Pikachu's Tier Placement

[Legato]

Well now, as a Fox main I'd like a say in this lol. Fox is definitely underrated atm. Larry Lurr definitely adapted very well to ESAM in their matches. Larry Lurr demonstrated that he could react to QA's and made it very obvious that he was going to punish it, he was very consistent with it too.

Fox is good, but there is one issue in the Pika MU that can be frustrating, Pika can land rather safely with her mix-up game. This means at high percents pikachu's best option is to shield. Fox mostly kills via bair, usmash, and uair. We don't have the best shield pressure either so shield is a very good idea since fox cannot kill off of grabs, especially since uair is so hard to hit on Pika.

It's hard to say really for me. Pikachu does have nice mix-ups, but I can see range being an issue. Fair isn't the safest on shield, but that is why I mix-up into FH fair--->QA if the opponent likes to space closely on the ground against me. I would argue he has perhaps the best mix-up game out of all the chars especially with platforms available.

 

[Uncle Honey]

There is a lot of bias in here. Pikachu is good, but no where close to being the best in the game and it surprises me how someone could think that given the facts. Pikachu is better than most of the cast because he has just about every tool a top tier character has except two things, kill potential and a good jab.

The fact is, against good DI Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kill moves unlike other characters commonly ranked high. Fast fall fair comes close, but that is anything but safe. Jab locking is nice, but any formidable opponent will tech. Argue thunder, gimps, and reads all you like but it won't change anything.

Pikachu's jab is indeed fast, but it does not lead into anything and can be unsafe at times. This makes Pikachu poor at covering the ending lag for his moves and removes a good shield poke option that most other characters have. This also makes spacing with Pikachu more important than others. Without going into extreme detail, a good jab is a key tool top characters have and Pikachu just doesn't have one.

There are a lot of cute tricks Pikachu can do that other's can't such as QAC and ducking under certain moves and projectiles, but it's not enough to ignore the two facts I mentioned above. Furthermore, most of Pikachu's hitboxes overlap or are very close to his hurtbox making some matchups poor and some trades difficult. Add in the sheer tech skill it takes to play the character correctly and that no one notable plays the character other than Esam I believe (tier lists are made from tourney results after all) and we have a character that's not as high as people in here think. Personally, I would place Pikachu at 5th being generous, but no higher.

 

[Angiance]

Grt wrecked noob //////

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

There is a lot of bias in here. Pikachu is good, but no where close to being the best in the game and it surprises me how someone could think that given the facts. Pikachu is better than most of the cast because he has just about every tool a top tier character has except two things, kill potential and a good jab.

The fact is, against good DI Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kill moves unlike other characters commonly ranked high. Fast fall fair comes close, but that is anything but safe. Jab locking is nice, but any formidable opponent will tech. Argue thunder, gimps, and reads all you like but it won't change anything.

Pikachu's jab is indeed fast, but it does not lead into anything and can be unsafe at times. This makes Pikachu poor at covering the ending lag for his moves and removes a good shield poke option that most other characters have. This also makes spacing with Pikachu more important than others. Without going into extreme detail, a good jab is a key tool top characters have and Pikachu just doesn't have one.

There are a lot of cute tricks Pikachu can do that other's can't such as QAC and ducking under certain moves and projectiles, but it's not enough to ignore the two facts I mentioned above. Furthermore, most of Pikachu's hitboxes overlap or are very close to his hurtbox making some matchups poor and some trades difficult. Add in the sheer tech skill it takes to play the character correctly and that no one notable plays the character other than Esam I believe (tier lists are made from tourney results after all) and we have a character that's not as high as people in here think. Personally, I would place Pikachu at 5th being generous, but no higher.

Yea you pretty muched summed it up...
Though I wonder if one of Pikachus moves such as TJ or QA were removed or something, would that severaly hurt Pikchu in notable ways? I mean think about it, if those two moves were nerfed badly and made extremely poor, would Pika still have Mixups and be dangerous?
Even if Pikachu is that good, it's not like he necessarily dominates many characters, IMO I'm sure characters like Peach, or Yoshi have tools that they could use to hold their ground.

What characters without a doubt, does Pika actually counter? Maybe someone like........well..... Idk actually, can't really think of one.

 

[migul]

There is a lot of bias in here. Pikachu is good, but no where close to being the best in the game and it surprises me how someone could think that given the facts. Pikachu is better than most of the cast because he has just about every tool a top tier character has except two things, kill potential and a good jab.

The fact is, against good DI Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kill moves unlike other characters commonly ranked high. Fast fall fair comes close, but that is anything but safe. Jab locking is nice, but any formidable opponent will tech. Argue thunder, gimps, and reads all you like but it won't change anything.

Pikachu's jab is indeed fast, but it does not lead into anything and can be unsafe at times. This makes Pikachu poor at covering the ending lag for his moves and removes a good shield poke option that most other characters have. This also makes spacing with Pikachu more important than others. Without going into extreme detail, a good jab is a key tool top characters have and Pikachu just doesn't have one.

There are a lot of cute tricks Pikachu can do that other's can't such as QAC and ducking under certain moves and projectiles, but it's not enough to ignore the two facts I mentioned above. Furthermore, most of Pikachu's hitboxes overlap or are very close to his hurtbox making some matchups poor and some trades difficult. Add in the sheer tech skill it takes to play the character correctly and that no one notable plays the character other than Esam I believe (tier lists are made from tourney results after all) and we have a character that's not as high as people in here think. Personally, I would place Pikachu at 5th being generous, but no higher.

Lack of Kill Potential: I would be a bit more accepting if this didn't involve customs, but it does, so this is completely false. Heavy Skull Bash not only kills very early, but can be used to punish stuff like landings. Also, not only does it kill early, but it's decently fast and can be set up easily from stuff like T-Wave.
Good Jab: Really dude? Sheik's jab sucks. So does Diddy Kong's. You don't need a good jab to be the best in the game; these characters have demonstrated that. Pikachu's jab is also useful as a way to throw your opponents off. Pikachu's jab is one of the fastest, and can bait a shield drop. Why would having a good jab even matter?
The thing about Pikachu that makes him stand out is how well he can do against a lot of top tier characters like Rosalina and Captain Falcon. They literally can't play their own game due to any of these 3 factors: 1) QA 2) His small size and 3) His outstanding edgeguarding. I don't know how this flew over your head.

Yea you pretty muched summed it up...
Though I wonder if one of Pikachus moves such as TJ or QA were removed or something, would that severaly hurt Pikchu in notable ways? I mean think about it, if those two moves were nerfed badly and made extremely poor, would Pika still have Mixups and be dangerous?
Even if Pikachu is that good, it's not like he necessarily dominates many characters, IMO I'm sure characters like Peach, or Yoshi have tools that they could use to hold their ground.

What characters without a doubt, does Pika actually counter? Maybe someone like........well..... Idk actually, can't really think of one.

Rosalina, Captain Falcon, a whole lot of low tiers. He doesn't really lose to anyone either.

 

[Angiance]

Y'all suck with Pikachu-he doesn't even need QA/T.Jolt, he has lagless tail attacks and a devastating F.Air-oh, but he also has some of the -best- smash attackd

 

[migul]

Lack of Kill Potential: I would be a bit more accepting if this didn't involve customs, but it does, so this is completely false. Heavy Skull Bash not only kills very early, but can be used to punish stuff like landings. Also, not only does it kill early, but it's decently fast and can be set up easily from stuff like T-Wave.
Good Jab: Really dude? Sheik's jab sucks. So does Diddy Kong's. You don't need a good jab to be the best in the game; these characters have demonstrated that. Pikachu's jab is also useful as a way to throw your opponents off. Pikachu's jab is one of the fastest, and can bait a shield drop. Why would having a good jab even matter?
The thing about Pikachu that makes him stand out is how well he can do against a lot of top tier characters like Rosalina and Captain Falcon. They literally can't play their own game due to any of these 3 factors: 1) QA 2) His small size and 3) His outstanding edgeguarding. I don't know how this flew over your head.

EDIT: Sheik has no kill potential if that's what your saying.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Y'all suck with Pikachu-he doesn't even need QA/T.Jolt, he has lagless tail attacks and a devastating F.Air-oh, but he also has some of the -best- smash attackd

Uh not really.
They are all pretty short ranged and some of them are laggy, his Dsmash doesn't really even KO and with that end lag and smal range, not that great.
Fsmash yes disjointed, but you need a good read to land and it has a bit of end lag too and still not the best range.
Usmash has to be sweet spotted literally next to him/on top of him and is otherwise rather weak, and it's range isn't anything to be scared of.

His smashes have the speed, but not the range and some of the end lag and dont KO til like above 100% right?

 

[Angiance]

His tail attacks are laggy? Idiot...

F.Smash has massive range and a pretty strong sweetspot, this makes it incredibly demoralizing to counter space someome with, or link from a jab lock

D.Smash is a multi-hit smash attack, making it incredible in certain situations

U.Smash is not only fast, but can be linked into-it nets us at least 30% since it comboes into Cloud

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

His tail attacks are laggy? Idiot...

F.Smash has massive range and a pretty strong sweetspot, this makes it incredibly demoralizing to counter space someome with, or link from a jab lock

D.Smash is a multi-hit smash attack, making it incredible in certain situations

U.Smash is not only fast, but can be linked into-it nets us at least 30% since it comboes into Cloud

Dude I have seen some of your other post with your rediculous attitude.

Dsmash has some of flaws, multi hit isn't going to compensate for it.
DI is possible, so that thunder ain't garunteed and you have to sweetspot the Usmash anyways.
Fsmash has merely average range, if it can be said to be average, I can't remember where the sweetspot is I think it's in the center of the jolt correct? But it still it's not the most terrifying.

 

[Angiance]

Hey, stupid, if you're going to counter state me then at least be legitimate about it instead of exaggerating weak points
#FakePikachuAlert

 

[Pikabunz]

Angiance, you need to chill. No need to insult people just because you disagree with them especially when he's right on some points. Dsmash is awful.

Lack of Kill Potential: I would be a bit more accepting if this didn't involve customs, but it does, so this is completely false.

Not every region plays with customs on.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Hey, stupid, if you're going to counter state me then at least be legitimate about it instead of exaggerating weak points
#FakePikachuAlert

Yea......I'm the stupid one.....
His smashes are good overall, but they are not close to the best.
They have their ups and downs and the downs, are something to worry about because they aren't something you can just use whenever and expect good results(who's smash attacks work like that anyways?)

Sorry pikabunz if I am to be the blame of all this

 

[Pikabunz]

Sorry pikabunz if I am to be the blame of all this

You're not. This is just Angiance being his usual self. He should really know better by now.

 

[Angiance]

...

F.Smash has range that rivals even Marth's range, and it's priority is high-this makes it a powerful snash attack because we can counter other attacks and perform pretty hard punishes

U.Smash, as I stated, is one of the quickest and most frightening vertical KO attacks-it also comboes into Thunder by 3-4 frames, you just need to be swift

D.Smash puts us fairly low to the ground, and can be charged-with it's multihits, this makes it extremely useful in -specific situations-, as I stated

Ex. we can dodge a high hitbox using D.Smash on reaction

 

[Kaladin]

Fsmash is the 3rd or 4th longnest reaching fmsmash in the game, next to Shulk, Rob, and maybe Marth. It's really good, particularly with low endlag and hitting below the ledge.

Usmash has insane killing potential in the sweetspot, and combos into bair or nair in the sourspot. This crap kills at 80% if you land it, which isn't all that hard to do.

Dsmash is good in specific situations. So is Falcon Punch. That does not make it a good move.

 

[Pikabunz]

Yeah, fsmash is better than most fsmashes. The range is nice and the end lag isn't that bad which makes is a great spacing tool against some characters. Usmash is like a wosre Fox usmash, but it's still great. It kills lighter characters as low as 80% with some rage and it's amazing for punishes which is something a lot of characters wish they had for a smash attack.

 

[isaiah :)]

i think the meta of ssb4 h

Fsmash is the 3rd or 4th longnest reaching fmsmash in the game, next to Shulk, Rob, and maybe Marth. It's really good, particularly with low endlag and hitting below the ledge.

Usmash has insane killing potential in the sweetspot, and combos into bair or nair in the sourspot. This crap kills at 80% if you land it, which isn't all that hard to do.

Dsmash is good in specific situations. So is Falcon Punch. That does not make it a good move.

at a certain percent range, Usmash to thunder works to start a string of combos if your opponent doesnt tech, and even then thats if you dont land the thunder spike.

His tail attacks are laggy? Idiot...

F.Smash has massive range and a pretty strong sweetspot, this makes it incredibly demoralizing to counter space someome with, or link from a jab lock

D.Smash is a multi-hit smash attack, making it incredible in certain situations

U.Smash is not only fast, but can be linked into-it nets us at least 30% since it comboes into Cloud

and your both right about Dsmash, it has several hit box's and can catch rolls, however it has terrible ending lag and average if not, below average range. overall its one of the most situational moves pika probably has, and Fsmash does have massive range, but its speed isn't exactly perfect, plus missing Fsmash allows for your range to be entended forward a bit, so if you go for it when your opponent goes for a move that takes priority, they have an advatage over the fact that Fsmash causes pika's range to increase just the slightest since he has to step forward, overall its best used to read moves.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Sorry if I might have Been giving Fsmash a bit of a bad range, I'm in school so obviously I can't see right now, I guess it's range is fine(Can it really hit below the ledge) How do you guys know it's like the 3rd or 4th longest reaching? It's info like this I want to find but can't :/
But how about implementing Reach?
I am correct that both range and reach are different things right?
Like falcon kick travels a good distance, but the range is......idk decent. That's what I mean
But like I said they area good,but not enough to just use at any time and expect something good to come from it.
I gussI might as well say this too, I'm 16 NOW, my birthday was yesterday, I can't really go to any Local tournaments
I can't drive, don't known my way around Beloit WI, so FG is ALL I have............it's so insulting I can't even play with friends because of the error code.
Come on universe anything else you wanna add to the cake? How about telling me that ICs will never make it back despite the fact they are one of the most requested characters, at least give me them please........*sniff*
I hate my life........I don't know where to start.
I'm into video games seining and animation.
I was thinking trying to find some decent FREE softwares that teach 2D design and look up tutorials about it.

 

[Angiance]

No, it will spike them into the upper section of the burst hitbox, so it's not possible to tech. At a certain percent range you'll have to dash under and quicly dj Thunder for it to true combo-from that point they won't even be able to DI far enough-and why does DI have to dictate the legitimacy of something anyways?

...It's a powerful combo, and even if it's -not- a combo, it is a magnificent setup-buuuuuuut I'm pretty sure it's a combo♡♡♡

@ Dee-SmashinBoss
Sir, calm v 4 serious

 

[Kaladin]

Sorry if I might have Been giving Fsmash a bit of a bad range, I'm in school so obviously I can't see right now, I guess it's range is fine(Can it really hit below the ledge) How do you guys know it's like the 3rd or 4th longest reaching? It's info like this I want to find but can't :/
But how about implementing Reach?
I am correct that both range and reach are different things right?
Like falcon kick travels a good distance, but the range is......idk decent. That's what I mean
But like I said they area good,but not enough to just use at any time and expect something good to come from it.
I gussI might as well say this too, I'm 16 NOW, my birthday was yesterday, I can't really go to any Local tournaments
I can't drive, don't known my way around Beloit WI, so FG is ALL I have............it's so insulting I can't even play with friends because of the error code.
Come on universe anything else you wanna add to the cake? How about telling me that ICs will never make it back despite the fact they are one of the most requested characters, at least give me them please........*sniff*
I hate my life........I don't know where to start.
I'm into video games seining and animation.
I was thinking trying to find some decent FREE softwares that teach 2D design and look up tutorials about it.

Idk about range/reach. The ball of Fmash reaches below the ledge if space properly, which can lead to getting kills at like 60%.

 

[isaiah :)]

assumed they both referred to the hit box, now CF sideB does travel a distance, but his reach(hitbox) stays with his body

and DI becomes everything in technicall play. but thats mostly in melee tbh all di does in this one is help to avoid combos

 

[Angiance]

I know DI changes some things, but you all make it sound like one should completely drop certain comboes and techniques because of it...

One of my typical attack strings is a D.Throw at low percents into the push hit of U.Air and then a fastfall to a D.Tilt in an attempt to reset my combo by linking the D.Tilt into a Dash Grab

The above is far from a true combo-does that mean it is ineffective?

 

[Thor]

I like dsmash against Rosalina and Luma since it's fast and can sometimes kill Luma outright [if I'm at low percents, I don't mind eating a Rosalina smash attack to be able to much more safely approach for the next 13 seconds]. It's also useful to punish whiffed grabs on reaction and it helps you win spotdodge battles [though you shouldn't get into those, they happen once in a while and simply waiting for their dodge and dsmashing lets you get the hits in].

I think it's still very punishable and not a great move, but I think it's something that's worth using once in a while.

 

[JayWon]

F-smash is great. Except against fast characters, I like to punish people trying to punish me for whiffing Pikachu's forward smash with another forward smash.

 

[Kaladin]

F-smash is great. Except against fast characters, I like to punish people trying to punish me for whiffing Pikachu's forward smash with another forward smash.

YES. I do this all the time.

 

[Angiance]

The fast character's might be able to move fast-yeah, right into my lightening spear

F>>>>>>>>>>>>Smash! x n x

 

[Legato]

There is a lot of bias in here. Pikachu is good, but no where close to being the best in the game and it surprises me how someone could think that given the facts. Pikachu is better than most of the cast because he has just about every tool a top tier character has except two things, kill potential and a good jab.

The fact is, against good DI Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kill moves unlike other characters commonly ranked high. Fast fall fair comes close, but that is anything but safe. Jab locking is nice, but any formidable opponent will tech. Argue thunder, gimps, and reads all you like but it won't change anything.

Pikachu's jab is indeed fast, but it does not lead into anything and can be unsafe at times. This makes Pikachu poor at covering the ending lag for his moves and removes a good shield poke option that most other characters have. This also makes spacing with Pikachu more important than others. Without going into extreme detail, a good jab is a key tool top characters have and Pikachu just doesn't have one.

There are a lot of cute tricks Pikachu can do that other's can't such as QAC and ducking under certain moves and projectiles, but it's not enough to ignore the two facts I mentioned above. Furthermore, most of Pikachu's hitboxes overlap or are very close to his hurtbox making some matchups poor and some trades difficult. Add in the sheer tech skill it takes to play the character correctly and that no one notable plays the character other than Esam I believe (tier lists are made from tourney results after all) and we have a character that's not as high as people in here think. Personally, I would place Pikachu at 5th being generous, but no higher.

After reading all of these, I think we should to be careful about selling Pika's tools short. Remember tiers are indicative of if a character that is fully utilized against another player of similar skill. In other words, ESAM vs ZeRo or ESAM vs Larry Lurr. Too bad there aren't any other top Pika's to mention yet, but I am hopeful. Pikachu is hard to figure out on a tier list because his skill ceiling is rather high and requires smart play. This is kind of similar to melee Fox though, who never hit top top tier until years after the meta developed.

I must contest placing Pika at 5th, and I'm not a Pika main (yet!). Pika has at worst even MU's with all chars (maybe not Rosa, but it is debatable). I would find it hard to believe that he is below Yoshi or Diddy, especially after the nerfs to Diddy. Short-range, yes. But Pika has more than enough movement options to make up for this deficit in the MU's if played smartly as a good Pika would.

Pika's jab is not the best, but not useless (jab locks). I would argue against lack of kill power for Pika. The main reason is because he has so many more options than others that it makes fsmash, thunder, and usmash harder to figure out if a Pika is going for one. I have never had issues killing with Pika actually. At most my opponents reach 140% and get killed on a bthrow or dash attack. Not to mention that a good Pika almost always reaches rage percents because of his large array of defensive options. Factor in heavy skull bash which is perfect for trading hits then it reduces even more safe options the opponent can utilize.

To say Pika doesn't kill like other chars leaves out the other half of the MU. The important questions really are: Does Pikachu have a harder time killing others than they do killing him? Does Pikachu combo on a char better than that char combos on Pika? Does the other char gimp Pika easier?

I would say, no, no, and no in general. Pika has one of the best combo games available, being out classed maybe only by Sheik. Can Sheik combo other characters by than Pika can combo that character? Sure, but this would mean nothing in MU data and is a bit less valid in determining tiers. For example, does Sheik combo Pika better? Not really, and this is valuable info. One aspect of a character does not define a character's position on a tier list, but instead that chars options compared to others in each MU. summed together.

Pikachu consistently lives as long as his opponent in each MU because of his options. The MU's where he might not, he makes up for by being able to combo and punish relentlessly hard (Ganondorf, DK, Charizard). This is how I measure tiers btw, since it integrates all character properties between MU's then sums the MU's together to find general placements.

 

[Angiance]

Okay, sorry, but I am like, sooooooooooo sick of you all saying
Pikachu has short range...

D.Tilt has fairly good range

U.Tilt has exceptionally good vertical range

F Air has an EXTREMELY large hit radius

U.Air hits stupidly high

F.Smash is among the longest horizontally ranged attacks

T.Jolt is stage length range wise

Thunder is cieling-to-ground

Dash Attack has good range...

Like, seriously, quit it with the short ranged stuff

Legato, I believe you've no grounds to build a statement regarding Pikachu's placing or capabily considering you have
little to no experience using him...

 

[Legato]

By short range it is to compare it to most of the cast. Pika loses to CF, lucario, Sheik, Marth, Ike, Lucina, Link, Little Mac, Bowser, DDD, Mew2, Ness (aerials only), Wario (aerials only, neut b also out-spaces dtilt), Mario (aerials and ftilt), Luigi (aerials and ftilt), and others. The longer ranged attacks of Pika are not ones that can be thrown out in neutral all whilly-nilly. So for example, yes fsmash is longer than many of the above chars" attacks, but it isn't an ideal spacing tool because of end lag.

While I might be new to Pika, I am a fast learner. If anything I said is untrue, then debate and state why it is wrong with support. I am willing to learn if I am mistaken about an aspect of my reasoning. Inexperience, in and of itself does not dissolve an argument. Inductions and support do. Besides, I have been playing this game since day one. Just because I am not a Pika main, does not mean I am inexperienced to the game's meta. I am aware of Pika's options, and play-style. I was hoping for more insights and discussions that help us understand the character by making this thread.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I played a ton of Pika in brawl (he was my secondary in that one), and I have found plenty of Pika's tech skill carries over. So I wouldn't say I'm an entirely fresh Pika player. Definitely far from the best.

 

[Angiance]

Nope...stop

D.Tilt outranges many of the cast's practical spacing attacks...F.Air is just plain nutty, and U.Air is also nutty

 

[Kaladin]

After reading all of these, I think we should to be careful about selling Pika's tools short. Remember tiers are indicative of if a character that is fully utilized against another player of similar skill. In other words, ESAM vs ZeRo or ESAM vs Larry Lurr. Too bad there aren't any other top Pika's to mention yet, but I am hopeful. Pikachu is hard to figure out on a tier list because his skill ceiling is rather high and requires smart play. This is kind of similar to melee Fox though, who never hit top top tier until years after the meta developed.

I must contest placing Pika at 5th, and I'm not a Pika main (yet!). Pika has at worst even MU's with all chars (maybe not Rosa, but it is debatable). I would find it hard to believe that he is below Yoshi or Diddy, especially after the nerfs to Diddy. Short-range, yes. But Pika has more than enough movement options to make up for this deficit in the MU's if played smartly as a good Pika would.

Pika's jab is not the best, but not useless (jab locks). I would argue against lack of kill power for Pika. The main reason is because he has so many more options than others that it makes fsmash, thunder, and usmash harder to figure out if a Pika is going for one. I have never had issues killing with Pika actually. At most my opponents reach 140% and get killed on a bthrow or dash attack. Not to mention that a good Pika almost always reaches rage percents because of his large array of defensive options. Factor in heavy skull bash which is perfect for trading hits then it reduces even more safe options the opponent can utilize.

To say Pika doesn't kill like other chars leaves out the other half of the MU. The important questions really are: Does Pikachu have a harder time killing others than they do killing him? Does Pikachu combo on a char better than that char combos on Pika? Does the other char gimp Pika easier?

I would say, no, no, and no in general. Pika has one of the best combo games available, being out classed maybe only by Sheik. Can Sheik combo other characters by than Pika can combo that character? Sure, but this would mean nothing in MU data and is a bit less valid in determining tiers. For example, does Sheik combo Pika better? Not really, and this is valuable info. One aspect of a character does not define a character's position on a tier list, but instead that chars options compared to others in each MU. summed together.

Pikachu consistently lives as long as his opponent in each MU because of his options. The MU's where he might not, he makes up for by being able to combo and punish relentlessly hard (Ganondorf, DK, Charizard). This is how I measure tiers btw, since it integrates all character properties between MU's then sums the MU's together to find general placements.

Hold up. Are you hacking? XD. Even right up to the ledge, I find that Uthrow kills earlier than Bthrow. Am I missing something?

 

[Legato]

I have never had that as the case, definitely always been bthrow, ah I neglected to say I am in rage lol. Does uthrow really kill before bthrow? I have never killed on uthrow or seen other Pika's do so.

Also, already tested dtilt's range extensively, that's kind of my hobby. I space char's together and check. I'll post the data sometime if you'd like it.

 

[Uncle Honey]

Lack of Kill Potential: I would be a bit...

I did write my post excluding skull bash and twave. These two moves are immense and help Pikachu's kill potential by a wide margin, but they don't change the reasons why I stated Pikachu has a hard time killing. Just because a move has a better risk/reward from a read doesn't change how it stills needs a good read to land. Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kills.

Sheik's and Diddy's jabs, albeit not the strength of Falcon's, still covers all of the functions of a good jab. Why would a good jab matter?

Pikachu's jab is indeed fast, but it does not lead into anything and can be unsafe at times. This makes Pikachu poor at covering the ending lag for his moves and removes a good shield poke option that most other characters have. This also makes spacing with Pikachu more important than others. Without going into extreme detail, a good jab is a key tool top characters have and Pikachu just doesn't have one.

Let's say you wiff a move, didn't space a shield poke aerial properly, a fast opponent is approaching you after an autocanceled aerial, or any other assortment of situations. The point is, Pikachu is either unsafe or being pressured. The only option Pikachu has in these types of situations is to shield or attempt a spot dodge/roll. Pikachu cannot jab because it is unsafe and does not lead to anything. Pikachu cannot put out any of his other moves because a grab or any assortment of opposing moves will either beat out or is faster than anything close quarters Pikachu has (ftilt/dtilt come out on either frame 6/7). Buffering a SH nair might work if the opponent is slow, but this is untrue for the entire top tier cast and let us not forget nair hitbox overlaps Pikachu's hurtbox. Sitting in shield is bad because grabs. This puts Pikachu in a read or be read situation with a spotdodge or a roll.

The things I'm mentioning can be demonstrated clearly in a match against a Falcon or a Little Mac. ZSS has a frame 1 jab (though I heard it was changed to be frame 2 in the patch) that she uses for all these things and more. Shiek's and Diddy's jab aren't as good as the above, but they still cover all the things. Pikachu's does not. Indeed, a good jab isn't a prerequisite to being number 1, but I am bringing up one of two tools that he lacks compared to the rest of the top tier cast. A jab, if all else fails, is supposed to be a characters safest move and Pikachu's should almost never be used outside of locks and ledge gimmicks.

 

[Kaladin]

I have never had that as the case, definitely always been bthrow, ah I neglected to say I am in rage lol. Does uthrow really kill before bthrow? I have never killed on uthrow or seen other Pika's do so.

Uthrow kills at ~210% from what I can tell. I have never in my entire Pika career killed with Bthrow, even at like 170% with rage. Im gonna have to try this in training later, cuz I have no idea what you people are talking about lol.

 

[Angiance]

...I wanna fight you all, so I can shut you up-just LISTEN to what I'm saying instead of trying to counter state

 

[Legato]

Uthrow kills at ~210% from what I can tell. I have never in my entire Pika career killed with Bthrow, even at like 170% with rage. Im gonna have to try this in training later, cuz I have no idea what you people are talking about lol.

I'll test it as well, I'm speaking from in the heat of a match so I have no clue how the DI'ing works on it. I do a lot of DI mix-ups so it is possible I killed because of that. I have always killed on the edge though, that is a given.

@ Angiance , I am not saying that Pika's spacing is non-existant, but Pika spaces in a different way. I definitely agree that a uair below most of the chars I listed will out-space their options in that situation. This is how Pika makes up for it, he can come at weird angles on opponents to try and out-space them. I am mostly looking at it from; if both chars short hop and use fair, which one hits first and takes priority. In this type of testing pika does not beat most at range with it. This type of spacing, is just the tip of the iceberg, and is just a start to understanding how a character MU should be played. In my mind, if you have to move in weird angles to get in on an opponent and space out their options, then I attribute that tool to movement options, not range. Though I can definitely see how it could be argued that this is an aspect of range and spacing instead of movement options. It is a little grey there.

It is Pika's ability to move around and force weird spacing opportunities that make him so good in my head as well. If that is what you mean by good range, then I would agree.

 

[migul]

I did write my post excluding skull bash and twave. These two moves are immense and help Pikachu's kill potential by a wide margin, but they don't change the reasons why I stated Pikachu has a hard time killing. Just because a move has a better risk/reward from a read doesn't change how it stills needs a good read to land. Pikachu cannot confirm into any of his kills.

Sheik's and Diddy's jabs, albeit not the strength of Falcon's, still covers all of the functions of a good jab. Why would a good jab matter?
Let's say you wiff a move, didn't space a shield poke aerial properly, a fast opponent is approaching you after an autocanceled aerial, or any other assortment of situations. The point is, Pikachu is either unsafe or being pressured. The only option Pikachu has in these types of situations is to shield or attempt a spot dodge/roll. Pikachu cannot jab because it is unsafe and does not lead to anything. Pikachu cannot put out any of his other moves because a grab or any assortment of opposing moves will either beat out or is faster than anything close quarters Pikachu has (ftilt/dtilt come out on either frame 6/7). Buffering a SH nair might work if the opponent is slow, but this is untrue for the entire top tier cast and let us not forget nair hitbox overlaps Pikachu's hurtbox. Sitting in shield is bad because grabs. This puts Pikachu in a read or be read situation with a spotdodge or a roll.

The things I'm mentioning can be demonstrated clearly in a match against a Falcon or a Little Mac. ZSS has a frame 1 jab (though I heard it was changed to be frame 2 in the patch) that she uses for all these things and more. Shiek's and Diddy's jab aren't as good as the above, but they still cover all the things. Pikachu's does not. Indeed, a good jab isn't a prerequisite to being number 1, but I am bringing up one of two tools that he lacks compared to the rest of the top tier cast. A jab, if all else fails, is supposed to be a characters safest move and Pikachu's should almost never be used outside of locks and ledge gimmicks.

If that's the case, why have I not seen ZeRo use Diddy's jab yet? Using Diddy's jab is unsafe as hell and gets you nowhere. As a matter of fact, JTails said using ZSS jab is rather unsafe. Not many characters have this amazing jab that you speak of. Most aren't as useful as you think. Mac's jab is extremely punishable, ZSS's is unsafe. Captain Falcon is the only one that has this "cover all" jab you speak of.
I could literally spam T-Wave to kill. Landing T-Wave isn't read based. I could use T-Wave as a way to cover ledge options to close out a stock. HSB is a punish, like that stupidly strong dash attack or an F-Smash (in certain MU)
Your argument seems a little baseless. I just took a lot of other opinions and meshed them together.

 

[Uncle Honey]

Diddy Kong can use his jab for all the reasons I stated, but his dtilt is a frame slower, leads to much more, has more range and is safer on recovery, ergo use it instead. JTails said using ZSS jab 3 was unsafe on shield which is true for roughly the entire cast. Jab 1 is much safer, but naturally shielding beats attacking fundamentally. Little Mac's Jab 1 is not punishable on shield and if it hits, it leads to damage. Furthermore, I guess I should have specified more clearly, jabs should be safe on-hit. Pikachu's jab isn't. In my previous posts, I meant that his jab as a neutral game tool is in no circumstance safe, even on hit. To put into perspective for you, fundamentally jabs should be grabs per the jab>grab>shield>jab triangle. Pikachu's doesn't.

You are correct about using Twave to confirm. My apologies. I will counter that the move has low range and becomes more unsafe the closer you are to your opponent which couples badly with how the stun duration is lower the further away the opponent is. I can bicker about how it clanks with moves and talk general projectile counter strategy, but yes it can be used to confirm.

Discussing HSB as a punish, albeit a mean punish, is moot here since if we're discussing punishes Pikachu's entire moveset is game.

 

[Angiance]

Yes, that is most definitely what I mean; a lot of Pika is stage control and baiting