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Pikachu's Tier Placement

Legato

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Hey guys, I've been playing Pikachu for about 3 days now, and already I find she is probably better than my Fox. I know ESAM thinks she is top tier, and I am inclined to agree because of her movement options; QA and QAC just make me feel so free. Does anyone know/have thoughts on why other competitive players think she is below Sheik? Is it her range?

Definitely might main her, I love being aggressive, and she is the epitome of unpredictability.
 

SafCar

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Sheik has kill power, something Pikachu lacks aside from Smash attacks. Sheik is about relentlessly pursuing the opponent and pressuring them into mistakes, then capitalizing on those errors and KOing them.

Pikachu is more about getting the opponent stuck in stage recovery. This is helped further by Thunder Jolt, Dair, Bair, Nair, Thunder (reversed), and QA. In neutral, Pikachu needs a good read in order to attempt a KO. He's a more pesky version of Sheik, but Sheik can affirm that there is no room for error in her attacks.

In other words, Sheik's KO potential is why she is ranked higher than Pikachu.

I still enjoy using Pikachu as a fast option. Helps me apply pressure to the more patient players.
 

Pikabunz

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Pikachu's kill power on the ground is way better than Sheik's. Pikachu gets free kills on anyone that's bad at landing at as low as 80%. Fsmash reads on people trying to recover from the ledge can kill even earlier than that. Sheik kills better in the air though with uair off the top, upb reads, and bouncing fish setups. Both are good at edge guard kills, but I think Pikachu is a little better at it.

Also Pikachu is a male.
 
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Legato

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Hehe, I always got in the habit of female pika since ssb64 came out before we could tell. I still imagine that it is the old pika of sexual ambiguity lol. I see mixed thoughts, perhaps we just need the meta to develop to really know, that or more insights. On the kill note, my pika kills way more consistent than my sheik, but I have been making reads to get kills for ages because of Fox. So I don't know if my experience is reliable to the competitive scene.
 

dangeraaron10

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Yep, Pikachu's a boy. We can at least tell now because females have a cleft tail instead of the regular box shaped tail. Speaking of, I wonder in the next game if Pikachu will get alts with the female tail or even ORAS's dressup costumes. Likely not, I think he takes much more inspiration from the anime than people give him credit for, i.e Ash's Pikachu, who's male.

Regardless, Pikachu's placement on the tier list so far has me really excited. Also, Charizard is my main...so you can see why. Charizard isn't A tier by any means but placing him next to Mii Swordfighter is complete bulls**t. I still think he's one of the better heavies. In any case, Charizard and Pikachu are my main characters I always play, mostly because Pikachu was my main in 64, Melee, and Brawl. (Trivia, Pikachu was considered S Tier in N64. Yep, that game has an official tier list)

But now that Charizard is free from the Trainer's clutches (at the sad expense of Ivysaur and Squirtle), I use him as my main pick with Pikachu on speed dial whenever I gotta go fast. If I'm going up against Diddy or Shiek I pike Pika, if I go up against Bowser or Rosalina I pick the Zard. It's good to have options. I'd normally try to work Bowser and Dedede in there, but their poor matchups are also Zard's poor matchups.
 

Angiance

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Pikachu has everything: good normals, good smashes, good aerials, good specials, powerful comboes/extensions, and many KO setups-personally, I think he needs his damage output nerfed by a lot♡
 

Legato

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Pika has one of the best uairs ever for combo extending; I love that uair to death. If spaced right you can't get hit by Marth's counter <3. Makes juggling him way easier because that isn't a concern anymore.

That's why I'm surprised more people don't recognize Pikachu as potentially being better than Sheik. Sheik is incredible, but I feel like Pika has more movement options along with equal strengths in the areas we just mentioned. I especially feel like Pika has so many options on battlefield or other platform like stages (Delfino is my baby). Then again, Pika doesn't have much representation besides ESAM at top level play, so it might just be that (as far as I know). Overall a very solid character that kills vertically and horizontally at reasonable percents.

Then again, Sheik's needles may make her better in campy MU's? I do like needles more than tjolt, and needles definitely make gimping Spacies very very easy.
 
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Pikabunz

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I think you guys overrate Pikachu a bit. His tilts are slower than average and he can't land with an aerial safely like most characters can. This can make it really hard to go aggressive on some characters. I don't see him as top 5 honestly.
 

Angiance

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Personally (not trying to be biased) to me, Pikachu is for sure #1; Pikachu wields not only a wild rate of attack, but is also extremely difficult to hit while being able to easily land a combo starter himself

Things that really seal the deal are Thunder with it's insane multi-use purposes, and F.Air with it's RIDICULOUS amount of utility

Pikachu possess things that every other character just outright lacks-buuuuuuuut in order to avoid accusation of bias...I'll tie Pikachu and Shiek for 1st♡♡♡

@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
Pikachu's F.Air, on it's 1st 2 or 3 hits, has his body stretched out a pretty ridiculous amount, and landing with F.Air places him further away on the ground than he is in the air-this makes Falling F.Air a legitimate aerial to land with if one is wise using it

Space with the frames that Pikachu's body is stretched out and pull back to avoid the final hit on shield-you will land about D.Tilt distance away if not further~
 
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Kaladin

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I think you guys overrate Pikachu a bit. His tilts are slower than average and he can't land with an aerial safely like most characters can. This can make it really hard to go aggressive on some characters. I don't see him as top 5 honestly.
Which tilts? The only even kind of sluggish one is ftilt.
 

Pikabunz

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@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
Pikachu's F.Air, on it's 1st 2 or 3 hits, has his body stretched out a pretty ridiculous amount, and landing with F.Air places him further away on the ground than he is in the air-this makes Falling F.Air a legitimate aerial to land with if one is wise using it

Space with the frames that Pikachu's body is stretched out and pull back to avoid the final hit on shield-you will land about D.Tilt distance away if not further~
Fast or ranged characters can still punish a spaced fair. The fact that fair is multi-hit and electric based just makes it easier for your opponent to prepare and punish it when you land.
Which tilts? The only even kind of sluggish one is ftilt.
Startup wise they're slow. Ftilt is frame 6, utilt is 7, and dtilt is 7. All of Mario's tilts are 5 frames which I think is average. Fox's uptilt has a frame 3 utilt and it sets up for kill moves and Diddy has a frame 3 or 4 dtilt and that sets up for stuff too. I know we have a frame 2 jab, but all that really does is reset situations and doesn't link into anything. If only it still tripped like it did in Brawl.
 

phili

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I kind of agree with @ Pikabunz Pikabunz here. Pikachu is my main, and I know ESAM thinks he is best in the game, but I can't see Pikachu being better than Sheik. Sheik's needles apply a lot of pressure and offers a superior camping game to Pikachu. They both have insane neutral games, but I think Sheik can hit shields a bit easier than Pika because her fair is easier to properly space than Pikachu's.

All this being said, I do think Pikachu is potentially second best in the game, especially after Diddy's nerfs. The only thing I believe that is holding him back is a small lack of range, but that can be made up for with speed (and QA).
 
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Angiance

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@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
It is punishable, but that is why I said "used wisely," because we could APPEAR as though we are about to perform a Falling F.Air but instead fastfall to the ground for a D.Tilt or a Reverse U.Tilt-the opponent being wary of our RIDICULOUS mix up game is highly likely to make them mess up at -some- point

D.Tilt/U.Tilt may indeed be a tad slower than the average tilt, but what they both posess is range, priority, a multitude of setups for a wide range of percents, and minor recovery lag-D.Tilt in particular allows us to have devasting ground control

@ phili phili
Pikachu's T.Jolt can be placed from a fh, allowing us to effectively move around as it's hitbox is active on the ground, and we can combo off of it too-Shiek, on the other hand, has to sit still the -entire time-
 
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Kaladin

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Ftilt is amazing. It clancks with a lot of fsmashes, which is just sooo good.
 

Pikabunz

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Better? I can understand "as good," but "better"? How so...
They're just faster characters than Pikachu. They move faster, they fall faster, and they attack faster. This gives them better mix-ups than Pikachu.
 

Angiance

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U.Tilt also clashes fairly well with other ground attacks and smashes-try it against Marth's F.Smash~

@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
I have to disagree with that...Pika's D.Tilt is a pretty wild attack, and then we have the ever so swift Up Air of ours (which can still pick up standing characters btw-yes, even Kirby)

I will stress once more the range of our attacks and include the meatiness of our hitboxes-those are hard to compare to

Combine the above with the fact that our aerials can auto-cancel directly into our powerful normals...

Now, I'm not saying we're faster or they're slower, but I disagree that WE are slower
 

Soul.

 
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Personally, I don't care about tiers myself. You get the point though.
The character is good alright, that's what it is. Diddy/Sheik still master race; Fox is pretty good too. I dunno. Faster characters have an advantage for being... well, fast.
 

JayWon

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Sheik and Fox have that option too and their mix ups are better.
Fox does not have that many mix ups whatsoever. Fox is a tier below Pikachu IMO. Our U-smash is on par (if not better cuz it's faster/less end lag) with his, our F-smash kills much earlier, and his recovery sucks.

Out of the entire cast, Sheik and Pikachu are the masters at having the most mixups/options at any time in the neutral. Yes, Shiek is one of the hardest MU for Pikachu but that doesn't mean Pikachu is not one of the best characters in the game.
Out of all the characters Pikachu has the most options/mixups out of a grab. Shiek gets great quality mileage off of her grabs but in terms of quantity of options/mixups, Pikachu has more at his disposal. Pikachu also has endless options/mixups to edgeguard.

TL;DR: Fox does not have that many mixups, Pikachu has the most options/mixups out of any character IMO, Shiek has a lot of options/mixups as well but not as much as Pikachu's but Shiek's options are more effective and better in quality.
 

phili

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@ phili phili
Pikachu's T.Jolt can be placed from a fh, allowing us to effectively move around as it's hitbox is active on the ground, and we can combo off of it too-Shiek, on the other hand, has to sit still the -entire time-
I know that you can follow FH t-jolts and it is a good approach option, but saying that sheik has to stand still while needling isn't 100% true. Sheik can true combo jumping needles into bouncing fish offstage. I do agree that since Pika has the option to run behind t-jolt while it moves along the ground, and therefore it is a better approach option. However, I'm saying that I think sheik has the superior camping game because of how fast needles are and that they do more damage (when charged) than a t-jolt does.
 

Pikabunz

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Fox does not have that many mix ups whatsoever. Fox is a tier below Pikachu IMO. Our U-smash is on par (if not better cuz it's faster/less end lag) with his, our F-smash kills much earlier, and his recovery sucks.

Out of the entire cast, Sheik and Pikachu are the masters at having the most mixups/options at any time in the neutral. Yes, Shiek is one of the hardest MU for Pikachu but that doesn't mean Pikachu is not one of the best characters in the game.
Out of all the characters Pikachu has the most options/mixups out of a grab. Shiek gets great quality mileage off of her grabs but in terms of quantity of options/mixups, Pikachu has more at his disposal. Pikachu also has endless options/mixups to edgeguard.

TL;DR: Fox does not have that many mixups, Pikachu has the most options/mixups out of any character IMO, Shiek has a lot of options/mixups as well but not as much as Pikachu's but Shiek's options are more effective and better in quality.
I think Fox is S-tier but everyone is sleeping on him. Fox's upsmash is faster and stronger than Pikachu's, but you're right about Pikachu's being less laggy. And Pikachu having a lot of throw options doesn't mean anything when none of them guarantee a ko. It's not like you can mix up your throws to throw off their DI either since you want to DI away from Pikachu for all his throws anyway.
 

Angiance

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@ phili phili
Dude...we can true combo a T.Jolt into U.Smash > Thunder for a quick 40 damage from 60%-100% or something

Apparently you all forgot about Thunder...we can literally do U.Tilt > fh U.Air > ah U.Air > U.Air > Thunder at lower percents for a good 35%+

Also: at higher percent, like above 100%, we have many comboes into Thunder: U.Tilt > Dash Under Them > Thunder; U.Throw > Thunder; D.Throw > Thunder

And then we have N.Air/D.Tilt for causing mistechs into Jab Locks into F.Smash, which is demoralizing and not THAT hard to setup...I mean, geez, c'mon guys...

@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
No matter how U.Throw is DId, you can still dash under and Thunder for it to true combo, plus you can D.Throw them at the edge and they will only go straight up from DIing towards the stage-unless they want to get D.Thrown offstage into a solo Cloud
 
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Angiance

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@ Pikabunz Pikabunz
What d'ya mean it lies? It's a -combo counter-...that's like saying the game's percent display lies...plus, even if it doesn't true combo, it's still a nice setup for Thunder
 

migul

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I storngly believe that Pikachu is the best character in the game. There was one thing that completely flew under the radar: Quick Attack. This is his best movement, gimping tool, and mixup tool easily.
 

Kaladin

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...Which is completely negligable compared to the rest of QA's awesomeness.
 

phili

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@ phili phili
Dude...we can true combo a T.Jolt into U.Smash > Thunder for a quick 40 damage from 60%-100% or something

Apparently you all forgot about Thunder...we can literally do U.Tilt > fh U.Air > ah U.Air > U.Air > Thunder at lower percents for a good 35%+

Also: at higher percent, like above 100%, we have many comboes into Thunder: U.Tilt > Dash Under Them > Thunder; U.Throw > Thunder; D.Throw > Thunder

And then we have N.Air/D.Tilt for causing mistechs into Jab Locks into F.Smash, which is demoralizing and not THAT hard to setup...I mean, geez, c'mon guys...
Nah I didn't forget about thunder. I was talking about sheiks camping game and neutral game. Thunder has 0 uses in neutral or as a camping tool so I didn't mention it.

Of course thunder is god-like in this edition of smash. The spiking cloud makes it one of the coolest looking moves I've seen in the entire smash series.

Anyway, whether we agree or disagree that pikachu is the best in the game, it seems like mostly everyone on this thread believes pikachu is S tier or somewhere really close to that. This is a great sign for us pika mains ;)
 

JayWon

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Fox has no mixup. He has no aerials to space himself with. He likes to stick to the ground walking/running back and forth and depend on his decent dash attack/grab. He is like the most gimpablr character, way easier and less riskier than trying to gimp Diddy/Ness/Shiek. B-air kinda wrecks fox's up special. He has good Jab mix ups against most characters but Pikachu can Jab right back and not get grabbed.

And every move is punishable if you use it too much but Jesus Quick Attack is one of the most luxurious move to have as a toolkit. and why is everyone adopting "if it ain't a true combo, it ain't viable" mentality? Yes, people have the ability to DI up-throw, just walk where they DI and then thunder. It may or may not hit but is it a good option that puts a lot of pressure? Probably. Not a lot of characters have true kill set up combos and if they do it's extremely percent/rage specific. Idk what you're expecting. Palutena has guaranteed lightweight down throw u-air kills. She must be SS-tier.

Maybe you personally just are not that good with Pikachu. Doesn't mean Pikachu isn't one of the best characters in the game because you personally haven't realized how high the potential of this character contains
 
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Angiance

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QA can be angled in 32 directions, true, but with any input you make, you must commit to it. It's not as flexible as, say, F.Air or U.Air
 

Pikabunz

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No one said upthrow to thunder wasn't viable. It was just saying it wasn't a true combo when someone said it was.
 

migul

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QA can be angled in 32 directions, true, but with any input you make, you must commit to it. It's not as flexible as, say, F.Air or U.Air
Except that 1) You need to hard read QA 3) Gimping QA is damn near impossible 4) QA will get you behing your opponent when used well, so you can throw out your fastest option first 5) QALC and 6) QA is so good 2 used it to zip out of the post.
 
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