Pikachu's Tier Placement

[Pikabunz]

Fox is great. He's secretly top 3 if not the best character in the game. I feel so slow when I'm using Pikachu after playing Fox.

 

[Kaladin]

Fox is great. He's secretly top 3 if not the best character in the game. I feel so slow when I'm using Pikachu after playing Fox.

Wait...wut? Top three, sure. But best? He has no recovery options...

 

[Pikabunz]

His Side B is great for recovering. If you change up your timing, it can be really hard to gimp.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

His Side B is great for recovering. If you change up your timing, it can be really hard to gimp.

You srsly think he's top 3? Wow.....that's surprising considering his flaws and even still predictable recovery.
If anything the only reason he is so high despite being significantly nerfed is how the mechanics for this game have changed that benefit him more then most other characters.
If I had to choose..... Top 15? Idk about top 10, that may be a little over exaggerating, but hey, you have much more knowledge then a simple FG player, so yea you know what your talking about.

 

[Angiance]

Fox actually is really, really good-but I think K.Prime is just not as quick on his feet with Pikachu as he could be

 

[migul]

I agree with the comments on weight. I am finding that the Fox/Pika MU is becoming much easier as I get better at mastering jab cancel usmash. It is a hit confirm that guarantees a kill at 85% on Pika. This MU might become less favorable as Fox mains figure out the timing and become more adept at catching Pika. Of course, catching Pika is the issue since he has such great and unpredictable mobility.

Pikachu can escape below 70%, and can escape before the Up Smash before 125.

His Side B is great for recovering. If you change up your timing, it can be really hard to gimp.

Fox's offstage presence doesn't exist, and Pikachu's can be the most feared in the game. Fox's jab can be escaped by many at low percents, so it's just a kill setup. Nothing more, nothing less. Fox's side b can be gimped by nairs, since there is startup to the move and you can't shorten it, which sucks. Fire Fox... I don't think we need to dwell on that. Fox also feels quite slow in the air for me, due to the combination of his fast falling speed and low air speed. The reason you think Fox is so good is that you get your ass whupped everytime by Megafox, when you just don't know how to deal with it. I don't even think he's top 10.

 

[Pikabunz]

Offstage game isn't everything and you underrate his recovery. You're not always going to gimp him especially if he saves his double jump. If you do hit him with a nair, all it does is reset the situation and he can just try to sideb again, but this time you're in a worse spot to gimp him again. Even if you think his recovery is bad, that doesn't mean he's bad. Olimar's recovery in Brawl was awful, but that doesn't stop him from being top 3. And Megafox destroys everyone here, even our top Diddy players before the patch. You really need to play against a good Fox to see how good he is.

Also, please try not to double post. Just edit your last post if you want to add something.

 

[migul]

Fox's offstage presence doesn't exist, and Pikachu's can be the most feared in the game. Fox's jab can be escaped by many at low percents, so it's just a kill setup. Nothing more, nothing less. Fox's side b can be gimped by nairs, since there is startup to the move and you can't shorten it, which sucks. Fire Fox... I don't think we need to dwell on that. Fox also feels quite slow in the air for me, due to the combination of his fast falling speed and low air speed. The reason you think Fox is so good is that you get your *** whupped everytime by Megafox, when you just don't know hiw to deal with it. I don't even think he's top 10.

Offstage game isn't everything and you underrate his recovery. You're not always going to gimp him especially if he saves his double jump. If you do hit him with a nair, all it does is reset the situation and he can just try to sideb again, but this time you're in a worse spot to gimp him again. Even if you think his recovery is bad, that doesn't mean he's bad. Olimar's recovery in Brawl was awful, but that doesn't stop him from being top 3. And Megafox destroys everyone here, even our top Diddy players before the patch. You really need to play against a good Fox to see how good he is.

Also, please try not to double post. Just edit your last post if you want to add something.

My B. If his recovery's bad,that can be seen as a good size detractors from the character in this game, since in Brawl, there weren't many top tiers with good recoveries, like Marth, Falco, Diddy, and Olimar. In this game, at least half of the top 10 have some form of good recovery (Rosalina, Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, and Luigi to an extent.)
You want to know why Megafox is so successful? He's just a really good player. Have you ever heard the saying,"It's not the bat, it's the batter."? (It goes like something along those lines) I hear from many Sonic mains that aggressive Sonic shouldn't work too well, but the reason one of the most aggressive Sonics, 6WX, is so successful is that he's just an outstanding player. The reason ZeRo's tournament record is almost perfect is because he's the best player in the world, not because Diddy is the end all character. (ZeRo has even said Sheik is better.)

 

[Megamang]

Well, the player still is limited by his tools. Not to speak for you Pikabunz, but I'd imagine when he loses to Megafox it isn't so much "wow that character is OP, just no one knows it yet" as much as it is "****, this guy really shows me how good this character's tools are"


Also, take what top players say with a grain of salt. It seems that they are particularly aware of their characters' flaws, but they tend to internalize how good they are at covering those weaknesses. Additionally, things they struggle with may seem more powerful then they are, since watching a great player lose to something naturally makes people feel like they don't have a chance. See: Dabuz's opinions on Rosalina.

 

[Pikabunz]

Megafox is a great player who uses a great character. Same with 6WX and Zero.

 

[Angiance]

Fox and Pikachu are both very strong in this game

Buuuuut I firmly believe Pikachu is higher than Fox-just because of how we can gimp very, very, very much better than Shiek and Fox

Fox is still a monster of course, as well as Shiek-it's just Pikachu has key things over them

 

[Megamang]

Both pika and fox have a little bit of a weight problem. Fox gets to be a fastfaller instead, while pika gets to be tiny instead. I would say for the most part, pika's trade was better.

 

[migul]

Well, the player still is limited by his tools. Not to speak for you Pikabunz, but I'd imagine when he loses to Megafox it isn't so much "wow that character is OP, just no one knows it yet" as much as it is "****, this guy really shows me how good this character's tools are"


Also, take what top players say with a grain of salt. It seems that they are particularly aware of their characters' flaws, but they tend to internalize how good they are at covering those weaknesses. Additionally, things they struggle with may seem more powerful then they are, since watching a great player lose to something naturally makes people feel like they don't have a chance. See: Dabuz's opinions on Rosalina.

A player still has to work around them. Also @ Pikabunz I believe that if you are hit out of Side B, you can't use it again, like with ZSS/Sheik's down b's. A player still should know what their character's strengths and weaknesses are and how to work with/around them. Other wise they'll be exploited time and time again. (Knowing is literally half the battle.)

Megafox is a great player who uses a great character. Same with 6WX and Zero.

I'm not saying Fox is bad, but I think the most likely cause of his reign in the San Antonio area is mainly due to how he is a level or 2 above everyone. Fox just doesn't have anything that makes him outright amazing. He may have good ground mobility, but that just might be it. You haven't said or shown anything that would make me think,"Wow, this character is ****ing dangerous." That is why I think Pikachu , Sheik, and Diddy are the top three in that order, due to their amazing edgeguarding, combo game, and neutral game respectively.
What makes 6WX's success more likely caused by his skill is the fact that aggressive could easily be shut down, since Sonic can't make approach opportunities like Sheik can. As for ZeRo... you can't win every tournament you go to just because you're,"A great player who uses a great character." ZeRo's skill is beyond anyone else's at this moment in time.

 

[Megamang]

While I don't blame him for it, it is unfortunate the very best player is using the best (from what we know) character. Prepatch, it was disheartening to hear him say that shiek was better but he prefers Diddy, it almost felt like "I know something you don't".


Still, he has great insight into the game, and believes in pikachu, so that is a nice feeling.

 

[Pikabunz]

A player still has to work around them. Also @ Pikabunz I believe that if you are hit out of Side B, you can't use it again, like with ZSS/Sheik's down b's. A player still should know what their character's strengths and weaknesses are and how to work with/around them. Other wise they'll be exploited time and time again. (Knowing is literally half the battle.)

I'm not saying Fox is bad, but I think the most likely cause of his reign in the San Antonio area is mainly due to how he is a level or 2 above everyone. Fox just doesn't have anything that makes him outright amazing. He may have good ground mobility, but that just might be it. You haven't said or shown anything that would make me think,"Wow, this character is ****ing dangerous." That is why I think Pikachu , Sheik, and Diddy are the top three in that order, due to their amazing edgeguarding, combo game, and neutral game respectively.
What makes 6WX's success more likely caused by his skill is the fact that aggressive could easily be shut down, since Sonic can't make approach opportunities like Sheik can. As for ZeRo... you can't win every tournament you go to just because you're,"A great player who uses a great character." ZeRo's skill is beyond anyone else's at this moment in time.

Fox does get his sideb back after being hit. I know a lot about my character, and that's why I think he's not top 3. And I've recently been playing Fox a lot too and I now know what makes him so great. Fox's attacks overall come out really fast and they set-up for combos and kills extremely well. His utilt comes out on frame 3, starts from behind him, and sets up for combos and kills. This thing is amazing for characters who try to cross you up with an aerial landing or roll. Fox's dash attack is an great punish move with it's 4 frame start up and sets ups just like utilt. Pretty much a lot of Fox's attacks puts you in the air right near Fox which is the worst place you want to be against Fox. With his incredible ground speed, jump speed, and fall speed, he can bait you or frame trap into his many kills moves.

 

[migul]

Fox does get his sideb back after being hit. I know a lot about my character, and that's why I think he's not top 3. And I've recently been playing Fox a lot too and I now know what makes him so great. Fox's attacks overall come out really fast and they set-up for combos and kills extremely well. His utilt comes out on frame 3, starts from behind him, and sets up for combos and kills. This thing is amazing for characters who try to cross you up with an aerial landing or roll. Fox's dash attack is an great punish move with it's 4 frame start up and sets ups just like utilt. Pretty much a lot of Fox's attacks puts you in the air right near Fox which is the worst place you want to be against Fox. With his incredible ground speed, jump speed, and fall speed, he can bait you or frame trap into his many kills moves.

His fall speed betrays him off stage. I also know a lot about other characters. Captain Falcon has many more kill moves, comboes, frame traps, etc. and also has amazing aerials, and he's much faster than Fox. Pikachu has the ability to 0-death and is extremely hard to catch. His attacks have amazing priority and are all useful. He has a true infinite that can confirm into a HSB kill as low as 70%, unlike Fox's which can be easily escaped. Pikachu has lasting hitboxes that are easy bake frametraps. Pikachu has undoubtedly the best edgeguarding in the game, with a spike, many good gimping tools, a figurative/literal wall that is thunder, and a recovery move that can allow you to go for the most gutsy edgeguards in the game. He has the ability to quickly take control of both the ground and the air at once because of full hop T-Jolt. His approach options are very good also. Sheik is faster than Fox in almost every regard, and has frametraps that confirm kills at ~90%. She can combo you off stage with ease, and her dash grab has deceivingly long range. Diddy has 2 kill throws, the banana, his comboes, and among the best neutral games out there.There are characters that fulfill Fox's roles much better. Fast moves and fast movement don't make a character the best. It's a lot deeper than that. Fox has a below average recovery, is more susceptible to juggles due to falling speed, and can have a bit of trouble with projectiles. (Don't say Down B, you can be baited into doing that.) Fox has comboes and frametraps, but all top tiers have that. You still haven't convinced me that Fox is the best at anything.

 

[Pikabunz]

Fox's combos and frametraps are so much better than the other top tiers though. I don't see how you can say Fox's recovery is a big weakness that makes him not as good as the top tiers when Captain Falcon's recovery is much worse. Also his Down B isn't bad. If you reflect a projectile with it you can't be punished for it, since you can just jump cancel it or roll/spotdodge. You're really underestimating everything about Fox. His mobility, recovery, combos, and kill setups are so much better than you think. I can't really prove that to you without playing you though.

Btw, do you ever play in tournaments? Just curious.

 

[Angiance]

@ migul
You're statement is pretty biased

I will agree that Megafox has been playing Fox for many, many, many years now so it makes sense that he has an otherworldly degree of control over Fox-this amount of control gives him an edge over players and can make the character seem much better than it actually is

It's just like aMSa being insane with Yoshi in Melee

I wholeheartedly agree that Fox is with no doubts top tier-yes, i do

 

[migul]

Fox's combos and frametraps are so much better than the other top tiers though. I don't see how you can say Fox's recovery is a big weakness that makes him not as good as the top tiers when Captain Falcon's recovery is much worse. Also his Down B isn't bad. If you reflect a projectile with it you can't be punished for it, since you can just jump cancel it or roll/spotdodge. You're really underestimating everything about Fox. His mobility, recovery, combos, and kill setups are so much better than you think. I can't really prove that to you without playing you though.

Btw, do you ever play in tournaments? Just curious.

I sure as hell want to, but the only tournament in the Bay Area that I know of is in a bar, and I'm 13.
Say if Pikachu approaches with T-Jolt, here's what can happen:
Take the hit=free Up Smash
Shield=Free Downthrow Thunder mixup
Shine=Nair or other aerial
Jump and Aerial=challenge with aerial, resulting with a trade. (Check on this one)
Ground Attack=See shine
I told you at least half of the top ten have pretty good recoveries, and I know how bad Falcon's is. It's just... Fox doesn't seem to shine anywhere. Nakat I believe went solo Fox, and he got 9th at Apex. Megafox was nowhere to be found on the rankings I've seen.
Theory craft is my specialty, and that is what makes me convinced with stuff. Why don't you break down a couple plays to show me the frametraps.
I'm actually surprised that you haven't mentioned Nair for Fox, as I think it's one of, if not the, most powerful tools in his arsenal.
EDIT: Pun was intended.
@ Angiance I just wanted to say Fox isn't the best character in the game. Only people who haven't played him have the opinion you assume I have, even then most of those people can say,"Fox is good" with a straight face. He's definitely top tier, but the best? Ahead of Sheik and Diddy Kong and Pikachu and Rosalina? All of which have abilities and attributes no one else has? This may be biased, but I don't see that ever being a thing. I think you missed the crux of my argument: Fox is great, but not outstanding to the point where he's top 3.

 

[Angiance]

I sure as hell want to, but the only tournament in the Bay Area that I know of is in a bar, and I'm 13.
Say if Pikachu approaches with T-Jolt, here's what can happen:
Take the hit=free Up Smash
Shield=Free Downthrow Thunder mixup
Shine=Nair or other aerial
Jump and Aerial=challenge with aerial, resulting with a trade. (Check on this one)
Ground Attack=See shine
I told you at least half of the top ten have pretty good recoveries, and I know how bad Falcon's is. It's just... Fox doesn't seem to shine anywhere. Nakat I believe went solo Fox, and he got 9th at Apex. Megafox was nowhere to be found on the rankings I've seen.
Theory craft is my specialty, and that is what makes me convinced with stuff. Why don't you break down a couple plays to show me the frametraps.
I'm actually surprised that you haven't mentioned Nair for Fox, as I think it's one of, if not the, most powerful tools in his arsenal.
EDIT: Pun was intended.

You're too young to be taken seriously, ahahahaha-I'm jk

Your entire argument is exceptionally biased though-you're basically saying "Fox isn't great at all"

You haven't played a good Fox, so you have no grounds to speak upon

 

[migul]

Here goes nothing:
I have always wanted to make a tier list myself, but I never had the input that I needed, and I know I'm biased, so why don't we make one?
Here's the outline. I'll keep it updated:
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
I'll start with the top 15, and we'll debate on that. Once we feel we have reached an agreement, we'll move on to the next 15. This will keep going until we comb through the entire cast.
Here are the characters I think we can unanimously put in top 15: (No particular order.)
This is a customs tier list.
Any more you would like to add?

 

[Pikabunz]

I don't play customs, but aren't Villager and DK really good with them?

 

[migul]

I don't play customs, but aren't Villager and DK really good with them?

They probably get some of the biggest buffs, along with Palutena.

 

[Kaladin]

Wait, so now we're making a tier list to decide whether or not fox is top three to decide whether or not pika is the best in the game.

K den.

 

[migul]

Wait, so now we're making a tier list to decide whether or not fox is top three to decide whether or not pika is the best in the game.

K den.

Basically to settle any disputes, yes.

 

[Kaladin]

Basically to settle any disputes, yes.

It won't settle anything. When you decide how to order the top 15, it'll be the same debate. Tier lists are cool, but I don't see much of a point to that (no offense)

 

[Angiance]

@ migul
Just hush, boy

Pikachu is so cute that he is SSS tier end of discussion

 

[migul]

It won't settle anything. When you decide how to order the top 15, it'll be the same debate. Tier lists are cool, but I don't see much of a point to that (no offense)

I guess, but it's still nice to see where the characters stack up. (At least, where people think they stack up, since no one will completely agree with that. Chances are 1/2^52.)
@ Angiance "boy" LMAO

 

[Angiance]

Yeah, boy, play a good Fox first, then you can present a better argument

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I guess, but it's still nice to see where the characters stack up. (At least, where people think they stack up, since no one will completely agree with that. Chances are 1/2^52.)
@ Angiance "boy" LMAO

I know how it feels.....all I have is FG and live in Beloit myself.
So unless I fight good people online........not gonna really learn much.

 

[Cassio]

I'm not a big fan of pikas current metagame from what I see in footage. I don't understand the love affair with fair in neutral but everyone seems to love such a mediocre move. And missed techs to jab locks aren't reliable that shouldn't exist as a big argument for pika his strength, but if anyone's even testing pika tech they should be aware Pikachu can tech chase grab/upsmash on reaction because tech rolls have so much lag. Even if they tech in you have enough time to shield, shield drop, run the other way, then upsmash. Lot of other stuff but this is already getting too long.

I was just going by what @JayWon said. And Larry is a very good Fox, probably 2nd best. But Megafox is miles better. He's what a true top Fox player should play like. /regionbias

Larry is the best fox. Prime no offense but I think the reason you think this is because mega fox is a couple levels ahead of you. He commits way less then you and his punish game is on a different level disregarding character choice. You need to stop picking panic options in neutral and hit the lab so you know what does and more importantly doesn't work for pikas punish. Remember too Larry beat ESAM.

As for Pikachu, I think anyone trying to make a an accurate list right now isn't going to make anything useful. If you made a result based list pika his probably mid tier but result based lists are boring, you don't even need analysis or people for that. Realistically Pikachu sits in a top tier of viable characters who are hard to rank right now.

 

[Angiance]

@ Cassio
You're just mad cause you don't understand how to utilize F.Air-if you can't even understand how powerful F.Air is as an aerial then I doubt your skill as a Pikachu

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@ Cassio
You're just mad cause you don't understand how to utilize F.Air-if you can't even understand how powerful F.Air is as an aerial then I doubt your skill as a Pikachu

Wow.......that's a mature response. You don't even know him and he gives his opinion on one little move and that's how you respond to it?

 

[Kaladin]

Wow.......that's a mature response. You don't even know him and he gives his opinion on one little move and that's how you respond to it?

Yup, Angiance apparently likes making everything personal.

 

[Cassio]

Watch any pikachu and when they use fair outside punish game and I guarantee you theres several point where they got put in a bad situation or punished for using it. Its the most over utilized and overrated move, if every pikachu player stopped using that move now and worked on mastering pikas other tools their neutral game would drastically improve.

The move is good at stuffing almost every approach and on shields, and in that sense its still nice to have because it cuts off those options from opponents. But unless youre playing someone who's not that good or just bought the game its not a move theyre going to just get hit by, and even diddy and sheiks fairs arent that safe to toss out without hitting the opponent or a shield and pikachus isnt as good as theirs.

Edit: Side note, but Im pretty sure you can just ftilt fox's side b recovery, lol. I remember trying it because it works in melee and it seemed to work in sm4sh as well but it wasnt exhaustively tested.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Watch any pikachu and when they use fair outside punish game and I guarantee you theres several point where they got put in a bad situation or punished for using it. Its the most over utilized and overrated move, if every pikachu player stopped using that move now and worked on mastering pikas other tools their neutral game would drastically improve.

The move is good at stuffing almost every approach and on shields, and in that sense its still nice to have because it cuts off those options from opponents. But unless youre playing someone who's not that good or just bought the game its not a move theyre going to just get hit by, and even diddy and sheiks fairs arent that safe to toss out without hitting the opponent or a shield and pikachus isnt as good as theirs.

Edit: Side note, but Im pretty sure you can just ftilt fox's side b recovery, lol. I remember trying it because it works in melee and it seemed to work in sm4sh as well but it wasnt exhaustively tested.

You have any videos of your pika? I would like too see them.

 

[Legato]

Wow quite a discussion happening here. First there is this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxx1Uy3c_C8

Larry Lurr adapts beautifully in this video to ESAM. Second, Fox's meta has a very long way to go imo. His perfect pivot is one of the cleanest and fastest in game making it way more tourney viable for him than other chars. We already discussed this on the fox boards. PP lasers make lasers viable, PP shielding is a good retreat option for Fox and is used by some of us. I've been working on PP jab cancels and PP utilts to space hit confirms for kills. There is much to be done.

@ Cassio I couldn't agree more with Pika's neutral. Fair is good, but I think there are plenty of other good options. First of all, nair out of shield is great for grab happy players and can be used as a strong punish in combination with jab-locks and QAing to read the roll. Both lead into a hefty punish. Approaching with sh fair should happen among all of the already incredible options Pika has, and still I hesitate to say that on some MU's. For example, Fox can punish sh Fair with dash attack. That is not good, because it means I can punish pretty much any whiffed fair in neutral. ESAM uses a retreating dair often as well to catch charging opponents and often goes into dtilt if it whiffs. Pika's defensive options are amazingly effective and if interspersed with aggressive moves this makes Pika have very large stage presence. I think the meta has a long way to go for both. Still, I love these kinds of discussions.

 

[Angiance]

Wow.......that's a mature response. You don't even know him and he gives his opinion on one little move and that's how you respond to it?

Me and him have talked many times before, so hush

F.Air is our main attack, since it gives us powerful options and we can land with it which makes it even more flexible

It extends comboes, creates frame traps, and powers through zones-especially projectile zones and etc

It's weak point is the startup, but that is negligible if you understand that using it >ahead of time> compliments it super well

You all have absolutely no clue how to use F.Air-elsewise you would understand that it is a RIDICULOUS aerial

@ Cassio
Shiek's F.Air isn't safe to throw out? What? That move has very good priority and minor landing lag-I think you may want to reword what you said

Pikachu's F.Air gives us nasty stage control

Ex. I can sh at the opponent and aim for a Falling F.Air, but if I see they are trying to outspace it I can land normally and counter their attempt to outspace my F.Air by walking forward for a D.Tilt or Dash Grabbing

 

[Roll-Spamming-Peasant]

Just want to throw this out there:

I dropped Fox (after playing him so long, just bored) for Pika, Learned QAC pretty fast, learned how to do offstage thunder gimps and other things like it. I am STILL switching BACK to Fox and commend you for putting up with this character, as much as you guys are talking up Fox. The movement is ridiculously fun, but having the problem of needing to get an opponent to 100-130% to even think of killing while the enemy only has to get you to maybe 70% for some heavy characters to just throw an errand smash attack and get an easy kill on you. I don't have a lot of patience, so that's probably my fault, but that's also why I like Fox I think.

Anyways, just my opinion, wouldn't take me too seriously, but maybe can stir discussion?

 

[Angiance]

@ Roll-Spamming-Peasant
Well, Fox can rack damage up very, very frighteningly quickly without being touched-so that balances things out