Pikachu

[Robert of Normandy]

Nope. I just find the concept to be as dumb as replacing Sheik with Impa.

It's dumber, actually.

 

[Deleted member]

It's dumber, actually.

I'll admit, yeah, this concept makes Impa replacing Sheik seem like Einstein's work...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Still better than Dr.Mario and Waluigi.

 

[bubbaking]

Apparently, people get ridiculously upset when people speak their minds with suggestions.

Samus turning into ZSS is incomparable, as unlike the Raichu idea, she can change back.

Uhhh, not if you're playing the game competitively. Let's face it. Everyone is hoping that Smash 4 ends up being way better competitively than Brawl ended up being, so that one doesn't have to hack his Wii in order to hold a non-fraudulent tourney. Without items, Samus can only change to ZSS and not the other way around. It's literally exactly the same, except it's BS because a Low Tier char turns into a High Tier char in seconds without any prerequisites required, and she even gets broken items along with that. Samus/ZSS is comparable and worse.

AND a disservice to Pikachu mains, who pretty much have to learn Raichu instead since getting a Final Smash means no more Pikachu.
Samus mains at the bare minimum had to learn enough about ZSS to not suck as her until they got another Final Smash. And even if they DID suck as her, well, there's always the Pity Final Smash...

What? There's no RELEARNING! Raichu would have pretty much the same moveset as Pichu and Pika. If anything, he'd be better because his moves would be faster and/or stronger with better effects. Also, I never specified how exactly Pichu/Pika would evolve, and I'm thinking that it actually shouldn't be through a FS because that would be extremely limiting and would probably punish someone for efficiently building up XP quickly.

And unlike your idea, it's not drastically changing an established Smash character to the point that the original character is just a gateway for some newer nobody, while PT was new to begin with.

It's practically an expansion of the transformation mechanic that was introduced in Melee with Sheilda, and it's worse because it forces an ultimate dependency on transforming, which is nothing short of dumb. As I already said, Pika would be available as a standalone, which would be balanced because by choosing him, one would miss out on the weaker Pichu but also the stronger Raichu.

And you don't really understand what is being changed. Raichu is more than just a different appearance, which I don't think you comprehend. Raichu is larger. Raichu is heavier. For balance, Raichu would be SLOWER to accompany being stronger. Even if moves are the cloned, it would still be different gameplay, which is something you clearly don't understand. There's a reason why the clones in Melee are not the same tier as their counterparts.

Ok, please stop making assumptions that probably aren't true, let alone definite! Yes Raichu is probably larger, but CANONICALLY, he's faster and better than Pika. Don't give me that crap that he has to be slower just because he's bigger and stronger. The point of this evo mechanic is that one would struggle as Pichu and fight on with Pika in order to gain access to the ultimate buff, which is Raichu. This would be balanced and it wouldn't change gameplay outside of adding some nice perks, such as a better CC game and improved punishment options.

As for another point, an evolution system would be better off for a new Pokemon character, not butchering an established character by adding an unpopular tag-along that it doesn't need.

I'm not even going to argue this one. To be perfectly honest, my entire idea was just giving a possible way for Pika's evolution into Raichu to be facilitated. I'm not even the one who originally suggested that Raichu should be Pika's FS.

Tl;dr - Stop making assumptions. Raichu's practically the same as Pika and wouldn't be a nerf or a playstyle-altering change in any way.

I just find the concept to be as dumb as replacing Sheik with Impa.

Actually, the idea of replacing Sheik with Impa was suggested on the Sheik sub-forum of the SSB4 Char Discussion threads, and it was accepted wholeheartedly by almost everyone. Sheik is no longer relevant, people! She was only in LoZ: OoT, which was way before Melee's time! Impa, on the other hand, was in EVERY LoZ game and she had a major role in the latest one, SS. She also has two ninja-esque models to draw from (OoT and SS).

 

[Deleted member]

And canonwise, Mewtwo has a far superior Speed stat than Pikachu, yet Pikachu is much faster in Melee in attack speed and movement speed.
In Star Fox, Wolf is the fastest of the three that are in Brawl. In Brawl, he's the slowest.

So really, the one making assumptions is you.

Especially at the last part, which clearly, you made up.
I'm looking at the Sheik sub-forum RIGHT now.
The idea is panned by the ones that actually discussed it, even by the one that first brought it up. There is quite literally only once person in the thread that actually claimed support the idea, but at the same time, he supports Ganondorf being replaced by Ghirahim for the same relevancy bull.
And really, you have no fricking clue what you are talking about. Impa is not in every Zelda title.
The only titles she's in are
Legend of Zelda (manual only)
Zelda II: Adventure of Link (manual only)
Ocarina of Time
Oracle of Seasons/Oracle of Ages
Skyward Sword

with a cameo from her OoT self in a stained glass window in Wind Waker along with all the other Sages from the game.


I swear, I hate it when people make claims without doing the bloody research.

 

[~automatic]

Take your icky Sheik discussion to the Zelda/Sheik thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

^ Exactly. How much I'd like to jump in, Sheik's irrlevance is unfortunately irrelevant here.

Anyway, about the evolution: yes, Pichu / Pikachu / Raichu would pretty much have the same moveset.

Pichu would easily adopt his Melee moveset, and thus have his only unique move as the awesome Up Smash of ultimate destruction. He'd furthermore keep the gimmick of hurting himself. He's not supposed to be good, but he should have a little bit of a range buff though.

Also a cool Pichu-only thing is when Pichu lands with his Quick Attack on the ground, he'll automatically dash the direction he's going for about 2 seconds with double the speed as usual. This is even jump cancable. Makes his recovery FAR LESS punishable. And actually gives Pichu a fighting chance to evolve to Pikachu.

And I really liked the idea of Raichu cause I'd imagine he'd play like N64 Pikachu. So Raichu would IN MY HANDS, have a few different moves namely: the forward throw, Neutral Air and Back Air (Forward Air also would work like Pika's in N64). And he'd basically play as a stronger, even slightly faster Pikachu (meaning, running speed wise, attack speed would be the same roughly). Raichu would basically be the upgrade you'd feel from Pichu switching to Pikachu, so he'd possibly be extremely good. That's why he's a sort of 'reward' character, for doing so much your best training your little Pichu.

As I said a couple of pages back, Pikachu imo should be a little lighter and smaller himself, and have a new Side B, and a Quick Attack with 3 jumps. This side B will be shared by all of the characters, but to make it cooler and flashier, make this move have more dramatic changes than any other move while evolving between Pichu / Pikachu / Raichu. Possibly even make it strongest when using Pichu, and weakest when using Raichu.

Neutral B can now also be charged by both Pikachu and Raichu. Though Pikachu's is slightly faster, but weaker. This is the only real disadvantage Raichu has, as Raichu is supposed to be a more 'brawler' kind of character than Pikachu.

Anyways, I'd totally second main this character if it where to become playable like this. Though it's probably only a pipe dream, it'd be the best thing ever to bring Pichu back.

And to balance the character and the evolution, Pikachu could only evolve into Raichu on the last few stocks. When it's entirely possible for Pichu to evolve before losing a stock, Pikachu should only evolve if he's either on his last stocks, his team is at a disadvantage, or lose 2 stocks in a row or similar. Say if you'd have 5 stocks, assume you'd only play with him Raichu 1~2 stocks max, if your lucky.

ichu: ikachubrawl:

 

[bubbaking]

And canonwise, Mewtwo has a far superior Speed stat than Pikachu, yet Pikachu is much faster in Melee in attack speed and movement speed.
In Star Fox, Wolf is the fastest of the three that are in Brawl. In Brawl, he's the slowest.

Get your facts straight. Wolf is MUCH faster in the air than both Fox and Falco. His horizontal air speed is much greater than both of them (he has the 4th highest air speed in the game) and his falling speed is faster than Falco's and very slightly slower than Fox's (also has the 4th fastest falling speed). Mewtwo is slower than Pika because, as a STANDALONE, he needs to be balanced. Pichu/Pika/Raichu would have been balanced through the weaker Pichu and the stronger Raichu. It's really quite simple. Just tweak those two to make the overall whole balanced. How the heck do you think Sheilda and PT were balanced? Each part of the whole was tweaked so that the whole entity wasn't OP. Obviously, Sheik was too powerful in Melee, so she was weakened to keep Sheilda from being too strong in Brawl.

So really, the one making assumptions is you.

Especially at the last part, which clearly, you made up.
I'm looking at the Sheik sub-forum RIGHT now.
The idea is panned by the ones that actually discussed it, even by the one that first brought it up. There is quite literally only once person in the thread that actually claimed support the idea, but at the same time, he supports Ganondorf being replaced by Ghirahim for the same relevancy bull.

No, I did not make that up, but I was mistaken. This was on the Toon Link sub-forum, not the Sheik one. Here, would you like a link?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15046411#post15046411
Or if you want, I could just compact the whole convo right here.
[collapse=Impa]

Tbh, I'd actually like for more pokes to be added, and I'd also like for the PT Pokemon to be separated. As for LoZ chars, I can't really see many other chars with enough diversity and room for expansion to be added. For me, I'd like Impa to become a character. She's recently seen a lot of action in Skyward Sword, and an incarnation of her has constantly been in nearly every very LoZ game. Also, if MM is really re-done, perhaps Link and YL/TL could be combined into the MM Link (all the masks + Fierce Deity)?

So you'd be okay with like 6-7+ slots for different Pokemon? Just curious.
Also, the Zelda suggestions seem good, especially Impa. But honestly, Skull Kid would be great. I think if they do remake MM for 3DS it should be Skull Kid to get in rather than Masked Link.

Besides how unique and awesome his moveset would be, here are some other reasons:
For one, he'd have the same problem, as TL. The fact that he's Link and that's annoying. Secondly, Skull Kid is more recurring than Impa/MM Link. He's not just from MM. He's in at least Oot and TP too. Come to think of it, he is also sort of marionette-like, and could be a sort of happy medium for the few Geno fans.

As long as the Pokemon are radically different, I could support that many slots being given to the Pokemon. We already give six (eight if you count DK and Diddy) slots to Mario series chars. Also, Impa is definitely more recurring than the Skull Kid. She's been in nearly every LoZ game, including the 2D ones. You may not have recognized her, because she wasn't always the slim/muscular Impa that we recognize from OoT and SS.

I actually was just talking about Masked Link, but for some reason I wrote Impa as well. I honestly have no explanation for that other than I wasn't paying much attention. You're right, Impa is in a lot of Zeldas. Impa would be cool. But she may be very Sheik-like.

Depends on which Impa you use. OoT Impa, yes, because that is what Sheik was based on, but SS Impa was very different and had some cool moves, such as a large force field and that Rasengan-like move that blew up when it hit the ground.

IMPA!

*bro fist*

[/collapse]
As you can see, everyone involved in that exchange wanted Impa. As a side note, the subject was also brought up on the Zelda sub-forum and the idea wasn't looked down upon in the slightest (three people supported it and no one disagreed with it).
Here's a compact convo for that if you'd like.
[collapse='More Impa']

I wouldn't be surprised if Zelda was completely redesigned both visually to look like the new Skyward Sword Zelda and moveset wise. Shiek can be replaced with impa or w/e that ladies name was and Zelda will be her own character for once.

If they do that I will miss TP Zelda though, new one is too young imo.

But I like Sheik, even if she's no longer present in the storyline outside of OoT. If anything, they should keep a Sheikah representative, especially since Sheikahs are present in Skyward Sword.

I'm all for Zelda for being a standalone character. The problem I always felt with Zelda/Sheik and Samus/Zamus is that they were meant to complement each other, but switching was always so inefficient that it was easier to stay as one character or the game was heavily in favor of one or the other.


Impa's our next choice. I say Sheik should be an unlockable alt. though to keep everyone happy.

Dat DLC!

[/collapse]
Yes, I obviously do my research because I was part of those discussions. Sheesh!

And really, you have no fricking clue what you are talking about. Impa is not in every Zelda title.
The only titles she's in are
Legend of Zelda (manual only)
Zelda II: Adventure of Link (manual only)
Ocarina of Time
Oracle of Seasons/Oracle of Ages
Skyward Sword

with a cameo from her OoT self in a stained glass window in Wind Waker along with all the other Sages from the game.


I swear, I hate it when people make claims without doing the bloody research.

That's still way more appearances than Sheik, buddy, and that's still more "ninja" appearances than Sheik too. Don't try and belittle the issue with something so trivial as how many titles Impa appeared in. The very fact that she appeared in more than one already goes to prove what I'm saying. Going by recent material, Impa just makes more sense in every way than Sheik. She can even have the same exact moves, if you want.

 

[SmashShadow]

I can't deal with that much change...

I want to play as Pikachu solely because to me he's always been that character that could evolve but chooses not to just like Ash/Red's. And what's to stop this from being implemented on all the pokemon. It just seems to take away from the individuality of that Pokemon trying to fill a gimmick.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, as I said, I only suggested that mechanic to offer an avenue through which Raichu could be accessed since someone else had already suggested evolving into Raichu through an FS and that proposal was immediately shot down. Yes, as you stated, this mechanic could be applied to any Pokemon, and actually.....it could possibly work well on Lucario (Riolu), seeing as how he already has a 'cumulative mechanic'...

And I really liked the idea of Raichu cause I'd imagine he'd play like N64 Pikachu. So Raichu would IN MY HANDS, have a few different moves namely: the forward throw, Neutral Air and Back Air (Forward Air also would work like Pika's in N64). And he'd basically play as a stronger, even slightly faster Pikachu (meaning, running speed wise, attack speed would be the same roughly).

Hmmm, interesting... I can see how those kicks would work with his big feet.

 

[SmashShadow]

Also all this Impa talk reminds me of http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=326217&page=10

Page 12 got especially heated

 

[bubbaking]

You just got me involved in that convo. I hope you're happy!

 

[Deleted member]

Get your facts straight. Wolf is MUCH faster in the air than both Fox and Falco. His horizontal air speed is much greater than both of them (he has the 4th highest air speed in the game) and his falling speed is faster than Falco's and very slightly slower than Fox's (also has the 4th fastest falling speed).

I never mentioned air speed, which is irrelevant to this current discussion.
My point was that Wolf ON THE GROUND is slower than Fox and Falco, when in Star Fox canon, Wolf should be much faster.

Mewtwo is slower than Pika because, as a STANDALONE, he needs to be balanced. Pichu/Pika/Raichu would have been balanced through the weaker Pichu and the stronger Raichu. It's really quite simple. Just tweak those two to make the overall whole balanced. How the heck do you think Sheilda and PT were balanced? Each part of the whole was tweaked so that the whole entity wasn't OP. Obviously, Sheik was too powerful in Melee, so she was weakened to keep Sheilda from being too strong in Brawl.

Then that takes away from why people liked Pichu to begin with by only making him a "weak Pikachu".
Pichu is the joke character that while it hurt itself and was the lightest character in the game, it still packed quite a punch in its moves that Pikachu did not.
So not only is Pikachu being screwed over, but now what gave Pichu its charm is being compromised as well. GREAT IDEA.

No, I did not make that up, but I was mistaken. This was on the Toon Link sub-forum, not the Sheik one. Here, would you like a link?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15046411#post15046411
Or if you want, I could just compact the whole convo right here.

As you can see, everyone involved in that exchange wanted Impa. As a side note, the subject was also brought up on the Zelda sub-forum and the idea wasn't looked down upon in the slightest (three people supported it and no one disagreed with it).
Here's a compact convo for that if you'd like.

Yes, I obviously do my research because I was part of those discussions. Sheesh!

Half of those messages are by you.
88Hex also never said anything about REPLACING Sheik. Just that he likes the idea of Impa in the game. And I'm going to be honest, Impa as a standalone without affecting Zelda/Sheik is fine with me.
Diddy is heavily anti-Sheik, so that's one that actually WANTS the change to happen.
GodAtHand was saying he wouldn't be surprised if it happened, but he's not saying he wants it (nor is he saying he doesn't).
Kuma is saying he wants Zelda and Sheik to be seperated in general. Whether it remains as Sheik or replaced as Impa doesn't matter to him either way; just that Zelda is standalone and Sheik's moveset is preserved somehow.

Really, you need to start actually paying attention to what is being said instead of assuming things.

That's still way more appearances than Sheik, buddy, and that's still more "ninja" appearances than Sheik too. Don't try and belittle the issue with something so trivial as how many titles Impa appeared in. The very fact that she appeared in more than one already goes to prove what I'm saying. Going by recent material, Impa just makes more sense in every way than Sheik. She can even have the same exact moves, if you want.

Except that relevance isn't worth jack ****.
Impa on technicality had more appearances in Melee's time, yet Sheik was the one that got in. Even when Impa appeared in the same game. Sheik was horribly irrelevant in Brawl's time, and Sheik was not removed then.
Why does Impa having a newer appearance magically make her better to replace who essentially is Zelda? Yeah that makes a lot of sense; take out an alter-ego of Zelda and instead make her trade places with someone else just for the sake of relevancy.
I mean, it's not like Sheik hasn't made any recent appearances or cameos/references...
I mean, aside from OoT getting a remake for the 3DS, as well as a costume for characters in Tekken Tag Tournament 2 Wii U Edition and a summonable appearance in the Wii U version of Scribblenauts Unlimited.
Yeah, Sheik is horribly irrelevant to the world.

 

[SmashShadow]

Hey Golden, we're taking this to that thread i linked before all hell breaks loose on the Pikachu thread.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't really feel like replying with another long post, but you should go to that link SmashShadow posted and go back a page. There are a whole crapload of people, whom I didn't know about, supporting Sheik being removed and being replaced by Impa. Even if you don't go back a page, the last post (#126) states the same idea. I'm not the only one who thinks Sheik should be removed because she's irrelevant, and I'm definitely not the only person who would like Impa to replace her.

Edit: Ninja'd partly by SmashShadow

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty much done with this discussion, anyway. I've already made my points on the crap idea and the bull**** concept of relevance.

EDIT: Esepcially since most of your "proof" did not say what you thought they said.

 

[~automatic]

You two should have dueled. Loser leaves this thread for the Shadow Realm.

 

[bubbaking]

I'd prefer the Dark World. Seems more "relevant".

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fact remains that Pichu / Pikachu / Raichu will always stay relevant.

 

[Orange Fox]

I main Pikachu as well as Fox, and I would be unhappy with a forced evolution system with Pikachu. It's like a Samus main getting forced into ZSS after a Smashball or ko, if they main Samus and not ZSS it would be a disaster.

If there were any type of evolution or change, then it should be optional or controllable. Like Samus or Zss, one can just avoid the Smashball. With PT, you are forced to change after a KO but you can always change back. Plus, Nintendo has so many better character options than adding Raichu or re-adding Pichu. I don't see it happening

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I never said it wouldn't be optional/controllable. In fact, I was thinking making the command to evolve something along the lines of one of the directional taunts.

 

[Diddy Kong]

No it's not 'forced' at all, just a extra add to the character. Regular Pikachu would also still be playable without evolution, as said before. Picking Pichu only adds on a little risk factor, for those more experienced with the character. And what you get as a reward in the end? Raichu.

Pikachu would still be the main character during the battle though. As you could evolve from Pichu quite quickly if your skilled, and Raichu would only appear if your losing stocks. It's a way to turn the tides of battle around, so to say.

 

[Orange Fox]

If it's optional/controllable then it basically sounds like another Shiek/Zelda type of character. Doing this with Pikachu would be possible but as I said they have many better character options imo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sure, but it's a lot better than having Pichu as an own playable character spot. I kinda missed Pichu, so I thought of this. And I liked it. It's not really like Zelda/Sheik other than the fact that you can select the character on the Select Character screen. Evolution is also permanent. And it wouldn't really take a character spot anyway.

 

[Orange Fox]

I'm saying it will take time to still create the character. When there are so many other characters that should be in the game

 

[Diddy Kong]

I slightly disagree, as there are not too many characters left 'worthy' of being playable in Smash. Sure there's the likes of King K.Rool, Toad, Riley, Mewtwo, Takamaru, Little Mac and a couple of others, but I cannot name a big list of 20 characters no more like I could pre-Brawl.

Besides, lots of people are suggesting alternatives to characters nowadays, like Dr.Mario to Mario as a pallate swap with a few different moves. I went a little deeper on those thoughts, and thought of this. It would still take less time to program than most other real newcomer characters (as Sakurai said, that in the time he made the 6 Melee clones he could've finished King DeDeDe if he wanted). And personally, I like alternations of characters.

People are also suggesting alternative moveset options for characters. Say, Fox, with a different blaster (say one like in Melee/Brawl and one with Falco / Fox N64 hitstun for example) or Ike using the Urvan axe instead of his sword Ragnell. Every character could perhaps have different options, and Sakurai said in an interview that characters will have new abilities, and eveything will be different this time around. Coupled with the fact that we know next to NOTHING about this game, we could speculate on anything for the time being.

 

[Diddy Kong]

 

[Pikabunz]

It took 14 years to lose 10lbs? That's not inspiring at all.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pikachu looks smooth. Not much else to say.

 

[Sunnysunny]

What's funny about diddy kongs post is Pikachu looks significantly skinnier in brawl. Pikachu put in the work!

Wii fit trainer vs Pikachu 0/100 MU.

 

[SirGalvan]

It took 14 years to lose 10lbs? That's not inspiring at all.

made me laugh so hard

im hoping pikachu gets a new final smash the last one was so difficult to control....im thinking maybe using elecroball instead

 

[Carlo_H.Luz]

Smash Bros series has a great balance. Every character has a chance and there is no one overpowered character. Maybe some annoying ones, like PIKACHU!! I hate that stuffed yellow ball, with shield breaking smash attacks and that trolling thunder. Maybe making him a little bit less powered??

 

[Meta Knight X12]

made me laugh so hard

im hoping pikachu gets a new final smash the last one was so difficult to control....im thinking maybe using elecroball instead

I'm hoping it would be different as well since I also had a hard time controlling his final smash. I don't got any bright ideas at the moment however.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I always wanted Pikachu's Final Smash to be Surf. He'd hop on his surfboard and ride a wave across the stage, pushing anyone in its wake to the blast zone.

 

[Meta Knight X12]

I always wanted Pikachu's Final Smash to be Surf. He'd hop on his surfboard and ride a wave across the stage, pushing anyone in its wake to the blast zone.

That could work out, I can picture that!

 

[xzx]

Pikachu's design was muuuch better in Brawl and he was cuter in Brawl too.

 

[Z1GMA]

^ Keep playing Brawl, then.

Ledsen att göra dig besviken, men Landorus kommer inte vara med i ssb4.

 

[fogbadge]

im not usually one to care about graphics one way or the other but pikachu is adorable in hd

 

[Neanderthal]

Anyone else notice that Pikachu had a bit of a reduced role in the recently revealed SSB content?
Most of the focus is on Mario, Link and Kirby now with the fourth amigo Pikachu left out.

 

[Teran]

As tradition dictates, Pikachu will be the first character I use in the game, get ready Classic Mode.