling >_>.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because it can't be safely stopped by multiple characters. It's basically "Drop under there as well and get into a shoving match you can't really win unless the other guy allows it to happen so all you can hope for is a double KO due to the rudder moving with the whirlwind" If it was just a % chance of stopping it in order for it to not be banned, Sonic's HA stalling wouldn't be banned.

 

[T-block]

Only 8 or 13 characters that can't stop the technique make it debatable whether this should be banned for overcentralization. Calling it stalling and banning the technique completely isn't as obvious as you might think. What if I really didn't feel comfortable with the bombs? I'm not allowed to dive under the ship until they leave?

Anyways, I think your math is wrong... let's divide all 36 (Zelda/Sheik should be considered one character for this) characters into four groups. Group A those characters that cannot get under the rudder and cannot stop rudder camping - there are 8 characters in this group. Group B are those that can get under, but cannot effectively stop it - there are 5 characters in this group. Group C are those that can get under, and can also stop their opponent from doing so - there are 12 characters in this group: 17 that can get under, minus the 5 that can't stop it. The other 13 characters we'll place in group D... character that can't get under the rudder, but can stop their opponent from staying under there.

Group D doesn't matter - matchups with them are not threatened by rudder camping, since they can't initiate it, but can stop it if their opponent does. Any matchup containing two from the other three groups is threatened. In other words, a matchup that is A-B, B-C, or A-C. Note that these three groups are mutually exclusive. So, we have 8x5=40 A-B matchups, 8x12=96 A-C matchups, and 5x12=60 A-B matchups. A-A and C-C aren't threatened, but B-B matchups are - there are 15 B-B matchups. That gives us 211 matchups. The total number of matchups is 36x36=1296, but 630 of those are counted twice due to symmetry. So, 211 out of 666 matchups are threatened by rudder camping, or 31.68%.

 

[Justin Wiles]

Hey guys, add "rudder camping is illegal and the infracting competitor will be anal ***** by the TO" to your ruleset - Gold!

Seriously... if this ever became an issue (which it wouldn't), it's at the discretion of a TO or other Official to define stalling at any tournament... so all the TO has to say is, "that's stalling, stop that" and there's no argument.

I guess it would suck if you got a TO that thought it was a viable tactic (which noone thinks, so it would never happen).

 

[T-block]

I might be hesitant to call it stalling.

If they told me they were just waiting until the bombs came and passed, I'd think that's legitimate. Hell, if they told me they were waiting because they didn't like the King of Red Lions and wanted him to go away, I might think that's legitimate. Rules where the TO has a judge the intention of a player tend to have problems.

 

[Chsal]

But then they are still stalling aren't they?

Though even if it wasn't stalling..."I don't like the bombs, so I'm going to wait here for a bit till they go away"... Really?

If thats fine, lets take Toon Link to Yoshi's Island. "OH MY GOD SHY GUYS. I'm just going to run around the map until they go away because Shy Guys block my projectiles, which means I can't hit my opponent with projectiles".

Its not like the only way of avoiding the bombs is rudder stalling.

Anyway I'm going to pose another point here:
Would you guys really want to see a match, where every while or so, when something happens (bombs come along, the rock comes along etc) one of the players just exploits this glitch?

It'll be 10~ seconds of NOTHING. One person will be under the rudder. And the other will be running around on the ship thinking what to do. Doesn't exactly make for a very exciting game does it?

 

[Alphicans]

But then they are still stalling aren't they?

Though even if it wasn't stalling..."I don't like the bombs, so I'm going to wait here for a bit till they go away"... Really?

If thats fine, lets take Toon Link to Yoshi's Island. "OH MY GOD SHY GUYS. I'm just going to run around the map until they go away because Shy Guys block my projectiles, which means I can't hit my opponent with projectiles".
/QUOTE]

This is perfectly fine. There is no rule against running around a non circular map. If a map is a perfect circle, it will be banned, so...

Fail quote, w.e

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can avoid the bombs by jumping onto the top platform. Not a single bomb will ever reach up there. There is also the fact you have 5-7 seconds to avoid the bomb once it start flying (which is more time then you have to dodge the claw on Halbred once it starts moving I should add, so it's not even the fastest moving stage projectile out there. Nor is it the strongest, considering one of the hitboxes has basically set knockback, and it's only the much smaller hitbox that can KO you unless you DI incorrectly). If you play smart, you will never get hit by a bomb, unless an opponent forces you into one. In which case, you were outplayed so badly you couldn't even spotdodge/airdodge, and it's your fault, not the stage's fault.

 

[T-block]

I'm just saying =P I know all the bomb mechanics, and I always argue that bombs are no reason to ban this stage. (5-7 seconds is a lot btw...it's more like 2 seconds)

Anyways, I think it'd be fairly easy to ban being under the rudder. I just want to make sure we're aware of all the implications - we are removing an element of this stage that is probably degenerate, but also possibly strategic. If I were to go only on principles, I would ban Pirate Ship before I ban being under the rudder.

 

[Blakmane]

I don't think rudder camping is a particularly good reason to ban PS, shade. It's pretty clearly an example of degenerate play and so can be banned independently. If you want to argue for a PS ban it would be much simpler to argue that the level encourages degenerate play independently via water camping with spiking characters (the reason why it's banned in the places it is).