Pikachu's Tier Placement

[migul]

Diddy Kong can use his jab for all the reasons I stated, but his dtilt is a frame slower, leads to much more, has more range and is safer on recovery, ergo use it instead. JTails said using ZSS jab 3 was unsafe on shield which is true for roughly the entire cast. Jab 1 is much safer, but naturally shielding beats attacking fundamentally. Little Mac's Jab 1 is not punishable on shield and if it hits, it leads to damage. Furthermore, I guess I should have specified more clearly, jabs should be safe on-hit. Pikachu's jab isn't. In my previous posts, I meant that his jab as a neutral game tool is in no circumstance safe, even on hit. To put into perspective for you, fundamentally jabs should be grabs per the jab>grab>shield>jab triangle. Pikachu's doesn't.

You are correct about using Twave to confirm. My apologies. I will counter that the move has low range and becomes more unsafe the closer you are to your opponent which couples badly with how the stun duration is lower the further away the opponent is. I can bicker about how it clanks with moves and talk general projectile counter strategy, but yes it can be used to confirm.

Discussing HSB as a punish, albeit a mean punish, is moot here since if we're discussing punishes Pikachu's entire moveset is game.

But it has more stun, allowing for stronger follow ups. It can even lead to that stupid Pika-infinite to wrap up a stock early. I guess that could be a sacrifice for less range, as there are 77 frames of stun in the close up T-Wave. (Personally I prefer T-Jolt, but this move is just mean.)

 

[Angiance]

Trust me when I say that T.Jolt is superior for it's massive range-this massive range makes it an insane landing trap if you shoot one after connecting a D.Tilt at higher percents

fh T.Jolt during the KO hunt is incredible since they lose a lot of their options as it is out, and it true comboes into U.Smash plus if they shield we get a grab

 

[Kenrawr]

Just wanted to say angiance is insufferable and a cancer to an otherwise great discussion.

-dip-

 

[Kaladin]

Just wanted to say angiance is insufferable and a cancer to an otherwise great discussion.

-dip-

@ Pikabunz

Let's not start any drama, alright?

 

[Pikabunz]

Just wanted to say angiance is insufferable and a cancer to an otherwise great discussion.

-dip-

Kenny please.

Btw, you should contribute to the matchup thread. You're a great Pikachu and you play against good opponents. We need someone other than ESAM giving advice especially because he's super biased about matchups.

 

[Kenrawr]

Ok prime bby I'm sorry.

I'm not much of a "write up" type of guy but I'll try to give more input when I get my pc fixed. Writing matchups on my phone got annoying

Reading my edit so prime doesn't sound crazy:

ESAM gives good advice. Just gotta read around the sensationalism.

 

[Pikabunz]

Yeah, he does. I didn't mean to make it sound like he didn't. We just need a second opinion on some matchups. It'd be nice to hear what you think about the Sonic and Luigi matchups.

 

[Angiance]

@ Kenrawr
***** please~♡♡♡♡♡

 

[Kenrawr]

So yeah, I have no idea where pikachu belongs on the tier list. I think that people over rate him based on "potential". Potential that we're not even sure is there.

It just feels too early to be discussing it tbh.

 

[Angiance]

@ Kenrawr
It's not potential, it's -fact-

A lot of these Pikachu have barely scratched the surface of understanding Pikachu-the best they have is technical info. None of these Pikachu have spit a single mind game, bait, trap, or etc.

 

[Uncle Honey]

But it has more stun, allowing for stronger follow ups. It can even lead to that stupid Pika-infinite to wrap up a stock early. I guess that could be a sacrifice for less range, as there are 77 frames of stun in the close up T-Wave. (Personally I prefer T-Jolt, but this move is just mean.)

I'll concede if the discussion leans more towards custom moves. I admittedly don't know the extent of their usage and viability in the game to discuss tier placement and matchups and I'd bet no one else really does either. I do know Pikachu's customs undoubtly make him a better character (a true statement for most of the cast) and that's about all I'm willing to say on the matter.

 

[Angiance]

@ U Uncle Honey
No; no they do not

 

[isaiah :)]

actually its just two customs that are great, but even then the custom the orignial Tjolt has much better range, and Heavy skullbash, i wouldnt say makes pika a better character, it just gives him one more earlier kill option, which honestly is great and is the best custom pika can have

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Both Thunder Wave and standard T-jolt are good. I use them for different MUs personally, but I feel like T-wave is overall better due to the ability to straight up kill people at 50-60%.

Without customs Pika is top 2
With customs Pika is top 1


Pika's kill potential is pretty good considering he can net kills really early off-stage with a lot of edgeguards with different spacings. His U-smash kills at 130% across the board, closer to 100% on some relevant characters like sheik and maybe even earlier with rage. Pikachu has AMAZING anti-airs in D-smash and U-tilt. His F_smash is incredibly strong and it's pretty easy to hit people's landings with it. Also, it is legit safe against a bunch of characters.

Pika's jab is amazing, wut. It doesn't lead to anything but it is legit safe against a decent amount of characters. Some can jab/tilt after they get out of it, but by that time they take ~10-13 and we refresh all of our moves. IT can push people off-stage which is fantastic.

Pikachu actually has A LOT of tech traps with SH dair, SH nair, and F-throw. Even against some of the best players I have been able to get jab locks (Such as M2K, Zero, Nairo, and MVD). With customs on that kills you at ~30 so LOL. Without customs you can get a dair or fair which can begin more combos and damage. Pikachu's combo game is really scary considering it also typically hits you off-stage where pikachu is the BEST in the game.

QA is 10000% the best move in the game. Not only does it allow Pikachu to avoid the majority of landing mix-ups thrown out by any character, but it is an AMAZING hit confirm and it gives Pikachu stage control for free. Most opponents have to shield when QA is thrown out since it can hit confirm into combos, so you can just move up barely and get free positioning.

Essentially the only thing he doesn't have is a kill throw.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I kinda feel like he's being too overrated but whatever, I don't know his customs well(very inexperienced on using customs anyway)
So eh, opinions are opinions

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

And mine have a lot of facts and experience behind them, so I think they are fairly correct~

 

[isaiah :)]

I kinda feel like he's being too overrated but whatever, I don't know his customs well(very inexperienced on using customs anyway)
So eh, opinions are opinions

i would agree with you if it wasn't true that pikachu's customs truely does make his potential a lot higher

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

i would agree with you if it wasn't true that pikachu's customs truely does make his potential a lot higher

But might I add that it does for most other characters?

 

[isaiah :)]

But might I add that it does for most other characters?

That may be true, but what im saying is, pika is already top tier and amazing, however he has Skull bash, which to be frack, blows, but HSB creates a lot of potetial for a character that is already amazing. in short, you're removing the one move(that is average and risky) from a character that has a stock of moves that are amazing and replacing it with another amazing KILL MOVE. you get what i mean?

 

[Angiance]

Just watch ESAM v MVD's Diddy @ Dee-SmashinBoss

 

[JayWon]

lol why are we putting so much effort in trying to defend how good Pikachu is? So funny cuz on Rosalina's forum, Rosalina mains do their best trying to sell how bad Rosalina is and how she's Top 10 at best (rofl wtf **** Rosalina players). I honestly don't mind people thinking Pikachu sucks, cuz it's better to surprise them with a solid victory. I'm more afraid of people hating on Pikachu cuz he's so damn good.

One thing I noticed is from a lot of the very high pro-level competitive viewpoints, whether from commentators like D1 or players like Zero/Nairo/Esam, they all put Pikachu very high Top 3 or 2. But from the viewpoint of people at a semi-competitive level who are not on a pro-level, tend to believe Pikachu isn't that good.

Kinda implies that on this whole argument where those who are arguing Pikachu isn't good, against those who are defending Pikachu claiming the high amount of potential Pikachu has, the latter seems to be more valid claim. In other words, Pikachu clearly has a very huge skill gap and unfortunately the vast majority of Pikachu mains (who most are familiar playing against) are simply not on the side where Esam is.

And to ALL those who ever complained about how hard it is to kill with Pikachu, all you are literally doing is announcing to the world how absolutely mediocre you are with Pikachu. I can definitely understand why people think Pikachu isn't that good because sure, some character's moves are clearly more cost efficient/effective than Pikachu's. Sure Pikachu's Jab may not be as good as Falcon's/Rosalina's, sure Fox's Up-smash may debatably be better, of course Ness's back throw is better and dang Zelda has a killer OOS option with her Up-special elevator (to even dream of Pikachu killing with his Up-special OOS is hilariously). These are all objective statements and it's fine to say those moves are better and its true that it's something Pikachu does not have. But a character's peak potential is ultimately determined by the amount of decent option a character has at its disposal. I honestly think Pikachu has the most options that are more than viable on neutral, out of grabs, gimping, recovery/landing, approaching options, playstyle, etc., out of any character including Shiek. It is true not all of Pikachu's option is as effective or potent like landing a D-throw -> 9 hammer with GnW. But I believe the sheer quantity of Pikachu's option more than makes up for some of the quality of effectiveness of great moves on other characters. I believe Pikachu has the toolkit capable of dealing with any situation or playstyle thrown at him.

TL;DR: You suck with Pikachu; You've only been playing against these Pikachu players that suck.

EDIT: Hey so you know how some of you think Fox is way better than Pikachu? And oh you know how almighty Zero is?
Remember that one time with that one dude Esam?

Obviously doesn't absolutely prove Pikachu is the best character but just a quick refresher for you to reconsider. GO ESAM! YOU ARE THE ONLY HOPE!

 

[Angiance]

What he said ^^^^

 

[Pikabunz]

I know ESAM is really good and all, but he hasn't done anything to prove that Pikachu is top 3. And I don't care what any "pro" players like Zero and Nairo think how good Pikachu is. I know this character better than they do and I'm good enough with this character to know what he's capable of. Also, I don't consider Zero's Fox or even DEHF's Fox to be top level. I don't really expect anyone outside of TX to think Fox is good though. Btw, I'm not claiming any of this as facts, it's all just my opinion. Keep thinking anyone who doesn't agree with a top player's views sucks.

 

[Angiance]

@ Pikabunz
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Salt_Lake

Pikachu is top 3

He has many powerful frame traps
Many powerful landing traps
Many powerful combo extensions and resets
Thunder alone is a monster offstage and for damage racking/KOing

You all need to understand that Pikachu is far more than a technical character. If you play Pikachu and try to rely on technical ability alone, you will only go so far

tl;dr get better, pls♡♡♡

 

[JayWon]

I know ESAM is really good and all, but he hasn't done anything to prove that Pikachu is top 3. And I don't care what any "pro" players like Zero and Nairo think how good Pikachu is. I know this character better than they do and I'm good enough with this character to know what he's capable of.

O.O
.
.
.

I know this character better than they do and I'm good enough with this character to know what he's capable of.

Holy crap, sorry! I wasn't aware nor was I quite familiar with your level of expertise. I only know Esam xD.
Can I see some VODs of your professional career?

 

[Pikabunz]

You guys give top players way too much credit. I actually main Pikachu and I'm pretty good with him too, so yeah, I do think I know the character more than any top player that doesn't even use him.

 

[Angiance]

I already said this: it's more about mental ability than technical ability

You may have technical knowledge, @ Pikabunz , but do you have fundamentals? Cause I'm pretty sure the top players have more fundamentals than you...

 

[Pikabunz]

I have fundamentals. Maybe not more than top players, but I do have them.

 

[Kaladin]

You guys give top players way too much credit. I actually main Pikachu and I'm pretty good with him too, so yeah, I do think I know the character more than any top player that doesn't even use him.

That's a fair statement, however top players have an overall better understanding of the game and the meta, and thus equal or more credibility imo.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'd still like to see some proof that Pikachu is top 3. All these claims from these top players is all just theory. We haven't seen anything big from ESAM since those invitationals back in Dec. Also, I think I deserve some credibility. I do go to tournaments very often and I do place fairly well. I don't think I'm that far off from top level.

 

[Kaladin]

I'd still like to see some proof that Pikachu is top 3. All these claims from these top players is all just theory. We haven't seen anything big from ESAM since those invitationals back in Dec. Also, I think I deserve some credibility. I do go to tournaments very often and I do place fairly well. I don't think I'm that far off from top level.

I believe you, but I'd like to see some of your gameplay to see exactly where you are. Are there any vids you could direct me to?

 

[Pikabunz]

I have tons of videos. Just search K Prime on youtube and you'll find them.
I also have tournament results right here: http://smashboards.com/rankings/pikabunz.54092/user?id=8

 

[Angiance]

Fine, I'm gonna make a bet: by 2016 (or ealier) we'll have an offical tier list-Pikachu being top 3. I bet you my studies~

 

[JayWon]

I have tons of videos. Just search K Prime on youtube and you'll find them.
I also have tournament results right here: http://smashboards.com/rankings/pikabunz.54092/user?id=8

Just saw

Okay Pikabunz aka K Prime. You have a really really phenomenal Pikachu man. Mad respect! You REALLY demonstrate the many options Pikachu has VERY well. I learned a lot! I'm nowhere near as good as you but I think I can offer one advice. I'm noticing you're not getting full mileage of Pikachu's B-air. I think most of the time you do use B-air it's only for landing and u-throw combo follow ups and edgeguarding; but I would like to see you abuse the full hop autocancel on B-air as a spacing tool to poke and fall back with it or land behind him. It out prioritizes Fox's N-air/D-air (I think F-air too) for sure and should make Fox players think twice in approaching you from the air. Just in general for all pika mains, spacing through spamming full hop auto cancelled B-air is difficult to deal with cuz of its ridiculous priority.

I'll be looking out for you and rooting for you always man!

Wish you were bit less pessimistic! You're soooooooo close in grasping that 1st place and I think your chances of attaining 1st place will vastly increase if you suppress your pessimism bruh

 

[migul]

You guys give top players way too much credit. I actually main Pikachu and I'm pretty good with him too, so yeah, I do think I know the character more than any top player that doesn't even use him.

Were you one of the only people that has taken a set off of ZeRo? And I hear Leffen has picked up Pikachu and has the same opinion as a lot of other top players. I don't see you constantly pushing the limits to Pikachu's abilities like ESAM does. (I'm not trying to sell your skill to be less than what it is, but I do believe there are more credible opinions in the mater.) I also main Pikachu, and have broken down his weaknesses to these 3 points: 1) You can struggle to kill with Pika, however he does kill surprisingly early. 2) He lacks range, but thunder jolt covers good distance. 3) He's light, but he's fast and small. Every weakness Pikachu has, there is always a however that makes it better than it would normally be. In comparison, Sheik has a hard time landing kill moves, just like Pikachu, but her moves kill much later and only one that kills decently early. She also can't begin to confirm a kill as low as 40%, unlike Pikachu. (I think you can tell where this is going.)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I know ESAM is really good and all, but he hasn't done anything to prove that Pikachu is top 3. And I don't care what any "pro" players like Zero and Nairo think how good Pikachu is. I know this character better than they do and I'm good enough with this character to know what he's capable of. Also, I don't consider Zero's Fox or even DEHF's Fox to be top level. I don't really expect anyone outside of TX to think Fox is good though. Btw, I'm not claiming any of this as facts, it's all just my opinion. Keep thinking anyone who doesn't agree with a top player's views sucks.

See people like you are so......like brave? You weren't scared whatsoever to give an opinion like that, especially in the way you say it, you have all my respect man
Plus to add, this game is basically half a year in play, less for WIIU, its gonna be long before the first official tier list is made, plenty of time to actually see many other characters full potential, what we think now could be far from correct in the future.

 

[Pikabunz]

Just saw

Okay Pikabunz aka K Prime. You have a really really phenomenal Pikachu man. Mad respect! You REALLY demonstrate the many options Pikachu has VERY well. I learned a lot! I'm nowhere near as good as you but I think I can offer one advice. I'm noticing you're not getting full mileage of Pikachu's B-air. I think most of the time you do use B-air it's only for landing and u-throw combo follow ups and edgeguarding; but I would like to see you abuse the full hop autocancel on B-air as a spacing tool to poke and fall back with it or land behind him. It out prioritizes Fox's N-air/D-air (I think F-air too) for sure and should make Fox players think twice in approaching you from the air.

I'll be looking out for you and rooting for you always man!

Wish you were bit less pessimistic! You're soooooooo close in grasping that 1st place and I think your chances of attaining 1st place will vastly increase if you suppress your pessimism bruh

I honestly thought you were being sarcastic at first, lol. But thanks for the praise and advice. I'll be trying out more FH bairs next time I play him. Btw, Megafox is by far the best player in our state. He makes Denti look scrubby and Denti is considered a top player by many.

Were you one of the only people that has taken a set off of ZeRo? And I hear Leffen has picked up Pikachu and has the same opinion as a lot of other top players. I don't see you constantly pushing the limits to Pikachu's abilities like ESAM does. (I'm not trying to sell your skill to be less than what it is, but I do believe there are more credible opinions in the mater.) I also main Pikachu, and have broken down his weaknesses to these 3 points: 1) You can struggle to kill with Pika, however he does kill surprisingly early. 2) He lacks range, but thunder jolt covers good distance. 3) He's light, but he's fast and small. Every weakness Pikachu has, there is always a however that makes it better than it would normally be. In comparison, Sheik has a hard time landing kill moves, just like Pikachu, but her moves kill much later and only one that kills decently early. She also can't begin to confirm a kill as low as 40%, unlike Pikachu. (I think you can tell where this is going.)

Leffen picking up Pikachu means nothing. He's not even a top player for this game. He plays Melee and Smash 4 is an entirely different game. All that Melee skill will not carry over. He may still be good though. I didn't even think he still played Smash 4. All I remember from him is his Diddy getting wrecked by some Luigi.

See people like you are so......like brave? You weren't scared whatsoever to give an opinion like that, especially in the way you say it, you have all my respect man
Plus to add, this game is basically half a year in play, less for WIIU, its gonna be long before the first official tier list is made, plenty of time to actually see many other characters full potential, what we think now could be far from correct in the future.

Thanks, man. Also I agree with you on the tier list thing. The game is still very young to even consider a tier list, but it's still fun to argue about this stuff.

 

[Nairo]

I know ESAM is really good and all, but he hasn't done anything to prove that Pikachu is top 3. And I don't care what any "pro" players like Zero and Nairo think how good Pikachu is. I know this character better than they do and I'm good enough with this character to know what he's capable of. Also, I don't consider Zero's Fox or even DEHF's Fox to be top level. I don't really expect anyone outside of TX to think Fox is good though. Btw, I'm not claiming any of this as facts, it's all just my opinion. Keep thinking anyone who doesn't agree with a top player's views sucks.

I'd like to see where I said pika was top 3 myself lol wtf (Also if larry isn't a "top" fox then may I ask who is a "top" fox)

 

[Pikabunz]

I'd like to see where I said pika was top 3 myself lol wtf (Also if larry isn't a "top" fox then may I ask who is a "top" fox)

I was just going by what @ JayWon said. And Larry is a very good Fox, probably 2nd best. But Megafox is miles better. He's what a true top Fox player should play like. /regionbias

 

[Angiance]

You are all silly-you know Pikachu is too cute to deny top 3♡♡♡♡