Leffen was one of the people that got the whole Diddy train started. But anyway, I think a lot of top players thought Pikachu was mid-tier, but then they saw what was possible from ESAM, then they started seeing potential, which caused him to be top tier. You actually have the more popular opinion dude. NAKAT, Nairo, and a bunch of other players don't put him in top 5, but the one who do do so because they see potential for the character completely dominating the metagame, like Sheik, Diddy, and Rosalina did/do. I'd just like you to be a little more optimistic. (I might go a little off track here.) Do you remember the Ken vs. Isai set at the Moast 3? (Old school, I know) People started to get extremely good extremely fast after that, since they saw what was possible during that set. I think it could also apply to how Pikachu could have his limits broken once, or maybe even multiple times, just because of one set. It can still happen.Leffen picking up Pikachu means nothing. He's not even a top player for this game. He plays Melee and Smash 4 is an entirely different game. All that Melee skill will not carry over. He may still be good though. I didn't even think he still played Smash 4. All I remember from him is his Diddy getting wrecked by some Luigi.
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Pikachu's Tier Placement
- Thread starter Legato
- Start date
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
Pikachu made top 10 automatically in every game just cause his cuteness.
Nairo
Banned via Administration
Ah didn't see his post up there my bad and I see! Yea mega looked pretty good in the start wouldn't doubt that he got better!I was just going by what @JayWon said. And Larry is a very good Fox, probably 2nd best. But Megafox is miles better. He's what a true top Fox player should play like. /regionbias
Angiance
Smash Lord
Once you all realize that his tail attacks create insane stage control, crazy frame traps, and easy baits you'll say Pikachu is
top 3 too
Stop relying so much on T.Jolt and such-go hard~♡
top 3 too
Stop relying so much on T.Jolt and such-go hard~♡
JayWon
Smash Journeyman
arg sorry dude for some reason I thought you said it in some interview or twitch or wherever somewhere. My mistake!
Legato
Smash Apprentice
@Pikabunz Saw that video, nice stuff! I think you could definitely go big playing like that. That double thunder was sick, and Megafox is no slouch. If you're ever free for some friendlies I'd love to pick up some of your play-style for my pika.
Also, just a sidenote, ZeRo's fox has gotten better imo, he still has the habit of using reflector while recovering near stage at the top which can be punished by Pika, but I was Fox anyways against him so I got no punishes for it.
Also, just a sidenote, ZeRo's fox has gotten better imo, he still has the habit of using reflector while recovering near stage at the top which can be punished by Pika, but I was Fox anyways against him so I got no punishes for it.
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
so i created a small tournament at my school and showed what pika could do, all i did was string air attacks and everytime i set up i heard "there goes pikachu with his combos" xD pika is one of the best jugglers in the game<3
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KurashiDragon
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On my personal top 10 list, I have him at number 7. He's a very powerful character with very few flaws but he's not overpowered imo.
Drexel
Smash Journeyman
Funny thing is I just started playing with the electric mouse several days ago, and I was really surprised on how effective Pikachu is. Since I was new to the character, I didn't play him at the start of a tournament yesterday. I took my normal mains into the first round and they got rekt. It was Double Elimination so I did have another chance, I decided to bring Pika along and I went on a really good streak only to be beat by a guy who would eventually reach the losers' semis.
Now I have played Pikachu a bit in all of the previous titles, but Pikachu in Smash 4 I just fell in love with. In terms of tier placement he is not top tier due to less range on his attacks besides FSmash as well as not very much KO power with exception the USmash and Thunder, but he is definitely upper high tier. His speed, small size, recovery and combo game are all amazing and he has some good combo setups, (at least from my brief experience), in the Thunder Jolt, DTilt, UTilt, FThrow, DThrow and of course UThrow >Thunder if they don't DI properly.
With all this said I think I am going to convert myself to playing Pikachu a little more and make him a main, I just love his playstyle.
Now I have played Pikachu a bit in all of the previous titles, but Pikachu in Smash 4 I just fell in love with. In terms of tier placement he is not top tier due to less range on his attacks besides FSmash as well as not very much KO power with exception the USmash and Thunder, but he is definitely upper high tier. His speed, small size, recovery and combo game are all amazing and he has some good combo setups, (at least from my brief experience), in the Thunder Jolt, DTilt, UTilt, FThrow, DThrow and of course UThrow >Thunder if they don't DI properly.
With all this said I think I am going to convert myself to playing Pikachu a little more and make him a main, I just love his playstyle.
There is really 1 thing that makes him top tier: QA. Pikachu can also close stocks very early with customs, so he has kill power.
Angiance
Smash Lord
The thing that makes him so powerful would be his tail attacks
His tail attacks give him extreme stage control, murderous frame traps, and nasty setups
QA is amazing, but you all overrate it a bit
His tail attacks give him extreme stage control, murderous frame traps, and nasty setups
QA is amazing, but you all overrate it a bit
Drexel
Smash Journeyman
Of course, QA is essential, really great for getting some cheap easy damage.
Angiance
Smash Lord
QA = Overrated
No. Just because you can't throw it out randomly doesn't mean it isn't overrated. It's not brainless, and you can't be reckless with it. However, QA is extremely hard to challenge and punish, due to its unpredictable nature and its good distance. There's so many uses for QA it's not even funny. If you run into trouble when you throw out Up-B, that's you, not the move itself.
Thunder is horrible in neutral, at most used to kill from Up/Down throw. If anything, its used for making walls difficult to get past in edge guarding. You can do anything but go straight through, and if they airdodge, you can reset the situation and even go for a Bair spike. Stuff like this, plus the ability to go for ridiculously aggressive and deep edgeguards, makes Pikachu's off stage game the undisputed best IMO. The fact that Pikachu has ridiculous kill setups that can make you as good as gone at the low percent of 40 AND the ridiculous comboes that take either to the top or offstage make him the best character in the game IMO.
Thor
Smash Champion
This turned into a giant trash talk thread like what's going on here
Pikachu is a good character. I kinda want to see ESAM fight all the top players of their characters [Zero could actually fill in for a lot, but maybe like Mr. R again with his Sheik (post-nerf), Mr. ConCon or Boss or whomever w/ Luigi, 6WX or whomever w/ Sonic, etc.] to see if his thoughts on the MUs play out, since it would give us concrete footage to work with.
My two cents - Pikachu has a lot of tools and has seen huge buffs from Brawl due to fair and bair becoming amazing, without actually losing any tools, sans QAC [which still sort of exists] and CGs (and Pikachu has more damaging throw combos that compensate). I think he's probably top 5.
QA MAY be slightly overrated, but it looks like Angiance underrates regardless of if we overrate it or not.
Pikachu is a good character. I kinda want to see ESAM fight all the top players of their characters [Zero could actually fill in for a lot, but maybe like Mr. R again with his Sheik (post-nerf), Mr. ConCon or Boss or whomever w/ Luigi, 6WX or whomever w/ Sonic, etc.] to see if his thoughts on the MUs play out, since it would give us concrete footage to work with.
My two cents - Pikachu has a lot of tools and has seen huge buffs from Brawl due to fair and bair becoming amazing, without actually losing any tools, sans QAC [which still sort of exists] and CGs (and Pikachu has more damaging throw combos that compensate). I think he's probably top 5.
QA MAY be slightly overrated, but it looks like Angiance underrates regardless of if we overrate it or not.
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Angiance
Smash Lord
I agree with you that the tail attacks are crazy, but u-air has some unbearable landing lag. I do think QA deserves all the credit it gets though.@migul
Me saying "QA is overrated," doesn't mean I'm saying it's bad, dummy~
All I'm saying is QA is worshipped too much, when it's his tail attacks that make him such a powerful character
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
i agree, recently i've been in to juggling, so i QA across the map to where i U.tilted my opponent and either UPair or U.tilt again. the tail attacks are great too.@
Me saying "QA is overrated," doesn't mean I'm saying it's bad, dummy~
All I'm saying is QA is worshipped too much, when it's his tail attacks that make him such a powerful character
Angiance
Smash Lord
I like QA too but his tail attacks give us devastating stage control, crazy mad frame traps, and allow us to be stupidly aggressive
Also: who lands with U.Air? Ahahahaha -^ - ^-
Also: who lands with U.Air? Ahahahaha -^ - ^-
Me when I'm greedy.
Megamang
Smash Lord
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The defining characteristic of the very best characters in smash is a great MU spread.
What are some notable MUs we have that would place us near the top? Murdering Captain Falcon is a great asset.
What are the bad MUs that hold us back? I personally hate shiek but feel we do well enough against her; I don't think she loses any MUs currently, regardless of what Kirby boards (plausible) and Pac Main boards (Lol, discussing ZSS with them made me doubt they are even with shiek as they somehow think). Being tiny and fast is great.
How do we fare against Mii brawler?
What are some notable MUs we have that would place us near the top? Murdering Captain Falcon is a great asset.
What are the bad MUs that hold us back? I personally hate shiek but feel we do well enough against her; I don't think she loses any MUs currently, regardless of what Kirby boards (plausible) and Pac Main boards (Lol, discussing ZSS with them made me doubt they are even with shiek as they somehow think). Being tiny and fast is great.
How do we fare against Mii brawler?
Not terribly. We are as, if not much faster, than Mii brawler. We do have all of our amazing tools at our disposal, like QA and U-Tilt. Mii does kill earlier. I also think we sort of murder Rosalina and Luma.
Megamang
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Yea, I always do decently against brawler so long as I follow the advice (I forget where it came from) of avoiding his nair and grabs.
Can we get out of the throw-helicopter kick kill setup he has on some people?
Really? I don't know much about that MU, the only rosaluma practice partner I have is pretty significantly worse than me so I don't know if im just outplaying.
What I can figure is we don't really die to u-air because of QA, we don't get juggled because of QA... her smashes and damage output is still scary to me though. Tjolting luma to death is great, as is DAing her off the stage. Sometimes I even let myself get grabbed if it means ill send luma to her death, as we are actually fast enough to chase rosalina.
Still, her walls are crazy... but I guess pika has dealt with scarier walls. Do you think we win the matchup, if both players know it?
Angiance
Smash Lord
Pika v Rosalina...probably slightly in out favor, because her height makes her vulnerable to sh F.Air
I haven't tested Helicopter Kick.
Pikachu has a unique way of dealing with walls like Rosalina's: Movement options. We never really need to face luma straight on, since we have 2 options: crawl and QA, both extremely effective.
Angiance
Smash Lord
You can also just use the sh F.Air, it's a pretty nasty zone breaker-especially against tall or large characters since they can't help but get hit by it, hehehehe
isaiah :)
Smash Apprentice
what if she uses U.tilt when you fair?You can also just use the sh F.Air, it's a pretty nasty zone breaker-especially against tall or large characters since they can't help but get hit by it, hehehehe
Angiance
Smash Lord
F.Air will tear right through it~
Angiance
Smash Lord
The thing F.Air accels at is hitting blindspots of attacks-your F.Air will cut through the sour hitbox of Luma.
U.Smash would be stupid to use against our sh F.Air since it has minor endlag-we'll react to the startup of U.Smash and weave out a bit with F.Air, this will give us a positional advantage
U.Smash would be stupid to use against our sh F.Air since it has minor endlag-we'll react to the startup of U.Smash and weave out a bit with F.Air, this will give us a positional advantage
Megamang
Smash Lord
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U-smash would probably only be coming out when a trade would result in a kill for Rosalina, to react to a predicted fair. I say this because I think we have an easier time than most characters avoiding the u-air traps which Rosaluma kills with pretty consistently. Other methods are followups with luma's aerials when you go off the edge, which again pika is equipped to move around. But, you do have to be pretty careful since between Rosalina and Luma there will be hitboxes everywhere.
Either way, I watched some pika vs luma tournament videos, and fair does seem to work out well against the pair.
What are some good moves for separating the two? D-smash i would guess, although that is harder to land.
Either way, I watched some pika vs luma tournament videos, and fair does seem to work out well against the pair.
What are some good moves for separating the two? D-smash i would guess, although that is harder to land.
JayWon
Smash Journeyman
Rosalina may DI up throw and thunder, but I believe Luma stays behind and eats the thunder and has a good chance to be thrown off stage
Nair and dash attack are outstanding for this.
Megamang
Smash Lord
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I find tjolt is outstandig in this MU, since we are mobile enough with it to punish gravity pull without committing to an approach (so we don't eat a smash if they absorb the shot with luma). I basically camp tjolt until either rosalina opens herself up really badly or until luma is dead, and then I move in. Usually with a mixup between grab, nair, and QA. Meanwhile I don't really space with d-tilt as much in the MU, since I don't really want to be engaging luma anyways as this is usually a bad trade. If luma is in the range, I f-smash her, but I don't think better rosalinas will allow this to happen much. I feel no remorse camping that puppet bull**** =P
Am I on the right track? Also, what is the optimal DI on her throws? I usually try and DI towards her front, since it seems to get me the furthest away.
Am I on the right track? Also, what is the optimal DI on her throws? I usually try and DI towards her front, since it seems to get me the furthest away.
The Rosaluma mains I've heard all agree that when Luma isn't dead, crossing her up is a great idea, and since we have QA... Well, I usually mix up my camping with crossup nairs and such, and it works ratger well.
LunarWingCloud
Smash Lord
What are you talking about? Dtilt comes out really quickly and utilt isn't that slow at all. Also fair has really safe landing.
Megamang
Smash Lord
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@Pikabunz
I don't really utilize f-tilt unless I particularly want the opponent to go out at that angle (sending the opponent at a shallow angle near the edge can help set up some interesting traps and gimps). It is also nice as a middle ground between F-smash and jab for speed/power, although this is true of almost all f-tilts. The d-tilt has great range and reward, especially considering how low it puts pika, how much mobility he has with it using crawl, and how much safety pika gets from OOS options because of how low he is. I guess the only disadvantage to having a d-tilt spacer over a f-tilt spacer is the fact that you can't suddenly turn around and use it as easily or quickly... but this ok, because u-tilt coverage starts behind you! Bringing me to U-tilt...
U-tilt isn't the fastest u-tilt, but again on such a tiny character it has great coverage for pika. And, its reward is pretty awesome, setting up juggles and traps pretty cleanly and safely. It has little lag as well.
Fair is something I am less familiar with, I am used to landing with u-airs from other games and I will admit the landing lag on that is pretty significant. I am trying to work in more fairs, but it is a hard move to space. Does it stop pika's momentum? something about it makes it hard to use as a fadeaway on shields.
Anyways, I think pika's moveset is amazing, and his stature and speed, along with QA, is IMO a top-tier toolkit.
Pika's main problems are his weight and his trouble killing if gimping is failing. Killing is easier in a custom's on environment, and I think we can utilize f-smash's insane range and speed to land kills easier. His weight is not something easy to work around. I think if anything is gonna cause pika to fall down in viability, it would be people figuring out easy ways to kill him early. Guaranteed kill setups on pika at low percentage would make a MU very hard, and I fear people finding more of these. Dying at 90%, even once, is a pretty big obstacle to overcome in a match.
Legato
Smash Apprentice
I agree with the comments on weight. I am finding that the Fox/Pika MU is becoming much easier as I get better at mastering jab cancel usmash. It is a hit confirm that guarantees a kill at 85% on Pika. This MU might become less favorable as Fox mains figure out the timing and become more adept at catching Pika. Of course, catching Pika is the issue since he has such great and unpredictable mobility.